Monogamy. What is "normal"?

[SoulTaker]

Relationships do not have a "shelf life", they aren't "meant" to last a specific time, they don't "run their course". People learn more about themselves and each other and either want to continue or not. It's a choice, not fate or something passive.

 

Call it what you want. You have your views on it, and I have mine. I didn't say all relationships. Some relationships were never meant to be. Others happened while people are still trying to find out who they are. Some people learn more about themselves and realize that they're with the wrong person. I'm pro-relationship, but there are good sides to it, and bad. There are many people whose lives have been destroyed by staying too long in a bad relationship they should have ended long ago (especially abusive ones).

 

Instead of attacking other peoples views (I never mentioned "fate", or "passive"), why don't you list your own on the subject, such as why there are so many relationship failures. I don't care much for your earlier simple two sentence remark, but I'm not going to attack your view on the subject.

[SoulTaker]

Well, I did think my marriage was forever. Not so much.

 

And this last relationship, despite the breakup being very hard - i did feel down deep that it would have not been a good long-term match.

 

In both cases, they cheated, I buried my head in the sand for a bit, and I walked. BOTH times, I had to make the decision - my partner, for whatever reason, could not do the honorable thing. Sad.

 

If i were to write the happy ending to this story, i would take the wisdom from these relationships, and 7 years of dating, into the next, and final relationship of my life. I think it should not go to waste. And despite my original post, I guess I do believe in some form of love and commitment, and don't think we are meant to live our lives alone...

 

That's the point I was trying to make. Most of us go into relationships hoping for the best, but at some point you or your partner realize that it's not going to last. It looks like your gf also realized this, but instead of discussing it with you, her solution was to cheat.

 

When I say "shelf life", I'm not saying that we go into a relationship knowing it's going to end at a certain time, but that at some point in it, we know that it ain't going to last. As the years go by, a couple will either grow closer to each other, or drift further apart.

 

The key is to learn from your previous relationships, and use that knowledge to find the right person for you, who can go the distance.

[Blue Spiral]

Monogamy is the second-greatest lie that our species ever told itself.

 

We're promising "forever" when we don't have forever to give--usually not even a century. Making a promise that you haven't been able to keep in the past ("together for the rest of our lives")...yeah, most of us are like used car salesmen, pushing a product that we have serious doubts about. Why on earth would anyone promise something that they know they've never been capable of? It's like the emperor with no clothes. Everyone agrees to believe in it, even though many of us know that it isn't actually real.

 

By all means, don't look at ENA to be perfectly representative of the world as a whole. Instead, you should think about your own "breakup rate", and the breakup rate of others you know. How many failed relationships versus how many functioning relationships? For most people, it's a whole bunch of failed ones, maybe a currently functioning one (or maybe not), and even that's up in the air. The breakup rate has to be over 90%. I wish that I could figure out how to trick society into taking a constantly-failing social institution and making it its cornerstone. I'd have made myself a billionaire, surely.

 

Serial monogamy is as close as most of us will ever get. And that isn't even monogamy at all, in some ways. If our lifespans were shorter, if we were localized and didn't know about all the other options out there--sure, more of us might be able to make it work. But why do we need to make it work at all? If something isn't working, I usually get rid of it and find something that works better. Just like all the people out there who claim to be looking for "committed relationships". At least I'm honest about it...

[Batya33]

I promised commitment because I believe in commitment, I believe in marriage and I wanted to live a marital/family lifestyle with the person I chose and who chose me. It required and requires a leap of faith and I took a similar leap of faith with my career which required many years of my life, lots of time, stress, $ - less of a leap of faith than marriage to be sure but many things in life require that type of risk -of not being able to wholly explain why you would go to such lengths for a particular goal or dream. My marriage vows had the typical "till death" so of course technically we don't promise forever. It's very real to me and my husband and becoming more real every day to my son who is learning about the whole family dynamic and who he is in the family (and who he is not). I don't care if it's not real to anyone else.

[ParisPaulette]

But i am also still sticking to my original point - that the likelihood that two people meet, fall in love, and commit to each other, without one of them straying, is pretty small. I think this comes down to the natural imbalance of "love" in most relationships - one being into the other a bit more - leaving one with a bigger "need", that they could get somewhere else. Or something along those lines.

 

I hear you. And I've been cheated on, so I well remember that "is this the way it's always going to be?" feeling and thoughts. But the fact is my ex-husband never cheated on me, neither did many of the guys I dated. We broke apart for other reasons.

 

I guess in the end it comes down to trusting yourself first and learning that trust needs to be continuously earned and given in a relationship. And that this is pretty much an ongoing thing throughout a relationship, not a once only. At this stage of my life I've done what I can to make sure I don't ever cheat although I was never one for that, it just seems so pointless. If you're that unhappy just go already. I have told my current SO that if I find out he cheated and hid it that we are through, I do not give second chances no matter what. I trust him, because he shows me he can be trusted and I don't see any of the red flag behaviors I saw with other SOs who cheated. I also trust that I can be happy in my life with or without him and as such I share a life with him, but he's not my whole life if that makes sense.

 

It's all I can do and it's all I'm going to do. Sex, companionship, love, growing together are all things you do with a multitude of people, not just one. I try to look at each person as a complete individual--their core values and how they treat others and how they treat me and I judge them based on that. Will I still get fooled? Probably, but nowhere near as much as I used to when I'd let someone get a pass on bad behavior or rudeness or worse because I had stars in my eyes. And I stopped letting people into my life who exhibited bad behaviors. At one point in my dating life before I met my current SO I let so many men go that my friends joked about putting in a turnstyle at my front door. And yes, it hurt to let some of them go, but I decided being alone was better than excusing away that guy who ogled every girl in front of me while pretending to talk to me or who was mean to the waitress or who took a text from an ex while we were on a date when they didn't have children, but were absolutely the closest of friends still spending the night at each other's house and so on and so forth.

 

Keep in mind you have a certain set of standards and core values, and if you have them other people will too. The trick is to find those people while passing on the ones who don't. And yes, sometimes that is a huge process, even years. People do change, time changes, what you need at 50 is often not what you needed at 20. All I can tell you to list out what your values are and how you want to be treated then try and meet someone like that. Beyond that it's anyone's guess. I do wish you happiness and really do hope you find a woman out there who'll be happy to stay with you and won't cheat on you. And I freely acknowledge you may have to do like I did and make and break a few relationships and date a whole lot of bad matches to get that to happen.

[DancingFool]

"Well, I did think my marriage was forever." - well why? Were you really suited to each other?

 

The reason I ask this is because of my own relationship mileage. My very first ltr back in college - he was looking for an engagement ring, I dumped him. Why? I was this super ambitious, driven, career oriented girl going on to grad school and basically with tunnel vision about career career career. His vision? That I'm going to quit all that and basically be pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen clipping coupons to make ends meet because he absolutely would not tolerate a wife working instead of raising the kids. All I can say to this day is WTH??? How on earth did he figure he'd get that with me of all people???? The sex life was not all that either. I can totally see how if I had gone forward, we'd be divorced probably within two years as all the incompatibilities hit the ceiling. However, I can also see how a weaker person might go along, have the baby, suffer in silence, end up cheating, etc.

 

The thing is that a lot of people don't share what's really in their mind, they just marry because that's the thing to do or out of fear of being alone or just flat out ignoring reality and stubbornly sticking to their visions of how their life and marriage should be. The result is divorce, cheating, etc. Not everyone makes those kinds of catastrophic mistakes, but it's something to think about. When I dumped him, he was shocked and told me he never saw it coming and was in total denial that a marriage would never work between us. To this day, I don't get how he didn't see it. Something like that could have happened to you as well. Frankly, I've come accross a lot of guys who have this thing where I just felt like I was a pretty face that fit their internal fantasy and nothing else. Like they didn't really see me and who I really am as a person because they were too busy filling the blanks with whatever was in their head.

 

Anyway, not saying you have done any of the above. Just kind of throwing out food for thought.

[Ms Darcy]

Call it what you want. You have your views on it, and I have mine. I didn't say all relationships. Some relationships were never meant to be. Others happened while people are still trying to find out who they are. Some people learn more about themselves and realize that they're with the wrong person. I'm pro-relationship, but there are good sides to it, and bad. There are many people whose lives have been destroyed by staying too long in a bad relationship they should have ended long ago (especially abusive ones).

 

Instead of attacking other peoples views (I never mentioned "fate", or "passive"), why don't you list your own on the subject, such as why there are so many relationship failures. I don't care much for your earlier simple two sentence remark, but I'm not going to attack your view on the subject.

 

I agree with you. I think some relationships are where one or both realize that they are incompatible or that the relationship was not the right one for them.

[happpybear]

This is an interesting thread. I used to often ponder whether monogamy is "natural" and I do believe there are scientific studies that indicate that it may not be natural or hard-wired into us.

 

I think it is a choice--depending on your own values. Sure relationships evolve and change, and I am not advocating staying in a crappy RS for monogamy sake.

 

I think the longevity of a healthy RS is dependent upon both parties genuinely liking and loving one another, and both parties working really hard to communicate, work through the problems and find a balance, because the benefits outweigh the negatives. This takes finding the right person for you--making the right choice for a partner. I think many people rush marriage, or think it's going to be sunshine and unicorns when in reality life gets tough and many things will work to challenge your bond with your partner. Many people don't know how to deal with conflict in a healthy way and would rather just walk away when things get tough. It's about loyalty and working together. Too many people I think just don't know how to have a healthy relationship, don't know how to communicate and figure that it's easier to go find someone else when things get tough. I think that is why the divorce rate is so high.

 

My parents divorced a decade ago because my father cheated, that messed me up for years. I seriously questioned the validity of monogamy and the purpose of marriage. I figured it best to remain alone and celibate for the rest of my life, rather than potentially put myself in a similar situation that my mother went through. I don't feel this way now, and definitely believe in monogamy and life-long commitment to another person because I know that I have it in me to remain loyal to the man I marry and I am sure I can find a man with the same values

 

Frankly, I've come accross a lot of guys who have this thing where I just felt like I was a pretty face that fit their internal fantasy and nothing else. Like they didn't really see me and who I really am as a person because they were too busy filling the blanks with whatever was in their head.

 

I have had this happen too, he tried to mold me into his idea of who I am--or what he wanted me to be like. I think it is all too common. People just not connecting on a deeper level and really seeing who their partner is inside, because they either don't know how, are afraid of really knowing someone, seeing someone's vulnerabilites and also exposing their own vulnerabilities. People are afraid to be hurt, afraid to show their soft spots--but that's what connecting is all about. I feel that many people just skim the surface of the depths that exist within themselves and the friends/lovers/family that are all around them, in general. Hence, poor relationship choices + lack of truly knowing oneself = high divorce rates.

[notalady]

"Frankly, I've come accross a lot of guys who have this thing where I just felt like I was a pretty face that fit their internal fantasy and nothing else. Like they didn't really see me and who I really am as a person because they were too busy filling the blanks with whatever was in their head.

 

I wholeheartedly identify with this. I have dated guys where I felt like they didn't see or know me for who I truly am and yet they claimed to love me and think we'd be great together when it simply wouldn't work. I couldn't help but feel like they were just projecting their own fantasies on me, which I think is something both men and women are guilty for at times.

[Sportster2005]

This is an interesting thread. I used to often ponder whether monogamy is "natural" and I do believe there are scientific studies that indicate that it may not be natural or hard-wired into us.

 

I guess if you look at it in a very practical sense our species has a better chance of survival if we are not monogamous. Then again other species do fine with monogamy. Great first date discussion material

[Fudgie]

I guess if you look at it in a very practical sense our species has a better chance of survival if we are not monogamous. Then again other species do fine with monogamy. Great first date discussion material

 

From my understanding (and reading) humans ARE monogamous...serial monogamists.

 

If we were not monogamous in any sense of the word (serial or not) our species would actually do very poorly because then the mothers would not have the support of the fathers. Humans are limited in terms of the # of children they can have (unlike other animals which have big litters) and humans take a long time to develop into independence. Serial monogamy allows for maximum support for the offspring from both the mom and dad, after which, the parents can split and form new unions and have new babies, and the process continues.

 

From what I've seen, most humans are serial monogamists anyway.

 

That being said, I wouldn't focus so much on "nature". Focus on what you want and what makes you happy, not what "nature" or society "says".

 

Many problems in life come from when people feel forced to act a certain way or do certain things because they think that "society" requires it. It doesn't really matter. Do what you want, but act with integrity.

[SoulTaker]

I agree with you. I think some relationships are where one or both realize that they are incompatible or that the relationship was not the right one for them.

 

Good point. If a person is going to enter into a relationship, then they also need to know how to end one if it's not for them. Of course they should try to stay in it and work it out (unless it was a mistake from the beginning). But if there's no future, then they need to have the strength to end it.

 

If they don't have that strength, they end up suffering in silence making both of them miserable. Or, they reach a breaking point and end up cheating, or becoming withdrawn, or even angry with their partner.

[happpybear]

I guess if you look at it in a very practical sense our species has a better chance of survival if we are not monogamous. Then again other species do fine with monogamy. Great first date discussion material

 

yes and there are actual studies out there that indicate that we are not inherently monogamous. This is what I used to ponder, whether the concept of monogamy was more a social construct rather than something inherent to us as a species.

[pfbsurf]

That's the point I was trying to make. Most of us go into relationships hoping for the best, but at some point you or your partner realize that it's not going to last. It looks like your gf also realized this, but instead of discussing it with you, her solution was to cheat.

 

When I say "shelf life", I'm not saying that we go into a relationship knowing it's going to end at a certain time, but that at some point in it, we know that it ain't going to last. As the years go by, a couple will either grow closer to each other, or drift further apart.

 

The key is to learn from your previous relationships, and use that knowledge to find the right person for you, who can go the distance.

 

The interesting thing was that we both were surprised that we got as far as we did... It was a much stronger connection than either of us expected and on paper - the match was not obvious... But I think I did see a "time limit" even though it was very hard to walk away...Shelf life. I'd have to agree

[SoulTaker]

The interesting thing was that we both were surprised that we got as far as we did... It was a much stronger connection than either of us expected and on paper - the match was not obvious... But I think I did see a "time limit" even though it was very hard to walk away...Shelf life. I'd have to agree

 

Pfbsurf, what was it that raised doubts for the two of you? You said the match was not obvious. It's interesting that the connection grew stronger than expected, but fell short.

[pfbsurf]

Well.... Sort of...

 

We met in college and fell in love. I never fell out. She did - somewhere between year 3 and our second kid. We ended up having three sons. So I would not change it, but man we are different... . And, despite her giving my the ILYBINILWY speech, I always expected us to stay together. But, and, straight out of a movie, just as things were actually improving slightly, checking an ebay auction on her laptop - there it was. top 10 reasons why I love you email... It would have been nice if it was written for me. (btw, I really did not suspect a thing, she forgot to close/save the email..)

 

Not a pretty ending to the marriage

 

8 years and lots of fun dating later I feel like I am back where I started. Hence the original post

 

If all of this is a life lesson - i'm paying close attention. I will take the blame if I have to. I just don't want to go through any of that again..

[pfbsurf]

Pfbsurf, what was it that raised doubts for the two of you? You said the match was not obvious. It's interesting that the connection grew stronger than expected, but fell short.

 

 

Well, she is very attractive, and a professional flirt. Loved and needed attention from guys. Admitted to being "boy crazy". 44 never been married, only one real LTR. Stayed in touch w exes and had a bunch of guy friends. I set no boundaries though

 

 

I was doing the math very early on, but came to trust her, and then became pretty attached. Once this happened, she sort of backed off. But she still wanted to have me around.

 

The connection was because of chemistry and a genuine like/love for each other when we were together. And I had told her that if it wasn't working out, I just wanted her to be honest That is where the connection fell waaaay short.

[DancingFool]

So you and your wife were way different and you didn't see it or you ignored it. This last gf, everything you've said in your first paragraph about her is a giant red flag that pretty much screams "dude, you will get screwed over." Once again, you ignored and went forward and got attached. It seems that once that chemistry hits you, you kind of go blind to the incompatibilities and essentially just hope that the person will be and behave how you want them to even though they are completely different from you and your value system.

[pfbsurf]

So you and your wife were way different and you didn't see it or you ignored it. This last gf, everything you've said in your first paragraph about her is a giant red flag that pretty much screams "dude, you will get screwed over." Once again, you ignored and went forward and got attached. It seems that once that chemistry hits you, you kind of go blind to the incompatibilities and essentially just hope that the person will be and behave how you want them to even though they are completely different from you and your value system.

 

 

Fair enough. However, there was enough compatability in both cases - and love and affection on both sides, to keep things going. In the case of my marriage - this was a pretty typical meet at 19 story. We have no idea what we want from a partner at that age.

 

As for the most recent thing - guilty as charged. Chemistry, tons of fun, and then got in too deep. The red flags early were balanced out by being "casual". As things developed though, i kept hoping she would change, and for a while, she did.

 

I'm trying very hard not to take these things personally.

[lavenderdove]

this world and relationships are complex. there is no one size fits all. and the one constant is change!

 

successful long-term relationships are built on a combination of selection of the right partner who has similar view/goals/values, compatible personalities, love and respect, ability to be unselfish and put your partner's needs as equal to your own, and especially to value the idea of a steady long term connection rather than chasing variety/stimulation in a way that is destructive to the relationship.

 

So monogamous relationships both succeed and fail, and so do open relationships, and for either the same reasons or different ones. lots of open relationships fail when one partner eventually meets someone in their wanderings who connects to them on a deeper level emotionally than their spouse/partner, or who better suits the person they have evolved into being over time than their partner, and then all the 'open communication' in the world won't overcome those feelings and they decide they want their usual partner they live with and share finances and family with to be different than their current one.

 

so there are no guarantees that an open relationship will last forever either because relationships turn on so much more than just whether you are allowed to bang someone else or not. Open relationships solve the problem of desire for physical variety, but they don't solve the issues of emotional attachment and the logistics of how to share finances, children, life if you fall in love and want to spend most of the time with someone other than your spouse in the midst of sampling other people in your non-monogamous pursuits.

 

I have one friend who had a series of unsuccessful marriages due to his philandering, who in the end took wife number 4 who was a woman who was fully in the open lifestyle. But now years into that marriage, he is still not happy because this woman allows him to 'play' with other women, but he is basically bored with her and he chose her for the main reason that she was in the lifestyle and not because there is any real big emotional/physical spark for him. So he 'settled' for her as well thinking all he needed to so was solve the monogamy conundrum! His problem is he keeps marrying without truly being in love with the woman and more as a musical chairs move than anything.

 

This guy may 'last' in this latest open marriage because cheating is not a dealbreaker for her, but I don't think he is any happier than his other ones. He gained one thing he values (the ability to sleep with whomever he chooses), but he is still locked in a commitment with a woman who bores him and isn't interesting to him on other levels other than a secure home life/finances. I find his case sad, because it just proves that merely allowing freedom to bang anybody you choose isn't going to 'fix' a marriage that isn't really about love, enjoying each other as people, common values etc.

 

I know for myself, when I fall in love, I am just not interested in anybody else, and make choices designed to keep us together, happy, stimulated rather than choices that are risky to the relationship. So it suits you best if you decide your goal is to live as happy a life as you can, and to try to find someone who relates to you on multiple levels and have the same value systems in terms of monogamy or not as being an important concept to live by. Some of it is just luck of the draw because nobody has a crystal ball and the twists and turns of life can throw so many curve balls at us, but you have to always try to be true to yourself and what is important to you in your choices as well. Know thyself, and try to choose wisely!

 

But you can't control all events and the universe, so also be flexible and recognize every day is a new day and a potential for a fresh start. People fall in love at all ages, and 50% of them do stay married and faithful!

[lavenderdove]

>>Well, she is very attractive, and a professional flirt. Loved and needed attention from guys. Admitted to being "boy crazy". 44 never been married, only one real LTR.

 

btw, HUGE red flag that this woman is not a good choice for a monogamous partner. She'll be 85 in the nursing home batting her eyelashes at the old men in the home with her AND the sons of the old men when they come to visit their fathers...

 

Your problem there isn't the failure of monogamy as a concept, but the difficulty of trying to jam a square peg into a round hole (i.e., expecting a total man hound to go off the scent permanently once she met you...not a realistic expectation given her history).

[rosephase]

I'm in a polyamours relationship. I have three partners. Personally I don't think monogamy is natural but I also don't think polyamory is natural. I think all relationship structures are social constructs. I certainly don't think the answer to cheating is non-mongamy. People cheat in poly relationships. People can be deeply committed in poly relationships. They are a lot of work to do right (just like long term monogamy). I know that speaking for myself I've been faithful in poly relationships in ways that I wasn't able to in monogamy. That might be because I was very young when I was in monogamous relationships and hadn't yet realized the pain and hurt that come with cheating. And it might be because now I'm free to explore connections with people. It's probably a bit of both. But it's not a switch, it's not like you can offer an open relationship and then all of a sudden know you'll have an honest partner or an easy time with there actions. It takes a lot of emotional work for most people to be secure enough personally to face what we've been taught from basically the beginning of our lives, that love is less if you partner loves more then just you and that sex is creepy, dirty or wrong if done with more then one partner. I've never believed thous things consciously but I still had to face thous fears.

 

Also I've found that people who cheat in monogamy still cheat in poly.

[Batya33]

"And it might be because now I'm free to explore connections with people."

 

 

I'm married and I am free to explore connections with people. And I do, all the time. I just do not have sex outside my marriage or date other men. I do not mean to be "smart" in my comments I just don't ascribe to the extremist thinking that marriage means not having freedom. I have far more freedom than I did when I was single because when I was single I felt restricted (I restricted myself) to activities which might lead to my finding a husband -all other activities were a waste of time. Sometimes freedom -or lack of freedom -is far more internal than external.

[DancingFool]

Fair enough. However, there was enough compatability in both cases - and love and affection on both sides, to keep things going. In the case of my marriage - this was a pretty typical meet at 19 story. We have no idea what we want from a partner at that age.

 

As for the most recent thing - guilty as charged. Chemistry, tons of fun, and then got in too deep. The red flags early were balanced out by being "casual". As things developed though, i kept hoping she would change, and for a while, she did.

 

I'm trying very hard not to take these things personally.

 

I'd argue very much that there was a lot of chemistry but not enough compatibility beyond that.

 

Also, no, core fundamental things do not change. Maybe temporarily, but not for life. When you choose to ignore the kinds of things that you listed, you really have to accept the consequences of your personal choice and own that rather than blaming the world at large and making statements like monogamy just doesn't work. If you accept the risk, then also accept the fact that it may well blow up in your face.

 

Kind of like when you know the bridge you are using is rotten and you choose to keep using it anyway instead of using a new sturdy one a mile downriver. If one day it gives way when you are in the middle of it, you can't really get mad at all bridges, bridgebuilders, etc. about it and proclaim that you'll just never use a bridge again because they all suck. You knew it was rotten, you chose to take the chance that it will hold. It didn't. No surprise. The surprise part should be that it held as long as it did. You fell in as a direct result of your choices and not because bridges are all bad and dangerous and shouldn't be trusted.

[Fudgie]

I do not mean to be "smart" in my comments I just don't ascribe to the extremist thinking that marriage means not having freedom. I have far more freedom than I did when I was single because when I was single I felt restricted (I restricted myself) to activities which might lead to my finding a husband -all other activities were a waste of time. Sometimes freedom -or lack of freedom -is far more internal than external.

 

I agree with this. Being married/committed to someone doesn't mean you can't make connections with other people or not have opposite sex friends. I always found it easier when in a relationship, honestly, to make opposite sex friends because the boundaries were very clearly defined ("I have a boyfriend") so it was clear from the start that nothing would happen and the friendship could go on.

 

You can still have connections with people, deep ones in fact, just not sexual ones.