Paying for dinner, etc.

[wgmitch]

I've been dating someone now for 4 months. We have been out to dinner, shows, movies, beach, etc in the area of 20 times and only once has my girlfriend picked up the check for dinner and paid for one movie. Now I never expect a woman to pick up the check on the first few dates. Never. It's nice that they offer, but I never accept, at first. We both make very good money, and she makes twice what I make. So I brought this up the other day and she told me if I want to court her I should pay. I said that we were in a committed relationship now and that it would be nice if she picked up a check once and a while. She got aggravated and started into everything she does for me. And I think we are very even on the things she is talking about. She has driven to my house more since my son visits his mom and grandparents a lot and her kids are always home. She started into how much gas she uses, etc. At one point in our discussion she said maybe I can't handle an independent woman. I said an independent woman is exactly what I want as they know how hard it is to pay for everything. Right? She also mentioned that she paid for everything with a previous boyfriend. Well, you know what it feels like so why do it to me? There's a lot more that was said (text), but all little stuff and too much to type.

 

So now it as though I'm cheap and communication has all but stopped over this. She is supposed to come to my house this weekend so we can talk, although she says she would rather do this via text since she gets flustered easily in person. This really is the first adversity since we started dating.

 

I feel stupid typing this here since I know what I'm going to get, but...

 

I do like her and we do get along very well. We have a lot in common and things have been good. So why am I bringing this up, right? I guess because it's the one area that doesn't feel right.

 

I just want some real advice. It's been only 4 months, is this a deal breaker?

 

Mitch

[Rihannon]

I would advise against a discussion that veers toward something resembling a score card or a value judgement placed on who does more for the other person and what those efforts are worth in terms of dollars and resources. I mean, investment and effort in a relationship is a discussion about who is showing emotional investment, not money and hours logged. That's my opinion.

 

This "courting" nonsense sounds old fashioned. At what point does the courting end and the real practicality of sharing expenses occur, marriage? living together?

 

I think that if two people want to do things together, they should talk about what they can afford and if this is getting too expensive for you, and she never offers to pitch in, then why not start offering less expensive activities?

 

Do you think that you have to win her over or buy her things to keep her interested? Has she suggested that if you don't continue to treat in dollar signs then she's gone? If so, that's shallow of her and she's not interested in you, she's interested in herself.

 

Next time you plan a date, say that money's tight or that you don't want to spend so much right now, and that you want to stay home, rent a movie, or make dinner together. If she insists on you spending more money on dates, point blank say you can't afford it as often unless she starts to share in the expense.

 

Also, maybe this could be a sign that the 2 of you differ on philosophies about spending. Maybe you are more of a conservative saver and she's more of a spender. Do you see that in her spending habits? This could be a hint that if things get serious, she'll still expect you both to spend more of your shared income, should you start to share bank accounts. Financial decisions are a major stress issue for couples and it can cause major major fights when they disagree about allocation of shared funds. It's good to keep an eye out for this potential discrepancies in lifestyles and habits if you plan to get serious.

 

What do others think?

 

I know there's a bigger issue for some women who feel they have to assert their "value" by being more demanding, that they feel they'll be underappreciated or taken advantage of by men if they don't demand sacrifice. Do you see that in her?

 

When I was dating my husband, I was happy to spend time with him no matter what we were doing. We spent hours just hanging out at home talking, listening to music, watching movies, or doing silly cutesy stuff - or it seemed cutesy to me - like making cookies together or acting out bad scenes from movies together and trying to make the other one laugh first. One time we watched and rewatched a tape of Michael Jackson videos trying to learn the moves together. So fun, almost no cost. Got really close together sharing that intimate vulnerability.

[reinventmyself]

Well. . it's not a good sign.

The fact that she would rather resolve a personal issue electronically is a red flag.

But you did say she is coming over this weekend to talk.

 

I imagine it wasn't easy bringing this up to her and then being met with her defensive remarks. Now it's resorted to keeping score.

I guess you will know after this weekends conversation.

 

I am a woman and I agree with you. Though I am a little traditional in the courting phase, I will pick up the check here and there (only because I get so many mixed signals from men and their expectations) but once settled into a relationship I will work with my partner so things are equitable. . however that is determined.

 

My current bf makes more than I do and he's a little resistant on me paying, so when it all washes out I probably pay about 40% of our entertainment costs.

I do have a clear stance on one thing. . if it's my idea, I am the one who pays.

 

I am not my boyfriends dependent. I am a grown adult. He doesn't need to support me.

You already have a child. You don't need another.

 

When all is said and done, after having addressed this, things will need to change or you will feel a sense of resentment every time you get out your wallet.

[reinventmyself]

and. . take it one step further. If you two ultimately married, wouldn't she be expected to contribute?

[abitbroken]

At 4 months, its time to start being frugal and make a picnic lunch sometimes or cook in. You should save money by doing that. If she is always driving to where you are and you never come to her, I think that you absolutely should pay for dinner or cook and ask her to pick up an item on her way or do it collaboratively "let's cook dinner. I like to make X main dish, why don't we eat in?". If her kids are always at home, there is no reason why you can't MEET her at a place close to her house for dinner in her neighborhood so she is not always driving. I understand not introducing you to her kids, but would it be horrible at some point to wait in the driveway and have her come out to the car?

 

When she paid for the movie, was the date her suggestion and her neighborhood?

[itsallgrand]

I would insist on the talking in person. It's not a good idea to go into anything serious over text. Even with my fiancé, anything important happens in person.

It's ok if she gets flustered, simply give her full attention and time to speak. Listen, choose your words carefully, try to keep focused on the goal of understanding and to avoid getting emotional.

 

As an individual, I agree with you in seeking more of an exchange as equals earlier rather than later. It's not even early, it's four months. That's because it's a value of mine. I'd want to understand out of this next convo with clarity if her values differ or if there's another reason for this behaviour. Values are important.

[Batya33]

Oh my goodness. My husband is traditional. He courted me. He insisted on it. And I made sure after the beginning that we took turns or if he wouldn't let me I bought him things -I mean things he could use and wanted -not frivolous stuff. Even now when we have a joint account he prefers to "pay" and use his credit card, or to pay for things out of his "own" money - and most of the time it's from our joint account so if he feels better using "his" plastic that's fine lol. I am an independent woman and yes if one person wants to do something expensive/out of budget for the other person that person should pay or pay more. I do that with certain female friends too on vacations and it works fine (i.e. when I make more). The truth is in my 20s when we dated the first time around I didn't really get it as much so I let him pay a lot more. But if he'd said or implied anything about not wanting to yes I would have stepped up. And yes we did lots of inexpensive things.

 

I hate the scorecard thing like "oh well I have to spend more to get dressed up for our dates" if she's pulling that nonsense.

 

And yes -in person. She can type out what she wants to say and read it to her -and you - be quiet when she speaks. Have good eye contact and neutral or positive body language. Show her it's safe even if she gets flustered. Here's my sense -she will get flustered because the truth is she knows that what she's accusing you of and what she wants makes little sense after 4 months of dating.Good luck!

[reinventmyself]

My best friend gives me a hard time about paying. But then again, she's single and I am not.

[Rihannon]

Also, no matter who makes more, you have different expenses so it's not fair to compare your financial resources just by gross income. If neither of you can afford to go on dates, it's time to start talking about cheap dates. I have great ideas for cheap dates if you want any suggestions.

[DancingFool]

I see a couple of things going on here. First is that she seems to have some baggage from her previous relationship where it sounds like she was pretty much supporting a moocher. This issue needs to be discussed as in you need to ask her more about it and listen. Most importantly is that she needs to recognize that she can't punish you for her previous dating mistakes.

 

There is also equity in the relationship which isn't always about who is paying. I don't know how far away you two live from each other, but if it's a good distance and she always drives, then in a way it's fair that you treat her. If going out to restaurants is getting too expensive, then staying in and cooking is certainly an option. It really comes down to being reasonably equitable overall to each other beyond just who pays. You don't want a relationship that's run like an accounting balance sheet because those relationships always fail. Basically, people contribute to relationships a lot more in ways that aren't financial.

 

All above aside, at four months, you are no longer in courting stage and this is a relationship, so you are correct to want equitable contribution from her be it financially or in other ways.

 

It all really comes down to that both people feel like the other person is contributing to the relationship in a way that feels equitable. I'll just emphasize again, that contribution isn't necessarily financial.

[abitbroken]

Oh my goodness. My husband is traditional. He courted me. He insisted on it. And I made sure after the beginning that we took turns or if he wouldn't let me I bought him things -I mean things he could use and wanted -not frivolous stuff. Even now when we have a joint account he prefers to "pay" and use his credit card, or to pay for things out of his "own" money - and most of the time it's from our joint account so if he feels better using "his" plastic that's fine lol. I am an independent woman and yes if one person wants to do something expensive/out of budget for the other person that person should pay or pay more. I do that with certain female friends too on vacations and it works fine (i.e. when I make more). The truth is in my 20s when we dated the first time around I didn't really get it as much so I let him pay a lot more. But if he'd said or implied anything about not wanting to yes I would have stepped up. And yes we did lots of inexpensive things.

 

I hate the scorecard thing like "oh well I have to spend more to get dressed up for our dates" if she's pulling that nonsense.

 

And yes -in person. She can type out what she wants to say and read it to her -and you - be quiet when she speaks. Have good eye contact and neutral or positive body language. Show her it's safe even if she gets flustered. Here's my sense -she will get flustered because the truth is she knows that what she's accusing you of and what she wants makes little sense after 4 months of dating.Good luck!

 

When it boils down to it, they have been dating 16 weeks -- a good time to shift to cheaper activities like lunch instead of dinner, cooking instead of going out to dinner. And if she paid once, let her see what her next move is -- she may start paying for dates she plans...

[Hollyj]

How far does she drive? Does she make you dinners?

[troo2]

Sounds like she isn't a giver. I dated a LOT of girls like this and now I have someone so wonderful who actually goes out of her way to buy me things, offers to pay for dinner at least every other week etc, even though I make like 3 times more than she does...

 

It's just the way she is. It's best to find a girl that is a giver IMO....

 

I think you are absolutely right in what you have done. I would definitely bring that up to and say that a relationship needs to be reciprocal and that means both people going out of their way to do nice things for each other.

[Batya33]

Sounds like she isn't a giver. I dated a LOT of girls like this and now I have someone so wonderful who actually goes out of her way to buy me things, offers to pay for dinner at least every other week etc, even though I make like 3 times more than she does...

 

It's just the way she is. It's best to find a girl that is a giver IMO....

 

I think you are absolutely right in what you have done. I would definitely bring that up to and say that a relationship needs to be reciprocal and that means both people going out of their way to do nice things for each other.

 

I don't think he has to date a "giver" just a person with basic common sense and compassion. Is a person a "giver" because she/he pays her own way or takes turns treating with platonic friends, for example?

[Batya33]

I see a couple of things going on here. First is that she seems to have some baggage from her previous relationship where it sounds like she was pretty much supporting a moocher. This issue needs to be discussed as in you need to ask her more about it and listen. Most importantly is that she needs to recognize that she can't punish you for her previous dating mistakes.

 

There is also equity in the relationship which isn't always about who is paying. I don't know how far away you two live from each other, but if it's a good distance and she always drives, then in a way it's fair that you treat her. If going out to restaurants is getting too expensive, then staying in and cooking is certainly an option. It really comes down to being reasonably equitable overall to each other beyond just who pays. You don't want a relationship that's run like an accounting balance sheet because those relationships always fail. Basically, people contribute to relationships a lot more in ways that aren't financial.

 

All above aside, at four months, you are no longer in courting stage and this is a relationship, so you are correct to want equitable contribution from her be it financially or in other ways.

 

It all really comes down to that both people feel like the other person is contributing to the relationship in a way that feels equitable. I'll just emphasize again, that contribution isn't necessarily financial.

 

Tried to rep you for that but had to spread it around apparently. Great points. I agree.

[Wiseman2]

Sorry to hear this. Hopefully it's a lover's quarrel that can be smoothed out. Why not adopt a whoever plans treats and alternate making plans? It's better than getting in a who pays standoff, who does more for whom standoff or how we talk standoff. She may drive to you but you are hosting her a lot.

 

However she does have baggage but don't address that or defend yourself or your stance. Stay in the here and now and what's going on between you two. Seek to finds solutions and don't get dragged into a tat for tat petty argument, if things are good otherwise.

 

Make sure you are not getting too extravagant to keep up with anything or anyone. Start being more creative with dates, not bucket-of-chicken-in-the-car cheap, but stuff that alternates everyday dates and a few special dates. For example some relaxing home dates, yes even netflix and chill (gasp!) once in a while or grabbing lunch at a funky/ "quaint" place and going to free events, markets, strolling around window shopping, etc. She may find this fun or romantic even if they are not big ticket items.

she makes twice what I make. So I brought this up the other day and she told me if I want to court her I should pay. She is supposed to come to my house this weekend so we can talk, although she says she would rather do this via text since she gets flustered easily in person.

[wgmitch]

Thanks for the replies. I'll try to address some things that were stated...

 

"I would advise against a discussion that veers toward something resembling a score card or a value judgement placed on who does more for the other person and what those efforts are worth in terms of dollars and resources."

-This is where she took the conversation as soon as I brought it up, listing out all the things she has done. I told her I appreciate all the things she does, but I'm just talking about picking up a dinner bill. The last dinner we

went out to was $300. We went to see a symphony and dinner. All her idea, but in my area. I had bought the tickets to the symphony and I really thought she would pay for dinner, but no.

 

"This "courting" nonsense sounds old fashioned. At what point does the courting end and the real practicality of sharing expenses occur, marriage? living together?"

-She kept calling it courting and I kinda said I'm not sure what that means, but I'm pretty sure we aren't courting anymore. I just Goggled courting and it is old fashioned. It's dating without sex or intimacy en route to

marriage. We are not courting, we are dating in a committed relationship.

 

"I imagine it wasn't easy bringing this up to her and then being met with her defensive remarks. Now it's resorted to keeping score. I guess you will know after this weekends conversation."

-This was extremely hard to bring up and yes the reaction is not what I expected. I'm nervous about the conversation now that it is at this keeping score point.

 

"What do others think?"

-In our discussion she mentioned that she spoke to her friends and colleagues about this and they agreed that I should pay while courting her. Well I didn't have a very gentlemanly answer so I just said, "are they

in this relationship too? I'm not dating everyone. And why didn't you talk to me about it first instead of talking to them?"

[reinventmyself]

Well. . .let's hope she's had some time to think about this and you two can find a compromise.

You two are clearly on opposite ends with this.

 

they agreed that I should pay while courting her being sarcastic here. . .I suppose you can revert back to courting. Call her 4 days in advance and take her to movie and drop her off when you are done.

 

I'd ask her at what point in time are you no longer courting and by her definition what would that look like?

 

I'm nervous about the conversation now that it is at this keeping score point. You can refuse to exchange lists with her and merely state your values. You are either on the same page or not. . or there's a compromise. No need for debating. Refuse to get pulled into one.

[Rihannon]

they agreed that I should pay while courting her being sarcastic here. . .I suppose you can revert back to courting. Call her 4 days in advance and take her to movie and drop her off when you are done.

 

And make sure you ask her father first for permission.

[Hollyj]

Thanks for the replies. I'll try to address some things that were stated...

 

"I would advise against a discussion that veers toward something resembling a score card or a value judgement placed on who does more for the other person and what those efforts are worth in terms of dollars and resources."

-This is where she took the conversation as soon as I brought it up, listing out all the things she has done. I told her I appreciate all the things she does, but I'm just talking about picking up a dinner bill. The last dinner we

went out to was $300. We went to see a symphony and dinner. All her idea, but in my area. I had bought the tickets to the symphony and I really thought she would pay for dinner, but no.

 

"This "courting" nonsense sounds old fashioned. At what point does the courting end and the real practicality of sharing expenses occur, marriage? living together?"

-She kept calling it courting and I kinda said I'm not sure what that means, but I'm pretty sure we aren't courting anymore. I just Goggled courting and it is old fashioned. It's dating without sex or intimacy en route to

marriage. We are not courting, we are dating in a committed relationship.

 

"I imagine it wasn't easy bringing this up to her and then being met with her defensive remarks. Now it's resorted to keeping score. I guess you will know after this weekends conversation."

-This was extremely hard to bring up and yes the reaction is not what I expected. I'm nervous about the conversation now that it is at this keeping score point.

 

"What do others think?"

-In our discussion she mentioned that she spoke to her friends and colleagues about this and they agreed that I should pay while courting her. Well I didn't have a very gentlemanly answer so I just said, "are they

in this relationship too? I'm not dating everyone. And why didn't you talk to me about it first instead of talking to them?"

 

You are not courting,you are ina relationship. How old is this woman?

You did not say how far she drives, or if she cooks for you?

[wgmitch]

You are not courting,you are ina relationship. How old is this woman?

You did not say how far she drives, or if she cooks for you?

 

She is 45. Yes she has cooked for me. I as well have cooked for her, mostly breakfast. :)

[DancingFool]

Maybe just ask her when does courting stop and relationship begins in her book?

To me, she still sounds like carrying baggage from her last relationship that needs to be addressed.

[Hollyj]

Third time: How far does she drive?

[wgmitch]

Third time: How far does she drive?

 

Ha! An hour and a half give or take depending on traffic.

[Batya33]

Ha! An hour and a half give or take depending on traffic.

 

That seems like a long distance. You probably wrote above why she does most of the driving.