MysteriousTelephone

Right, but you do understand that people in their 20s have completely normal relationships, right? I was looking to get me one of those. Or on a base level, have the validation of having someone being attracted to me. You know, the little things. You're saying that women in their 20s aren't ready to settle down, but also that women in their 20s don't like guys who also aren't settling down, and I just don't see how the two are compatible. If you're in the headspace of just going out and having fun, it would not matter if the guys you're interested in are of the same mindset. Similarly, if you're ready to settle down and so are they, that's great! It's only when there's an imbalance there's a problem. Regardless, when a woman rejects me just from the sight of me, she has no indication as to my thoughts on settling down, wether I own a home or not, drive, have or even want kids. It's a rejection at a base level.

Hey MyLolita! Once again, it's not me thinking that I am unattractive, that just seems to be the most realistic answer at this point. If everything else is more-or-less taken care of, what other conclusion can you draw? Regarding your societal thoughts: I do agree with most of what you say, I really do. However, I disagree with this idea that women want nothing to do with men because they're waiting until their 30s to have kids. It's.... well it's just not true. Women date in their teens, they date in their 20s, their 30s, whatever. While most of the women I know have certainly started to have children later in life, they absolutely did not spend their 20s having "no time" for men. It's bizarre to me to watch men and women get together, and un-get together throughout their 20s, and have the reason why nobody wants me to be "Well, women just don't have time for boys in their 20s". It's not that I'm not buying it, it's that it's categorically untrue. Oh absolutely, I've done my best to curate a variety of images that display different things: playing sport, out with friends, in nature, sometimes a photo from a wedding. Absolutely not a boastful person on such platforms.

I don't know where you got the idea that I only approach someone "once in a while", because that's not something I've alluded to. I can't give you hard numbers on the amount of people I approach in a week or month. I will approach more people in a dance social or meet-up event than I will at the gym, for example, though I do still talk to people there. Suffice to say, I do my best to talk to everyone at a dance class, social, or meet-up group. Sure, some people will be males, or women who aren't single, but you don't know that unless you talk to them, right? Of the ones who are single and I feel there's a click, or even if I just think they're fun people, I will do my best to take things further. I have to ask, since you're very interested in hard numbers, exactly how much can I do for it to be counted as 'enough'? Going out socially 4-5 nights a week? Not good enough. Ask out 4-5 people? Double it. Currently renting? Buy a house, you scrub. Like, you must admit this is more effort than 99% of the population has to go through to find someone who thinks they're borderline attractive. Like I've said, I can only speak from my experience. My friends are, verifiably, attractive people who've had no problems getting dates. Even the people I know who are more 'average' looking, have not had this issue either. I've not met, nor spoken to a person who made it into their 20s without having a relationship. This isn't up for debate. I mean, someone who'd had the same problems and got through it, would be nice. So far as I can tell, nobody on this forum has had those issues to this extent, only mentions of a friend or brother in law with similar problems. I don't want to hear from pretty people telling me it's easy, you just need to go out and have fun and it will happen, I get enough of that from my friends. You'd be surprised, a number of people I know find it very difficult to make friends. Either through shyness, less socially aware, or just not really having a 'knack' for it. I've always found it easy, so I find it difficult to relate when they tell me they don't have many friends, which is literally the problem I'm facing when I tell people it's a difficult world when you're ugly. Sure, things have changed as a society, younger people have been given something of an 'extended adolescence': whereas historically you'd be a married homeowner with at least one child and a full-time job at 18, now it's considered normal to stay in education longer, stay a home longer, and put off having children until they've accomplished things they want to do first. Part of it is clearly economical: the cost of raising a child to 18 years is around £200,000, wages have not kept up with inflation meaning home-ownership is very difficult in your 20s without help from parents. We're living in a different world to the ones our parents grew up in. None of that seems to have anything to do with my particular issue, but it's interesting nonetheless. I feel I should clarify: I've not been solely relying on one platform for my self-marketing. I've used all the big hitters: Okcupid, Match, Bumble, Plentyoffish, Hinge, Once, you name it.

Again, I would say so, because I've been able to make friends very easily, from every walk of life, which is something people struggle with. I'm a fairly upbeat person, if I was just throwing out negative energy and making people feel uncomfortable, I don't think I would be that successful in making friends. I do ask good follow-up questions, and my posture is fine. It's not that I'm super against volunteering in community theatre, but like I said, I do believe another regular commitment would cut into the several ones I already have, and something would have to drop. I'm also not terribly interested in volunteering in community theatre, meaning if I did it, it would be to meet a woman, and that's just not a great reason to do volunteering. I have determined those things, yes, yet I still get posts saying "Have you thought about going out and meeting people? Sorry you're introverted, have you thought about not wearing rags?" and it does just feel that people aren't reading my messages at all. Honestly, I didn't know what I expected from posting on here, I guess on some level I hoped to find someone who'd been through this and got out the other side. What I've seen so far, are people who are mostly happy in relationships telling me how easy it is, that all they did was go to a bar. That's great for them, but no help to me. Even the anecdotal stories seem to be along the lines of "Yeah I had a friend who struggled with love, only dated a few times, then he met 'the one' and got married late, at 29." I've literally yet to read in this thread of anyone who has got to the tender age of 30 and never had a girlfriend, or any interest in that department. That's not me saying I've got it so much harder, but it does make me feel unusual if I cannot find another human being who has gone through this experience to this extent.

I really feel like you're trying here, but seem to have not read much of my posts. How do you define me being 'unwilling' to dress up nicely and go to places to meet girls, when it's literally something I've repeatedly mentioned that I do? I would say I'm out socially 4-5 nights out of 7 every week, that's not insignificant or 'unwilling to try'. I do appreciate the game theory that it's just a numbers game if you just keep at it, you used the 'out of 10' example: now picture doing that, consistently, for 12 years and coming up with zero? That's pretty soul crushing. Sure, I'll do my best. I suppose I prefer a more 'rugged' style, loosely inspired by workwear or military. I do my best to showcase my athletic physique, so as we enter the colder months, going out I would opt for a well-fitting sweater with a waffle texture, paired with jeans and a racer leather jacket. I tend towards 'slim' or 'fitted' cuts of clothes, but try to steer clear of 'tight'. In the summer I might go for a fitted polo shirt in navy, in my head I'm cutting a James Bond silhouette. I find darker colours compliment my skin tone, and because I have blue eyes I do have a fair amount of blue/navy in my wardrobe. I don't like clothes with big logos, or t-shirts with pictures or slogans on them, so a lot of my wardrobe is fairly simple. I do get compliments on my clothes a fair bit, though I do wonder if it is genuine, or if people feel the need to pay a compliment so they just pick out something I'm wearing. I would say that women generally have different problems when it comes to dating, that "too much attention" can be as dispiriting as too little. Most women I know generally have at least a few guys just hanging around hoping they will end up with them, and that's it's own problem. I don't believe women are being 'too' picky, because as I've seen, literally everybody else is doing better than me, The Elephant Man got married in his 20s.

I do believe we are at the point where I could literally put up a photo of anyone, and I'd get the cartoonish "There's nothing wrong with you, it must be because you don't drive!", so what's even the point? I assure you, I'm not a troll, I just genuinely cannot understand how I can be some form of 'ok' and still get to 30 without anyone wanting me. I mean... the average cost of maintaining a car is £3,500 in the UK. Even just to get a licence and still not drive, an intensive driving course is about £1,000. For those who need to, earn their money by driving, have a job that requires it, or have family to transport, it's absolutely a necessary spend. Now as I continue to mention, my life in the city allows me to live a full life and not miss out on anything, what need have I, right now, to spend £1K to continue to not drive?

I would disagree, you've been presented with all of the information I have to give, and picked on the one thing I've not done, and held it up as shining example of why I'm single. Imagine if I did drive, what would we be talking out? A partner who can drive may be a positive boon for a lot of people, they do have to go through a lot of information and conversation before that comes up. If you're in a bar or club, chances are nobody is driving home. Do ugly people with cars have to wear certain apparel so that potential partners know from a distance that they are 'proper adults' and can transport a buggy with ease? I mean, I certainly wouldn't call being out socially 5 nights out of 7, mixing with new people to be "sitting and waiting", you can't say I'm not putting the effort in. Yes, I agree that people size each other up very quickly, my point is that many of the qualities you desire are not visible to the naked eye, so devoid of any other information it becomes "hot or not". Outside of maybe wearing a suit or an expensive looking watch, there are very few cues as to someone's financial situation or career prospects. My friends who are IT managers don't dress well, one who is a building-site manager dresses like a builder, but he's on 60K, you wouldn't pass him in a bar and smell money, you'd find that out because you're talking to him because you like the look of him. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that a lot of it doesn't seem to apply to these situations: the unemployed 18 year olds, as well as the 30 year olds living with their parents, are doing better than me. I'm playing by the rules as much as I understand them, then I'm being told it's somehow not enough, despite people who've put a lot less effort in, doing far better. To be clear, while I do have an athletic physique, I'm really not one for selfies, gym or otherwise. I was very careful to pick photos that looked natural and displayed hobbies, such as playing sport or being out with friends. I really don't have many photos of me dancing, at events photographers tend not to take photos of me, choosing the more attractive people instead. I did actually borrow a puppy for a Tinder photo once! A friend had a black lab puppy, so I got a photo with it, looking quite outdoors-y, feeling good. Didn't do anything for my matches: and if a photo with a Labrador puppy can't get you any attention, you need to sit yourself down and ask yourself some questions. Absolutely not, I'm not dependent on anyone. I get myself wherever I need to go, when I moved I hired a moving company, it's literally one step from renting the van. I've never needed to escape the city quickly, but should I feel the need, trains are very regular. About... twice or three times a year there'll be an event that's in the countryside and is a ball-ache to get to if you don't drive, but that would not justify the spend on my part.

That's fair enough, you can only say what is true of your social circle. Like I said, within my circle, it's mostly people with families who drive, the majority of young people with no attachments don't seem to. It's not that I'm against ever learning to drive, it's that I've had no need of it so far. I mean, it's easily said, but how exactly, from a photo, are people judging my social status, career opportunities, health etc? Or across a room in a bar? They literally have no idea if I'm a doctor with an Audi and an 11" schlong, or a drug dealer who lives with his parents. I dress nicely, but I don't go for flashy or expensive logos. I agree entirely that women are looking for a complete package, but the ascertation that they know instantly if I can provide that just from a glance is poppycock. Surely the more obvious answer is that another part of the 'complete package' is 'good looking': If they see a good looking guy, they already know he has one part of the package, and will investigate further to see if the rest of his situation fits the bill. If they can see from a distance that he does not tick the 'good looking' box, they know already he's not the complete package. The reason I believe I am a friendly, fun, social person, is because I have had very little in terms of self doubt, and I've never had a problem making friends very easily, whereas others my age have struggled. Pretty much every activity I've ever done, I've come away with a new friend very quickly, which is fairly unusual for a lot of people. I would argue that if I was not projecting myself as a funny, outgoing person, I would not be able to do so. Yes, I've really had long in-depth conversations with them about it because it's something that's really bothering me, and I really value their opinions as friends. Sadly, because they know me, they know I'm hygenic, not awkward, go out a lot, so they really don't know what to suggest. They've lived their lives in a completely different way to mine, they don't seem to comprehend the scenario of putting yourself out there and having nobody be interested. It's surprisingly common in UK cities for people not to learn to drive, I know enough single people of both genders who don't and it's not been a problem for them. In the long term it's a 'plus', of course, but I almost never get asked if I drive. Not full of excuses at all, I'm certainly finding it difficult to be heard, or at least understood. I say that I'm an outgoing person who's got no problems talking to anyone, and the next reply will be "sorry you've got this anxiety talking to girls, obviously it's not your looks", and it just feels like I'm hitting a brick wall. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the effort people have made here, I just don't think they believe the words that I'm saying, and I am compiling 14 years of experiences into this thread. I have tried a lot of things, and been rejected in a lot of different ways, that's not convenient excuses. Yes, with regards to the cooking classes: My point was that I have no interest in taking a cooking class as I'm happy with my own cooking, so me taking cooking classes would purely be based on finding women, which I think is a bad idea. Also considering I've listed at least three viable regular activities that I do that have a large influx of single women (dancing, meet-up groups, bars & clubs), my issue wasn't that I don't know where to meet women. Would being a more accomplished cook help me in a long term relationship? Absolutely. But it's of zero used to me when I can't even get my foot in the door when I'm turned down just from a photo of my face. Can you imagine my female friends trying to set me up with one of their single friends, and showing them a photo: "Sorry, he doesn't look like my type." "I know, but he makes a lovely Rogan Josh. He can even deliver it for you in his 2003 Ford Focus."

Yes, I would say about half of my close friendships are women, the majority of my friends are couples, so that's just how it falls. I have asked them, discreetly, for some form of help, but as I said, it's just cartoonishly supportive "but there's nothing wrong with you!", which leaves me really very little to improve on. As much as I see these women only as friends, it's painfully obvious if they were single they wouldn't go for me. As for your question: It's a tricky one. At social swing events, it's completely normal to ask anyone to dance, even if you're there with your spouse and so are they, there's really nothing in it, it's just for the love of dancing. Okay, so this was a wedding but the social circle was full of people who dance, I don't think the woman was in the wrong to ask your husband to dance if she knew him and knew he danced. That would be on him to explain he's taking care of his pregnant wife, and would dance with her later. As for my classes; there's a mix. There are some older couples looking for something to do, there are experienced dancers who are new in town and just looking to dance, there are young single people. The young single people, the ones who really get taken with the scene, start to want a partner who can dance, as they'll already enjoy the scene and going to the social events, as well as learning more advanced things together. So it's surprisingly common for single women to start asking around to see who's available. I'm glad that you 'recommended dancing as a way to meet people', but since it's literally something I said in my opening post that I've been doing for nearly 10 years, I've got that part covered! Wait... so your plan is for me to learn to drive, and then... not get a car? I'm not playing dumb here, I don't understand how this is supposed to help anything. If I'm still walking/cycling/taking transportation to places, should I get a badge or a t-shirt to assure women that I do in fact possess a driver's licence? Again, I don't have anxiety meeting or talking to people, I'm very social, that's not the issue I'm having. Sort of! Of course there are core regulars in classes and social events, but being a big city we do get a high turnover of new young people; either students, or people coming over for work who are looking for a hobby. Not all stay on, of course, but as an opportunity to meet young single people, it's pretty golden. Again, I'm not against bars and nightlife, as I've said I do go out most weekends to bars & clubs, my comment was that it's less fruitful if you're an unattractive person. I go with friends, and we have a good time talking, dancing etc, but usually the single ones end up pulling and I'm just dancing with my friends the entire night. That's not an awful thing, I'll say, but I'm just pointing out that it really is a different experience to ones you may have had. Honestly I don't believe my attitude is the issue, purely because for the majority of my life I am a positive person, and I've had no issues making new friends. If my attitude was awful, I don't think I would have succeeded in that are quite so well. I have also pointed out, several times, that I am frequently rejected just from a visual perspective, without chance for my attitude to help or hinder me. When women in the club say "he's ugly!", they aren't talking about my mental headspace, they are referring to my physically. Yes, before you ask, I stand up straight, make eye contact with people. This may be a cultural thing, but in the UK it's not really that common to 'pick up' your date, women don't tend to give out their home addresses, nearly all of the time you meet your date at the bar or venue. I've lived in a city on my own since I was 18, I've had no issue with independence, it's just a culture where a lot of people don't drive. Again, I think this is a culture thing. In big cities in the UK, it's incredibly common for people to never learn how to drive. The ones that do, usually do it either for work or because they need to transport their families. I don't get asked if I can drive, so I cannot see how it is being held against me. Wow, super salty I didn't get around to watching a YouTube video? That's not deliberate, I assure you, I really am doing my best to reply to everyone and make sure I address their specific points, I get yelled at if I don't. Perhaps if you write anything you need to say, rather than asking me to watch a video, you'll get a better response. I do like Jordan Peterson, though I don't feel he's talking to me in this video. I don't feel angry at women, afraid of talking to them, or feel I'm only taking to women who are 'out of my league'. I do feel this talk is aimed more at the men who aren't very social, don't dress nicely, can't talk to girls, live with their parents etc. Sure, I agree, he's not wrong, those are things you need to work on if you expect to get anywhere. My question is: what do you do if you're doing all of those things, and still getting nowhere?

The thing is, I'm not a bad cook, I cook for myself every day. Like most single people I may rotate between 5-6 meals, but I always use fresh ingredients and don't survive on microwave meals and frozen pizzas. I really feel no 'need' to take a cooking class, so I would be taking a cooking class entirely to meet women. I feel that's definitely the wrong approach, because if it didn't happen I'd be annoyed, and I wouldn't reap the benefits as it's something I'm fairly capable of. There is also the aspect of time: between work, gym (3-4 times a week), dancing (usually twice), seeing friends, and also having a night to myself, I really don't believe I would have the time to take up a completely new hobby. Something would have to give, either taking a back step on fitness or on dancing, and those are both things I'm passionate about. If I spent every evening and weekend sat in front of a computer, I'd have to agree with you, but 5 nights out of 7 I'm out of my house doing something social. No, these are not my friends suggestions, those were the list of suggestions from this thread. Living in the city, I really wouldn't drive that much, it is just too inconvenient, I would say about half the people my age do not drive, the ones that do are because they have families to transport or jobs that do not require it. I would be working harder, paying out thousands, for a car I really would not use. I never said my clothes were outdated, nor have any of my friends, that's just been a suggestion posted in this thread from people who've never seen me. I'm sorry, I'm going to have to ask... how would you say going to see a doctor would be relevant in this situation? As much I really appreciate the time you've taken to write this, it really does feel like you're not listening, or reading my responses. I continue to mention that I'm groomed, hygenic, I dress to compliment my features, these are all things I have been doing since I was 18. As much as you can't see me and these are basic things to suggest, I need you to believe me when I say I have got those bases covered. Again, I'm seeing you talk about 'doubt' and 'fear', when I approach women, when I've mentioned none of that: I don't have such doubts or fears, that's really not my issue. As I continue to say; I am out where single women are, quite a lot of the time. Swing dancing in particular is an environment where women my age often come to meet guys, because partners rotate in classes, it's a great environment to go something physical with a stranger whilst also showcasing something I'm good at. I also do go out to bars & clubs, that's not a problem. I also chat to people and make friends in my gym. Like I've said earlier, if I spent my evenings and weekends sat in front of a computer then I'd have to change something, but if most nights of the week I'm out doing something social, I don't know what to do. I'm glad that you did ok for attention as a hot cocktail waitress, but it's just not the same experience for ugly dudes, so the suggestion of just "go to a bar and you'll meet someone" definitely comes from your world experience, not mine.

Okay, I'm going to pre-face this and say that though I did read all of the replies since I last logged in, I'm not going to reply to every person, since many are talking to each other. If anyone has a direct question for me, please quote me here and I'll get back to you on this forum. I really do appreciate people taking time out of their day on this one, even if we don't see eye-to-eye on a lot of things. I mean, it should go without saying that your first relationship is a milestone of becoming an adult, either successful or otherwise. Literal 14 year olds can just exist and fall into relationships (with other 14 year olds, I hasten to add), though when I come on here and am awfully concerned that being in my 30s, and treated as an ugly person, makes this difficult, I am told it's: because I don't drive, because I don't own my own place, that I'm trying too hard, that I'm not trying hard enough, that I'm too negative, that I need to take cooking classes, overhaul my wardrobe and also find time to ask out 100 women on the street. I mean, just to clarify, your average teenager has none of those things, so you can imagine my frustration when verifiably they are doing better than me romantically. And it's not an 'elite' select few, most people have a relationship before they're 20. Again, I really don't want you to think I'm being very picky and only expressing interest in 'select' women; some of the women I've liked, my friends didn't really see it, they have been all shapes and sizes. If I had a specific thing I could change via surgery, I would probably consider being in debt for the rest of my life in order to correct it. Sadly I'm unable to pin it down to anything specific. I'm sure if I went for a consultation, the surgeon would sign me up for a whole list of options, but then that surgeon has an interest in my custom. I don't have a huge nose, or wrinkles, eyebrows are fine, I have a chin. There's really no obvious single thing that I can ascertain is holding me back, all I know is that they don't like what they see. Sure, and I've never said I approach women from cold: usually there is a shared activity, or a friend that introduces us to find common ground. Though I'm not against asking women out from a completely cold approach: as you've said, that's a strategy that doesn't favour the "aesthetically challenged". Really, every experience I've listed in this thread has been completely true. I realise it can come across as 'vague' to you because I'm talking about people that you don't know, but I really have nothing to gain by telling you the many ways I've been told I'm unattractive, both directly and indirectly. If you have a question about anything I've said, please ask, I'd rather set the record straight than have anyone just assume something. Yes, my friends do not believe me when I tell them the stories I've told you, because they've lived very different lives. I've no idea how I fell into having groups of attractive friends, I certainly didn't pick them that way, it's just the way things have fallen. Though I'm uncomfortable showing a photo of myself, I could link a few photos of my extremely photogenic friends and you'd say "Yeah.... I get it." I don't believe that I'm the "only" ugly person, just that I am one, and I really don't know what more I can do about it. I know other ugly people are out there, and I know even they're doing better than me romantically. But when I feel I'm doing ok on every other front that I can, I generally do feel out of options.

I do have to question the idea that the majority of the population finds a relationship in their teen years, but I specifically have to wait for "my time" because.... reasons?

Counter-point: google a photo of Mike Tyson at 17. He's just a different breed of human being. My whole class generally just looked like tall children at that age, dude is something else. Same goes for Dwayne Johnson at 17, Mark Wahlberg, or Arnie. Some people are just built different. It's like if you had to explain all the animals on Earth to an alien, and you pointed out a chihuahua and a wolf and said to the alien "Yo, they're the same species." the alien wouldn't believe you.

I mean... isn't "doesn't photograph well" just code for "ugly but with a good personality"? By definition, cameras don't capture what isn't there. We all think we're slightly better looking than we really are, and think it must be just a bad photo. I remember reading about a study done in Cambridge, where people were shown 11 versions of the same photo of themselves: 1 unedited, 5 edited to look 'slightly better' and 5 edited to look 'slightly worse', and asked them to pick the one they thought was real. The majority picked one that was slightly edited to flatter them; we literally can't pick ourselves out from a lineup. Honestly? I really have no idea, I guess I wasn't looking for an immediate solution from this, more to share my experience and hopefully speak to someone who'd been through the same. I've yet to talk to anyone who's gone this long without any romantic encounter, on here it's mostly been people who know someone else who went through something.

Right, but you must understand that these conversations we're having in this thread are, bizarrely unique, and are not indicative of the conversations I have with anyone else, particularly people I don't know. I do honestly believe I give an outgoing, confident vibe. Wether it's dancing, fitness, photography, I'm usually doing something I'm good at and confident doing. I'm generally a happy-go-lucky individual, it is a recent phenomenon that I'm beginning to feel this way. I would say that, if I did not give off a positive vibe, I would not find making friends so easy, which is not the case: I genuinely pick up friends very easily from every walk of life, such as dancing, my gym, social events etc. If I really struggled with friendships, then I would absolutely have to take up the idea that I was giving off a negative vibe. I mean... literally what else is there? If everything else that can be improved, has been, what's left? People are not seeing a profile photo, and turning me down based on my job, religion, class, or literally anything else. When all they know about you is "you look like this" and they say hell no, what other conclusion is there to make? You're circling back to "must be your attitude", and totally ignoring the examples I give when I'm turned down just from a visual perspective, without even getting a chance for my attitude to get in my way. I really tried my best in my opening post to explain my situation clearly, that I meet plenty of people, that I'm confident in talking to people and make friends easily, yet the helpful responses just roll off the usual "sorry you're not that confident talking to women" and "well, have you tried meeting more people?", it's literally like they didn't read it. Yes, this is a fairly negative conversation, largely because I'm having to explain all the various ways I've reached the conclusion that I'm not attractive, only to have strangers say "oh no, you're not ugly, there must be some other reason!" which isn't at all helpful when you've not lived this life, and generally ignore all the examples presented to you. It's not that I think 'all' other men are handsome, I realise that the average guy has never had this issue. If so, can I really call myself 'average'? If you can get to 30 without anybody wanting to date you or find you attractive, can you really with a serious face call yourself 'average'? By definition, that's "below average". Even then, the Elephant Man got married in his 20s, my love life is verifiably worse than the Elephant Man. Yes, that's happened quite a few times. I've often had the "I'm just happy being single, I don't want to be with anyone" brush off, only to have that person appear within a couple of weeks with an attractive person. Maybe in some cases they were already interested in that person and were waiting, maybe in other cases they met them afterwards? Who's to say? I can honestly say I've never been turned down by someone, only for them to go for an unattractive person. Pretty much. I mean it's a comical exaggeration on your part to jump to "oh so you must be friends with models!" but really, the majority of my friends are very conventionally attractive people: happily married but still get hit on regularly (both sexes), always get photographed at events, a couple did some model work in their 20s. I'm sure they have had many obstacles to overcome over the years that I know nothing about and could not comprehend, but likewise when I tell them it's a hard world out there when you're treated as ugly, they just don't understand it.

Sorry guys, been away for a few days! I'm really surprised to hear your speed dating story! Such is the dynamics of dating, I would always expect men to be more generous with ticks than women, and that no woman would leave without a single tick. I really can't believe it! Like you say, that's not to say the matches that you did get were any good, of course. I mean, I don't think I'd "do" anything different: I'd still pursue my hobbies, still go out socially and meet people, just the end result might not be spending the rest of my year alone romantically. Seriously, for as many times as you ask the same question, I am still unable to answer it. All manner of men, all shapes and sizes, yet I'm the one nobody wants. I cannot answer it, and I look forward to you asking the same question again very soon. Yup, like I said, I can find no objective reason. What I have observed over the years is that every aspect of my appearance has changed: clothes (we all go through phases, and grow up), hair, body type (I've since gained muscle mass), the only thing that has not changed is my face. Sure, if I was skinny, I'd work on that, if I hadn't changed my hairstyle or updated my wardrobe, I'd start with those. But when all of those have been done, and the only constant in this 12 years is my face, and people say 'definitely not!' based on a photo of my face... I don't really know what other conclusions to draw here. I don't personally feel like I look like I should be living under a bridge, but I'm damn sure treated that way. Again, I think you're not really reading my issue: this is not a fear of rejection, or being unable to ask people out. I'm a social person, and don't have any confidence issues asking people out. I get what you're going for with the video, but watching strangers with a camera pointed at them saying they 'would' go on a date with a YouTuber really doesn't seem to apply to me. Sure, I get it, people have personal stuff going on, not wanting to date anyone, not over their ex, there's a dozen reasons. What I am talking about is women who are actively seeking a man, that I get on with and can make laugh, but do not want to go out with me, and a week later appear with a handsome man on their arm.... I'm not putting 2 and 2 together and getting 10 here.

I'm really not looking to have any bias confirmed, but you must see that the opinion of 10 single women is more useful to me than the opinion of 100 straight men or married women. No, really, I've never asked someone out with a defeatist attitude; I may not be afraid of rejection, but I certainly don't invite it by asking people out when I'm sure they'll say no. 12 years is absolutely uncommon, I've yet to find anyone with a record that's even close. A few people on this thread have mentioned they've known people to take a little bit longer, who've had troubles talking to women etc, but none of that applies here, and even in their examples, they did not reach 30 in that same situation. It's a really hard one to put my finger on, though I put it down to Occam's Razor, the logic that when presented with a problem, the most obvious solution is usually the correct one: when you hear hoofbeats you'd think "horses!" not "zebras!", is the example to explain this. So you have someone that's never had anyone attracted to them, that people reject based off a photo, that when friends try to set him up with their friends, their friends say "no way!". Do you go to A) Maybe.... this person isn't attractive? Or B) Obviously they just need to be more confident! I really wouldn't say I've come in with a defeated mindset, quite the reverse, I'm fairly optimistic. Like the speed dating, I honestly felt good about myself, enjoyed the conversations I had and felt I came off pretty well, everyone praised me, and I went away thinking I'd got somewhere. Cut to the following morning, when I found out that 12 out of 12 women ticked 'no' for me, and were just being polite. The magic power of self belief did nothing to help me. I have tried to get my friends to set me up with their friends, to no success. The majority of the time the 'friend' says no once pictures are exchanged, others that have already met me said no immediately.

No, sadly, they really are "pretty people", that's not even just my own opinion. They spent their 20s in a bubble of kindness, free drinks and outdoor sex. I am definitively the odd one out when we take group photos. As lovely as they are, they're not my target market; they are straight men and married women. So while they might coo "Oh there's nothing wrong, any woman would be lucky to have you!" it literally means nothing as the single women of the world seem to hold a different opinion. It's like saying your brand of rubber tyres is only rated highly by people who don't have cars: it's nice and all, but what can you do with that information? Acceptance of the face is one thing, but I never really had a problem with it in the first place. So as much as I've always accepted it... where do you go from there? Honestly, that sounds about right. 100 in 12 years, breaks down to asking out 8 women per year, even adjusting for Covid it still works out about asking out 9.5 women per year. So yes, I would certainly lowball at 100, maybe 150. Not often enough? Maybe, I really don't keep a tally of the women I've asked out, or even what constitutes "asking out". Does it only apply to women I've actually asked to go out on a date? If so, that's around that 100 number you're talking about. But then what about women I may not have asked out directly, just tried to get to know a little better, and was shut down? Do they count? Or women in clubs and bars that just move away from me if they see me? Or the hundreds of people swiping 'no' on me over the last 12 years? I mean it's easy to say "not enough, keep at it!" but this does feel like a secret campaign against me at this point. Oh I'm under no illusions, I know women don't ask guys out themselves, I never expected it. My issue, as I continue to mention, is not a confidence issue, it is that women find me unattractive. I definitely think we are at that point now where I could post a picture of a person from a Victorian freak show, and the members of this thread would chime in with "See? You're not so bad! It's just an insane coincidence! Now get back out there, you scamp!", whether it's to be reassuring or just genuinely to contradict me at this point. I never really had a fear of rejection, I think when you're exposed to it early on it just desensitizes you to it going forward. So really, I can strike up and hold a conversation with anyone, no problem, never had the "Can't talk to her, she's out of my league!" feeling; they're all out of my league, so I may as well talk to someone. I really can't give you hard numbers as every situation is different; asking for numbers only happens if I've been talking to someone for a little bit, which only happens if they allow me to talk to them. So take the 10 women I may be interested in, the possibility of even asking for a number will only occur with maybe 2? I.... don't even know where to start with this one, but you're completely off. I'm not an incel with no hobbies or friends or social life, wondering why Peak 2000s Heidi Klum doesn't just fall into my lap. You've really got the wrong end of the stick here. Now you're talking! It does seem overly optimistic that the guy who can't get a single match on Tinder would upload himself to a "Hot Or Not" site, but I'd honestly rather get opinions/feedback from people who've never spoken to me and have no preconceived notions. Like I said, I generally don't think of or see myself as ugly, that's just the data I'm getting. Every interaction where I'm feeling good about how I look, or what I'm doing, yields just as much of a positive outcome as if I walked up to a woman and threw up on her shoes.

I believe a lot of suggestions are meant with good intentions, however having been at this for 12ish years, unfortunately they are a lot of things I've already done or attempted. That's nobody's fault, but suggesting I need to meet more people, dress nicer or exercise regularly, they're all solid advice for someone who hasn't done those things, but I have. The only things suggested that I haven't done are; giving up my hobbies to take on new ones in an attempt to meet women, or learn to drive and buy a car. Frustrated? Sure. Angry? No. I have of course asked my friends and explained my situation: they know me, they know what I look like, how I dress, that I'm easy to talk to and social etc. They really don't believe the words I'm saying when I tell them how I'm treated, so it's very difficult to get an effective dialogue going. It would be like if a close friend of yours asked for help about their ghost problem: fundamentally you don't believe in ghosts, so there's not going to be a great conversation coming from your side if you won't accept the premise. These are pretty people who've never had problems finding partners, even when they were 15 and didn't drive, so they genuinely don't believe me. Yes, it is incredibly frustrating. It happens more than you'd think. Sometimes it's outright saying it, sometimes it's implied "he's alright from the neck down", sometimes people are very polite and try to dance around it. Really, I can't point to a specific are that I would have surgically changed. I keep see 'facial symmetry' being touted as the most attractive feature but... I really see most faces as symmetrical. Maybe that's just me? Shy of a scar or disfigurement, I look at most people's faces and see them as symmetrical, so I'm really not sure where to go. Absolutely, in an ideal world I would sit in a surgeon's chair, hand over my credit card and say "fix this", and wake up with a new face, seeing as that seems to be the major turnoff for people. That is, however, unrealistic no matter how much money you have, so I'm not going further down that line of thinking.

See, now who's coming up with snark? Really though, pretty much all the examples I've listed have been from the past year, I only mentioned 2014 because you made the suggestion that on dating apps I use decent photos and write a bio, which is something I figured out in 2014, and have been doing ever since. Again, I really don't understand why you're so fixed on the driving thing. I'm confident in myself and who I am, that's never been a problem, I can get about in my city without any issue, at this stage in my life I really cannot find a decent reason to pay out that amount of money for a car I would rarely use, in vague hope that the women who found me repulsive suddenly change their minds. I don't want to seem like I'm giving up, I guess, more that I've ran out of ideas. Like I said, statistically I feel like my situation just doesn't happen, I have yet to meet another person like it: I know people on this forum say some of their friends have had similar situations, but I've yet to actually talk to any. It really does just feel bizarre, like there's something obvious that I must have missed, when I feel I'm doing everything right, or at least the bare minimum as a human to get some sort of validation. Sure, absolutely, everyone has their own struggles and lived experiences, I've always said that. You say that being 'bigger' has presented it's own share of challenges in life that you've had to overcome, and I have to take your word for it because it's something I've not experienced. The difference I'm seeing is that you are allowed to say that you are 'bigger' and that's okay, but if I say that I'm 'ugly', I get people screaming "No, you're definitely not! It's just a complete coincidence that you're 30 and never had a girlfriend, and get called ugly! They're just two separate things!" and I really don't understand it. Like you've said, you've seen how easy it is for a lot of people you know to maintain thinner physiques, and you're just not built that way, why am I not allowed to be ugly, and must be something else? I would say so. When I look at the women I've liked, there really hasn't been much of a 'thread' to them; short, tall, bigger, smaller, athletic, non-athletic. I would say I have liked a healthy amount of 'average' people. I mean, if I'm talking to someone and we really have nothing in common, I'd have to chalk it up to a loss, but the issue I bring up is that so often on the dating scene, I'm rejected before it gets to that stage. We may very well be reading the same books, or love the same music, I may cook her favourite meal without knowing it, but unfortunately that's just something that doesn't get to be explored.

Apologies for the confusion: 2014 was when I started online dating, prior to that (17-22) I didn't really think I needed it, but at 22 and never had any interest it seemed like a plan. I've been using dating sites ever since, not as my primary means of meeting people, just a side thing. Granted, I didn't really check it for 18 months when Covid Lockdowns were a thing, but life has been opened up to normal for over a year now. Over the years the photos have been updated etc, every now and then one of my friends would want to pick the photos and write the bio themselves claiming they can 'fix' it. I do appreciate the time you've taken to write these things, I just think we're coming at this from different life experiences: your husband is a hot guy, so his advice of "just keep asking people out, and everything will work out" may definitely have been true for him, but that's just not my experience. Nobody's 'wrong'. It's a bit like if someone's having an asthma attack, and I say "Don't be silly, there's loads of air here, I can breathe just fine!", it's technically true, but does nothing to solve the situation. So while you may think I'm not out there socially, not asking people out, or not talking to someone because I perceive them to be out of my league, but all I can tell you is that it's not true. I do realise you don't know me and are just asking questions, but all I can do is try to show you that I am doing all I can on that front, I'm not just sitting alone wondering why a woman doesn't fall through the roof and appear in front of me. Sure, I do agree that home ownership, driving and employed are absolute positives in the dating scene, but as I frequently mention, I get turned away before any of those questions were ever asked. Even in my teens and early 20s, where nobody drove or owned a home, I was still not seen as a catch. Even when I was 18 and renting, when most lived with their parents, it was not a positive 'boon' for me. For someone born in the 90s, owning a home on a single income, in this economy, without help from parents, it's very difficult. And it brings no guarantees: supposing I work really hard, get promoted, take all the overtime I can, save my money, to get a deposit for a house, pay twice more than I do per month currently, and for my efforts.... instead of being ugly and unwanted renting in 1 bedroom, I get to be ugly and unwanted but with a lovely kitchen backsplash? Yes, have been using online dating sites since 2014, with zero matches. Okay, I have to take 18 months off for Covid, but you get the idea. I'm very selective in photos that I use, try to show a range of interests, all that jazz. I've been through them all: OKcupid, Bumble, Match, PlentyOfFish, it's have been of no use. I mean, I've never been against the concept of a hookup, so long as nobody's being deceived and everyone's consenting. It's not something I'm looking for, but at a certain point I feel there would be some validation in being seen as attractive. I do understand that you're just trying to get information, but I really thought I'd addressed all of this several times now, and yet I still get people coming in with "Hmm, maybe you should try talking to them?", and as much as I appreciate they're trying to be helpful, from this side it feels like they never read my initial post. Sure, I did appreciate BoltAndRun's reply, because at the moment they seem to be the only one that seems to be believing the words that I'm saying. When I'm saying that women find me unattractive from a distance, knowing nothing about me, and people on this forum respond with "Well obviously it's because you don't drive!", there seems a real disconnect between the things I'm saying and the responses I'm getting. I guess my reason being here is to be believed, because this is my experience, and for the most part it's feeling like people don't. And I get it, they've lived lives that they have had relationships since they were 18, they don't believe that I can't, all I'm trying to do is get my side out there.

Again, I have plenty of social interaction, I'm out 3-5 times a week conversing with complete strangers, or in dance class where I know what I'm doing. It's not practice socialising that I lack, I'm very comfortable in these situations. You seem really annoyed that I use sarcasm and humour in my replies, that is because that while the majority of people seem to be suggesting things they think may be helpful, others come out with things such as "Have you tried asking them out?", like I'm sitting here wondering why I didn't think of that. I really made every effort to describe my situation to highlight that I'm engaged in many social activities that revolve around meeting new people, yet I still get messages such as "Have you tried meeting new people?" Your most recent suggestion is that I... upload a few decent pics and a bio describing my hobbies, that's literally what I did in 2014. THAT'S why I'm coming across as sarcastic to you. My problem is not that I don't understand how online dating works. You have asserted that everyone will assume I can drive because I'm 30, but also that me not driving is the reason I can't get a date: which makes no sense because according to you, they will naturally assume I can. Your two statements contradict each other. Like I said, if I was finding that it was becoming an issue as people got to know me, I'd have to concede the point, but seeing as I can't get past "hello", my transportation requirements are at the back of the line. The next time I'm in a club and a woman points to me and mouths to her friend "Eww, no!", I must realise that she's really saying "I ain't ridin' his stick until I know he can drive stick, Becky!" because apparently that's my issue. This may be a generational thing, I don't know your age, but if you're 22 and looking to date people of a similar age, Tinder really is the most popular app, and that was me. Even though the years have passed and my dating age has skewed older, it is still the 'default' for my generation looking to date. That's not to say it's the only site I've ever used, I've been through them all: eharmony, OKcupid, Bumble, Match, you name it, it is the same result. And it's true, I do see car pics as fairly douchey, same with gym pics. I have a couple pics of me playing sport, as I think it shows that I have outdoor hobbies and general fitness, but I would never throw up a gym mirror selfie. So, from my profile, there would be no indication as to weather I drive or not, unless I make the un-subtle move of putting "enjoys driving to the coast" in my list of hobbies, just to shout to the world "Hello ladies, I am mobile!" I mean, you can only take my word for this, but honestly I do just that. Weather it's dancing, or the gym, or social activities, it's always something that I'm good at, therefore have no issues with confidence etc. My body language is fine, I have absolutely no problems striking conversation with strangers, and do so on an almost daily basis. That may have been how it worked for you, and I'm happy to take your word on that, but I need you to take my word on this as my lived experience. Thank you, you seem to be the only one getting this at the moment. At this point, it does seem that all points lead to the hypothesis that I'm ugly. Really, if I can't get a date, get turned down before I've even opened my mouth, or just from photos, and get called ugly, at what point do we stop pointing to the magic power of self belief and accept something as a fact, or at least a consensus majority?

So it's something everyone assumes I have, yet also the reason they won't date me, even though I don't get the chance to correct them? I'm afraid I don't follow. I get it, in a long term situation it's absolutely a positive, even a necessity when you get to moving house, buying furniture, kids etc. At this stage in my life, when I'm only responsible for myself, and a week's food shop can fit into a backpack, I really have had no need to pay hundreds a month to... be sober at parties. I'm not against driving, it's just not been something I need to do at this point. So you're saying I should re-start Tinder dating, but in the 'About Me' section, I should put: 5 door, low mileage, no previous owners?

I'm polite, but I'm not oblivious to social cues. What I'm reading from that story is: you found an attractive man looking at you, he's eyeing you up all night, he's hot and in a band, you give him your Myspace, now you're married. That's great, I'm right behind that. Now to flip it, what if you weren't bowled over by him, what if he looked and sounded like Gilbert Gotfried? Would his persistence be 'cute' and 'charming', or would he be just a creep who harassed you that night? I'm not saying I'm giving up easy at every interaction, but you can tell when someone's into you, and when someone's clearly being not interested in the conversation. I mean, in my history I wouldn't say I have a particular 'type' of woman that I look for, all the people that I have liked have been very different. Some tall, short, fat, thin, some of them none of my friends could figure out why I liked them. I assure you, I'm not out only looking for models. Sure, I'm aware of a lot of things that can be improved. I'm clean shaven, my skin is decent, haircut is fine, I wear corrective lenses. I really have gone through this to try to improve anything I can. Have addressed the driving thing below, rather than typing it twice. I would disagree at this point. If I were talking to women and they found my lack of driver's license to be an issue, I'd have to agree with you, but I'll be honest it's not something that gets asked of me. Like I said, if women want nothing to do with you in the first place, they're not going to waste time asking how many kids you want, what car you drive and what your mortgage rates are. That's the boat I find myself in. As for me not driving, it's surprisingly common in the UK if you live in a big city. My work & friends are all close by, if I go out I'll often have a drink, parking is a nightmare, in fact the local government has been making efforts over the last 15 years to pedestrianise the whole city centre. At a certain point it's more hassle than it's worth for me; usually the people with cars are ones who's job requires it, or they have a family they need to transport. I owned a motorbike as a youth because I needed transport, but since coming here I found I never really used it.

Sorry bud, I haven't really had time yet, but do fully intend to! It sounds interesting. Again, I really can't answer for how every other male on Planet Earth, including boil covered dwarves and toothless smack addicts, can find themselves partners and I am unable to. Really, you've stumped me, I have no answer for that. All I can do is answer from the experiences I have, in which looks seems to be a definite roadblock. Other than hitting up a social club for the visually impaired, I'm sort of running out of ideas. Have I answered your question to your satisfaction? I mean, why? She wasn't saying it to me, I can't have her for her opinions. We're not especially close friends, but through good friends we've had enough interactions throughout the years. It does serve as a good example that while everyone can be all "Oh don't worry, there's nothing wrong with you!" when asked directly, you never know what's said once you leave the room. Hey there! As I laid out in my initial post; I'm renting, been fully employed since I was 18. I've had to re-train over Covid, I'm now on the path to a degree in mechanical engineering. I do not drive. Thing is, none of those things are remotely obvious. So when I'm in a bar or social situation, even before asking me any of those things, I get shut down. I could be a doctor with a big home and a 12" dong, and they'd never know it. I would err on the side of caution with the not taking "no" for an answer. I'm aware it's worked for some people, but honestly just hounding a woman who's got no interest in me just sounds like repeatedly hitting my head against the same closed door in hope that I break it down. Having seen the other side of it: a good female friend of mine has a regular group of guys that will message her daily, in hope that she'll go out with them, it just comes off as desperate. I'm not against flirting, and I do think I have a good sense of humour. I have over the years asked friends to set me up, female friends love to play matchmaker, however when they ask their single friends, so far they have said 'no' before even meeting me. As for a wider net, I mean, I live in a big city with thousands, I really didn't think I had to move beyond that to find someone who thinks I'm vaguely ok. That's not to say I'm against a commute, just seems much harder to wrangle. No, she was there with her partner. I'm absolutely not expecting women to hit on me, don't worry. I would say of my close friends, about half are women. I've been to events they have hosted and met their friends, that's no problem. To be fair, a lot of the time their friends are partnered up, that's nobody's fault. A few times I've asked if they could set me up with someone, and to their credit they have tried; the last time was a couple of years ago she had a friend that was looking to date and didn't know me, she had showed a semi interest when my friend described me, but lost interest once she showed her photos. You ask why I bring things back to my looks, I would say it seems to be the biggest hurdle. Again, between my hobbies, meeting new women and getting to know them is not a problem, I've made some great friends that way, but that's all it's going to be.