Next steps

[deedee911]

Thank you.

[Batya33]

I think a committed couple owes it to each other to have these discussions in person if at all possible. Or on the phone. Write it all out if you like then read it to him. I cannot tell you how crucial it is with important discussions to have eye contact and body language and show you are physically present if at all possible. It makes such a huge difference and yes o think that’s generally true.

And I think strongly committed couples who are ready to be there for each other will make the effort to do this and not hide behind a screen. Yes to me with important stuff it’s hiding. And yes it’s fine to read what you’ve written down. Yes sometimes phone is essential but at least you’re having a conversation. Not all “communication “ is created equal as far as the mode of communication. My boss for example prefers face to face to make sure we’re all on the same page - and not just with me.

He’s entitled to his fly by night approach - my friends husband sort of does this and you know what she does ? She has a full time job in her profession and two side jobs - think yoga instructor - and then also does some MLM selling and she lets her husband do his business. Two young kids and a mortgage. Works for her. Would never ever work for me. No way.

No I would not respect your boyfriend’s choices. I would be friends with a person who made those choices but I never ever would tie my future to a person with those choices and values. Much less have a family with that person.

My husband will say he has ideas to do this or that creatively. Most of the time he doesn’t follow through. He is working on a small side project now. But for the last 26 years he’s either been employed full time or been in grad school - and stable and lucrative employment. Same here except a bit longer. When we met he asked me why I chose the job we both had. He said it was important to him to know what my values were and whether I was ambitious and passionate about my work. Even though he was also happy to hear my goal of being a full time mom for way longer than maternity leave. Those were his specific values and we had compatible values. And I see every day why that’s so important. We have slightly differing values on spending and saving but nothing of any concern. And we learn from each other. We respect each other. It’s essential.

I don’t think you respect or admire him and he balks at it.

[katrina1980]

Gawd, I hate the phone. Nothing ever comes out right when speaking on phone.

 

I find it awkward, I am much more articulate and succinct when expressing thoughts via the written word. Even more so than in person although I LOVE spending time in person. Talking, laughing, playing.

 

Boyfriend and a few before him, felt the same. I just love writing in general, perhaps that's the difference. I like writing poetry and short stories too. Thoughts, ideas are conveyed better that way, for me. And I know for some others too.

 

My feeling is if deedee and her boyfriend feel comfortable expressing themselves via text or email, then who am I, who is anyone, to judge what works for THEM.

 

Just like I would never judge anyone for preferring to speak on phone or in person. To each his/her own is my motto.

 

To me the important thing is that you're communicating. Who really cares how it's done as long as you're doing it, and expressing your thoughts and feelings in a clear precise way.

 

JMO

[deedee911]

I agree with the both of you.See, we have talked about this stuff many times in person sitting close to each other looking into each other's eyes. But I think the issue here isn't communication. I think the issue is here is a guy who is a dreamer. Who has all of these ideas and has not capitalized on one. Not even one. He gets mad at me for not supporting him while I am sitting in pure anxiety waiting to see when he gets a job or not. Even when he does get a job I have no idea what he will end up doing. Although he has a degree in Economics and a diploma in business management, the types of jobs he is looking for is in sales. It annoys me and makes me cringe every time he talks about one of his pointless business ideas. It is an interest, true. But given the fact that he has clearly told me that he is more interested in doing a business than working I see all of these ideas as get rich schemes. Ways he doesn't have to have a job like everyone else.

 

If he had a stable job and was doing this stuff on the side for fun then that is different. It annoys me that he even thinks of bringing this garbage up when he knows how serious I am about a serious relationship. He knows how career oriented I am. I cannot tell him to stop his interests because they annoy me. So, this is why I need to let him go. My respect for him is dwindling by the day. It even angers me that I feel he is wasting my time. He says he is doing everything he can to find a job. But I just can't take him seriously with all of this business venture crap. I feel he is making a mockery of my biological clock without even realizing. It infuriates me.

[deedee911]

I don't want him to blame me down the road for him not doing what he really wants because I "forced" him to get a job. I don't want to be resented. If he is getting a job to please me then I don't want that. He needs to make his own life choices for him, not to keep me. I told him several times to follow his dreams and don't let anyone get in the way... not even me! I want him to be successful and I hope he hits it big and becomes a millionaire. He would probably come back and rub it in my face for giving up on him. I think of Steve Jobs and how much he was ridiculed when he had this wacky business idea...

 

I don't know. But I feel my self esteem is going down, too. It is bringing me down. Just the other day he told me that he thinks I AM the one who is afraid of commitment and I am pushing him away. It is this garbage that gets in my head which makes me feel guilty because I start doubting myself. I think "maybe he is right." I just end up feel insecure and confused.

[boltnrun]

If you're "insecure and confused" in a love relationship...it's the wrong relationship.

 

But you've known this for a long time. He isn't making a mockery of your biological clock. You know who he is and you're choosing to stay anyway. How is that his fault?

[reinventmyself]

I just can't help but think of the first man I dated, post divorce. He was a dreamer and I bought into it for a little while. He kept telling me stories of past jobs, so at some point I asked him if he could account for all of them in writing. I was shocked when he was able to count over 40!

 

The picture became painfully clear. His ex wife was the breadwinner and she left because she grew tired waiting for his ship to come in.

 

Granted, he was a nice guy but between going through a divorce myself and trying to get my balance, who was going to take care of the two of us, if one of us fell? I realized I was better off single and ended it.

 

Fast forward, he almost immediately marries an architect with 5 small kids. With his combined, a total of 7 kids. She has a very lucrative business remodeling homes, primarily kitchens and as no surprise to anyone who knows him, he's now the `office manager.' I smirk when I see his comments on their website promoting (his wife's) business. One would think it was his, but what do I know?

 

(it was an amicable breakup and I was close to his daughters and we are FB friends today)

 

As an adult man he's never been successful at any thing he tried. And he tried a lot.

 

It's just part of his makeup and it's never going to change. I think his wife was grateful he was willing to take on her 5 small children. For them, it works. win/win

[Batya33]

Gawd, I hate the phone. Nothing ever comes out right when speaking on phone.

 

I find it awkward, I am much more articulate and succinct when expressing thoughts via the written word. Even more so than in person although I LOVE spending time in person. Talking, laughing, playing.

 

Boyfriend and a few before him, felt the same. I just love writing in general, perhaps that's the difference. I like writing poetry and short stories too. Thoughts, ideas are conveyed better that way, for me. And I know for some others too.

 

My feeling is if deedee and her boyfriend feel comfortable expressing themselves via text or email, then who am I, who is anyone, to judge what works for THEM.

 

Just like I would never judge anyone for preferring to speak on phone or in person. To each his/her own is my motto.

 

To me the important thing is that you're communicating. Who really cares how it's done as long as you're doing it, and expressing your thoughts and feelings in a clear precise way.

 

JMO

 

I love writing too. One of my majors was creative writing. I write as part of my job, a lot. And when it comes to close friendships or romantic relationships or professional relationships I think communicating about difficult and sensitive topics requires in person or on phone-even if it's reading out loud what has been written -because writing it out can be so so helpful to oneself - and I think people deserve in person communication or at least phone on difficult or sensitive topics especially. Being comfortable is important too of course and I see commitment as putting aside comfort for the strength and development of the relationship and the connection - it's not always comfortable to be honest and open and direct but in the end if you show the person you are strong enough to look the person in the eye, to be with them, to deal with uncomfortable silences or tension or body language and still be with them and talk or just be - the relationship only gets more solid and closer.

 

I am not "judging" -I'm giving my opinion that especially with life altering topics and decisions like these the good of the relationship deserves in person communication even if you're reading from what was written (I have done that too).

 

To me it's not all "communication" -that's a bland term and I communicate when I gesture to a stranger on the street too. Not all communication is created equal and when I read what she wrote to him and he to her I saw how the way in which they chose to "communicate" speaks volumes about how solid they are and how much they respect/care about each other's point of view. If they were in person they'd have to put in the effort to actively listen, to be with each other and not to talk at each other and throw around cliches.

 

And if they did, in person too, fine but at least they would have given it a best shot. For example I can't imagine a marriage counselor would allow a couple to "communicate" during a counseling session by typing to each other and to the counselor. Maybe in an emergency if they simply needed help and could not be together but of course such an important part of counseling like that is being in the same room and talking to each other, in person. And sure when you have the luxury of sitting behind a screen you can think about what to type and be "clear" and "precise" but unless you can find a way to communicate about difficult and sensitive topics in person I don't think that's a truly committed or close relationship.

 

For example -she wants a family. Guess what - so much of parenting requires the couple speaking to each other about really hard stuff in the moment and right in front of the child if a tough decision needs to be made. And sometimes the couple will say "let's talk later" and if they can, they do -and sometimes it just cannot be that way -the issue has to be dealt with right then. And if this couple typically "communicates" by texting or typing they're going to be in big trouble and certainly can't be a good role model for "communication" for their child. For example.

 

Certainly it's whatever works for the couple but if a couple wants a family like this OP says she does then relying on hiding behind a screen to type about difficult topics is not going to work long term (unless it's an unusual situation with a commuter marriage and one parent at a time raising the child or living in different places -of course there are always exceptions)

 

In person communication can be tough, awkward, tense -and on difficult topics especially it's what makes commitment strong and stronger in my humble opinion. When my husband's mother died and when she was dying he was overwhelmed and had a hard time even knowing how to express his feelings -he would get quiet/withdraw, etc. So what I decided to do -when he did want to speak and express was I made sure to look completely away from my computer (no smartphone then, 6 years ago) or the TV or my book and I stopped everything. And was quiet. And made sure he knew I was totally there to listen. Even if I said little.

 

And I decided from then on that in general I would try to do that- to stop everything even if we were just talking about our day. I don't always. He doesn't always. But I'm mindful of it. Texting is cheap -you know you can look away from the screen, you know you can stop the "communication" whenever you want "oh wait- just got a call/oh wait -got to go get the laundry now" - even if you don't you know you can. If you're in person and devoting that time to that person you've committed to be there, to see it through and if it gets too much you have to say "hey, I need to stop now -I need some space -this is too much" -and that effort shows the person what your boundaries are as opposed to 'oh - you know what - I'm signing off now -ttyl". It's too easy. And does a disservice to the relationship. I'm guilty of all of it -of prioritizing my smartphone over my husband of times, of not being a great listener at times, etc -and him too. But I own it, I try to do better and see how important that type of "communication" is.

 

OP - if you respect and admire your partner and want to listen to him with a level of respect and admiration and without having a script in your head prepared as to how to respond find a time when you can actually talk with him in person - or maybe with a counselor or a religious counselor if that works. If it's worth it. If you simply want to text with him and go back and forth with your "advice" and digress into nonsense anecdotes that evade the issue then continue to do what you're doing. I'd move on if I were you and I'd also consider changing the way you discuss these kinds of topics. I see what Katrina is saying about not "judging" and I'm going out on a limb as an old married lady to ask you to consider a different approach.

 

Good luck.

[deedee911]

That's interesting. And I know he will make someone else happy. He is a wonderful person.

 

I don't need him or anyone telling me that I am not serious or afraid of commitment. In my opinion, it is head games. I am a strong woman and I know what I want. I know I am not perfect either, but at least I know what I want. I don't waver (thank you Batya33). Life is confusing for anyone, but I don't allow myself to get distracted. I know what I have to do and I do it.

[Batya33]

I don't want him to blame me down the road for him not doing what he really wants because I "forced" him to get a job. I don't want to be resented. If he is getting a job to please me then I don't want that. He needs to make his own life choices for him, not to keep me. I told him several times to follow his dreams and don't let anyone get in the way... not even me! I want him to be successful and I hope he hits it big and becomes a millionaire. He would probably come back and rub it in my face for giving up on him. I think of Steve Jobs and how much he was ridiculed when he had this wacky business idea...

 

I don't know. But I feel my self esteem is going down, too. It is bringing me down. Just the other day he told me that he thinks I AM the one who is afraid of commitment and I am pushing him away. It is this garbage that gets in my head which makes me feel guilty because I start doubting myself. I think "maybe he is right." I just end up feel insecure and confused.

 

Why does him becoming a millionaire mean he was "right" or that you have compatible values? So if a person with his outlook on business strikes it rich then that takes care of the issue? Is it really all about whether the person makes money from their idea? Didn't seem that way. Sure if he makes a million it reflects something positive about one or more of his ideas. But it doesn't mean his work ethic or values match yours. Does it?

[deedee911]

We haven't talked since he stormed out of my house yesterday. He was mad because I wasn't giving him good advice or 'listening' to the issue he has. I AM NOT A BUSINESS CONSULTANT. I don't know what to tell him. I feel he puts so much on me to come up with answers and if I don't have the answer he wants I am not supportive.

 

His idea is stupid! So very stupid! Honestly if I told you guys you too would cringe. Ahhhh I just feel so gross.

 

I knew 9 months ago I would have an issue with the fact that he wasn't in a stable career. I knew that would be an issue down the road and guess what it is. But, I chose to give him the benefit of the doubt. 9 months later we are in the same merry-go-round. I can see this going on forever. And us fighting because I don't 'support' him or his business ideas.

 

It seems to me that he is using these business ideas as an easy way out. To not have real responsibilities. Honestly, if I had the sense that he was serious about them and I could see they were legit I wouldn't be freaking out. But come on! He has been working on this for 4 years??!! and he is still working on the grammar on his site. What a joke. I am tired of being sold garbage and buying it.

 

It comes down to this... I don't want to have to guess or assume. I want to be with someone who is where he wants to be. And he will too see that I am where I want to be. Perhaps there would be opportunity to have a business down the road which is something that I am interested in. But with this guy I am with - he has no focus and is all over the place. I am not wrong to want someone who has their stuff together at my age. So, if he tries to blame me and tells me things like I am not committed etc... I am going to chose to ignore. He also told me that this will be a self fulfilling prophecy to be afraid of being alone and not having kids and getting exactly that. BLAHHHHH!!!

[katrina1980]

I just figured out why I dislike talking on phone or sometimes even in person about sensitive topics.

 

I find that people have a tendency to interrupt your thought process, your trying to express your thoughts and they interrupt you mid-sentence not even allowing you to finish your thought! Phone is the worst!!!

 

I find that extremely frustrating.

 

Or they dominate the conversation, again not allowing you to express/finish your thoughts; this has led to arguments --- may I finish my damn sentence please??? LOL

 

With email (which is what I prefer) you each get to express your thoughts/feelings without the other person barging in interrupting you, dominating the conversation.

 

My bf's and I have resolved many many issues that way.

 

Anyway, jmo I don't think anyone "owes" anyone a phone or in person convo, it's what they prefer as a couple, how best they communicate.

 

So I guess we will just have to agree to disagree Bat, I have no problem with that!

[Batya33]

I think you've clarified it for yourself very very well. It's impressive and will be very helpful to you in deciding what to do. I met a number of entrepreneurs in my dating years and it very often was not for me. I have a friend in her 30s -she has depression and also recently diagnosed with MS and lots of other health issues. I like her husband very much and they have a 7 year old child. And he loves his job -in a creative field -but it is very low paying, he's always doing free lance/contract work, always underemployed, on the brink of being laid off etc - and he also lacks focus and is doing all these side projects that amount to nothing. So my friend is driving Uber (and has an MBA but can't work at a real job right now with her health issues) and her mother in law moved to their city to help them. It's really stressful and not a way to live.

[katrina1980]

OMG this guy is so far from ever being a successful "entrepreneur" it's laughable.

 

He's a dreamer, and always will be. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it's just not your cup of tea and that's ok!!

 

And now him accusing you of being a "commitment phobe" or whatever he accused you of - here we go with the guilt-tripping and gaslighting.

 

Yeah you're afraid of commitment because you want better for yourself than some guy who talks out of both sides of his mouth!

 

deedee, you sound like you have your shyt together, you know what you want (and don't want), you're strong, resilient and you WILL find a man who's on par with your values re career and everything else.

[Batya33]

I just figured out why I dislike talking on phone or sometimes even in person about sensitive topics.

 

I find that people have a tendency to interrupt your thought process, your trying to express your thoughts and they interrupt you mid-sentence not even allowing you to finish your thought! Phone is the worst!!!

 

I find that extremely frustrating.

 

Or they dominate the conversation, again not allowing you to express/finish your thoughts; this has led to arguments --- may I finish my damn sentence please??? LOL

 

With email (which is what I prefer) you each get to express your thoughts/feelings without the other person barging in interrupting you, dominating the conversation.

 

My bf's and I have resolved many many issues that way.

 

Anyway, jmo I don't think anyone "owes" anyone a phone or in person convo, it's what they prefer as a couple, how best they communicate.

 

So I guess we will just have to agree to disagree Bat, I have no problem with that!

 

Yes of course and it works great for couples who are long distance and do not want much of an in person relationship -if that is not a priority -and for certain couples it isn't -of course it can work great. And if there are issues with interrupting or other in person issues then all that means is the couple has to work on communication, not take the easy way out behind a screen. Sure you can "resolve" the issue that way - but then you sacrifice true closeness and connection. It's why marriage counselors work so hard with couples precisely on in person communication (and of course they might recommend writing things down, or waiting till you're calm to talk in person etc). ]

 

To me a couple who prefers not to talk in person about important issues is a couple who prefers not to be as close as possible- who feel more comfortable with space and emotional distance -and I am not judging that kind of couple -if that's their preference!. And arms length or nearly arms length certainly works better for certain couples -I'm talking about couples who value being close and working on in person closeness and communication and see the importance of that to emotional closeness- especially if they have children (how sad for a child to grow up watching his parents resolve important issues by typing to each other - and children watch and absorb EVERYTHING like that - more than we know and shockingly so at times).

 

I don't think anyone owes anyone an in person conversation. If my partner didn't value that and value me enough to think I was worth the extra effort of in person communication I would know he didn't value being close to me.

[katrina1980]

Batya, I really respect your opinion but do you think you can refrain from saying things like ".. taking the easy way out behind a screen."

 

I don't view it that way, as the "easy" way out. Behind a screen or otherwise.

 

It's my preference, it's how I best communicate. Fortunately my boyfriends agree.

 

Thank you!!

[Batya33]

Batya, I really respect your opinion but do you think you can refrain from saying things like ".. taking the easy way out behind a screen."

 

I don't view it that way, as the "easy" way out. Behind a screen or otherwise.

 

It's my preference, it's how I best communicate. Fortunately my boyfriends agree.

 

Thank you!!

 

Yup - just my opinion and it's how I've always seen that way of approaching difficult topics with a romantic partner (certainly if there is fear of abuse, etc or outside the committed partner realm I get it -it's for safety!).

I've seen many people communicate behind a screen because it's easier for them and that is their priority. And had it done to me and I've done it to others.. Sorry if I offended and glad you've found boyfriends who are comfortable with that kind of communication! The OP is talking about marriage and family and that is one reason why I'm suggesting to her not to type about important topics -different from having a boyfriend especially when a child is involved -if she lives with someone and parents with them they have to be able to communicate effectively and respectfully and happily in person especially if they want that level of intimacy. Intimacy can be messy and awkward including close communication. And to me it's essential to make that effort if closeness is desired and a healthy marriage/family.

[Honeycomb8]

If he's been jobless for this long who pays for the food and entertainment costs? Does he flat, is he living off his savings?

 

 

I'm sorry but I could never date a guy who's jobless. If they're between jobs, if they have a rough patch it's diff but if he's always been lazy and a dead weight... HELL NO.

[Wiseman2]

Unfortunately he's right. Stop micromanaging him.

him: This was never my plan.

[deedee911]

Hi all, I just wanted to provide an update. My boyfriend (yes, we did not break up) got hired to work for a company and is getting paid literally 3 times what he got paid when we met. I am just saying this because i chose to stay with him and we both got blessed with this job he got. It is the perfect opportunity to take the next step in our life and start a family. There were a lot of people on here skeptical and telling me to break up with him immediately. All I needed was advice on how to arrive at my decision instead I got told to dump his sorry ass. Well I am very very glad I didnt.

[mustlovedogs]

You were not blessed with his new high paying job. You’re not married, so you have no ownership over it.

 

But I’m glad he’s doing better. I would recommend holding off on kids until you have a more secure commitment.

[Batya33]

Hi all, I just wanted to provide an update. My boyfriend (yes, we did not break up) got hired to work for a company and is getting paid literally 3 times what he got paid when we met. I am just saying this because i chose to stay with him and we both got blessed with this job he got. It is the perfect opportunity to take the next step in our life and start a family. There were a lot of people on here skeptical and telling me to break up with him immediately. All I needed was advice on how to arrive at my decision instead I got told to dump his sorry ass. Well I am very very glad I didnt.

 

Congratulations to him on his accomplishment and best of luck with his new job. I wasn't clear at all that your issue was just his salary -if it were I would have had a different reaction. You seem very excited that he now makes three times what he made before. Hopefully he doesn't have to work three times as hard/have a lot of increased stress - so hopefully he is blessed with that as well. I've seen all permutations of that in my 20 plus years of working (and being a recruiter for a small part of that).

 

I would never ever tell anyone to "dump' a person or think of them as a "sorry ass" - I saw that you two might not have compatible values and that perhaps you'd be better separating.

[boltnrun]

Well, OP, YOU were the one who called his business idea "stupid " and "a joke". We didn't.

 

But I'm glad you're happy.

[Batya33]

Well, OP, YOU were the one who called his business idea "stupid " and "a joke". We didn't.

 

But I'm glad you're happy.

 

This is what you wrote about your partner:

 

"Where is that business now? Ha! It was a pipe dream. He sold me on a pipe dream and now 7 months later I look back and think I fell for it. Not like he was lying . But now I feel disenchanted. That he told me something and I held on to it. I wouldn't have gone for him had it not been for that business. Now he is looking for a job. Sales jobs whatever that pays a higher salary because he knows I deserve better and that he wants to provide a good life for us."

 

 

So am I right in connecting the dots that he has taken this job based on salary and not because it involves what he is interested in/passionate about? My husband took a pay cut to pursue his passion 20 years ago. Thank goodness he did. And-- since his passion is high paying too -- $ is a non-issue for him. And a non-issue for me because I built my nest egg all by myself through hard work (which you said you value) so I wasn't looking to him to be a sole provider -even when he was, I contributed out of my investments as needed. I can see another kind of person looking down on him because he took a significant paycut to pursue his dream, what he was interested in. I didn't. The opposite. I'm concerned that if your boyfriend took this job to make you happy with the increased $ that he might not make himself happy long term.

[maew]

Hi all, I just wanted to provide an update. My boyfriend (yes, we did not break up) got hired to work for a company and is getting paid literally 3 times what he got paid when we met. I am just saying this because i chose to stay with him and we both got blessed with this job he got. It is the perfect opportunity to take the next step in our life and start a family. There were a lot of people on here skeptical and telling me to break up with him immediately. All I needed was advice on how to arrive at my decision instead I got told to dump his sorry ass. Well I am very very glad I didnt.

 

Glad you are happy with his decision.... hopefully he is too!