Do you think this type of age gap would be acceptable?

[Capricorn3]

Oh Cap no need to let my post affect you to such an extent that you have to sign off. I'm just one person and obviously I misread the situation and thought his disability was more severe than what it actually is.

 

But that said, I don't think it's wrong to at least consider alternative possibilities here, I have an open mind, and it's my nature to try to understand all sides, that's all.

 

I work in the legal field, and do this everyday!

katrina, just to clarify, I did not leave the thread because of your views. It's the entire scenario. I am a very open minded person too, but I draw the line if anything like this ever crossed the path of my 14 year old daughter. I am assuming you don't have children, so maybe can't relate, but no matter. That said, it still boggles my mind that anyone would be okay with this. It's just beyond my understanding. 'Nuff said.

 

(I too am in the legal field, have been for almost 38 years).

[Seraphim]

Will you stop assuming things please? I neither said nor implied any such thing.

 

I am familiar with autism, but always open to learning more.

 

I am simply wanting to clarify that I was under the mistaken impression that OP's brother was suffering from a different type of disability, more along the lines of mental retardation, which I understand (and have always understood) is VERY different from autism.

 

And in my defense, the way the OP kept going on about how emotionally and developmentally challenged he is, and how mentally he's on the same level as this 14 year old girl, I don't think my assumption was that off base.

 

But I get it now! And am apologizing to anyone on this thread I have offended. That is never my intention, I just speak my mind, if I have a different thought process from others, than I will post it.

 

However again, I understand now, he's not mentally retarded or even close to that, I acknowledge this.

You kept trying to stop me from imparting knowledge about autism so how am I not to assume ? Anyway, no difference on my end. I am just trying to make life easier for people like my son and people like the OP and his brother .

[katrina1980]

katrina, just to clarify, I did not leave the thread because of your views. It's the entire scenario. I am a very open minded person too, but I draw the line if anything like this ever crossed the path of my 14 year old daughter. I am assuming you don't have children, so maybe can't relate, but no matter. That said, it still boggles my mind that anyone would be okay with this. It's just beyond my understanding. 'Nuff said.

 

(I too am in the legal field, have been for almost 38 years).

 

Thank you and fair enough, but to clarify further, I never said I would be okay with it and don't believe I read where anyone else said they would be either.

 

Just to say that, based on my earlier interpretation that he was mentally retarded, which was obviously the wrong interpretation, I was open to exploring alternatives to automatically deeming him a pedophile and criminal.

[katrina1980]

You kept trying to stop me from imparting knowledge about autism so how am I not to assume ?

 

Actually I wasn't, my mind was more focused on attempting to clarify my thought process (that we were talking about two entirely different types of disabilities), but can understand if it appeared that way.

 

But it wasn't my intention to stop you from imparting your knowledge about autism, I know your son is autistic so clearly you are very knowledgeable about it and would never attempt to stop you (or anyone) from voicing your knowledge about it.

 

I would never intentionally attempt to stop anyone from voicing anything, their knowledge, their opinion, not my style and I'm sorry it came across like that.

[Seraphim]

Actually I wasn't, my mind was more focused on attempting to clarify my thought process (that we were talking about two entirely different types of disabilities), but can understand if it appeared that way.

 

But it wasn't my intention to stop you from imparting your knowledge about autism, I know your son is autistic so clearly you are very knowledgeable about it and would never attempt to stop you (or anyone) from voicing your knowledge about it.

 

I would never intentionally attempt to stop anyone from voicing anything, their knowledge, their opinion, not my style and I'm sorry it came across like that.

Ok, now , we understand each other. :) It is sometimes though that you come across very brusque as in shut up. And then that gets my feathers up . So we can agree that you are not trying to be brusque on purpose but just trying to fix things in your mind .

[boltnrun]

Well, ironpony did write in his original post that his brother is autistic. In fact, I believe it's in the first 2 or 3 sentences.

 

Anyway...general consensus seems to be that trying to set the brother up with a 14 year old child is a bad idea all the way around.

[katrina1980]

Ok, now , we understand each other. :) It is sometimes though that you come across very brusque as in shut up. And then that gets my feathers up . So we can agree that you are not trying to be brusque on purpose but just trying to fix things in your mind .

 

Well yeah I admit I do get rather wound up sometimes, but in all fairness, so do a lot of posters when they feel they're being misunderstood, I don't think any of us intend to be "brusque" as in shut up, I know I don't intend to be, but I am emotional and again speak my mind, as we all should.

 

But yeah I'm glad we were able to come to an understanding too!

[Seraphim]

Well yeah I admit I do get rather wound up sometimes, but in all fairness, so do you, so do a lot of posters when they feel they're being misunderstood, I don't think any of us intend to be "brusque" as in shut up, I know I don't intend to be, but I am emotional and again speak my mind, as we all should.

 

But yeah I'm glad we were able to come to an understanding too!

Oh, yep, I do get irritated when I think someone is trying to shut me down. It is not respectful. However, I am FAR FAR less emotional a person than years ago. Anyone on this forum from a decade ago will tell you that .

[maew]

I don't know Cap, I would have to experience it, and perhaps would feel differently if it were happening, but remember the hypothetical 28 year old guy you're referring to is the same age, mentally, emotionally and chronically as the 14 year old, so would not consider it nearly as egregious an offense as I would a typical 28 year old becoming physical with a 14 year old, which I absolutely would have a problem with!

 

I dunno, I guess I'm just willing to open my mind a bit on this and at least consider other alternatives than simply automatically deeming him a pedophile and criminal and throwing him in jail. Mentally and emotionally he's still a child himself!

 

Not saying I'd be totally cool with it, but open to trying to understand it, that's all.

 

Ummm no. If an adult was trying to date my 14 yo I wouldn’t be okay with that. Even if his mental capacity was the same as hers. People should not be teaching anyone with a limited mental capacity to solve their problems by having inappropriate relationships... teach them how to deal with their feelings in healthier ways instead.

[SherrySher]

Is this a for real post?

 

That is considered illegal. It won't matter if he's autistic or not.

 

You can try it, but you'll be seeing an autistic man in jail and that's not cool.

 

Have the 14 year old date guys her own age and sign the autistic guy up to autistic dating sites (yes, they do exist).

[Hollyj]

Is this for real?

[WaywardKiwi]

Hey ironpony,

 

Really kicked the beehive with this post didn't you?

 

I quickly read through, and there seems to be a very clear consensus that it is inappropriate for a 26 year old to date a 14 year old. It is illegal for anyone to have sexual intercourse, or indeed any sexual contact, with a 14 year old. This is because a 14 year old cannot legally consent to sexual contact, and thereby all sexual contact is non-consensual at law. Some people have commented your brother would go to prison; this is not necessarily correct. Subject to the relevant mental health statutes in his jurisdiction, he may be determined to be mentally incompetent based upon his IQ and other psychological assesments. This would defeat the mens rea component of the sexual contact. However, if this were the case he will still likely lose his freedom, most likely for an indeterminate period, being ordered to be detained at a psychiatric hospital or facility for the intellectually disabled. The distinction may be largely academic, but there is a lot of very outraged comments here, and I just wanted to offer a slightly broader view.

 

Going back to the specific issue, I would recommend that if your brother is more or less developmentally 14 years old, then a romantic/intimate relationship is probably inappropriate for him in general at this time. It is impossible to really tell from your posts of course; there is a wide variation as to where exactly he is, and we are basing all our comments on our own experiences and knowledge, as the comments back and forth between katrina1980 and Seraphim indicate. I would say that seeking out groups where your brother can work on his social development in an appropriate way is key. If he continues to develop, even if at a slower rate, then when he equivalent to 16 (at least, preferably older), it would be more appropriate for him to date. I also agree that it would be preferable that he date someone who is either similarly developmentally challenged, to avoid them 'outgrowing each other', or someone who is accutely aware and prepared to accept this part of his life.

 

It's admirable that you care about your brother. You have said you are on the spectrum yourself, so I can understand your not immediately appreciating the inappropriateness of your friends suggestion. Again, I would suggest helping your brother socialise and internalise social norms and rules through group work and everyday interactions before seeking any kind of intimate relationship for him.

 

Hope that helps,

 

T

[abitbroken]

A 26 year old autistic man has the same physical urges as a 26 year old non autistic man.

If he is "mentally" 14 -- is that intellectually or emotionally? Intellectually, most of the day to day world is geared for people that have a 6th to 8th grade reading level.

So he is probably ahead of her in that regard and can do fine.

 

Okay - the legal issues have already been covered - but the rejection issue? Don't you think the 14 year old is going to reject him? because he is a creepy older man? Or if she actually were to date him against everyone's better judgement, if she makes friendships and grows socially, she is going to leave him in the dust very quickly.

[katrina1980]

I was thinking about this last night, and want to present a question for you (generic you) to ponder.

 

What if it were NOT against the law? What if the law stated that as long as the two people involved were at the same level mentally, emotionally, and developmentally regardless of their ages, it was acceptable and okay?

 

What if society deemed it okay? How would you feel then? Would you still find it as egregious and appalling?

 

I am not rendering an opinion either way cause frankly I don't know how I would feel, and of course the law as it stands now states otherwise and as law-abiding citizens we must follow.

 

Another question, specifically for those with a mentally and emotionally underdeveloped child over the age of 20 who let's say has the maturity level of a young teenager (not necessarily autistic).

 

What if he/she developed an attraction for an underage person and became physical with him/her? How would you feel if your underdeveloped son/daughter was automatically deemed a pedophile/criminal and tossed in prison because of this? Would you agree with the law in that case and also deem him/her (your own child) a pedophile and criminal?

 

I know lots of questions, but it's my nature to be curious and my nature to question, and imo so many different scenarios to consider. Again, I don't have an opinion either way, just presenting the questions because I think the topic is interesting and worthy of consideration and possible discussion.

 

And I like things that get people "thinking."

 

I don't mean to offend anyone, I just think all these situations relating to society, our laws and how they affect our thinking are worth considering.

 

I know at the very least I will be.

 

If you don't wish to answer here, I respect that, but thank you for listening!

[Seraphim]

I would find it appalling, yes. As a person who was sexually abused at 13 by 26-year-old man I find ANY sexual contact with a child with anybody even remotely close to adult abhorrent . It destroyed the vast majority of my life and I will have PTSD for the rest of my life . It is absolutely abhorrent . It is very very very uncomfortable for a 14-year-old child to actually have physical sex with an adult human being . Not to mention what if that 14-year-old gets pregnant ???? Who is now looking after that baby the 14-year-old or the other person also not competent ?

[Seraphim]

And 14-year-olds don’t need to get pregnant . They are at very high-risk for complicated delivery. Prolapsed organs . Stunting of their own growth because they are growing a baby not themselves . Etc etc.

[katrina1980]

Thanks for responding Seraphim and as stated previously I am so sorry you experienced what you did. And I totally respect your opinion on this.

 

There was a story many years ago about a 33 year old female teacher (Mary Lou Letourneau) who became emotionally and physically involved with her 13 year old student (boy).

 

She claimed he came on to her, and she spent 7 years in prison and is now a registered sex offender for the rest of her life.

 

When she was released from prison, they became involved again and are now married with children, I think they've been married for something like 20 years (not sure exactly how long).

 

Again respect how you feel 100% but wondering if the tables were turned and it was a young boy involved with a mentally and developmentally 26 year old woman, and he admitted HE was the one who "came on" to her, if folks would feel differently.

 

To be honest when I heard about that story, I was appalled!! She was also married with young children herself! And she was a college educated teacher who clearly was NOT mentally and emotionally underdeveloped. So yeah I thought it was wrong on so many levels, so perhaps I have answered my own question here!

 

Anyway, again thanks for responding Seraphim, I know this is such a hot topic and may ruffle some feathers, but again don't wish to offend anyone with my questions, I just find it interesting.

[Seraphim]

She is disgusting. Really.

 

Yes ,I would be very disturbed if someone came onto my adult child who was not ready for such a relationship . My own son has stated he knows he is not ready for relationships yet. I am sure he would like one but he wants to achieve some things before that . But he does understand very complicated relationship issues it doesn’t mean he’s ready for it though . Firstly he is not social enough . He is intensely reclusive and will spend at least 16 hours a day by himself exclusively . His life skills that present are very poor . He finds most touch abhorrent due to his autism. And sharing his space is completely out . He needs to develop more social skills and to be able to tolerate sensitivities better . He also knows his reciprocal conversation is not what it should be . He knows people don’t want to talk about Yu-Gi-Oh 16 hours a day . And he knows that so he will do it in his own time . People with autism can do almost everything or can do everything that other people can it will just be at a very much slower pace . At about 40 my son might be independent but he will always need someone to check on him . He will always need some kind of support system .

[yatsue]

The law protects children from adults, no matter their status, based on life experience. It is given if there are two people who are mentally 14, but one has more physical life experience, then it puts the other at a disadvantage. Even though your brother is mentally 14, it does not mean he is comparable to a mentally and chronologically 14 year old kid.

 

Why? Life experience = knowledge. Knowledge = superiority/power. The law aims to protect kids from inappropriately strong influences, such as adults looking for a partner with a child. The kid is mismatched and, despite the adult partner's mental state, will always be at a disadvantage. Whether it is from saying no, asserting their boundaries, making decisions based on their experiences, etc. It is not appropriate for a reason, other than it is against the law and he will end up in jail.

 

To kids, adults are role models. Again, despite their mental capacity. Kids typically follow the adult's example or lead, despite their own wants/needs. It doesn't matter if the two are mentally the same. The big thing here is one ultimately has more power in the dynamic than the other, which is inappropriate and disproportional. It only leads to problems.

[katrina1980]

The law protects children from adults, no matter their status, based on life experience. It is given if there are two people who are mentally 14, but one has more physical life experience, then it puts the other at a disadvantage. Even though your brother is mentally 14, it does not mean he is comparable to a mentally and chronologically 14 year old kid.

 

Why? Life experience = knowledge. Knowledge = superiority/power. The law aims to protect kids from inappropriately strong influences, such as adults looking for a partner with a child. It is mismatched and, despite the adult's mental state, will always be at a disadvantage. Whether it is from saying no, asserting their boundaries, making decisions based on their experiences, etc. It is not appropriate for a reason, other than it is against the law and he will end up in jail.

 

Great points yatsue and I tend to agree. I presented the question in earlier post about what if our laws were different, how society would feel, but our laws are put in place for a reason, a very good reason!

 

I did not answer this question yesterday because I had to think about it, just writing these posts gets me thinking about it!

 

I don't have children but imagining that I did, how I would feel if this were to happen to my 14 year old daughter -- a 26 year old man with the same mental, emotional and developmental capacities as my 14 year old daughter, wanting to date her.

 

I was honest with myself and didn't take long for me to realize -- NO WAY! I would be putting stop to that pronto!!

 

So I get it! Still think it's an interesting topic though.

[WaywardKiwi]

Hey everyone,

 

I am a little wary of jumping back in to this conversation, but I do have a little knowledge on it and I think it is important to acknowledge that:

 

In the vast majorities of jurisdictions, it is illegal for any person to have sexual contact of any kind with a minor. Minors cannot consent to sexual contact at law. Even where both parties are minors, and the contact is consensual (in a non-legal sense), it is possible in many jurisdictions that one of the parties could be charged with sexual contact with a minor. Clearly there are many factors that will effect any criminal proceedings related to this situation (i.e. the charges will likely be laid in the youth jurisdiction etc.)

 

I bring this up both for a practical reason, and to add to katrina1980's discussion.

 

Practically, this is important not only in the context of adults considering sexual contact with a minor (which obviously also carries a lot of moral, philosophical and psychological issues, as well as is likely to result in far more severe liability in criminal law), but also for parents of minors. If you child is a minor and 'appropriately' dating other minors, any sexual contact between those minors is very likely still illegal.

 

In terms of katrina1980's thought experiment, I think it's a bit difficult to say what my personal feelings would be had I been raised and educated in a society where it was acceptable. However, while I do think intimate/romantic relationships are important to human development during the late-teenage years (16+), I think that prior to this teenagers generally lack experience and cognitive ability (i.e. the ability to appreciate consequences, the ability to emphasize effectively, etc.) to really engage in these relationships. At this stage, friendships are more important. I guess it's kind of a spectrum, whereby interacting with peers as friends eventually evolves into interacting in more intimate ways. Of course, individual cases vary too. I think the major problem is that teenagers are full of raging hormones coupled with still developing cognitive abilities where they are prone to make impulsive decisions. They make mistakes in other words.

 

So, I think in general teenagers under the age of 16 (and probably older), are not necessarily well-served by intimate relationships with anyone (not just sexual, but of a romantic nature). Taking it slow and taking the time to develop cognitive abilities fully so they can appreciate consequences would be preferrable. Accepting, however, that it is part of 'growing up' and it does happen, I think the added complication of one person being developmentally challenged makes it much more difficult to ensure these relationships are as healthy as possible. Those individuals face even greater obstacles in their development, and they will commonly require extra guidance and support to develop the cognitive skills of empathy and appreciating social norms and consequences. Not only that, but the physical differences between fully grown adults and teenagers are such that there is a greater risk that poor decisions or risks taken will result in harm.

 

This was a bit rambling, basically, I think it is outright inappropriate, based on human development and the risks involved. I hope that made some sense. Also, while it's disgusting, you are completely right that there is a double standard when it comes to sexual assault on minors where the offender is a woman. Long laundry list of reasons why, but it does exist.

 

Anyway, just a bit of a rant because I am on a roll today.

 

T

[SherrySher]

Mary Lou Letourneau...seriously?

 

That relationship was always a sick one. A young kid who was essentially mentally messed right up over some sick, twisted, vile woman.

 

No, they are not together anymore and she did more damage along the way. She always wanted him to.."man up"...yeah, a young kid whom she destroyed, not man enough...is there any wonder why?

 

So this kid/man can now go through the rest of his life with really messed up ideas about everything, including himself, all thanks to this freakshow.

 

It's never okay, no matter if it's a woman or man who is older and is victimizing a younger person.

[katrina1980]

Mary Lou Letourneau...seriously?

 

 

Yes, seriously and as I said, I found it appalling as well.

 

And thank you Waywardkiwi for recognizing that I brought this up only as a "thought experiment" as you worded it, in an attempt to get people thinking outside the box.

 

I never said it was OK (I actually don't and my later posts reflect that) and I thank you for your very valid points.

[Seraphim]

I don’t know. I am the kind of person where some thoughts do not need exploration because they just don’t.

[Starlight925]

This whole thread absolutely sickens me, and I can't believe the moderators didn't put a stop to it from the first post.

 

To see that it's reached 10 pages is appalling.

 

Discussing whether an illegal activity should be pushed between two innocent people is shameful.

 

I'm absolutely disgusted by this.