MysteriousTelephone

Right, but you do understand that people in their 20s have completely normal relationships, right? I was looking to get me one of those. Or on a base level, have the validation of having someone being attracted to me. You know, the little things. You're saying that women in their 20s aren't ready to settle down, but also that women in their 20s don't like guys who also aren't settling down, and I just don't see how the two are compatible. If you're in the headspace of just going out and having fun, it would not matter if the guys you're interested in are of the same mindset. Similarly, if you're ready to settle down and so are they, that's great! It's only when there's an imbalance there's a problem. Regardless, when a woman rejects me just from the sight of me, she has no indication as to my thoughts on settling down, wether I own a home or not, drive, have or even want kids. It's a rejection at a base level.

Hey MyLolita! Once again, it's not me thinking that I am unattractive, that just seems to be the most realistic answer at this point. If everything else is more-or-less taken care of, what other conclusion can you draw? Regarding your societal thoughts: I do agree with most of what you say, I really do. However, I disagree with this idea that women want nothing to do with men because they're waiting until their 30s to have kids. It's.... well it's just not true. Women date in their teens, they date in their 20s, their 30s, whatever. While most of the women I know have certainly started to have children later in life, they absolutely did not spend their 20s having "no time" for men. It's bizarre to me to watch men and women get together, and un-get together throughout their 20s, and have the reason why nobody wants me to be "Well, women just don't have time for boys in their 20s". It's not that I'm not buying it, it's that it's categorically untrue. Oh absolutely, I've done my best to curate a variety of images that display different things: playing sport, out with friends, in nature, sometimes a photo from a wedding. Absolutely not a boastful person on such platforms.

I don't know where you got the idea that I only approach someone "once in a while", because that's not something I've alluded to. I can't give you hard numbers on the amount of people I approach in a week or month. I will approach more people in a dance social or meet-up event than I will at the gym, for example, though I do still talk to people there. Suffice to say, I do my best to talk to everyone at a dance class, social, or meet-up group. Sure, some people will be males, or women who aren't single, but you don't know that unless you talk to them, right? Of the ones who are single and I feel there's a click, or even if I just think they're fun people, I will do my best to take things further. I have to ask, since you're very interested in hard numbers, exactly how much can I do for it to be counted as 'enough'? Going out socially 4-5 nights a week? Not good enough. Ask out 4-5 people? Double it. Currently renting? Buy a house, you scrub. Like, you must admit this is more effort than 99% of the population has to go through to find someone who thinks they're borderline attractive. Like I've said, I can only speak from my experience. My friends are, verifiably, attractive people who've had no problems getting dates. Even the people I know who are more 'average' looking, have not had this issue either. I've not met, nor spoken to a person who made it into their 20s without having a relationship. This isn't up for debate. I mean, someone who'd had the same problems and got through it, would be nice. So far as I can tell, nobody on this forum has had those issues to this extent, only mentions of a friend or brother in law with similar problems. I don't want to hear from pretty people telling me it's easy, you just need to go out and have fun and it will happen, I get enough of that from my friends. You'd be surprised, a number of people I know find it very difficult to make friends. Either through shyness, less socially aware, or just not really having a 'knack' for it. I've always found it easy, so I find it difficult to relate when they tell me they don't have many friends, which is literally the problem I'm facing when I tell people it's a difficult world when you're ugly. Sure, things have changed as a society, younger people have been given something of an 'extended adolescence': whereas historically you'd be a married homeowner with at least one child and a full-time job at 18, now it's considered normal to stay in education longer, stay a home longer, and put off having children until they've accomplished things they want to do first. Part of it is clearly economical: the cost of raising a child to 18 years is around £200,000, wages have not kept up with inflation meaning home-ownership is very difficult in your 20s without help from parents. We're living in a different world to the ones our parents grew up in. None of that seems to have anything to do with my particular issue, but it's interesting nonetheless. I feel I should clarify: I've not been solely relying on one platform for my self-marketing. I've used all the big hitters: Okcupid, Match, Bumble, Plentyoffish, Hinge, Once, you name it.

Again, I would say so, because I've been able to make friends very easily, from every walk of life, which is something people struggle with. I'm a fairly upbeat person, if I was just throwing out negative energy and making people feel uncomfortable, I don't think I would be that successful in making friends. I do ask good follow-up questions, and my posture is fine. It's not that I'm super against volunteering in community theatre, but like I said, I do believe another regular commitment would cut into the several ones I already have, and something would have to drop. I'm also not terribly interested in volunteering in community theatre, meaning if I did it, it would be to meet a woman, and that's just not a great reason to do volunteering. I have determined those things, yes, yet I still get posts saying "Have you thought about going out and meeting people? Sorry you're introverted, have you thought about not wearing rags?" and it does just feel that people aren't reading my messages at all. Honestly, I didn't know what I expected from posting on here, I guess on some level I hoped to find someone who'd been through this and got out the other side. What I've seen so far, are people who are mostly happy in relationships telling me how easy it is, that all they did was go to a bar. That's great for them, but no help to me. Even the anecdotal stories seem to be along the lines of "Yeah I had a friend who struggled with love, only dated a few times, then he met 'the one' and got married late, at 29." I've literally yet to read in this thread of anyone who has got to the tender age of 30 and never had a girlfriend, or any interest in that department. That's not me saying I've got it so much harder, but it does make me feel unusual if I cannot find another human being who has gone through this experience to this extent.

I really feel like you're trying here, but seem to have not read much of my posts. How do you define me being 'unwilling' to dress up nicely and go to places to meet girls, when it's literally something I've repeatedly mentioned that I do? I would say I'm out socially 4-5 nights out of 7 every week, that's not insignificant or 'unwilling to try'. I do appreciate the game theory that it's just a numbers game if you just keep at it, you used the 'out of 10' example: now picture doing that, consistently, for 12 years and coming up with zero? That's pretty soul crushing. Sure, I'll do my best. I suppose I prefer a more 'rugged' style, loosely inspired by workwear or military. I do my best to showcase my athletic physique, so as we enter the colder months, going out I would opt for a well-fitting sweater with a waffle texture, paired with jeans and a racer leather jacket. I tend towards 'slim' or 'fitted' cuts of clothes, but try to steer clear of 'tight'. In the summer I might go for a fitted polo shirt in navy, in my head I'm cutting a James Bond silhouette. I find darker colours compliment my skin tone, and because I have blue eyes I do have a fair amount of blue/navy in my wardrobe. I don't like clothes with big logos, or t-shirts with pictures or slogans on them, so a lot of my wardrobe is fairly simple. I do get compliments on my clothes a fair bit, though I do wonder if it is genuine, or if people feel the need to pay a compliment so they just pick out something I'm wearing. I would say that women generally have different problems when it comes to dating, that "too much attention" can be as dispiriting as too little. Most women I know generally have at least a few guys just hanging around hoping they will end up with them, and that's it's own problem. I don't believe women are being 'too' picky, because as I've seen, literally everybody else is doing better than me, The Elephant Man got married in his 20s.

I do believe we are at the point where I could literally put up a photo of anyone, and I'd get the cartoonish "There's nothing wrong with you, it must be because you don't drive!", so what's even the point? I assure you, I'm not a troll, I just genuinely cannot understand how I can be some form of 'ok' and still get to 30 without anyone wanting me. I mean... the average cost of maintaining a car is £3,500 in the UK. Even just to get a licence and still not drive, an intensive driving course is about £1,000. For those who need to, earn their money by driving, have a job that requires it, or have family to transport, it's absolutely a necessary spend. Now as I continue to mention, my life in the city allows me to live a full life and not miss out on anything, what need have I, right now, to spend £1K to continue to not drive?

I would disagree, you've been presented with all of the information I have to give, and picked on the one thing I've not done, and held it up as shining example of why I'm single. Imagine if I did drive, what would we be talking out? A partner who can drive may be a positive boon for a lot of people, they do have to go through a lot of information and conversation before that comes up. If you're in a bar or club, chances are nobody is driving home. Do ugly people with cars have to wear certain apparel so that potential partners know from a distance that they are 'proper adults' and can transport a buggy with ease? I mean, I certainly wouldn't call being out socially 5 nights out of 7, mixing with new people to be "sitting and waiting", you can't say I'm not putting the effort in. Yes, I agree that people size each other up very quickly, my point is that many of the qualities you desire are not visible to the naked eye, so devoid of any other information it becomes "hot or not". Outside of maybe wearing a suit or an expensive looking watch, there are very few cues as to someone's financial situation or career prospects. My friends who are IT managers don't dress well, one who is a building-site manager dresses like a builder, but he's on 60K, you wouldn't pass him in a bar and smell money, you'd find that out because you're talking to him because you like the look of him. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that a lot of it doesn't seem to apply to these situations: the unemployed 18 year olds, as well as the 30 year olds living with their parents, are doing better than me. I'm playing by the rules as much as I understand them, then I'm being told it's somehow not enough, despite people who've put a lot less effort in, doing far better. To be clear, while I do have an athletic physique, I'm really not one for selfies, gym or otherwise. I was very careful to pick photos that looked natural and displayed hobbies, such as playing sport or being out with friends. I really don't have many photos of me dancing, at events photographers tend not to take photos of me, choosing the more attractive people instead. I did actually borrow a puppy for a Tinder photo once! A friend had a black lab puppy, so I got a photo with it, looking quite outdoors-y, feeling good. Didn't do anything for my matches: and if a photo with a Labrador puppy can't get you any attention, you need to sit yourself down and ask yourself some questions. Absolutely not, I'm not dependent on anyone. I get myself wherever I need to go, when I moved I hired a moving company, it's literally one step from renting the van. I've never needed to escape the city quickly, but should I feel the need, trains are very regular. About... twice or three times a year there'll be an event that's in the countryside and is a ball-ache to get to if you don't drive, but that would not justify the spend on my part.

That's fair enough, you can only say what is true of your social circle. Like I said, within my circle, it's mostly people with families who drive, the majority of young people with no attachments don't seem to. It's not that I'm against ever learning to drive, it's that I've had no need of it so far. I mean, it's easily said, but how exactly, from a photo, are people judging my social status, career opportunities, health etc? Or across a room in a bar? They literally have no idea if I'm a doctor with an Audi and an 11" schlong, or a drug dealer who lives with his parents. I dress nicely, but I don't go for flashy or expensive logos. I agree entirely that women are looking for a complete package, but the ascertation that they know instantly if I can provide that just from a glance is poppycock. Surely the more obvious answer is that another part of the 'complete package' is 'good looking': If they see a good looking guy, they already know he has one part of the package, and will investigate further to see if the rest of his situation fits the bill. If they can see from a distance that he does not tick the 'good looking' box, they know already he's not the complete package. The reason I believe I am a friendly, fun, social person, is because I have had very little in terms of self doubt, and I've never had a problem making friends very easily, whereas others my age have struggled. Pretty much every activity I've ever done, I've come away with a new friend very quickly, which is fairly unusual for a lot of people. I would argue that if I was not projecting myself as a funny, outgoing person, I would not be able to do so. Yes, I've really had long in-depth conversations with them about it because it's something that's really bothering me, and I really value their opinions as friends. Sadly, because they know me, they know I'm hygenic, not awkward, go out a lot, so they really don't know what to suggest. They've lived their lives in a completely different way to mine, they don't seem to comprehend the scenario of putting yourself out there and having nobody be interested. It's surprisingly common in UK cities for people not to learn to drive, I know enough single people of both genders who don't and it's not been a problem for them. In the long term it's a 'plus', of course, but I almost never get asked if I drive. Not full of excuses at all, I'm certainly finding it difficult to be heard, or at least understood. I say that I'm an outgoing person who's got no problems talking to anyone, and the next reply will be "sorry you've got this anxiety talking to girls, obviously it's not your looks", and it just feels like I'm hitting a brick wall. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the effort people have made here, I just don't think they believe the words that I'm saying, and I am compiling 14 years of experiences into this thread. I have tried a lot of things, and been rejected in a lot of different ways, that's not convenient excuses. Yes, with regards to the cooking classes: My point was that I have no interest in taking a cooking class as I'm happy with my own cooking, so me taking cooking classes would purely be based on finding women, which I think is a bad idea. Also considering I've listed at least three viable regular activities that I do that have a large influx of single women (dancing, meet-up groups, bars & clubs), my issue wasn't that I don't know where to meet women. Would being a more accomplished cook help me in a long term relationship? Absolutely. But it's of zero used to me when I can't even get my foot in the door when I'm turned down just from a photo of my face. Can you imagine my female friends trying to set me up with one of their single friends, and showing them a photo: "Sorry, he doesn't look like my type." "I know, but he makes a lovely Rogan Josh. He can even deliver it for you in his 2003 Ford Focus."

Yes, I would say about half of my close friendships are women, the majority of my friends are couples, so that's just how it falls. I have asked them, discreetly, for some form of help, but as I said, it's just cartoonishly supportive "but there's nothing wrong with you!", which leaves me really very little to improve on. As much as I see these women only as friends, it's painfully obvious if they were single they wouldn't go for me. As for your question: It's a tricky one. At social swing events, it's completely normal to ask anyone to dance, even if you're there with your spouse and so are they, there's really nothing in it, it's just for the love of dancing. Okay, so this was a wedding but the social circle was full of people who dance, I don't think the woman was in the wrong to ask your husband to dance if she knew him and knew he danced. That would be on him to explain he's taking care of his pregnant wife, and would dance with her later. As for my classes; there's a mix. There are some older couples looking for something to do, there are experienced dancers who are new in town and just looking to dance, there are young single people. The young single people, the ones who really get taken with the scene, start to want a partner who can dance, as they'll already enjoy the scene and going to the social events, as well as learning more advanced things together. So it's surprisingly common for single women to start asking around to see who's available. I'm glad that you 'recommended dancing as a way to meet people', but since it's literally something I said in my opening post that I've been doing for nearly 10 years, I've got that part covered! Wait... so your plan is for me to learn to drive, and then... not get a car? I'm not playing dumb here, I don't understand how this is supposed to help anything. If I'm still walking/cycling/taking transportation to places, should I get a badge or a t-shirt to assure women that I do in fact possess a driver's licence? Again, I don't have anxiety meeting or talking to people, I'm very social, that's not the issue I'm having. Sort of! Of course there are core regulars in classes and social events, but being a big city we do get a high turnover of new young people; either students, or people coming over for work who are looking for a hobby. Not all stay on, of course, but as an opportunity to meet young single people, it's pretty golden. Again, I'm not against bars and nightlife, as I've said I do go out most weekends to bars & clubs, my comment was that it's less fruitful if you're an unattractive person. I go with friends, and we have a good time talking, dancing etc, but usually the single ones end up pulling and I'm just dancing with my friends the entire night. That's not an awful thing, I'll say, but I'm just pointing out that it really is a different experience to ones you may have had. Honestly I don't believe my attitude is the issue, purely because for the majority of my life I am a positive person, and I've had no issues making new friends. If my attitude was awful, I don't think I would have succeeded in that are quite so well. I have also pointed out, several times, that I am frequently rejected just from a visual perspective, without chance for my attitude to help or hinder me. When women in the club say "he's ugly!", they aren't talking about my mental headspace, they are referring to my physically. Yes, before you ask, I stand up straight, make eye contact with people. This may be a cultural thing, but in the UK it's not really that common to 'pick up' your date, women don't tend to give out their home addresses, nearly all of the time you meet your date at the bar or venue. I've lived in a city on my own since I was 18, I've had no issue with independence, it's just a culture where a lot of people don't drive. Again, I think this is a culture thing. In big cities in the UK, it's incredibly common for people to never learn how to drive. The ones that do, usually do it either for work or because they need to transport their families. I don't get asked if I can drive, so I cannot see how it is being held against me. Wow, super salty I didn't get around to watching a YouTube video? That's not deliberate, I assure you, I really am doing my best to reply to everyone and make sure I address their specific points, I get yelled at if I don't. Perhaps if you write anything you need to say, rather than asking me to watch a video, you'll get a better response. I do like Jordan Peterson, though I don't feel he's talking to me in this video. I don't feel angry at women, afraid of talking to them, or feel I'm only taking to women who are 'out of my league'. I do feel this talk is aimed more at the men who aren't very social, don't dress nicely, can't talk to girls, live with their parents etc. Sure, I agree, he's not wrong, those are things you need to work on if you expect to get anywhere. My question is: what do you do if you're doing all of those things, and still getting nowhere?

The thing is, I'm not a bad cook, I cook for myself every day. Like most single people I may rotate between 5-6 meals, but I always use fresh ingredients and don't survive on microwave meals and frozen pizzas. I really feel no 'need' to take a cooking class, so I would be taking a cooking class entirely to meet women. I feel that's definitely the wrong approach, because if it didn't happen I'd be annoyed, and I wouldn't reap the benefits as it's something I'm fairly capable of. There is also the aspect of time: between work, gym (3-4 times a week), dancing (usually twice), seeing friends, and also having a night to myself, I really don't believe I would have the time to take up a completely new hobby. Something would have to give, either taking a back step on fitness or on dancing, and those are both things I'm passionate about. If I spent every evening and weekend sat in front of a computer, I'd have to agree with you, but 5 nights out of 7 I'm out of my house doing something social. No, these are not my friends suggestions, those were the list of suggestions from this thread. Living in the city, I really wouldn't drive that much, it is just too inconvenient, I would say about half the people my age do not drive, the ones that do are because they have families to transport or jobs that do not require it. I would be working harder, paying out thousands, for a car I really would not use. I never said my clothes were outdated, nor have any of my friends, that's just been a suggestion posted in this thread from people who've never seen me. I'm sorry, I'm going to have to ask... how would you say going to see a doctor would be relevant in this situation? As much I really appreciate the time you've taken to write this, it really does feel like you're not listening, or reading my responses. I continue to mention that I'm groomed, hygenic, I dress to compliment my features, these are all things I have been doing since I was 18. As much as you can't see me and these are basic things to suggest, I need you to believe me when I say I have got those bases covered. Again, I'm seeing you talk about 'doubt' and 'fear', when I approach women, when I've mentioned none of that: I don't have such doubts or fears, that's really not my issue. As I continue to say; I am out where single women are, quite a lot of the time. Swing dancing in particular is an environment where women my age often come to meet guys, because partners rotate in classes, it's a great environment to go something physical with a stranger whilst also showcasing something I'm good at. I also do go out to bars & clubs, that's not a problem. I also chat to people and make friends in my gym. Like I've said earlier, if I spent my evenings and weekends sat in front of a computer then I'd have to change something, but if most nights of the week I'm out doing something social, I don't know what to do. I'm glad that you did ok for attention as a hot cocktail waitress, but it's just not the same experience for ugly dudes, so the suggestion of just "go to a bar and you'll meet someone" definitely comes from your world experience, not mine.

Okay, I'm going to pre-face this and say that though I did read all of the replies since I last logged in, I'm not going to reply to every person, since many are talking to each other. If anyone has a direct question for me, please quote me here and I'll get back to you on this forum. I really do appreciate people taking time out of their day on this one, even if we don't see eye-to-eye on a lot of things. I mean, it should go without saying that your first relationship is a milestone of becoming an adult, either successful or otherwise. Literal 14 year olds can just exist and fall into relationships (with other 14 year olds, I hasten to add), though when I come on here and am awfully concerned that being in my 30s, and treated as an ugly person, makes this difficult, I am told it's: because I don't drive, because I don't own my own place, that I'm trying too hard, that I'm not trying hard enough, that I'm too negative, that I need to take cooking classes, overhaul my wardrobe and also find time to ask out 100 women on the street. I mean, just to clarify, your average teenager has none of those things, so you can imagine my frustration when verifiably they are doing better than me romantically. And it's not an 'elite' select few, most people have a relationship before they're 20. Again, I really don't want you to think I'm being very picky and only expressing interest in 'select' women; some of the women I've liked, my friends didn't really see it, they have been all shapes and sizes. If I had a specific thing I could change via surgery, I would probably consider being in debt for the rest of my life in order to correct it. Sadly I'm unable to pin it down to anything specific. I'm sure if I went for a consultation, the surgeon would sign me up for a whole list of options, but then that surgeon has an interest in my custom. I don't have a huge nose, or wrinkles, eyebrows are fine, I have a chin. There's really no obvious single thing that I can ascertain is holding me back, all I know is that they don't like what they see. Sure, and I've never said I approach women from cold: usually there is a shared activity, or a friend that introduces us to find common ground. Though I'm not against asking women out from a completely cold approach: as you've said, that's a strategy that doesn't favour the "aesthetically challenged". Really, every experience I've listed in this thread has been completely true. I realise it can come across as 'vague' to you because I'm talking about people that you don't know, but I really have nothing to gain by telling you the many ways I've been told I'm unattractive, both directly and indirectly. If you have a question about anything I've said, please ask, I'd rather set the record straight than have anyone just assume something. Yes, my friends do not believe me when I tell them the stories I've told you, because they've lived very different lives. I've no idea how I fell into having groups of attractive friends, I certainly didn't pick them that way, it's just the way things have fallen. Though I'm uncomfortable showing a photo of myself, I could link a few photos of my extremely photogenic friends and you'd say "Yeah.... I get it." I don't believe that I'm the "only" ugly person, just that I am one, and I really don't know what more I can do about it. I know other ugly people are out there, and I know even they're doing better than me romantically. But when I feel I'm doing ok on every other front that I can, I generally do feel out of options.

I do have to question the idea that the majority of the population finds a relationship in their teen years, but I specifically have to wait for "my time" because.... reasons?

Counter-point: google a photo of Mike Tyson at 17. He's just a different breed of human being. My whole class generally just looked like tall children at that age, dude is something else. Same goes for Dwayne Johnson at 17, Mark Wahlberg, or Arnie. Some people are just built different. It's like if you had to explain all the animals on Earth to an alien, and you pointed out a chihuahua and a wolf and said to the alien "Yo, they're the same species." the alien wouldn't believe you.

I mean... isn't "doesn't photograph well" just code for "ugly but with a good personality"? By definition, cameras don't capture what isn't there. We all think we're slightly better looking than we really are, and think it must be just a bad photo. I remember reading about a study done in Cambridge, where people were shown 11 versions of the same photo of themselves: 1 unedited, 5 edited to look 'slightly better' and 5 edited to look 'slightly worse', and asked them to pick the one they thought was real. The majority picked one that was slightly edited to flatter them; we literally can't pick ourselves out from a lineup. Honestly? I really have no idea, I guess I wasn't looking for an immediate solution from this, more to share my experience and hopefully speak to someone who'd been through the same. I've yet to talk to anyone who's gone this long without any romantic encounter, on here it's mostly been people who know someone else who went through something.

Right, but you must understand that these conversations we're having in this thread are, bizarrely unique, and are not indicative of the conversations I have with anyone else, particularly people I don't know. I do honestly believe I give an outgoing, confident vibe. Wether it's dancing, fitness, photography, I'm usually doing something I'm good at and confident doing. I'm generally a happy-go-lucky individual, it is a recent phenomenon that I'm beginning to feel this way. I would say that, if I did not give off a positive vibe, I would not find making friends so easy, which is not the case: I genuinely pick up friends very easily from every walk of life, such as dancing, my gym, social events etc. If I really struggled with friendships, then I would absolutely have to take up the idea that I was giving off a negative vibe. I mean... literally what else is there? If everything else that can be improved, has been, what's left? People are not seeing a profile photo, and turning me down based on my job, religion, class, or literally anything else. When all they know about you is "you look like this" and they say hell no, what other conclusion is there to make? You're circling back to "must be your attitude", and totally ignoring the examples I give when I'm turned down just from a visual perspective, without even getting a chance for my attitude to get in my way. I really tried my best in my opening post to explain my situation clearly, that I meet plenty of people, that I'm confident in talking to people and make friends easily, yet the helpful responses just roll off the usual "sorry you're not that confident talking to women" and "well, have you tried meeting more people?", it's literally like they didn't read it. Yes, this is a fairly negative conversation, largely because I'm having to explain all the various ways I've reached the conclusion that I'm not attractive, only to have strangers say "oh no, you're not ugly, there must be some other reason!" which isn't at all helpful when you've not lived this life, and generally ignore all the examples presented to you. It's not that I think 'all' other men are handsome, I realise that the average guy has never had this issue. If so, can I really call myself 'average'? If you can get to 30 without anybody wanting to date you or find you attractive, can you really with a serious face call yourself 'average'? By definition, that's "below average". Even then, the Elephant Man got married in his 20s, my love life is verifiably worse than the Elephant Man. Yes, that's happened quite a few times. I've often had the "I'm just happy being single, I don't want to be with anyone" brush off, only to have that person appear within a couple of weeks with an attractive person. Maybe in some cases they were already interested in that person and were waiting, maybe in other cases they met them afterwards? Who's to say? I can honestly say I've never been turned down by someone, only for them to go for an unattractive person. Pretty much. I mean it's a comical exaggeration on your part to jump to "oh so you must be friends with models!" but really, the majority of my friends are very conventionally attractive people: happily married but still get hit on regularly (both sexes), always get photographed at events, a couple did some model work in their 20s. I'm sure they have had many obstacles to overcome over the years that I know nothing about and could not comprehend, but likewise when I tell them it's a hard world out there when you're treated as ugly, they just don't understand it.