It's Not the First Date, That Kills, it's the 2nd.

[ManyDates]

Sorry Sportster, I know it sucks but this is on you and I'll explain why.

 

You talked her right out of liking you - when she said "I want to move slow" that was a warning shot for you to CHILL. Never send "thinking of you" texts after 2 dates (never treat dates like girlfriends, to her thats you trying to lock her down to a relationship without coming out and saying it, its needy behavior, a massive turn off). YOU are day dreaming about what your kids are going to look like, but from her perspective she barely knows you - yes, this is how a woman feels after 2 dates - emotional beings vs guys that are visual.

 

If you can never get passed a 2nd date, then this has likely been happening to all of them - once you're in, you're ALL IN and scaring them off. Whether it be actions or words...these are the small things you're doing to run them off.

 

To excel at dating, you need to just hang out with them, kiss her so she knows you're into her, and do NOT talk about relationships or anything like that. That is HER job to make that call, not yours, and oh yeah, she will when she is ready - as long as your don't scare her off first.

 

At this point you have to remove yourself from the equation - any contact from you will push her further away "people tend to look at the past through rose colored glasses", so her being alone, not with you blowing up her phone with GF type texts, will get her remembering the walks you had, and not the screw ups you made.

 

No contact is extremely important right now for that reason - its not a game, its to see where her feelings go.

 

I'll PM you some links that will help.

[Sportster2005]

Sorry Sportster, I know it sucks but this is on you and I'll explain why.

 

You talked her right out of liking you - when she said "I want to move slow" that was a warning shot for you to CHILL. Never send "thinking of you" texts after 2 dates (never treat dates like girlfriends, to her thats you trying to lock her down to a relationship without coming out and saying it, its needy behavior, a massive turn off). YOU are day dreaming about what your kids are going to look like, but from her perspective she barely knows you - yes, this is how a woman feels after 2 dates - emotional beings vs guys that are visual.

 

If you can never get passed a 2nd date, then this has likely been happening to all of them - once you're in, you're ALL IN and scaring them off. Whether it be actions or words...these are the small things you're doing to run them off.

 

To excel at dating, you need to just hang out with them, kiss her so she knows you're into her, and do NOT talk about relationships or anything like that. That is HER job to make that call, not yours, and oh yeah, she will when she is ready - as long as your don't scare her off first.

 

At this point you have to remove yourself from the equation - any contact from you will push her further away "people tend to look at the past through rose colored glasses", so her being alone, not with you blowing up her phone with GF type texts, will get her remembering the walks you had, and not the screw ups you made.

 

No contact is extremely important right now for that reason - its not a game, its to see where her feelings go.

 

I'll PM you some links that will help.

 

What are you selling?

 

You assume every person reacts the same under every situation. I was inquiring about her well being, not sending her a 'thinking of you' text. I'm going to go on a limb, you want me to read someone's book?

[youareworthy]

Hi Sportster,

 

Gosh, including this one, this thread has 79 posts. I had no idea so much discussion would be generated by your 2nd date theory.

 

I find it all so fascinating. I'm learning a lot about the man's perspective on dating from reading the contributions of the male members. I have to say that all this advice seems confusing and overwhelming. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't know what to do if I were a guy.

 

Don't text, do text. Don't pursue, do pursue. Preserve your dignity, don't worry about dignity. Go slowly and build a friendship first, make her a priority. Don't try to kiss her on the second date, do kiss her on the second date.

 

It is a wonder any couple ever gets together with this morass of information.

 

Good luck to all you men out there!!!

 

Youareworthy

[TMifune]

I don't think it's always a male gender problem. A woman who has earned an unfair reputation or been the target of gossip could equally get looked over.

 

Not always. It's definitely a generalization. But I agree with LoveSoDeep below

 

Sadly, yes this could happen. You should hope that you choose to date women who are strong enough to have and keep their own opinions in that case.

 

However in defense of some of these women it's not always because they are sad and bitter....it's because they don't want to see their friend get hurt. I think they really do have good intentions for the most part. Also if the connection is strong the woman will go against what her friends suggest.

 

My point was....men don't do this "Talk it through with a friend" thing as much as women do and they may not realize it plays role here.

 

So I think it is largely a male gender problem. I also think that men, in general aren't as likely to be swayed by their friend's opinions.

 

For my part, I met my ex's one friend. We had dinner, maybe an hour and a half at most. She was fairly rude to me after spending most of the dinner telling me how she was sexually abused as a child. I paid for all three of us and she never even said thank you. We leave and she immediately texts my ex to tell her how much better she can do than me. Pretty much entirely based on my appearance. Now, my ex was still infatuated with me, so she got mad at her friend, but it set a tone. It affected her....she was hesitant to introduce me to other friends after that, and I think in the long run it's part of why she walked out on me......she was still attracted to me, but she was ashamed of what other people would think about me not being particularly attractive so she refused to integrate me into certain parts of her life.

 

I do believe women care about their friends. I think people in general have a tendency to give advice without understanding that the person they're advising is different than they are. So they give advice for themselves without adjusting it for who their friend is and how they're different. I do think some women are just catty and undermine their friends for their own purposes though. And it's not that men can't be too, but I think women care more about what the women around them think than most men do....so it's more effective when women do it.

[IAmFCA]

I have not ever seen women friends undermine one another for their own gain, except as they seem to do on reality tv.

 

I have seen women listen to the advice of their friends, enough to doubt their man when they might otherwise not. Also, enough to appreciate their man when they might otherwise not.

 

I don't know how this compares to the other gender; I suppose there may be a difference. My own friends are accustomed to me going my own way. The only close friend who got mad at me for it is a man. One of my other besties, a woman, simply said, No more talking about him! so we didn't. Easy enough. Once the misbehaving bf redeemed himself, she was able to listen to stories about him again. She was just ticked off that she couldn't yell at him herself.

[greta96]

I won't pursue women who are ONLY interested in friendship. Especially when they are on dating sites. I still think that was just weird. Especially since her profile made no mention of it. Or maybe she took one look at me and put me in the friend zone, but really liked my company. It doesn't matter I guess. The result is the same.

 

I only read the first few and the last few posts, and this caught my attention. I won't speak for the womankind in general, only for myself and a handful of female friends that I know think along the same lines I do - "I want to be just friends" in the context of an online dating situation is usually the kiss of death, a line we use when we don't feel any chemistry with the man and know we will never want a romantic relationship with him. Some women may use it when they are not emotionally available to a man, but wouldn't mind having NSA sex with him, so they feed him this line to ensure he doesn't get emotionally attached, therefore hurt down the road. Either way, it never signals anything good for the guy, so Sportster is smart to avoid those who tell him they are just looking for friends. People generally don't go on dating sites to meet platonic friends.

 

There will also be those women who want to be "friends first" and in those situations, what they really want to imply is that they don't want to rush into anything physical before some time has passed and they have had the time to gauge where the guy's head is at and what he may be (truthfully) looking for.

 

I disagree with some stuff ManyDates said, such as "Never send "thinking of you" texts after 2 dates (never treat dates like girlfriends, to her thats you trying to lock her down to a relationship without coming out and saying it, its needy behavior, a massive turn off). YOU are day dreaming about what your kids are going to look like, but from her perspective she barely knows you - yes, this is how a woman feels after 2 dates - emotional beings vs guys that are visual". There is nothing wrong with letting a woman know, after 2 dates, that you're thinking of her, us women don't get "scared away" that easily, IF we are interested in the guy. It's only a turnoff if we don't fancy the guy and have no interest in seeing him again. If we like him, we'd be thrilled to know he likes us too and he's thinking about us.

 

It's all subjective, and there is no "one size fits all" formula.

 

I agree with Sportster, the second date is usually more important than the first. On the first date, we know that everybody is generally on their best behavior, plus dealing with first date jitters and we expect some things to be awkward, which is why we usually want to see the guy again, to form a definitive opinion as to whether we want to keep seeing him or not (unless of course something catastrophic happens or he exhibits a major deal breaker on the first date, in which case there will be no second date). On the second date, many times walls drop, and inhibitions are being left at home. People act more like themselves, so it's only then that we get to see the real person.

[Ms Darcy]

I have not ever seen women friends undermine one another for their own gain, except as they seem to do on reality tv.

 

I have seen women listen to the advice of their friends, enough to doubt their man when they might otherwise not. Also, enough to appreciate their man when they might otherwise not.

 

I don't know how this compares to the other gender; I suppose there may be a difference. My own friends are accustomed to me going my own way. The only close friend who got mad at me for it is a man. One of my other besties, a woman, simply said, No more talking about him! so we didn't. Easy enough. Once the misbehaving bf redeemed himself, she was able to listen to stories about him again. She was just ticked off that she couldn't yell at him herself.

 

Just from my own personal experience, talking about guys is usually at the bf stage rather than the first dating stage. In addition, once they are at the boyfriend stage, I don't feel friends are usually trying to say negative things about the bf. What happened in the past was I had a friend who complained and complained and complained about her cheating bf. Of course, you want to be there and you are agreeing that he's awful. At one point, I said - well, you should just end this since he's cheating and you're miserable. Guess what? She stuck around and eventually they got married. And in HER memory, I wasn't supportive of her relationship. Ugh.

 

That taught me that people are going to do what they want to do. And I am very careful not to advise someone to leave people because - like you - people are going to do what they want to do. Especially with bfs/gfs. Men and women will stick around with partners they complain and complain about for their own reasons. And I've just learned to avoid conversations about their relationships with those people.

 

I can't recall anyone undermining a relationship for their own gain in real life either. I've seen it on TV soap operas though.

[IAmFCA]

Just from my own personal experience, talking about guys is usually at the bf stage rather than the first dating stage. In addition, once they are at the boyfriend stage, I don't feel friends are usually trying to say negative things about the bf. What happened in the past was I had a friend who complained and complained and complained about her cheating bf. Of course, you want to be there and you are agreeing that he's awful. At one point, I said - well, you should just end this since he's cheating and you're miserable. Guess what? She stuck around and eventually they got married. And in HER memory, I wasn't supportive of her relationship. Ugh.

 

That taught me that people are going to do what they want to do. And I am very careful not to advise someone to leave people because - like you - people are going to do what they want to do. Especially with bfs/gfs. Men and women will stick around with partners they complain and complain about for their own reasons. And I've just learned to avoid conversations about their relationships with those people.

 

I can't recall anyone undermining a relationship for their own gain in real life either. I've seen it on TV soap operas though.

 

Yes!

 

One of my dearest girlfriends says of her husband, He's so stupid! And so I say, now honey, he's been stupid since you met him.

 

Because, its true. She complained about him using those words from the get go. It isn't news that they get on each other's nerves. But they love each other just the same.

[lilygirl]

I never considered that. And I don't know what to do about it. I guess nothing. If I contact her and we chat and it comes up I will just tell her the reasons. During our conversation I mentioned I don't stay on there a lot. She may have concluded that I just deleted it, because it was just time. But if you're correct and she's thinking that, it lowers my already diminishing chances.

 

I think that is a good approach, if you chat again you can mention it. As I said, it is impossible to know, but in my experience with online dating/communicating so many things are often not what they seem, so we make assumptions, and I am not being critical here, as I don't think us online daters have a choice. When we are unable to see the person, hear their tone, read their body language etc. it is impossible not to.

 

Online dating is such a bazaar way to do things and is a terribly ineffective way of communicating. Real life is far more efficient. Can you tell I am burnt out by the online dating scene?

[ManyDates]

What are you selling?

 

You assume every person reacts the same under every situation. I was inquiring about her well being, not sending her a 'thinking of you' text. I'm going to go on a limb, you want me to read someone's book?

 

My god...

 

You do know the definition of insanity...right? Good luck with that.

[Sportster2005]

The worse thing than making a bad decision, is being indecisive. I've considered all the pros and cons, and I decided to let this go. I believe somewhere around the second and third date women, and perhaps men, make up their mind. I tend to believe women more so then men. And this might be a sexist attitude, but it's no intended to be derogatory. There are differences in gender. I think we definitely date differently, think differently and have different attitudes. It's just the nature of the beast.

 

I also don't seem to make the cut at this crucial juncture. But it's not all bad. At least I've identified where I'm weak and can do something about it. I've always suspected it. I'm pretty sure of it now. I think it might come down to eagerness and a bit of desperation. The eagerness is not necessarily bad. It's in my nature. I'm enthusiastic. It's one of the reasons I tend to end up leading in a group and attracting people. I suspect I have to learn to meter it better. I think it's part of the reason this woman was attracted. She knew I liked her. I was never over the top, I didn't think so. The problem is a bit of desperation mixed with eagerness spoils the whole broth.

 

Most of my desperation stems for being mostly single for going on nine years. So when something like this comes along it's difficult to let it unfold naturally. I feel like a doggie in the window. Perspective pet owners come in they look you over, they pick you up, you get excited and they put you back in the cage. So you accept your cage and go about your business. Then it happens again, and again. Meanwhile all the other doggies get picked. But you're still happy. But after a long time when you get picked up and scratched behind the year, and you really get excited, and you want to go, and you start to get desperate to leave. I don't know if that's a good comparison at all. And I might be too self critical. Although I sent one 'bad' text, I think if you asked her I don't think she would say he was too needy and insecure.

 

Which makes this disappointment a little more perplexing and frustrating. If this is all takes to spook a woman away I'm not very optimist. Her phone was never 'blowing up' with texts. Only once I mentioned a late text. And I've been through that. If an admission that I've tended to go too fast in the past spooked her, then.. well I'll guess I'll keep that to myself. It was said lighthearted and we joked about it. I emphasized how great and important and how I was in agreeance with taking our time. I don't think a reasonable person would be too concerned. But I am biased. Maybe that's exactly what a reasonable person would think. Regardless, I have no intention of dating women that want to go fast and I have no intention of going fast myself. Best to keep it to myself. Why introduce doubt in the first place.

 

And ultimately for all my ruminating it could be one of many other reasons. She could have simply found someone more interesting. She may have lost all desire to date when her dad took ill. She may still text me someday.

 

But most importantly I have to take my own advice that I have given many times. At the end of the day we never usually know why they left. Just accept they have and move on. Revisit things you think you could have different, but don't dwell, and don't be indecisive. It only prolongs agony.

 

And maybe I wasn't this guy. This is from her profile. It's a pretty high bar. At least I came close. She was very good looking, sweet and funny, and athletic. I do feel I'm doing some things correct. Just have to keep plugging away.

I'm looking for that special someone to spend my time with, who gets my heart going, who I can't wait to see.

 

Thanks for all your responses. Big hugs all around.

[Sportster2005]

My god...

 

You do know the definition of insanity...right? Good luck with that.

 

Sorry, I'm not very enthusiastic about the dating self help industry. I looked at it with an open mind. It struck me as pop psychology pablum. There is no silver bullet. There is no full proof system. The only consensus among all these experts is to be confident. Hardly an epiphany.

 

Thank you though. I do appreciate your input.

[IAmFCA]

Sportster, it never fails that I learn from you. I heard you loud and clear describing the eagerness. Maybe I need to meter it better. Yes! But I don't want to! Like you, I like my eagerness, my engaging manner. It's confusing though. Men think I am all in, when I'm not. I don't say I am, and I don't say I'm not, it's a first date after all. I will say something about whether there is a second date- that's as committal as I mean to be. It's like there is a soup, and two people throw ingredients into the pot, and one person says Bam! And the other says, huh, that's pretty good. That's a good date, right? Except, the playing field is uneven, and maybe it's because I am so ready to be engaged. And I am. I am hungry for engagement. Maybe I need to temper my eagerness, as you say.

 

I don't know, I'm rambling. It's your thread. Sometimes, this whole dating thing is too weird. You're a great guy. I think you would do well to have an agent represent you, lIke in baseball.

 

 

[lilygirl]

Sportster, I think you are very self aware and I believe that always serves one well, although it may not seem like it at times like these when we don't get what we want or things don't turn out the way we want.

 

I think it is hard not to be eager for those of us that are single and are hopeful to make a good connection especially when we meet someone we are excited about. I believe it is human nature and the puppy in the window analogy is spot on. I also think that when we make a good connection it comes together pretty easily and we do not have to triple check every single step we take so if I have to dwell and wonder about every move I make I know it probably won't come together.

 

It seems to me that there are many enthusiastic women on your threads, perhaps you should private message some of them... just sayin'

[Waraqqa]

The moment you see/hear/read "I want to go slow" or "I want to be friends first" RUN!!!! She is damaged goods and you'll find out shortly what that means in her particular case....

 

Bollocks! Some of my best relationships developed out of initial friendship, including the one I referred to as my "soulmate", so happy we were. And the worst two failures in my life were the cases where the person wasn't a friend to begin with, or dodged that suggestion trying to get me into bed sooner. When I see the person is worthwhile as a friend and doesn't priorize sex over actual connection, my confidence in him grows, and I can envision a relationship. It doesn't have to be a long period, but enough to get to know each other on a platonic level before jumping onto physical - because once that jump happens, the judgement is compromised by hormones, and that's trouble. The jump should be made when you are at least relatively confident you can trust that person. That's how it works for me, and I am definitely not "damaged goods".

[faraday]

why is it ok for a woman to fade away and not a man?

 

Men are allowed to fade away.

 

I would prefer that a man fades rather than giving me the "it's not you, it's me" speech (that's actually code for "no, it's really you, not me") after a date or 5.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sportster2005]

 

It seems to me that there are many enthusiastic women on your threads, perhaps you should private message some of them... just sayin'

 

Then I would be ranting about long distance relationships all the time Believe me, I think there are a lot of fantastic women here.

[Sportster2005]

Men are allowed to fade away.

 

I would prefer that a man fades rather than giving me the "it's not you, it's me" speech (that's actually code for "no, it's really you, not me") after a date or 5.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I think there is a happy middle ground. I don't like the fade, and I don't like excuses or reasons. A simple "we are not a good match", is all I need. Also it depends how long you've been chatting and dating. If it's just a couple of emails on pof I would find it weird if they didn't fade and said something. But after a couple of dates and a few weeks of talking, I would like PFO text or email. Just has to be simple, to the point.

[lostandhurt]

sportster,

 

You are very reflective and open about all this and I would think putting this out there is very catharsis. Thank you.

 

As you know you can do everything right and still have an outcome you did not want. Don't beat yourself up for being you.

 

Now I haven't dated in over two years now but reading here and my own experiences have shown me that very attractive women like you date have tons of options. Human nature tells us when there are a lot of options we tend to have a lot of trouble making up our minds so we keep sampling to find the one that is just right. In this case I believe she liked you but I also believe she had possibly 50 new men message her between when you first had contact with her online and when she faded on you. That number is probably conservative as I have know women that get 50 messages a day or more. This leaves you being judged against her vision of these potential suitors. She has met you and likes you but she has all these other options and several of them have intriguing qualities she really wants to see for herself. That leaves you on the "maybe pile" unfortunately. Some stay on the pile and wait while others climb down and go about their lives.

 

This is the nature of online dating. I am going to start a new thread on an experience I had a few months back that gave me much to ponder.

 

At the end of the day you did all you could do and even admitted to a mistake or two to learn from so I don't see this as a failure.

 

It sounds like you have a very full life and I am happy for you.

 

Lost

[faraday]

I don't buy that whole "too many options" thing. Having options has never made me think, "so many men to choose from! I want to date them all!"

 

It's made me want to pick one that I like and get out of the revolving door. It's exhausting meeting new people all the time. Its exhausting setting up dates all the time,remembering where each person lives, what they do, how many sisters they have...It's exhausting getting dressed up nice, making sure I'm "on" for a meet, meeting someone new...

 

When I meet someone I like...I can't wait to get off a dating site. I can't wait to only have to remember his set of circumstances, his stories....and what I wore for our last date (without getting it confused with some other guy...nothing like wearing the same yellow dress to four dates to show your diversity, right

 

I think serial daters are rare. I think most people are looking for someone they like, and want to date just one person. Most people don't want to serial date for months or years on end. It's a lot of work!

[reinventmyself]

I have personally thrown out the `friends first' and `take it slow' rule. Not because I have commitment issues, but rather I know for myself that nothing good comes from rushing into things. More than half the men I meet online are looking for 'insta relationships' or hook ups. It's my way of letting them know I don't move quickly on these things and it weeds out those who do. They either don't want to put in the time, I am not the one for them or they aren't getting lucky tonight. All the above is quite alright by me

 

I will tell you that dating more than one person at a time helps to take the (hyper) focus off the outcome of one. Gosh, it's difficult and time challenging, not to mention not in my nature. But I tried it a few times and it creates a shift in the dynamic even if it's on a subconscious level. I didn't have the time to try to decode all the subtleties you describe. .and yes I have done more times than I care to count!! so I totally understand.

 

What I found was my dates were maybe a little more intrigued in a sense because I was able to stay in the moment and honestly a little more fun to be with and not attached to the outcome because I have another date coming down the pipe.

Of course there is always one I am more interested in then the other but I squash those feelings until I see signs otherwise.

 

I will also tell you by doing this I was utterly exhausted and at times I had to push myself,

but I hate to say it. . it helped my dating experiences.

 

As far as the girl in question. It appears you've come to your conclusion.

Brush it off. . Dating sucks at times.

Necessary evil I suppose.

Good luck

[reinventmyself]

came back to add. . from your description and the mention of momentum. . It did appear that there was a momentum but she threw a chi*K in the chain to change it. I am not certain if she tried to kill it but she definitely seemed to slow it down. Not sure if it's completely dead in the water.

People can sense if someone is trying to sweep them up in some kind of momentum. I don't know her motive for changing it but try not think it had anything to do with you.

[lostandhurt]

The options thing is real as I have female friends that have admitted to me it has influenced them greatly. Now most of them are 40 to 50ish so that might make a difference.

Many have come from marriages where they feel like they settled so they simply are so set on not settling this time it consumes their view. Some may not be all that serious about finding the ONE either and like to browse through men.

 

Interesting enough the ones that want to get off dating sites and the whole dating thing seem to have the shortest lifespan on a site. They know what they want and know it when they see it. Unfortunately it is nearly impossible to tell one from another.

 

Getting hundreds of messages will affect choices in many

 

Lost

[reinventmyself]

sportster,

 

. In this case I believe she liked you but I also believe she had possibly 50 new men message her between when you first had contact with her online and when she faded on you. That number is probably conservative as I have know women that get 50 messages a day or more. months back that gave me much to ponder.

 

 

 

I will admit that this is the case when you first put a profile up. ~chum in the water and a feeding frenzy~ Is honestly what it feels like. Then it levels off, way off.

 

I have put a new profile up and when I start to chat to a couple of men, I hide my profile until which time it comes to fruition or not and then I put it up again. It keeps you new for sometime.

 

I probably shouldn't show my cards at once. Hmmm

Guys should try this as well. . just sayin'

[faraday]

The options thing is real as I have female friends that have admitted to me it has influenced them greatly. Now most of them are 40 to 50ish so that might make a difference.

Many have come from marriages where they feel like they settled so they simply are so set on not settling this time it consumes their view. Some may not be all that serious about finding the ONE either and like to browse through men.

 

Interesting enough the ones that want to get off dating sites and the whole dating thing seem to have the shortest lifespan on a site. They know what they want and know it when they see it. Unfortunately it is nearly impossible to tell one from another.

 

Getting hundreds of messages will affect choices in many

 

Lost

 

A lot of my friends did this right after their divorces.

 

That's why it's important to find out early when someone's last relationship ended, and what they're looking for.

 

If you has asked any of my friends, they would have said, "I'm looking to have fun."

 

That's a completely different thing than just a regular woman/man on a dating site that gets a lot of messages....it has nothing to do with the options themselves, but not wanting to tie themselves down again.