MysteriousTelephone

I have, and it's an interesting topic. I would argue that any man who pursues a goal in the gym has some level of body dysmorphia, as in: if they thought they were 'done' they'd stop going, therefore they have to be never happy with their body in order to continue. I'm really not trying to shut down people's suggestions, however I would state that throughout my life I have tried various things in terms of hairstyles, clothes etc, I've undertaken a fitness regime to improve my physique. I really have tried all the classic things people suggest, so I am trying here. I mean, sure, in my early 20s a hookup seemed more attainable than looking for marriage. Even just the validation of being asked, would be nice. Now I'm in my 30s I'm pretty harmonious to the idea that if a woman is looking for a hook-up, there's a new batch of hot 20somethings she could go for as opposed to the 30 year old nobody wants. I would like a relationship, however I acknowledge there must be a physical attraction for that to happen, which seems to be the part I struggle attaining.

My fitness regime is consistent: I go to the gym 3-4 times a week, on a push/pull/legs routine, diet is fairly clean. It's given me a fairly broad chest & shoulders for my size, which I'm very pleased with, though mostly only gets me compliments from dudes. I do my best to dress to emphasise the features I have, I tend to go for flattering cuts, but not 'tight'. Funny story, about a year ago I was at a gathering at a friend's house, and a couple I knew were there. We were all chatting about hook-ups and whatnot. When I went to the kitchen to head a drink, the woman was talking about if she was single what she'd look for, she referenced me and said "Like him... you know, but only from the neck down". I don't think she said it to be malicious, she probably has no idea that I heard it, that was just her opinion. I do still think I'm in some section of 'normal', facially, but the evidence does tend to mount the other way. Sorry bud, that was not intentional. I really am trying to reply to every question put my way here, must have slipped by: 1. Yes, I have. 2. Honestly, I have no idea. It irks me when I'm watching the news, and they're interviewing the girlfriend of a serial killer who's all "I had no idea", I'm out there doing my best, and the dude strangling cats is doing better than me! Yes, definitely. Literally any other business; restaurants, fixing a bike, installing a TV, tailoring clothes, open heart surgery, pretty much any business runs on the model of providing a service as efficiently and quickly as possible to receive money for providing goods and services. If your steak does not turn up, or your cable does not work, you would withhold payment or hold the service provider to account. I'm really glad you found a coach that you clicked with and it's helped you, but that does not change my point that it is a field that's A) open ended B) requires zero qualifications or board of oversight, and C) only makes money on the comeback. Even Personal Trainers, there are many good ones out there, but their business is in repeat clients. Except in this there is no accountability, theoretically I could be paying for this service for months and getting nowhere, and there would be zero liability on the dating coach's side, it would be on me for "not believing hard enough" or whatever.

What I'm saying is, it's all very well saying I want XYZ from life, if I have zero experience in that field it's just all theoretical. Many people want to become lawyers, then over the course of studying and passing the bar, they realise it's not for them. Some think moving abroad will be the best thing ever, then they do it and it's not what they thought. You get the idea. What I'm saying is that although the 'traditional' life path sounds good on paper, at this stage in my relationship development it's very difficult to say if that's for me. I really don't see how it's "self defeating" to acknowledge it is a field with zero qualifications required, with an open-ended business structure with no finish line, and no guarantees of it working. If you had a water problem, and you paid the same plumber to come over every week to 'assess' what's wrong, for about 4 months, eventually you'd say he has a financial interest in this. I wouldn't say I have an answer for everything, I'm being bombarded with questions and doing the best I can to answer them all. I really did my best to emphasise in my initial post that confidence is not the issue and that I have many social activities that lean towards finding relationships, and the chief issue I am facing is being perceived as 'ugly'. Yet I'm still getting asked things like 'Have you tried asking girls out?' and 'maybe try meeting new people?', it's almost as if some people didn't read it. Evidence? Okay, no, but honestly if I could show you her facial expression, you could absolutely read it like a book. Was perfectly happy and smiley when someone else was talking, but when I asked how her day was, she looked at me like I'd just ran over her cat, and said next to nothing. Honest to god, if you showed up at that precise moment, put a gun to her head and told her she had to choose between chewing her own arm off or going on a date with me, she'd have said "Pass the ***ing salt!" Again, I really don't think I'm ugly, I've always maintained I'm in some ballpark of 'normal', don't we all? This is just the experience I've had. I've not said that "everyone else" has good luck with dating, but of every male I know... it's more than zero. I mean, the difference between "zero" and "not a lot" is about as big as you can get. Apply it to: money, sleep, vacations, oxygen. You get the idea. Like I said, I am confident in myself, we're just talking about a fairly negative subject. The things in my life that I'm good at or enjoy are all fine and dandy, they're just not relevant to this conversation. I'm not getting names and addresses, but I do get called it a fair amount, yes. A little more in my late teens early 20s, now it's only occasional, or people learn to be more polite about it. And that really brings around to the crux of my point, if I'm doing everything else right, that can be the ONLY issue. Sure, it does happen. I would say I get called unattractive more from women than men. I think I can tell when another man is attractive, or what features of his I think stand out the most. Right, but if someone knows nothing about you, and has never heard you speak, and already they're at "eww!", then surely it must be a visual problem. I mean really, that's what it boils down to a lot of the time. I dress well, I don't stink etc, I've changed and improved literally everything I can change and improve. I very much agree with that first statement. But sadly I'm on the outside of the room, peering in like a child in a ***ens novel! Again, it's not that I'm calling myself ugly, or that I think I am, but that seems to be the growing consensus. The only people who disagree are my close friends who are obviously going to sugar coat it, and the people in this forum who've never seen me.

That's great, and I am 110% glad for you that you knew early on what you wanted, but that's not the experience for me. Sure, but each of these people runs a business, and their business is in keeping me. They would of course promise wonderful things, but I would need regular sessions to get anywhere. Honestly it just feels like a scam. Are you really asking for a word-for-word account of every women I've approached? I'm talking over a 10 year period, so my answers will be a little more 'general'. Some will respond in different ways to different questions. When talking to women who I've met through other friends, I've asked them out, only to be hit with the "sorry I'm not looking for a relationship" line, only to see them a couple weeks later on the arm of a handsome man. Other times it's just generally brushed off. Other times they are mysteriously busy. A few months ago started a conversation with a woman and she was physically repulsed at the sight of me, and just sort of buried her head in her phone until I began to talk to someone else. Nope, I'm not just out there hitting on anything with a pulse, sometimes I do genuinely just enjoy being friends. I mean, this is just my lived experience, I can only tell you what I know. Like I said, I don't think I'm terrible looking, that's just the data I'm extrapolating from 30 years of never having anybody interested in me. When my face is the first thing people see, even knowing literally nothing about me, will turn me down on, and other people with 'game' can't get a date using photos of me, it does seem pretty 'open and shut', your honour. Supposing for a second I'm a decent looking, funny, intelligent, kind person, I would absolutely not be in this situation. I know verifiably that the last three are true, but the first is difficult to be objective about when it's yourself. Like I said, people do treat you different when you're ugly, it's just a different world out there.

I mean, it would be worrying if I could give you an exact number, so I'll just go with "a lot" over a 10 year period. Sometimes it's more direct if the person is actively looking for a partner, other times it's a scenario where I know the other person in a group setting, so will find something we have in common and invite her to do that outside of a group setting in an attempt to get to know each other more. Hang on, now it really sounds like a racket. Now not only do I need to hire a dating coach, it's advised I try at least 3? I mean really, supposing for a second I have a free mini-consultation with this accredited dating coach, surely just a few minutes into the conversation where I'm telling him I'm 30 and never had a girlfriend because women find me unattractive, he will be mentally shopping for a new Audi. Honestly, women don't tend to ask me that at all. When you get turned away at the literal first hurdle, there's really not much more to it. Just talking casually to someone, they have no idea if I'm looking to marry or hook up, if I'm a doctor or a waiter. At the very first, mostly visual, level, they are not interested. As for what I want? Again, it's murky because I've never had a relationship to begin with. Sure, a marriage sounds great in theory, but I can't speak for that when I've yet to spend a Christmas with someone. Kids? I'm not against it, but having never been in a stable relationship you may as well ask me if I think I will have a hoverboard, it's just not something I've had to think about. Did you have it all planned out when you were 15? Honestly, I don't think I'm ugly, I think I'm in some ballpark of 'normal', don't we all? Sadly, I'm not my own target audience. Be it through in-person, online, speed-dating, friendship groups, only one thing that has remained a universal constant is my face, and I've had zero success with all of them. I know it's not exact science, but also, isn't it? I do understand that online dating is skewed to be slightly more difficult for men, but I've yet to meet any male in his 20s to get precisely zero matches unless there's something seriously wrong. Sure, I talk to people at dancing, I will befriend on facebook or ask for numbers if I think there could be something going on. Seriously, the high ratio of single women to single men is so skewed that I've seen every available man get snapped up very quickly. I assure you, I am making the effort. I mean, you make it sound so 'awful', when you've been living on figurative 'bread and butter' for years, the idea of a hook-up would bring a certain level of validation. Not putting the female population on a pedestal at all, my friend. You're assuming that I haven't asked anyone out, which is untrue. I mean, I didn't give you a play-by-play in my essay of a post, but I did repeatedly mention that confidence wasn't an issue, you may have missed that part.

I mean, between work, the gym, dancing, meet-ups, seeing friends, and having time to myself, I really don't think I would be able to throw volunteering on top of that. Something would have to give, and frankly I love my hobbies too much to begin volunteering in theatre in hopes of attracting a mate. I mean, Cameron Diaz is 50, so there's no ceiling on this. I like "not that picky", picky people tend to pick... other people! Me, physically. That's only a couple of people. Others have made better window dressing of letting me down, but the end result is the same. I think I'm fairly open minded, I really can't think of "non-negotiables" as such: I'd prefer a partner without children, purely because I'd rather not learn how to have a girlfriend and how to be a parent at the same time. Though as I get older I realise the likelihood of that gets smaller. As I said, and repeatedly mention, I really do go to plenty of events full of single women looking to have fun and find a partner. My issue is not a lack of opportunity, it is that they want nothing to do with me romantically. From experience, I think you're pulling those numbers out of thin air. Pretty much my entire generation uses Tinder or a variant of, and it's not just the elite 20% of men that are getting matches. The majority of my male friends have either found their current partner, or have had relationships in the past, that stemmed from being swiped on Tinder. I assure you, normal people do get matches, I'm not talking loads, but over time it happens. Except for me, where it does not happen, because I'm not believing hard enough, or something. Funny story, I was relaying my story to a male friend years ago: he's a handsome dude, happily married, still gets hit on fairly regularly. He didn't believe me at all, and was spouting off about how "it doesn't matter how you look, you must be saying the wrong things" etc. I did explain to him the model of most dating apps mean you can't say anything unless they 'like' you, but he was determined to prove me wrong. So I made him a deal: he could set up an account for me, use any photos of me he liked, say whatever he liked, and see what happens. He was confident he'd have a date set up within a week. 2 months later he comes back to me and admits it's actually pretty damn hard. I mean, I've literally not mentioned my standards at all in this, high or low. I'm pretty open minded, obviously never having had a relationship previously I'd like to keep things as simple as possible, but I've never looked for a specific 'type' of person. I really don't care who they vote for, what god they pray to, how much money they make. My age, plus or minus 7 years, but even that's a rough guess and not a hard rule.

I'm not against the idea, but I am skeptical. For example, it is an open ended practice, much like therapy. In that: the money is in the comeback. There's no profit in 'fixing' me in one session, they would want me to pay weekly, indefinitely. While I'm sure there are very helpful coaches out there, that sort of business model is certainly open to abuse. Also, having searched the services typically provided by dating/relationship coaches, they are very geared towards people who have difficulties reading social cues or talking to the opposite sex, which I don't feel applies to me. Another aspect is helping with communication in online dating, which definitely would not apply here, as people very literally see a picture of me and say 'no', leaving me unable to message. I mean, sheesh, you've got a friend who's kind, intelligent, funny, beautiful AND not that picky? I'm booking my plane tickets! For real though, if it's rare for a man to be unwillingly single into his 30s, your friend's situation sounds even more bizarre. From my perspective, if we get on and she's keen, what's the problem? I mean, you say that, didn't John Merrick get married in his 20s? When The Elephant Man verifiably was more successful with women than you, you've got to sit yourself down and ask yourself some questions. My jobs have usually been pretty male dominated, but that said, every male I have worked with has been with a partner. And these are bricklayers: their only hobbies are football and casual racism, yet somehow they found wives. As for my hobbies, they are pretty good ways to find and bond with new people. Swing dancing in particular, has a fairly young demographic, in which the women tend to outnumber the men. I've seen just about every eligible male get snapped up very quickly, and there are still a lot of young single women out looking for a guy. When I've asked through a friend to see how these people felt about me, just in general, the response was "he's lovely, but eww". Other than that, the meet-up groups, as I mentioned, are very geared towards meeting new people. It's a really nice environment because everyone is there for the same reason, you can literally go up to anyone and just start a conversation. I've seen quite a few couples get together from that group.

Define "over-reliance"? As I said, the majority of my activities are in the physical world, though I have also used dating apps, particularly the one most commonly used by my age range, casting the widest possible net. It's really not that uncommon, many of my friends, who are fairly normal looking guys, found their current partners via online dating. Even if it was sifting through matches, they eventually got there. Now picture zero matches, ever, and calling yourself 'average'. If so, what is 'average'? Sure, I'm a fairly positive and upbeat person, I love to talk about my hobbies, as well as ask people about theirs. As I said, I make friends really easily, so I can't be that horrible at conversation. I get compliments on my clothes, I do my best to dress to accentuate what I have and hide what I don't. As for what I want? Well I guess I never got that far, that's a bit like asking a starving man what he's picked from the menu! Really, I just want a normal relationship. Realistically I'm not expecting my first relationship to be my last one; most people get those out of the way at about 16, but The Lord in his infinite wisdom decided I should be into my thirties. Like I said, I make good friends wherever I go, so I figure my energy can't be that terrible. Often I'll be doing something I enjoy doing and am good at, so it's not really a problem. I get told I'm well spoken, though I have yet to be told I "sparkle". That's great, and I'm really glad it's worked out for you guys. And yes, my friends did all adopt the "2.4 kids and a dog" lifestyle. I'm not in any way saying that nobody has ever found happiness unless they're physically perfect, or that there aren't other qualities, I'm stating my lived experience, which suggests that if most other things are okay, it must be looks. They mean well, but I believe in their efforts to be kind they're not being truthful. Telling me how 'amazing' I am, to preserve my feelings, really gives me nothing to work on in order to get out of this incredible rut.

So, this is a weird thing to post, as I really don't know what to do, but it's weighing me down and nobody seems to give any constructive help. In short, I'm male, 30 years old, 5ft 10, 170lbs, I'm in reasonably athletic shape. I rent in a city, and am fully employed. In my spare time I enjoy a range of hobbies, such as; going to the gym, swing-dancing, photography, meeting friends, going to bars & clubs. I've also joined some social "meet-up" groups designed to help meet new people. All of that is great, I love the things that I do, and I make friends very easily from them. I honestly feel lucky to have curated such a wonderful bunch of people from different walks of life, a healthy mix of male and female, older and younger, married and single. I'm very social, and have no issues with shyness or confidence, or else I would not have made so many good friends from these places. My problem, is that I cannot get a girlfriend, and it's becoming increasingly apparent to me that my looks are the issue. Look, I know that "nobody's ugly!" and all the Hallmark card stuff, but at this point I cannot put it down to anything else. This is not some random theory I've come up with, I have been told this many times over the years. Honestly, I think I'm somewhere in the range of 'average', don't we all? Sadly, the single women of the world have a different opinion. I have been told many times that I'm ugly, and though I don't believe it, it does seem like the general consensus. Tinder is the obvious yardstick: women are shown a picture of me with no clue as to how what job I have, my confidence levels, my religion, my politics, literally nothing other than "is this person attractive?" and seeing as I've never had a match on there, the answer must be "no". I live in a big city, it is odd to never ever get a match. I take care in the photos I put up, it's not hard. I had a friend try to tell me that it must be something I'm saying wrong, and that he could get me date within a week using online dating. I took him up on his challenge, he could say whatever he wanted, just had to use photos of me. 2 months later with no dates, he gave up. But of course, online is not the only way to meet people. Like I said, I do a range of activities that are very easy to meet a partner, and many do through these channels. I have known many single women actively looking for a man, but any suggestion I make of us getting to know each other better is quickly brushed aside. I will also get the "I'm not looking for a relationship" line from people, which is betrayed when they show up a few weeks later with an attractive person on their arm. I've even went speed dating, events where single women literally pay money to meet a man; at these events I've had really good times talking to people, felt relaxed, and walked away feeling good about myself. Then the next morning I find that out of 12 women, all of them ticked 'no' for me. Again, I can't see how it could be a confidence issue when I don't feel un-confident. I'm having a hard time getting people to believe me. My friends certainly don't, as much as they give the cartoonishly supportive line of "something will come along soon, just you wait!", it would be more convincing if they hadn't been saying it since 2012. Thing is, they've all had a completely different lived experience. They're pretty people: they had their first relationships in their teens, then a couple of semi serious ones in their early 20s, then they got married with 2.4 kids and a Labrador. Whereas I'm 30 and never even had a Valentine's Day card. I feel very 'behind' everyone else. They literally do not understand the words I am saying when I tell them that women want nothing to do with me, because they've never had that experience. It makes me sad that as much as I do enjoy my life as it is, I'm getting the impression that... this is it; I will just work during the week, fill my evenings and weekends with hobbies and friends, and that's all my life will be until I die. Statistically it's unheard of to make it to 30 without having a single relationship, I've never met anyone with that issue. I have had a couple of one-night-stands when I was in my early 20s, but I'm very aware they only happened with copious amounts of alcohol, in the sober light of day each person dropped me very quickly. I don't know, but seemingly nobody else seems to. I don't know what I hoped to achieve writing this here, but I'm just out of ideas. I'm very sure many will skim-read this and come up with the usual "you just need to believe harder!" or "have you tried meeting new people?", to those who've read the whole thing and believe the words I'm saying, thank you.