It's Not the First Date, That Kills, it's the 2nd.

[Ms Darcy]

(Meanwhile, has anyone seen our host? Lol, he opened his house for this party and we've lingered in his living room drinking his bar dry for days.)

 

I think OP - Sportster does a really good job of creating an atmosphere and culture of courageous thoughtfulness, which balances inspirational encouragement with self-revealing frustration, for lively and respectful discussions.

 

And you'll notice that after a while, people start really giving each other love.

 

If it weren't for our darn preference filters, I think we'd fall in love with each other for our kind, intellectual, hysterical banter if we ever met up in real life.

[TMifune]

I think you don't see as many conversations here regarding female weight for several reasons (Disclaimer: While I've quoted Darce and ITIC, this post really isn't a direct response to them or any of the other ladies on this thread, it's just a general statement):

 

1. If men say anything about heavy women, we're immediately crucified and called every name in the book ("How DARE men, even fit men, have preferences for it women? Such pigs!!!")

 

2. It's pretty much common knowledge that men in general usually do prefer fit/slim women, so it hardly needs to be said. And men are mostly honest about this preference. Maybe that's why we get tomatoes thrown at us. We've never lied about this preference, ladies! lol

 

3. You see many men talk much more about height because women (not any on this thread in particular) often have double standards and try to be politically correct. They'll say things like "I don't care about height, I've dated short guys" blah blah blah - but if you're a fly on the wall while these women are having wine and having girl talk, THAT'S when they're truly honest about what the want ("Must be a foot taller than me in my highest heels"). I've caught several women on ENA doing this - trying to console a short guy in one thread, and say in another thread a few days later "I'm only attracted to men 5'10" and up." Just be honest. Men would have a lot less to complain about if we knew in advance height is a dealbreaker, so we won't waste our precious time talking to you.

 

4. Weight can usually be changed. I might get attacked for this one, but I don't care. I have known people who are medically (from genetics) obese turn their lives around and lose weight. More often than not, I'm sorry, it USUALLY (not always, and my heart goes out to those that this isn't the case for) can be changed or greatly improved. Height cannot be changed without enduring a horrific surgery.

 

Edit: Just wanted to add. I have several female friends who are quite heavy, and they've always had boyfriends and are all married now (and the guys are actually much more fit than they are). And I KNOW there are couples where taller women have married shorter men. I'm just adding this because I don't want anyone to think that I'm saying that all men out there want slim women. I think the majority probably does.

 

But...I still don't think you still can't compare a woman's weight (can usually be improved) to a man's height (fixed), even if both are big factors in the dating world. I'd say maybe a woman's age (fixed) might be closer to height (also fixed), but I think that's arguable too. Even if a woman's age and a man's height are closely correlated in this sense, at least at some point, while a woman is young, she has her "time in the sun." Short men, at any age, will always be fighting an uphill battle.

 

My intention is not to come off as mean in this post, nor am I nearly as hung up about my height as I know I sound. I mean, yeah, it bothers me, but with all the interest I get online, I really need to shut up (I know ). But still, even as a "successful short guy," I will tell you that a man's height definitely matters big time. If there was a workout I could do to be 6'2" (even if it involved me waking up every day at 3am, running around my block naked, doing 100 jumping jacks, 500 squats, etc.), I'd go for it, because I'm a go getter. But it's fixed...and to me, THAT'S what sucks.

 

I think these posts are indicative of a larger problem that surrounds discussions such as these. When one party in a conversation feels the need to constantly tip-toe and reassure at great length to avoid offending the other people, simply for speaking their own truth, there's something really wrong.

 

How can we ever have an honest conversation if you have to apologize all the time for having the experiences you've had. It's not right and it really bothers me. Not you John John, but the fact that you feel the need to preamble everything, to reassure people that you're not trying to be offensive. You shouldn't have to pre-apologize for feeling the way you do.

 

I don't think I dare get involved in the conversation beyond pointing that out.

[John John]

I think these posts are indicative of a larger problem that surrounds discussions such as these. When one party in a conversation feels the need to constantly tip-toe and reassure at great length to avoid offending the other people, simply for speaking their own truth, there's something really wrong.

 

How can we ever have an honest conversation if you have to apologize all the time for having the experiences you've had. It's not right and it really bothers me. Not you John John, but the fact that you feel the need to preamble everything, to reassure people that you're not trying to be offensive. You shouldn't have to pre-apologize for feeling the way you do.

 

I don't think I dare get involved in the conversation beyond pointing that out.

 

 

You're kinda right TMI. I do sometimes feel pressured to be very careful with what I say in regards to certain topics. I do feel often that women are tougher on guys when it comes to our true feelings (our true preferences for slim women, for instance) than we are on women. I think that might stem from women being raised (I know I'm making a general statement) to be polite and civil and not "caveman/cavewoman"-like in terms of salivating at certain body types. Men have always been "pigs" (I'm trying to be ironic and comical here) in that sense. That's why there are posters out there that say "How to impress a man? Show up naked, bring beer (and the list for women from the same question is 10 pages long). This is changing, and women objectify men a lot more than they used to. And why not? It should be equal!

 

But overall, I still think men get tomatoes thrown at them for being brutally honest about physical preferences because in the old days, when women didn't work as much or earn equal livings, men would choose them just based on their looks in many cases. So I think it might stem from that.

[reinventmyself]

It might not help that you're in one of the more superficial cities in America. I mean, after LA, isn't New York pretty ridiculous? It might be good to keep that in mind so you can lessen the blow. People there are a tough crowd.

 

And thanks back at you, young man

 

I'm glad that it shook you...because when I clicked who I was talking to, I had a moment too lol. I knew you had changed your name, but I'm a goldfish...and don't post much outside journals...so I forgot. It's funny, because I did think about you earlier in the thread when it turned to height. I thought, "maybe MCJD met a cute girl and that's why he's not giving input on this." Lol.

 

I'm glad to hear you're working on your "stuff" with someone. Sometimes we need to talk it out with a person, instead of in our heads (or with people that will validate us too much- like on this site).

 

Xoxo

 

WTG Faraday! . though I didn't look at it that way and I might not have compared him to Dougie, but the sentiment is there just the same!

 

JJ's a nice looking young man with a personality to back it up and no matter what we would say he insists his height is his demise. I am sure to some degree that it's a challenge at times but not to level he believes, so much so you can't loosen his death grip on it.

Ha ha . .Hope your reading this JJ. . and it sounds like you are doing much better!

 

I can hyper focus on my flaws but it serves me no purpose.

I think with age comes wisdom and we just get more comfortable in our own skin.

[Ms Darcy]

I do sometimes feel pressured to be very careful with what I say in regards to certain topics. I do feel often that women are tougher on guys when it comes to our true feelings (our true preferences for slim women, for instance) than we are on women. I think that might stem from women being raised (I know I'm making a general statement) to be polite and civil and not "caveman/cavewoman"-like in terms of salivating at certain body types.

 

Speaking only for myself, I find that I catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Most of the time, I forget and naturally use vinegar (lol). But I try - especially on topics where it seems like a person is a kind, thoughtful person who is experiencing frustration or struggle.

 

I started a new job not long ago. Now, it's not the 'best' strategy, but I entered conversations, where I disagreed with the other person, with a little bit of self-deprication or gentle preamble. I would say, "Well, I don't know. I'm new to the culture here, but where I was before we took this other approach ..." And over time, it worked REALLY well. I never put myself out there as someone who said their strategy and approach was wrong; rather, I took it from the perspective that there are multiple ways to approach a single goal and how you get there depends on a lot of factors ... including your preference. So, I found that a lot of people who were rather hard-wired to approach work in X way started becoming open to going the Y way I suggested because I never made them feel wrong. Rather, I made them feel like there is just another way that they can try out.

 

We have to remember that, ultimately, we are on the same side -- men and women. We aren't on opposite sides. It's hard to remember that, especially when dating feels competitive, when we feel judged, when we are lonely, when love seems to be passing us by. But we're on the same side.

 

I used to get pilloried too when I suggested bigger women should lose weight to increase their dating options. It was ugly I thought because I had been obese over a decade ago and changed my own life to lose the weight, that I would have some level of "free reign" to say that. But I was also very fortunate in that my body was ABLE to go that way. And I've seen that not everyone's body does. So, I've advocated that people try to be as healthy as they can be and let their body be what it will. At the end of the day, I say as long as you are healthy and confident and recognize that not everybody is going to be attracted to the way your body ends up, that's OK. You've won. You are healthy and confident.

 

Is that being too careful with words? Perhaps. Perhaps it's also injecting a slight bit of empathy and understanding to try to understand the bottom line.

[John John]

WTG Faraday! . though I didn't look at it that way and I might not have compared him to Dougie, but the sentiment is there just the same!

 

JJ's a nice looking young man with a personality to back it up and no matter what we would say he insists his height is his demise. I am sure to some degree that it's a challenge at times but not to level he believes, so much so you can't loosen his death grip on it.

Ha ha . .Hope your reading this JJ. . and it sounds like you are doing much better!

 

I can hyper focus on my flaws but it serves me no purpose.

I think with age comes wisdom and we just get more comfortable in our own skin.

 

I forgot you in my dream harem reinvent! In addition to the fact that your username is pretty catchy, I know what you look like as well, and I've told you before that you're hot (and don't look your age at all).

 

Thank you very much for what you said As I've stated many times, I've been investing a lot of time in therapy, for the first time in my life, the past few months. Like, actually consistently going (as opposed to when I was in my teens and mid 20s, when I'd give up after three sessions or so). The results are NOT overnight, and it's only in the past few weeks I've been starting to see results in my way of thinking. I still have a LONG way to go. But it's given me a lot of hope.

 

happybear also gets a VERY honorable mention. Another pretty Canadian paired up already. Dang it!

[reinventmyself]

I forgot you in my dream harem reinvent! In addition to the fact that your username is pretty catchy, I know what you look like as well, and I've told you before that you're hot (and don't look your age at all).

 

Thank you very much for what you said As I've stated many times, I've been investing a lot of time in therapy, for the first time in my life, the past few months. The results are NOT overnight, and it's only in the past few weeks I've been starting to see results in my way of thinking. I still have a LONG way to go. But it's given me a lot of hope.

 

Well then, I am in good company and you made my day!

 

All this talk make me reflect back to being younger and insecure. It was tough!

I will tell you that I love this stage of my life when life experiences gives you the confidence you wish you had back then. Factor in I don't have much at stake on finding a partner now. Been there, done that!!

A partner is just icing on the cake and no longer the cake.

 

Having said that, I'll add I am no longer in my 20s or 30s and though I may have been cuter when I was younger I didn't appreciate it then. I couldn't get out my own way with the insecurities I had.

 

Being more confident I find that I attract more attention now then I might have when I was younger and cute.

So it's not so much the physical but the mental attitude about which you go about it.

[reinventmyself]

That's why there are posters out there that say "How to impress a man? Show up naked, bring beer (and the list for women from the same question is 10 pages long). This is changing, and women objectify men a lot more than they used to. And why not? It should be equal!

 

But overall, I still think men get tomatoes thrown at them for being brutally honest about physical preferences because in the old days, when women didn't work as much or earn equal livings, men would choose them just based on their looks in many cases. So I think it might stem from that.

 

But I have to chime and say that it's the men that are insisting that they are the authority on what women want, in spite of the fact the women here will tell you differently.

It's vicious circle. .

[Ms Darcy]

Edited to add: Don't worry about the harem comment. You, Captain America, David Bowie ( Idris Elba, my friend Victoria, and Won Bin would be on my ideal harem list.

 

Just off topic for a second. I totally bummed myself out by mentioning David Bowie.

 

OK, back on topic.

[John John]

But I have to chime and say that it's the men that are insisting that they are the authority on what women want, in spite of the fact the women here will tell you differently.

It's vicious circle. .

 

Yeah that is true. We had that poster in our college dorm (of course, featuring a clichéd scantily-clad model), and I'm sure the idea for it came from men.

 

But really...if girls would just show up naked and bring me food (instead of beer - I'm hungry 24/7), that's all they'd need to impress me lol

[Ms Darcy]

... there are posters out there that say "How to impress a man? Show up naked, bring beer

 

But really...if girls would just show up naked and bring me food (instead of beer - I'm hungry 24/7), that's all they'd need to impress me lol

 

Oh, it's FOOD not BEER! (Takes notes.)

[lilygirl]

Well then, I am in good company and you made my day!

 

All this talk make me reflect back to being younger and insecure. It was tough!

I will tell you that I love this stage of my life when life experiences gives you the confidence you wish you had back then. Factor in I don't have much at stake on finding a partner now. Been there, done that!!

A partner is just icing on the cake and no longer the cake.

 

Having said that, I'll add I am no longer in my 20s or 30s and though I may have been cuter when I was younger I didn't appreciate it then. I couldn't get out my own way with the insecurities I had.

 

Being more confident I find that I attract more attention now then I might have when I was younger and cute.

So it's not so much the physical but the mental attitude about which you go about it.

 

Oh yes reinvent, I really like what you wrote. I was impossibly hard on myself when I was younger. It actually makes me quite sad to think about, I do carry much regret about that. Like you, I always got in my own way, not now though, and it is amazing how the world can open up. And also like you I receive more attention now than I did when I was younger but I suspect it is because I have a bit of a swagger now that I did not have in my 20's or 30's, and that feels really good. Dropping a bunch of weight in my 40's, having more life experience and wisdom has all put a skip in my step....

[Ms Darcy]

Well then, I am in good company and you made my day!

 

Welcome to the JJ's Angels club! We have monthly meetings.

 

I take the minutes.

 

 

[lilygirl]

Welcome to the JJ's Angels club! We have monthly meetings.

 

I take the minutes.

 

 

 

 

I might be feeling a bit left out. SIGH.

[IAmFCA]

I might be feeling a bit left out. SIGH.

 

Come sit by me. Beer or wine? It's JJs club and Sportster's house. Help yourself. Heehee

 

To the food and drink, I mean

[Ms Darcy]

I might be feeling a bit left out. SIGH.

 

You're part of the Sportster Relationship Roundtable! Everyone on this thread is invited (haha, don't kill me Sportster!)

 

I'll elect you club President!

[lilygirl]

Come sit by me. Beer or wine? It's JJs club and Sportster's house. Help yourself. Heehee

 

To the food and drink, I mean

 

Well I would love to. Thank you! It is almost cocktail hour after all...

[lilygirl]

You're part of the Sportster Relationship Roundtable! Everyone on this thread is invited (haha, don't kill me Sportster!)

 

I'll elect you club President!

 

I could be president, I think Sportster and I live in the same part of the world.

[reinventmyself]

Come sit by me. Beer or wine? It's JJs club and Sportster's house. Help yourself. Heehee

 

To the food and drink, I mean

 

""But really...if girls would just show up naked and bring me food (instead of beer - I'm hungry 24/7), that's all they'd need to impress me lol""

 

Uh oh. . not sure what we just agreed to?

[itsallgrand]

 

But...I still don't think you still can't compare a woman's weight (can usually be improved) to a man's height (fixed), even if both are big factors in the dating world. I'd say maybe a woman's age (fixed) might be closer to height (also fixed), but I think that's arguable too. Even if a woman's age and a man's height are closely correlated in this sense, at least at some point, while a woman is young, she has her "time in the sun." Short men, at any age, will always be fighting an uphill battle.

 

 

I actually think you are right, after thinking about this more, which I must admit, never in my life except from seeing so much talk about it on ENA have I thought so much about height weight and age, but it's good in the sense that it has sparked me to think more about it from a man's perspective (specifically the height issue).

 

There really is nothing that compares to it for women. Some things come somewhat close; weight, age, being pretty...but not the same.

[John John]

Adding itsallgrand and lilygirl to my harem. Come join us, you two 8)

 

And laughing at what reinvent pointed out to ITIC XD

 

 

I actually think you are right, after thinking about this more, which I must admit, never in my life except from seeing so much talk about it on ENA have I thought so much about height weight and age, but it's good in the sense that it has sparked me to think more about it from a man's perspective (specifically the height issue).

 

There really is nothing that compares to it for women. Some things come somewhat close; weight, age, being pretty...but not the same.

 

I mean, it is what it is. Most of us have something that we'd like to change that hinders us a bit. Actually, I think being pretty/not pretty is probably the closest female looks factor to the equivalent of male height. Even if you argue "oh, women can have plastic surgery," not all women want to do that (nor should they), not all women could afford it, and there are things that simply cannot be "fixed."

 

The Catholic in me (I'm far from devout) wants to come out and say "we're all perfect because God made us." But looks, or lack thereof, definitely matter. It's kinda sad...but we're all guilty to some degree. I'm working on becoming more compassionate towards others' struggles.

[kamurj]

The thread has run its course, closed.