It's Not the First Date, That Kills, it's the 2nd.

[Sportster2005]

Capricorn, thanks, but I'm well aware of how this sounds and I don't need the scolding And I've been going to therapy regularly for some other stuff. I'm doing my part.

 

I more meant that I just hate the proces of dating. It's exhausting. Unfortunately, as a guy, I can't rely on "it'll happen when you least expect it" or "you don't find love, love finds you." That applies to women, mostly. And I never said there's anything wrong with being alone. I've been mostly single for three years now, and I'm actually much better at it than my posts may sound. I was sort of venting because this thread (to me) was somewhat similar to what I've been feeling. I HAVE been taking a break, as I thought was able to be inferred from my post.

 

But at the end of the day, no one wants to be alone. So as much as I hate the process of dating, I just have to suck it up if I want a relationship. But to your point....Maybe I need some more time. I know many people who hated dating just as much, forced themselves out there, and are now married.

 

Go for it. That's a lot of interest. That should give you some confidence. I find even in my darkest hours it only takes a couple of small victories to turn things around. This most recent episode to me has been encouraging. Yes, initially the final outcome was frustrating. But as the days slip into weeks, I see positives and feel good about. I met a woman whom I found beautiful, engaging and drop dead sexy. The two meets we had lasted hour and we never stopped talking. And I think she was genuinely interested. The resolution wasn't what I had hoped for. But I'm doing some things right. And obviously you are too. The best way to turn things around is to learn from the defeats, but most importantly celebrate some victories. My gawd man, I would go on a week long party if I received 45 emails. Take the positive momentum and run with it.

[John John]

Go for it. That's a lot of interest. That should give you some confidence. I find even in my darkest hours it only takes a couple of small victories to turn things around. This most recent episode to me has been encouraging. Yes, initially the final outcome was frustrating. But as the days slip into weeks, I see positives and feel good about. I met a woman whom I found beautiful, engaging and drop dead sexy. The two meets we had lasted hour and we never stopped talking. And I think she was genuinely interested. The resolution wasn't what I had hoped for. But I'm doing some things right. And obviously you are too. The best way to turn things around is to learn from the defeats, but most importantly celebrate some victories. My gawd man, I would go on a week long party if I received 45 emails. Take the positive momentum and run with it.

 

Thanks pal. I'm thinking about it. I don't know if any of those girls who wrote me are girls I'd be into (I think at least two are, as Match teases you when you're not an official member, and only shows you pictures of like every ten emails you get), but you're right...it is a lot of interest. I was shocked. I've never had such a flurry of emails before in such a short amount of time. I felt like a hot woman! lmao

 

And I know what you guys are saying "even small victories (great dates, great conversations, etc.) count,"...but to me...I want a relationship. So if it fizzles out after a few dates, I don't look at it as a victory. Guess I need to adjust my mindset, and I've been working on that. Therapy is helping a bit. I'm trying to do my part.

[Sportster2005]

I think dating is hard for both genders pretty equally women can't "just let it happen" anymore either..,,all of my friends that think I'm "sl*tty" or "desperate" for online dating (apparently stereotypes still exist) are all still single. Weird, right? But the view from the high horse is good so I just look up at them and smile "yup, I'm a total sl*t for having met strange men in coffee shops." (and go home and cuddle on the couch with my cute bf).

 

You have to put yourself out there no matter what gender you are. Women have to do the initial bit to get the guy to talk to her (it's very rare for a man to walk up to a completely cold woman that's ignoring him...and ask her out), she has to "drop her handkerchief" (so to speak)...like: ask him for the time, smile at him, make eye contact, some kind of "hey, I'm here and open to talking to you" thing...and then it's up to the guy from there. Unfortunately a bunch of you men folk are oblivious and so nothing happens or we sign up online and deal with penis pictures and guys inviting us to their homes "for dinner" as a first meet.

 

Idk...it's not easy on either side...and it's important to remember that. It's important to remember how hard it is for the guy to ask you out with the right timing, guessing your interest through text...knowing the last 3 girls stopped talking to him because his timing was off (too slow and she got bored, too fast and she thought he was a creep)...and it's important for men to remember that she is going through all the penis pictures, the guys with complexes about their height (and I only mention this one because your brought it up- my average date was 5"8), or the guys whose moms come over to clean their houses and do their laundry...and she's meeting you, a stranger, in the dark at some coffee shop...hoping you're not going to date rape her.

 

Idk. When I talk to my bf about online dating, and he says, "I'm so glad I'm not a chick! How did you stay on there long enough to meet me?" And I hear his stories, and I say, "thank god I didn't have to deal with all those flakes, I'd go crazy! I never want to be a man."

 

Dating isn't for the faint of heart. But neither is anything that is actually worthwhile. You have to play the game. Put all your chips in. Risk losing it all. And some time you do. But you pick yourself back up again and try again. And sometimes you win. And that makes it worth it.

 

Idk...I feel like every jerkface that broke my heart, stood me up, made me cry, made me question why...has turned me into the person that's right for my bf. They led me down the road to becoming the person that I am today.

 

The road was hard. It sucked. And I could have become bitter. I could think all guys are a**holes...I certainly met a few that made me wonder at times lol...but I chose to let those experiences shape my boundaries...cultivate a thicker skin...learn to become more empathetic...those jerks made me want to become a better person...because the world needs more good people. Those jerk faces also taught me to date "nice guys". They drove it into me that while a guy with edge is hot, he'll also cut you with it. If I had met my bf 5 years ago...I wouldn't have taken a second look at him. He was too wholesome, too nice. Now...I know that's what I want.

 

Let the negative experiences in your life make you a better person. Stronger. Kinder. Better boundaries. More decisive. Let them shape you into the person that the person you envision yourself with...would want to be with.

 

I nominate this for post of the month. Beautifully put faraday. Take a bow.

[Realitynut]

Then as I'm recalling the story to her I'm thinking maybe I'm making the same mistake.

 

 

Ya think??? Laughed about the 'peck' part. My soon to be ex (haven't talked to him now for 2 days! lol) said that when I finally was gonna let him kiss me (10 months into knowing him!) he was gonna do it RIGHT. He said he was gonna start seeing other women.....and I didn't like that idea. We had been talking daily...and almost seeing each other every day also. So when I found out that he went out with a woman, I was hurt. Then I guessed who she was! Small group of us kayakers....we don't have a large group to choose from in dating! lol

 

Anyway...this short story is getting long. Soooo...I was hurt. I could tell he was gonna kiss me...so I thought...what the hell. In his mind, he told me later, if he was gonna have only ONE chance.. he better do it right. So he threw me up against the car and laid a BIG ONE ON ME! Whew. (and I liked it)

 

Yep. After all those months of not letting him kiss me...cuz...I mean...what happens if I didn't like it??

 

Now I have to go through the damn agony of not seeing him...and missing those passionate kisses.

 

I guess one just never knows.

 

I'm still pushing for you to give her a call....and then...lay one on her!

 

I also love good romance novels....

[Sportster2005]

Thanks pal. I'm thinking about it. I don't know if any of those girls who wrote me are girls I'd be into (I think at least two are, as Match teases you when you're not an official member, and only shows you pictures of like every ten emails you get), but you're right...it is a lot of interest. I was shocked. I've never had such a flurry of emails before in such a short amount of time. I felt like a hot woman! lmao

 

And I know what you guys are saying "even small victories (great dates, great conversations, etc.) count,"...but to me...I want a relationship. So if it fizzles out after a few dates, I don't look at it as a victory. Guess I need to adjust my mindset, and I've been working on that. Therapy is helping a bit. I'm trying to do my part.

 

Have you ever heard the expression 'eating the elephant a bite at a time'?

[Realitynut]

My gawd man, I would go on a week long party if I received 45 emails!

 

I had one guy email me on OKC that sounded promising. How long can I party on that?

We were a 96% match. He emailed me first. He has no pic....but actually was well off financially. According to him.

 

But then I found out he was an early morning perfectionist.....and I'm a late night slob.

 

I guess that's the 4% deal breaker.

 

He said he had all kinds of women that were a 100% match for him on the site. I couldn't compete with that....so I didn't respond.

 

sigh.

[itsallgrand]

I was reading TOVs initial post again and it made me think.

 

So many times have I met men who were commitment minded and when men are, it's very often OBVIOUS they are. And it's generally a good thing; especially for someone looking for a relationship too and wanting to quickly weed out the men who are of a different mind/in a different phase of life/out to play the field right now.

 

But also sometimes, once a man is in this state, it can be intimidating sometimes and intense. Almost like, it takes a lot of men a lot of time and experience to come to the conclusion that what they REALLY want is one woman to commit to and be loved by, and once they do, they go after it like a man with a serious plan and all chips in.

 

If a woman is not exactly as fully 'on' to the idea of commitment when she meets this man, it complicates things. And seeing how whenever (this last time included, it seems to be my MO) decided to enter a relationship, it was not with a fully fledged plan or goal to get into a relationship, I know the feeling of 'whoa hold on a second here...' all too well, and have passed by probably many very eligible men who I could have had great relationships with.

 

What's my point? Hmmm.

 

I guess when reading the story about the nice convo you had tonight with the lady, and your (cute) idea to reply to her talk of not looking for a relationship but 'leaving it to the universe', I thought "Whoa".

 

Timing is often such a key part of things.

 

And what TOV said about trust being a factor for women in attraction, it hit home for me personally. I have not ever declared to a man I was interested in "I want to be friends first", but maybe that's a matter of small detail. I do like time to get to know them, build a layer of trust in their character, before I'm even thinking of kissing them or seriously dating them (exclusive) or sleeping with them.

And I really love when a man takes into account my cues and makes the effort to adjust to my pace. (though within limits, obviously a man looking for something serious isn't going to tolerate flakiness or wishy washiness either, and will require seeing effort and interest, and that's good, how it should be!).

 

I'm just wondering if you aren't noticing some cues, or misinterpreting them, or in your zeal of finding someone you really like and can see as an honest prospect, are glossing over the cues a little bit...and in a way, this can push them away prematurely?

 

When someone says "I'm not looking for a relationship unless the universe sends it to me", I'd take that as a sign that now is not the time to rev the engine, so to speak, but take it cool and easy. Even wait for something parried back from her, to let you know, hey, but I do want to see you, let's get together sometime and I'll give this a go.

 

I could be way off base. Just some thoughts.

 

I also think that when it comes to Sportster and John John, two men with a lot to offer and who genuinely want a relationship with someone they can love and cherish, and be loved back, it's only a matter of time and time in the trenches (see faradays post) before they find that person who can appreciate them for all they deserve to be appreciated for and loved. And the women who find them, are going to be lucky in being appreciated and loved so much too, those relationships will be really meaningful ones.

 

And please never forget what it is you have to offer..because it really is so precious.

[Ms Darcy]

I just know height is super important to many women, so it bugs me sometimes. I'm not that short but I know many women prefer taller guys. And it is what it is...everyone has preferences, and that doesn't necessarily make them shallow.

 

I understand your perspective. I also think what people think is important is very much related to their perspective.

 

I have short male friends (two who are under 5'6") who are very well off and do not have any issues with dating (read: dating who they are interested in dating).

 

I also have a couple of guy friends without a college degree who feels like women only want a guy with a degree and who makes a lot of money.

 

And my Asian male friends who think women (read: white and Asian women) want guys of any other race.

 

And of course my overweight to obese female friends think a lot of men only want skinny girls.

 

So I don't want to negate your perspective, I just think that things that are specific to what one feels is a hindrance during his/her own dating experience becomes the prominent issue in dating they focus on.

 

What do you think?

[John John]

I understand your perspective. I also think what people think is important is very much related to their perspective.

 

I have short male friends (two who are under 5'6") who are very well off and do not have any issues with dating (read: dating who they are interested in dating).

 

I also have a couple of guy friends without a college degree who feels like women only want a guy with a degree and who makes a lot of money.

 

And my Asian male friends who think women (read: white and Asian women) want guys of any other race.

 

And of course my overweight to obese female friends think a lot of men only want skinny girls.

 

So I don't want to negate your perspective, I just think that things that are specific to what one feels is a hindrance during his/her own dating experience becomes the prominent issue in dating they focus on.

 

What do you think?

 

You're absolutely right. I think we all tend to focus on what we perceive to be our own hindrances when it comes to dating (I know I do). And I know you're not trying to negate my perspective

 

I still kinda believe that height is probably the closest thing we have to a "universal" (near universal) dealbreaker in the dating world. It's a preference that is shared by MANY women. Of course...this just may be my personal feelings clouding it (your male Asian friends may believe that THEY have the "worst" dealbreaker out there, same with your heavier female friends).

 

What helps a bit is that I tell myself that many women would be ok with my height and also that preferences do not make any of us bad people or even necessarily shallow. I have my dealbreakers too. It cuts both ways.

 

And itsallgrand...thanks for what you said

[IAmFCA]

I was out tonight with someone. There's a thread about her here somewhere She is someone I dated and liked, and then thought she lost interest. But in her case I eventually followed up with a few weeks later. And sure enough she was surprised I stopped contacting her. Unfortunately she was seeing someone by then. Asked me to stay in touch because it was new and didn't know if it would work out. I decided not to.

 

Hmm

Pattern?

[youareworthy]

John John,

 

I remember another thread about height started by a guy who was 5'5" or 5'6". That thread was really long, and many of the women posting tried to assure him (and you) that height was not an issue for us.

 

I will just say again that I have had four men I either had an LTR with or just found very attractive. The two taller one (5'11" and 6'1") ended up being quite unkind or outright abusive to me; the two shorter ones (5'6" and 5'8") were much better men in general, and to me in particular, and I greatly preferred kissing, hugging, holding hands, and other such activities with those two because the WERE shorter!

 

I agree with Ms Darcy, that we think OUR "deficiencies" are THE REAL ONES. How silly of us, don't you think?

 

Youareworthy

[faraday]

John John,

 

I remember another thread about height started by a guy who was 5'5" or 5'6". That thread was really long, and many of the women posting tried to assure him (and you) that height was not an issue for us.

 

I will just say again that I have had four men I either had an LTR with or just found very attractive. The two taller one (5'11" and 6'1") ended up being quite unkind or outright abusive to me; the two shorter ones (5'6" and 5'8") were much better men in general, and to me in particular, and I greatly preferred kissing, hugging, holding hands, and other such activities with those two because the WERE shorter!

 

I agree with Ms Darcy, that we think OUR "deficiencies" are THE REAL ONES. How silly of us, don't you think?

 

Youareworthy

 

I had a friend that was insistent that no guy would find her attractive because she was overweight. She thought I had it lucky because I was 30 pounds lighter than her.

 

I got sick, was put on steroids and gained 30 pounds. I still had no problem meeting men.

 

A lot of it is developing a thicker skin (because yeah, some guys that would have liked me before didn't)...and the other part of it...it's going to sound really cheesy...but it's just loving yourself. If you love yourself...if you think you're worthy of being loved and loving someone else...you'll have no problem. When you doubt yourself....feel unworthy...not enough...lacking...unequal...you become those things....not because you are, but because people are really good at picking up on others weaknesses...and no one wants a weak partner (unless they're defective themselves, ie: an abuser).

 

 

And to add to the short guy thing...I'm a 5"6 white girl, and I LOVE Asian/Indian guys and height isn't even on the radar. I've dated many men shorter than me...and I even wore heels on dates with them . But those guys...they didn't ever let me know if it bothered them when I wore heels. They always made me feel hot- which made them even more attractive to me.

 

Building on that...I think a big part of attracting someone is how you make them feel. That's why we respond more positively to smiling people...and why most people are more interested in positive profiles (the people that list the "deal makers" instead of their "deal breakers")....positive people make us feel good. So focusing on positives instead of deficiencies will reap better results.

[tiredofvampires]

This quite possibly could be the most boorish, judgmental, mean-ish thing I've ever said on ENA, but any person who has lived more than half their lifespan, loved and lost, and is dating with the dealbreaking criteria of height and income, doesn't deserve to get a partner. There, I said it.

 

Is this someone I hope to get old and hunched over with? How is their height going to keep my heart singing? How is their money going to keep the fire burning? Do I want a person to grow old with, or a talking mannequin and a wallet? Some things should stop mattering -- if they ever started mattering.

 

As for "preferences" -- let's get real. Just as different bodies of water are shallow or deep relative to each other, so are preferences. A preference for someone who isn't killing themselves with cigarettes and sporting ash for breath is not on the same level as a preference for someone who stands so many inches above your head while you're wearing heels.

 

Imagine for a moment a conversation like this.

 

Me

"Hi N, it's been a while. Hope you're dad and family are O.K. Would love to chat sometime, and go on the third walk, I really enjoy your company".

 

 

Her

Complete silence, or

 

Her

"Thanks Mike. Things are fine. I'm surprised to hear from you. After you went silent I met someone else", or

 

Her

"Thanks, Take care", or

 

Anyways you see where I'm going with this. It's been too long. Contact now would just be creepy.

 

I actually had something similar happen once. Sent an email to a woman that I thought lost interest. She responded saying she was very interested and was surprised and disappointed I stopped calling. By then though she just started dating someone. They were together almost two years. She's single now. We are meeting tomorrow. Not a date. She wants me to do some photo work for her.

 

And I'm pretty sure %90 I'm reading my current situation correctly.

 

If I run into her I will ask her. And if I'm wrong, oh you know there will be a posting on that. Complete with angst and tears

 

I know this sounds like I'm really picking nits here...but I think the way you nuance what you say has a lot to do with perception.

 

There is nothing technically "wrong" with what you wrote there. But compare the effect of that to this:

 

"Hi N. It's been a while, but I thought of you today and wondered how you've been. I hope things have gotten better with your dad's health? Anyway, if you're inclined, it would be fun to get together to catch up."

 

To me anyway, my version sounds more laid back. Yours sounds just a bit more intense.

 

I agree that at this length of time, it's not too long of a silence, and doesn't look creepy. As I said before I don't think that length of time apart necessarily means you've missed your chance. It's ALLLL how you present it.

 

And you never do know how someone's going to react. Again -- you really do do a LOT of second-guessing. I think it works against you, causing you to give up prematurely, among other things.

[youareworthy]

"Hi N. It's been a while, but I thought of you today and wondered how you've been. I hope things have gotten better with your dad's health? Anyway, if you're inclined, it would be fun to get together to catch up."

 

I love the idea of lightening it up!

 

I would skip the "It's been a while, but" altogether. Why bring it to her attention? If you are worried about the length of time, DON'T point it out, for heaven's sake!

 

Here's another version to throw in the hopper:

 

"Hi, N. Today I remembered your comment about __________; it made me laugh.

 

How's your dad doing? Better, I hope!

 

If you're up for it, I think it'd be fun to hang out."

 

 

Between your own goodness and the encouragement of our ENA "virtual village," you will end up in a good place, Sportster.

 

Youareworthy

[John John]

This quite possibly could be the most boorish, judgmental, mean-ish thing I've ever said on ENA, but any person who has lived more than half their lifespan, loved and lost, and is dating with the dealbreaking criteria of height and income, doesn't deserve to get a partner. There, I said it.

 

Is this someone I hope to get old and hunched over with? How is their height going to keep my heart singing? How is their money going to keep the fire burning? Do I want a person to grow old with, or a talking mannequin and a wallet? Some things should stop mattering -- if they ever started mattering.

 

As for "preferences" -- let's get real. Just as different bodies of water are shallow or deep relative to each other, so are preferences. A preference for someone who isn't killing themselves with cigarettes and sporting ash for breath is not on the same level as a preference for someone who stands so many inches above your head while you're wearing heels.

 

lol ToV is on the warpath today. Everyone get out of her way!

 

ToV - if this was me even a year ago...I would wholeheartedly agree with you. However...I have been learning to accept the fact that we all have things that we're attracted to and things we aren't. I'm more inclined to agree with you regarding the money thing. I think it's fine to want to date someone with a career. I want a woman with a career so all of the financial risk/stress isn't on me. I don't care how much she makes in particular, but she has to contribute something (this is 2016 - I don't want a stay-at-home mom). But if people (women seem to do this more) are using salaries as absolute cutoffs, then I agree with your sentiment.

 

In regards to height...it's somewhat of a sore topic me, because I'm on the slicing dock with this dealbreaker (my height is usually borderline for many womens' "requirements"). But I'm growing to accept it because I have my attraction preferences too. I'm not going to list them, because it doesn't really matter. Some women are just really attracted to tall guys, and attraction is a very important component of a relationship. If it's not there, it's a friendship at best. And so if some women need height to be attracted, then so be it.

 

HOWEVER - I do think there are some women who look at these "numbers" (with men, let's be real, it's mostly the pictures and our overall attraction or lack thereof for the woman in question) for height and salary online, and just use them as actual literal cutoffs. I think that is very superficial. Some women just want a guy that's taller than them, and the actual height "number" doesn't matter to them. That's fine. Some women don't even know what certain heights look like. At 5'8", I'm taller than/as tall as most women, and hold my own against a good amount of guys. But it's not 6ft, and for some women (even very petite ones), it's the number that's the dealbreaker. Same with salaries. And THIS mindset, I think, is wrong. There is a difference between being attracted to a general look (fit/tall/"at least as tall as me") versus focusing on the numbers (the number on the scale/our height in feet and inches).

[itsallgrand]

I think money/height is to some women what youth is to some men. I just steer clear of people with those priorities; we wouldn't be compatible anyways. And if we are talking about folks with more limiting cut offs that have little to do with what they bring to the table as a person, and more to do with what 'natural resources' they will provide for a partner, I think youth for women is the equivalent more so than weight ( which we do have some control over)/fitness to money/height . The thing is we do get to decide our values and what values we look for in a partner.

[John John]

I think money/height is to some women what youth is to some men. I just steer clear of people with those priorities; we wouldn't be compatible anyways. And if we are talking about folks with more limiting cut offs that have little to do with what they bring to the table as a person, and more to do with what 'natural resources' they will provide for a partner, I think youth for women is the equivalent more so than weight ( which we do have some control over)/fitness to money/height . The thing is we do get to decide our values and what values we look for in a partner.

 

I care about age in a woman, but only in the sense that I'd like to at least have the option to have children someday without having to get pregnant on our flight back from the honeymoon. But that's the only reason. If I knew definitively that I didn't want to have children, ever, I wouldn't care about height at all. I have been super hot for women significantly older than me (dated a woman briefly in her young 50s...she was hot). Hot is hot. lol

[lilygirl]

This quite possibly could be the most boorish, judgmental, mean-ish thing I've ever said on ENA, but any person who has lived more than half their lifespan, loved and lost, and is dating with the dealbreaking criteria of height and income, doesn't deserve to get a partner. There, I said it.

 

Is this someone I hope to get old and hunched over with? How is their height going to keep my heart singing? How is their money going to keep the fire burning? Do I want a person to grow old with, or a talking mannequin and a wallet? Some things should stop mattering -- if they ever started mattering.

 

I agree wholeheartedly ToV! I have been online dating for the past few years on and off and my experience is this... I do not match well with white men in the 40-50 age range (I am in my mid 40's and am white) and it seems that my weight is the deal breaker. I am not obese, am very active, and quite fit for a big girl but it just doesn't seem to fly with this crowd in my experience. Now, sure there could be another reason but the pattern seems to be this... I will get some messages, often enthusiastic comments about the head shot on my profile, so we start chatting and eventually the man will ask for more photos, so I send more and seriously 8 out of 10 times the conversation stops dead, DEAD. Not even a "thanks for the photos" and then fade out. I find this annoying and surprising as I would really expect that at this age there would be a little more flexibility on what one is looking for and I am chatting with average looking guys, some thin, some heavy, it does not matter it always goes in this direction.

 

In three years, I have met three white men in this age range that were okay with my weight. One was a twit, the type that held others to a higher standard than he expected of himself, and the other two announced that they were married once we met. The interesting thing is the most attention I get is from Indian and Middle Eastern men, they have no issue with my weight, and I have made some great connections. And now it seems that I date them exclusively. Sure, I will chat with white men but to be honest, my guard is up based on prior experience but not to the point I won't chat with them but I never expect it to go anywhere and so far, it still hasn't.

 

I know that these deal breakers are not exclusive to men, I have a friend who won't date guys under 6 ft 2, she is 5 ft 9. She hasn't had any luck for years. She is 45 and is sitting and waiting for this tall guy to show up one day and turning away potential suitors because of their height. Absolutely ridiculous!!!!

[faraday]

This quite possibly could be the most boorish, judgmental, mean-ish thing I've ever said on ENA, but any person who has lived more than half their lifespan, loved and lost, and is dating with the dealbreaking criteria of height and income, doesn't deserve to get a partner. There, I said it.

 

Is this someone I hope to get old and hunched over with? How is their height going to keep my heart singing? How is their money going to keep the fire burning? Do I want a person to grow old with, or a talking mannequin and a wallet? Some things should stop mattering -- if they ever started mattering.

 

I agree wholeheartedly ToV! I have been online dating for the past few years on and off and my experience is this... I do not match well with white men in the 40-50 age range (I am in my mid 40's and am white) and it seems that my weight is the deal breaker. I am not obese, am very active, and quite fit for a big girl but it just doesn't seem to fly with this crowd in my experience. Now, sure there could be another reason but the pattern seems to be this... I will get some messages, often enthusiastic comments about the head shot on my profile, so we start chatting and eventually the man will ask for more photos, so I send more and seriously 8 out of 10 times the conversation stops dead, DEAD. Not even a "thanks for the photos" and then fade out. I find this annoying and surprising as I would really expect that at this age there would be a little more flexibility on what one is looking for and I am chatting with average looking guys, some thin, some heavy, it does not matter it always goes in this direction.

 

In three years, I have met three white men in this age range that were okay with my weight. One was a twit, the type that held others to a higher standard than he expected of himself, and the other two announced that they were married once we met. The interesting thing is the most attention I get is from Indian and Middle Eastern men, they have no issue with my weight, and I have made some great connections. And now it seems that I date them exclusively. Sure, I will chat with white men but to be honest, my guard is up based on prior experience but not to the point I won't chat with them but I never expect it to go anywhere and so far, it still hasn't.

 

I know that these deal breakers are not exclusive to men, I have a friend who won't date guys under 6 ft 2, she is 5 ft 9. She hasn't had any luck for years. She is 45 and is sitting and waiting for this tall guy to show up one day and turning away potential suitors because of their height. Absolutely ridiculous!!!!

 

I don't think I could handle talking to someone, then sending them pictures and then having them disappear. That would mess with my head, and I think I have a thick skin.

 

You should put your full length pics in your profile. Then guys that aren't interested in you won't even contact you, and you won't have to deal with the rejection of them disappearing after seeing your full body pics. Then you know that the guys that are contacting you dig your body...and it's just the "click" you have to contend with.

 

Just my thoughts.

[IAmFCA]

 

I don't think I could handle talking to someone, then sending them pictures and then having them disappear. That would mess with my head, and I think I have a thick skin.

 

You should put your full length pics in your profile. Then guys that aren't interested in you won't even contact you, and you won't have to deal with the rejection of them disappearing after seeing your full body pics. Then you know that the guys that are contacting you dig your body...and it's just the "click" you have to contend with.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Agree. Full disclosure helps screen out people who are disinterested for superficial reasons, including superficial personality elements such as talkative or neat-freak or whatever. I try to put clues about all of that in my profile. If someone needs me home every day at 6, or needs me rail thin, etc., that's just never going to happen. May as well screen it out asap.

[lilygirl]

Thanks faraday and ITIC, this is a great suggestion. The head shot is actually upper body, you can tell that I am a big girl, but a full body shot would be best.

[reinventmyself]

I don't assume. Women online are explicitly saying it.

 

Some women are saying it. Not globally. Just like some men are.

(I've looked at women's profiles)

 

I brought the man I am dating into my circle of friends yesterday to watch the football games.

Interesting as there were 3 other men were there, the same age as my friend, but just by appearances one would have guessed they were all vastly different ages.

 

I don't get hung up on the number, as long as you have taken care of yourself, are youthful (for your age) and active.

(I think you fit all 3, Sporster, though your picture is no longer visible)

 

I've met (and dated) younger men that are couch potatoes and looked like they would be my older uncle

It's all relative.

[Sportster2005]

I was reading TOVs initial post again and it made me think.

TOV will do that

 

What's my point? Hmmm.

 

I guess when reading the story about the nice convo you had tonight with the lady, and your (cute) idea to reply to her talk of not looking for a relationship but 'leaving it to the universe', I thought "Whoa".

 

I wasn't serious. Though it would be funny and clever. But the situation requires more deft handling. The short of if it for this particular woman is, she seems to be taking the lead, and really taking her time. She knows I like her. She knows I know that she knows I like her. I don't know how much interest is reciprocated, if any. There's more to this story, but not very pertinent here. Suffice to say last night was probably the most fun we had going out. And it wasn't a date.

 

Timing is often such a key part of things.

 

And what TOV said about trust being a factor for women in attraction, it hit home for me personally. I have not ever declared to a man I was interested in "I want to be friends first", but maybe that's a matter of small detail. I do like time to get to know them, build a layer of trust in their character, before I'm even thinking of kissing them or seriously dating them (exclusive) or sleeping with them.

And I really love when a man takes into account my cues and makes the effort to adjust to my pace. (though within limits, obviously a man looking for something serious isn't going to tolerate flakiness or wishy washiness either, and will require seeing effort and interest, and that's good, how it should be!).

 

I'm just wondering if you aren't noticing some cues, or misinterpreting them, or in your zeal of finding someone you really like and can see as an honest prospect, are glossing over the cues a little bit...and in a way, this can push them away prematurely?

 

Perhaps. I've conceded earlier I may have been eager. Here's how I see it today, after the passage of some time. The last time we spoke in person I was careful to hear what she said. I listened as best I could. I repeated back what she said in some instances, whilst agreeing. i.e. "Yes, I agree, let's take it slow, I would enjoy that and think it's the best way forward". I don't remember verbatim what she said about friends. It ended roughly with the idea she didn't just want a relationship without a friendship. She believes that friends won't let you down, and everyone she knows she's known her whole life. I was O.K. with that. I don't if she said 'friends first' verbatim. She did stress how important the concept was to her. She did not say 'just friends'.

 

This was congruent with her demeanor and body language. We were comfortable bumping into each other on the hike. On the first walk we kept her distance. She smiled a lot. We let our eye contact linger. She laughed a lot. I think one thing I can gauge fairly well is the kiss. There's a difference between allowing a kiss, and wanting a kiss. She wanted a kiss. I would bet my life on it.

 

She was explicit in setting down her blueprint for how she wanted to succeed. I agreed to it explicitly and enthusiastically.

 

If there were cues involved some subtly I missed, then here's my thinking. I can't care. I make a best effort. That's all I can do. I regret the text I sent. I wouldn't do that again. I won't in the future. Everything else I would do identical without exception. That is who I am, that is what I'm like. Love it or leave it. She left it. That's her prerogative. I can't read minds or try to analyze small cues or hints. She was straight forward, saw was I.

 

For arguments sake, let's say I spooked her. My thinking today is, not my problem. Yes it was disappointing. Should I waste any more energy on it, no. If all it took was some silly off hand joke for her to turn around and quash a fledgling potential relationship, then I have to conclude she's probably a little skittish and not as stable as maybe I originally thought. I mean really think about it. It's hard for both men and women to connect. It's rare. Her option was to continue, even if there was creeping doubt, or go back to POF. At the risk of sounding immodest I was the better option. Even considering the poorly times text, the quipping and eagerness, I think someone reasonable and serious would have chosen to continue. I can't make her decisions for her. I think it's unfortunate, for both her and I.

 

 

 

When someone says "I'm not looking for a relationship unless the universe sends it to me", I'd take that as a sign that now is not the time to rev the engine, so to speak, but take it cool and easy. Even wait for something parried back from her, to let you know, hey, but I do want to see you, let's get together sometime and I'll give this a go.

Couldn't agree more, see above.

 

I could be way off base. Just some thoughts.

Not at all. Thank you for your thoughts.

 

I also think that when it comes to Sportster and John John, two men with a lot to offer and who genuinely want a relationship with someone they can love and cherish, and be loved back, it's only a matter of time and time in the trenches (see faradays post) before they find that person who can appreciate them for all they deserve to be appreciated for and loved. And the women who find them, are going to be lucky in being appreciated and loved so much too, those relationships will be really meaningful ones.

 

That is very kind of you. Thank you, and right back atcha.

 

 

And please never forget what it is you have to offer..because it really is so precious.

[Sportster2005]

Some women are saying it. Not globally. Just like some men are.

(I've looked at women's profiles)

 

I brought the man I am dating into my circle of friends yesterday to watch the football games.

Interesting as there were 3 other men were there, the same age as my friend, but just by appearances one would have guessed they were all vastly different ages.

 

I don't get hung up on the number, as long as you have taken care of yourself, are youthful (for your age) and active.

(I think you fit all 3, Sporster, though your picture is no longer visible)

 

I've met (and dated) younger men that are couch potatoes and looked like they would be my older uncle

It's all relative.

 

Yes some. That is what I meant, even though I didn't say it explicitly.

 

And thank you

[Sportster2005]

This quite possibly could be the most boorish, judgmental, mean-ish thing I've ever said on ENA, but any person who has lived more than half their lifespan, loved and lost, and is dating with the dealbreaking criteria of height and income, doesn't deserve to get a partner. There, I said it.

 

Is this someone I hope to get old and hunched over with? How is their height going to keep my heart singing? How is their money going to keep the fire burning? Do I want a person to grow old with, or a talking mannequin and a wallet? Some things should stop mattering -- if they ever started mattering.

 

As for "preferences" -- let's get real. Just as different bodies of water are shallow or deep relative to each other, so are preferences. A preference for someone who isn't killing themselves with cigarettes and sporting ash for breath is not on the same level as a preference for someone who stands so many inches above your head while you're wearing heels.

 

No arguments from me. I don't get the height thing, and I just click next. But I must say every time I see someone mention their height preference in context of their heels I can't help but roll my eyes. It's one thing to be seen with a man every single day who is shorter, but only days they are wearing high heals???? The mind boggles. Do these people lay in bed at night wondering why they are single?

 

But some encouraging news. The woman I was out with last night is 5'9". We were talking about preferences. I made the comment about how many women, the overwhelming majority, insist on taller men. She gave me a WT F kind of look. She was quite surprised. Her ex bf was 5'7". Here's a woman who has two degrees, owns and runs a successful business, athletic, and as pretty as they get. Friendly, classy, well you get the picture. Couldn't care less about height. Some faith in humanity restored.

 

I know this sounds like I'm really picking nits here...but I think the way you nuance what you say has a lot to do with perception.

 

There is nothing technically "wrong" with what you wrote there. But compare the effect of that to this:

 

"Hi N. It's been a while, but I thought of you today and wondered how you've been. I hope things have gotten better with your dad's health? Anyway, if you're inclined, it would be fun to get together to catch up."

 

To me anyway, my version sounds more laid back. Yours sounds just a bit more intense.

 

I agree that at this length of time, it's not too long of a silence, and doesn't look creepy. As I said before I don't think that length of time apart necessarily means you've missed your chance. It's ALLLL how you present it.

I dunnoh. It's one of those things. If someone is really interested it's hard to screw up. I could text. "Do you like cats? Me and you diner at 9:00, be there or be square". And she would be excited and go buy a cat and meet me for diner.

 

If she's not interested not even Shakespeare or Cyrano de Bergerac could come up with the right words. Yes I'm being glib. And it's moot because I'm not going to message her.

 

And you never do know how someone's going to react. Again -- you really do do a LOT of second-guessing. I think it works against you, causing you to give up prematurely, among other things.

 

Seems to be becoming a consensus