Why has our society changed so tremendously?

[ThatwasThen]

I'll add that plenty of men still want to marry (the wedding business alone will verify that assertion) and it's often (more times then not) to those women who have show discernment and have actually waited until they know who they have been dating is somewhat emotionally connected to them before having sex.

[Hollyj]

they were both cheating...doesn't matter...70-30 isn't 50/50

 

 

and she is still being shady till this day

 

Oh. Didn't really follow the story - he is pretty irrelevant.

 

They are both shady, and she should have gotten 50%

[Ms Darcy]

Feminism has nothing to do with being able to enjoy sex without commitment. It has everything to do with knowing what you want, what you can handle emotionally and being able to compartmentalize lust from emotional response.

 

This is very true. I think before going off on "feminism" as an ideological concept, we have to remember that these issues emerge from personal conflict.

 

How many young women have we seen around here go on a date or two, have sex with a guy, keep dating and sleeping with him, and anxiously wonder if he's using her for sex? That's not about some societal ideology per se. That's about a young person going with their instincts without understanding the emotional ramifications and impact that sex has on them.

 

What I am more likely to see (though not all the time) is women going out and having random or casual sex because they fear appearing clingy or relationship oriented TO THE MAN. And squash their equally natural and instinctual desires for a committed relationship.

 

For me, maintaining sex within a relationship has always been about respecting myself, my body, and my boundaries. Being with someone with similar values, or who could at least respect those values happily, is very important to me. It's not some sort of exchange of physical access for commitment. Rather, it's another item on the compatibility list I check off when I am dating someone to see if there is a future there.

[Zaphod]

From a man's point of view - yes, I usually get emotionally attached to a woman if I have sex with her. However, I'm not sure this is so much to do with the simple act of having sex with her as it is the fact that I wouldn't be having sex with her unless I kind of liked her like that in the first place. It just reinforces it.

[Hollyj]

Basically what Paxkramer said.

 

Certainly in the Western world, women are far more likely to get custody, and men often get shafted for a lot of money in divorce (I know a couple of guys currently going through this) as well as having to provide child support for a child that is probably going to end up with the woman. I think a lot of men are realising that certainly in the western world, marriage heavily favours women, and are therefore a lot more careful about entering into it nowadays.

 

Not to mention that if you look at your typical marriage, this applies even down to the wedding day, which seems heavily biased in favour of the woman. Basically it's the woman's day with the man just kind of tagging along.

 

Yes. But, the woman has to raise the child. Shouldn't he have to help support his kid? There are also the deadbeat dads who make up 30%. That's a huge number, where the women have to carry the full load. I didn't look up the numbers for deadbeat moms. I looked it up, it's even higher. Yikes.

[Wiseman2]

You sort this while dating. As far as open relationships, just pass.

I'm looking for kids and marriage and I never find anyone who wants that....

There are men looking for that 519338&p=6612314&viewfull=1#post6612314"]

[j.man]

This is very true. I think before going off on "feminism" as an ideological concept, we have to remember that these issues emerge from personal conflict.

 

How many young women have we seen around here go on a date or two, have sex with a guy, keep dating and sleeping with him, and anxiously wonder if he's using her for sex? That's not about some societal ideology per se. That's about a young person going with their instincts without understanding the emotional ramifications and impact that sex has on them.

 

What I am more likely to see (though not all the time) is women going out and having random or casual sex because they fear appearing clingy or relationship oriented TO THE MAN. And squash their equally natural and instinctual desires for a committed relationship.

 

For me, maintaining sex within a relationship has always been about respecting myself, my body, and my boundaries. Being with someone with similar values, or who could at least respect those values happily, is very important to me. It's not some sort of exchange of physical access for commitment. Rather, it's another item on the compatibility list I check off when I am dating someone to see if there is a future there.

I agree. Where I think "Feminism" (not sure what we can for sure credit it to) has done is improved the social acceptance. More women, whether it ends up being a mistake or not, are openly giving it a shot. I think enough women are to where men are feeling less obligated to drive the whole "are you sure?" thing 4 or 5 times before going for it. As women become more equal, they're also being trusted with more responsibility, and that extends to representing their own interests as far as dating goes. Your last paragraph is a great example for women of your mindset to follow. I see women like yourself and ThatwasThen post and it's obvious plenty women are capable and are up to the task, but many other posts have me worried just with how apt it seems many are to infantilize not only themselves but others when they choose to blame the "hook-up culture" over a lack of self accountability.

[j.man]

Yes. But, the woman has to raise the child. Shouldn't he have to help support his kid? There are also the deadbeat dads who make up 30%. That's a huge number, where the women have to carry the full load. I didn't look up the numbers for deadbeat moms

I don't necessarily view divorce law as an inherently gendered issue. Any breadwinning spouse, man or woman, should take it very seriously that most states are no-fault when it comes to alimony, and most states won't uphold a prenuptial that blanketly says "no alimony." My girlfriend will be making much more than me. If we get married and 7 years goes by and I decide I want a dish on the side, I could bring the sex tape to court for all to see and still take her to the cleaners. However, the issue is gender divided because the economic reality reflects it. Even socially, I think it's fair to assume women wanting the man to make more or to provide is still the prevailing attitude. I do think the gap will close, but for now, I do think both men and women should understand the increasing hesitance among men in particular.

[Zaphod]

Yes. But, the woman has to raise the child. Shouldn't he have to help support his kid?

 

There's two possibilities to why this situation occurs :

 

1 - The man doesn't want anything to do with the kid. In which case, the woman gets the kid, and the man should pay whatever support is needed.

 

2 - Both the man and the woman want the kid. But the woman almost always wins here, which I always find a little unfair. Often, as is the case with a few people I know, the woman doesn't really give the man the access he wants, yet still demands the child support from him. With the guys I know, this has left them pretty heartbroken.

 

It was number two that I was talking about, although what you say would certainly be true and fair for number one.

[Hollyj]

There's two possibilities to why this situation occurs :

 

1 - The man doesn't want anything to do with the kid. In which case, the woman gets the kid, and the man should pay whatever support is needed.

 

2 - Both the man and the woman want the kid. But the woman almost always wins here, which I always find a little unfair. Often, as is the case with a few people I know, the woman doesn't really give the man the access he wants, yet still demands the child support from him. With the guys I know, this has left them pretty heartbroken.

 

It was number two that I was talking about, although what you say would certainly be true and fair for number one.

 

That's very wrong and hurtful to the child. People can be very manipulative and vindictive.

[Hollyj]

I don't necessarily view divorce law as an inherently gendered issue. Any breadwinning spouse, man or woman, should take it very seriously that most states are no-fault when it comes to alimony, and most states won't uphold a prenuptial that blanketly says "no alimony." My girlfriend will be making much more than me. If we get married and 7 years goes by and I decide I want a dish on the side, I could bring the sex tape to court for all to see and still take her to the cleaners. However, the issue is gender divided because the economic reality reflects it. Even socially, I think it's fair to assume women wanting the man to make more or to provide is still the prevailing attitude. I do think the gap will close, but for now, I do think both men and women should understand the increasing hesitance among men in particular.

 

You're so right! Obviously, I don't have kids. Wasn't thinking.

[TMifune]

Which I personally see nothing wrong with. I think it's great that female sexuality is being decreasingly apotheosized and that women can be more free to enjoy sex simply for what it is. Unfortunately, there is a pretty large caste of women who are struggling to find that assertiveness to not just communicate but uphold their standards as men have begun to take off the kiddie gloves and trust them to do so rather than assume themselves protectors of the woman's interests and feelings.

 

I wasn't really ascribing right or wrong to it. Just observing that as the availability of sex without commitment goes up, fewer people are willing to make a commitment. Now people do commit for reasons other than sexual access, but sex is a pretty powerful driver for many people.

 

I was really just observing the macroeconomic effects. If you flood the market with sexual availability, then the value of any individual person''s sexual availability goes down. That is what OP is noticing, and in her area it's to the point where men are advertising up front that they're not looking for commitment....i.e. they have enough sexual options available to them that they don't have to commit to have sex at roughly whatever frequency they desire.

 

None of that is the shame any individual woman's choices, only to point out that there are consequences associated with those choices, at both the individual and societal levels.

 

I agree. Where I think "Feminism" (not sure what we can for sure credit it to) has done is improved the social acceptance. More women, whether it ends up being a mistake or not, are openly giving it a shot. I think enough women are to where men are feeling less obligated to drive the whole "are you sure?" thing 4 or 5 times before going for it. As women become more equal, they're also being trusted with more responsibility, and that extends to representing their own interests as far as dating goes. Your last paragraph is a great example for women of your mindset to follow. I see women like yourself and ThatwasThen post and it's obvious plenty women are capable and are up to the task, but many other posts have me worried just with how apt it seems many are to infantilize not only themselves but others when they choose to blame the "hook-up culture" over a lack of self accountability.

 

J.man.....it's not blaming the 'hook up culture over a lack of self accountability." But you do have to recognize that the hook up culture removes external accountability from those unwilling to hold themselves accountable.

 

Ultimately though, it leads to more aggressive sexual pursuit and R-selected behavior by both males and females. Which makes it much more difficult for someone K-selected like the OP to find a like-minded individual....many of whom have had to adapt to the R-selected culture in order to be considered a sexual option at all.

[Zaphod]

Thats very wrong and hurtful to the child. People can be very manipulative and vindictive.

 

I know, right?

[TMifune]

What I am more likely to see (though not all the time) is women going out and having random or casual sex because they fear appearing clingy or relationship oriented TO THE MAN. And squash their equally natural and instinctual desires for a committed relationship.

 

And part of the reason for that fear is because those women know that the guys they're dating can get sex from other women without having to offer any commitment. I don't really see it as deniable that sex positivism has changed the dynamics of dating and sex. Whether that's a positive or negative thing is an entirely different discussion, I suppose.

 

The fear of appearing "relationship oriented" seems so counter productive to me. It would be the best thing in the world for relationship oriented women to allow that fact to drive away they guys who just want sex, and to make room for the guys who are looking for a relationship too. It just seems like begging to get the opposite of what you want.

[dave_1966]

What do you mean that men are getting stung? Women are 50% of the workforce, and are contributing their part.

 

I also think that a big part, is that sex is so readily available in the western world, so why get married. In the developing world, marriage is common and welcomed by both men and women.

 

In the West, the average length of a marriage is about a decade, and half of them end in divorce. Women instigate 75% of divorces, and if there are kids involved the woman will normally take the house, the husbands pension, alimony, etc. On top of that, if they meet someone new you may never see your kids again as a father. I know formerly successful guys who've ended up with nothing in a bedsit as a result of a divorce.

 

Men absolutely get stung by divorce, if marriage was a business proposition you'd run a mile and wouldn't invest a penny in it. Men are starting to avoid it like the plague, the falling birth rate in Germany was the reason why the government let in a million immigrants last year. The situation has spawned movements like MGTOW (which I find a bit weary tbh). There really is no attraction for any intelligent successful man to marry at all. I've had a woman I know say that if she was a guy she'd go nowhere near it. Guys in the developing world also don't have as much to lose in many ways, and more than likely don't have a legal system that matter of factly hands everything over to the ex wife.

[Zaphod]

In the West, the average length of a marriage is about a decade, and half of them end in divorce. Women instigate 75% of divorces, and if there are kids involved the woman will normally take the house, the husbands pension, alimony, etc. On top of that, if they meet someone new you may never see your kids again as a father. I know formerly successful guys who've ended up with nothing in a bedsit as a result of a divorce.

 

Men absolutely get stung by divorce, if marriage was a business proposition you'd run a mile and wouldn't invest a penny in it. Men are starting to avoid it like the plague, the falling birth rate in Germany was the reason why the government let in a million immigrants last year. The situation has spawned movements like MGTOW (which I find a bit weary tbh). There really is no attraction for any intelligent successful man to marry at all. I've had a woman I know say that if she was a guy she'd go nowhere near it. Guys in the developing world also don't have as much to lose in many ways, and more than likely don't have a legal system that matter of factly hands everything over to the ex wife.

 

Not to mention, as is so often demonstrated by posts on here, the woman splits up with the man in a LTR because he "doesn't want to marry" - again, breaking his heart, leaving him wondering what he's done wrong. This myth of the relationship "moving forward to the next step" - in other words, marriage. A veritable catch-22.

 

So many perfectly healthy relationships ended because of this social conditioning. Sad really.

[paxkramer]

Yes. But, the woman has to raise the child. Shouldn't he have to help support his kid? There are also the deadbeat dads who make up 30%. That's a huge number, where the women have to carry the full load. I didn't look up the numbers for deadbeat moms. I looked it up, it's even higher. Yikes.

 

That surprises me. Sobering fact.

[Seraphim]

Hey! My husband is extremely intelligent. He married.

[journeynow]

I Women instigate 75% of divorces

 

I wonder about this number, it may be skewed? Could it be "filed" vs. "instigated"? In my case, and at least one other I know, the guy left, wanted out of the marriage, but would not file the paperwork. My husband wanted a divorce, I didn't, but after 3 years I finally filed because he clearly was not coming back. So on paper I "instigated" it, but in effect, he did. In the other case, the guy left for another woman expecting his wife to accept it, but not bothering about the details (i.e., filing for divorce; so after some time and no change on his part, she filed).

[j.man]

I wonder about this number, it may be skewed? Could it be "filed" vs. "instigated"? In my case, and at least one other I know, the guy left, wanted out of the marriage, but would not file the paperwork. My husband wanted a divorce, I didn't, but after 3 years I finally filed because he clearly was not coming back. So on paper I "instigated" it, but in effect, he did. In the other case, the guy left for another woman expecting his wife to accept it, but not bothering about the details (i.e., filing for divorce; so after some time and no change on his part, she filed).

Thing is that depending on the study, men are somewhere between 100% to 200% more likely to kill themselves after a divorce than women. There's obviously something there that better serves the interest of the women (at least more generally than men) and I don't think the initiation rates are coincidental. Again, I don't mean it to suggest it's awful to be a man. My personal suspicion is a lot has to do with the concept of a single custodial parent. I think as joint custody is becoming more favorable with the courts, we'll see things improve.

[Seraphim]

Women often have a greater support system. Generally they stay emotionally closer to their families . They talk about their emotions with families and friends. Women often build emotional networks .

[SooSad33]

My opinion? Todays World! ugh!

 

First of all.. the way to meet is NOT always dating sites! It's full of messed people.

So many.. going from meting one.. to another.. to another. I seriously thin it's just messing everyone up!?

Probably the reason the success rate is so low!?

 

Maybe hang out more around places like sports events..coffee shops.. Scan.. dont do dating sites.

[Zaphod]

Hey! My husband is extremely intelligent. He married.

 

That's an oxymoron, surely

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

only j/k

[Gary Snyder]

Women have always been more interested in marriage and kids than guys. Nothing has changed.

 

How it usually works in the real world...... women hooks guy. Woman eventually wants to get married, so nice guy goes along with it because he loves her and relationships are women driven.

 

A little later, she wants to have kids and...... you guessed it, nice guy goes along with it because he loves her and relationships are women driven. When the kids are born he instantly falls in love with them and can't imagine life without them. Isn't it funny how that works! Life is stranger than fiction.

 

There are a lot of undesirables on dating sites, so I'm not surprised there are lots of guys who don't want marriage and kids..... that's probably part of the reason they are single.

 

Here is the rule for men: With women comes marriage and kids. A lot of guys are ignorant, don't know the rules and struggle. Too bad so sad!

 

If he wants it, he has to put a ring on it!

[Zaphod]

Women have always been more interested in marriage and kids than guys. Nothing has changed.

 

How it usually works in the real world...... women hooks guy. Woman eventually wants to get married, so nice guy goes along with it because he loves her and relationships are women driven.

 

A little later, she wants to have kids and...... you guessed it, nice guy goes along with it because he loves her and relationships are women driven. When the kids are born he instantly falls in love with them and can't imagine life without them. Isn't it funny how that works! Life is stranger than fiction.

 

There are a lot of undesirables on dating sites, so I'm not surprised there are lots of guys who don't want marriage and kids..... that's probably part of the reason they are single.

 

Here is the rule for men: With women comes marriage and kids. A lot of guys are ignorant, don't know the rules and struggle. Too bad so sad!

 

If he wants it, he has to put a ring on it!

 

I'd agree with the kids part, as it's a biological urge, but the marriage part's debatable, being down to social conditioning rather than anything to do with inbuilt biological needs.