Newlyweds & another harsh argument - Have I been unreasonable?

[LaHermes]

Fully agree, Abit.

 

"Someone telling you they do not want to marry you or they regret marrying you is HUGE and is worth leaving for. The marriage vows have already been broken in a way."

 

So demeaning, so belittling.

[flyingkites]

Hi everyone - thank you again for the support, advice, and perspectives you've offered. Some of you have shared personal stories as well, and it helps to read them, and to know that I am not the first person in recorded history to grapple with such a thing. Everyone is fighting a hard battle, and it helps to know that others have gone through similar things and have come out dandy on the other side.

 

 

*Jedi Huuugs* This all sounds hard and I am super proud of you for moving out!!!!

 

If you don't want to burn this relationship to the ground yet counselling is an option, but definitely decide what your hard limits are and draw your boundaries. If he want so keep you he has to learn to compromise. That he shot down the family gathering in one location in Ireland is the height of selfish!!!

 

After the past few days, I honestly don't know that counseling will work. My husband truly does not understand my perspective, why I'm upset, or why his behavior is unacceptable in a healthy marriage. We had a brief text exchange last night that kind of cemented this in my mind, one week after fighting and having moved out. He asked to come over tonight, and I said I would see him, but only if the conversation would be different from the 20+ arguments/make-ups we've had in the past that have led no where. He said "whatever, I'll be there at 7. We'll be fine and need to talk." When I saw the "whatever", I felt like a lightening bolt cracked against my forehead. I told him not to come over.

 

He really doesn't get it. He also asked last night via text if I can understand his point of view (i.e. wanting to see his friends for the East Coast wedding, and why that should be more sacred than our honeymoon (

 

I can't get his point of view. He genuinely is still pissed that I tried to compromise our honeymoon sites with his friend's wedding - and the wedding was more important to him. And to him, that's a point we should debate, if should we "make-up." He feels he has a dog in this fight, and still hasn't apologized for uninviting me to his friend's wedding. He sees nothing wrong with how he behaved, both 1) his anger at my compromise and 2) uninviting me to the wedding. He feels justified in his behavior.

 

^^ So, yeah... I am not really not certain that counseling will work. I have to give it more thought, and I will. Thank you for imparting an optimistic solution!

[flyingkites]

I married my husband when I didn't really want to get married.

 

Guess what? The marriage didn't last.

 

Fortunately we were able to have an amicable divorce and co-parented well, but there was still damage. And it was MY fault for not putting my foot down and saying firmly that I wasn't ready to get married.

 

I should not have married him when I didn't really want to. These situations do not end up happily ever after...or even somewhat happy ever after.

 

That's a tough story to read boltnrun, and thank you for sharing. I'm sorry you both had to go through that. Sometimes, lessons in life are earned the hardest way possible. I'm glad your divorce was amicable, and based on the little you've shared with your posts, you both truly seem like lovely, warm people. I hope you're both happier these days.

[arjumand]

Well let's say counseling would work, which I doubt. It SHOULD NOT be your job to set it up. He has put forth very little effort and compromise -- if he really wants to fix things and go to counseling let him find a counselor and set up an appointment. When that never happens it will show you even more clearly that this relationship is going nowhere because he doesn't care enough to make an effort.

[Seraphim]

If he can't even understand what he did wrong then discussing anything is pretty much pointless . If he just wants to

re argue over and over it's a useless conversation . He wants to be single that's plainly obvious .

[flyingkites]

Moving on. Do visit my country some time, on your own. I am Irish.

Yes, it is a small island (lol) and last year 2016 we had 8.8 million tourists, a huge number of which from the U.S.A. And guess what, ALL the car rental companies here do have automatic vehicles for rent!!!! And many Irish people drive automatic cars. Do read up a bit about this place before you come though. Things have moved on a lot since the days of "The Quiet Man". L.

I should add that Ireland is quite expensive. Getting here by air from U.S. is not that expensive if one books in advance. It's when you get here that you need the money!! Car hire is appallingly expensive over here. Public transport isn't cheap either, but a good train service links the major cities.

 

Look after yourself, extricate yourself from this nightmare and spend your money on yourself.

 

You remarked:

 

"I sometimes wonder if he really doesn't want to be married, and is looking for easy fights."

 

Your instinct is right there and it is a huge pity you didn't act on it before the marriage. By the sounds of it he didn't want to marry and doesn't want to be married.....

 

LaHermes, thank you for the several comments you've posted over the past few days! It's been very helpful to read them, and I'm taking everything in right now, to make the best decisions possible.

 

You're Irish! What a small world! I've been to Ireland many times, partly to visit my husband while dating, and also in my younger years, as my parents have Irish ancestry. Our honeymoon itinerary was ambitious but doable. The plan was to fly into Dublin and stay with his family in Maynooth, then head back to Dublin for a night to visit his friend, then onward to Cork to visit his sister, and then off to Newport to visit his family's ancestral home. The two sites I wanted to see were Dingle and Giant's Causeway, and our plan was to make a "circle" around the island and depart from Dublin - so, this plan was viable. In our minds, Ireland was a perfect spot for a honeymoon, because we both love going there and we both love his family. It seemed like a win-win, and I was more than happy spending 50% of it with his family. But he gave me a really hard time about Dingle and the Giant's Causeway, and now here we are.

 

 

OP, did you think his behavior would change once you married? Was it okay for you when you were dating?

 

Hollyj, there was some stubbornness before getting married, but in truth, it wasn't quite on this magnitude. We only moved in together two months before being married (cohabitation is a big no-no in his family), but dated for about 2 years prior. Even though we know each other very well, we just weren't exposed to the daily compromises that are important in married life. The biggest pre-wedding compromise issue was whether to live in his house or mine. He put his foot down, and wouldn't live in mine. At the time, it bothered me, but I chalked it up partly to his fondness for his Mom and the fact that he was in Ireland for the previous 6 years, and also that he completely renovated his Mom's spare house that he wanted to live in.

 

For example, we never argue about small stuff (like where to go for dinner, what color to paint a wall). NOW, after living together and being married, it seems the larger life issues (like moving, planning for kids, planning a honeymoon) are rife with arguments. The moving stuff, I was initially gung ho to discuss, if nothing else to dream. For me, it was never an argument, but a discussion I hoped to have - a dream I wanted to share. But every time I brought it up, he became angry, and twice he told me he's not sure he wants to be married. Almost the same for having kids. We initially talked about trying to have kids 3 - 6 months after being married, and I brought it up a couple of times in the past few months. And if we're planning to try for a family soon, it makes sense to talk about our next home. He is now trying to delay having children because "we fight too much." But yet, the reason we have fought is because I want to talk with him about what our next move will be, home-wise, and talk it over. He won't hear it, and gets angry and defensive. And now I agree - we shouldn't be having kids in our state. As I alluded on a previous post, I sometimes do just wonder if he's trying to manufacture arguments because... his reasons.

[flyingkites]

If he can't even understand what he did wrong then discussing anything is pretty much pointless . If he just wants to

re argue over and over it's a useless conversation . He wants to be single that's plainly obvious .

 

I agree it seems he wants to be single. I'm becoming so angry with myself for my role in this. To date, I've really been struggling with balancing healthy compromise vs endless sacrifice. I've perhaps been more accommodating than I should, thinking he had equitable intentions, and because our marriage is so new. I've been justifying it as "us getting the hang of being married." But I haven't felt good about it and he knows that. He told me during this fight that I am playing the victim, trying to be blameless. No one is ever blameless, and I'm not a perfect spouse. But I can say with certainty that I have never told my husband I didn't want to be married to him simply because I disagreed with his point of view about something.

 

I think he's becoming angry/uneasy because I have been trying to actively build a life together, by planning a honeymoon, talking about a new home, and talking about kids. All the stuff new couples do. And I don't think he wants this life, so he is lashing out.

[Seraphim]

It really makes one wonder what he thinks marriage is. Did his mom bend to his dad's will a lot ?

[flyingkites]

It really makes one wonder what he thinks marriage is. Did his mom bend to his dad's will a lot ?

 

Not that I'm aware. His Dad passed away about ten years ago, and I never met him. I know his Mom pretty well. She's a very kind, thoughtful, salt of the earth person. Meaning, she'll tell you exactly what she thinks, but she'll be kind in giving her opinion. My husband has remarked on a few occasions that their marriage was oil and water - they didn't always get along. And when things got heated, his Dad, who was born in Ireland and worked as an immigrant to make a life for his family & 7 kids, would retreat to live in his garage for a few weeks (he was a mechanic). And although I never knew his Dad, my husband's stories, and his siblings' stories, fondly remember a stern, hard-working man who expected his kids to be equally hard-working. I think the bottom line is that his parents' marriage wasn't perfect, it seemed they both stood their ground, and they tried to raise respectful, hard-working kids. I don't think any kids in my husbands' family (and there are 7) were spoiled or given an easy way out. They all worked for what they have, and although they came from a loving house, I don't think there was an excess of coddling. It's an old-school kind of family.

 

And, just to comment on another previous post - I don't think my husband really has a Peter Pan/spoiled-by-Mom thing going on. He's the youngest boy of 7, but also has a younger sister. I know his Mom, and I know the family well enough to know that no one was spoiled. He's close with his Mom, but not in a way that has caused any problem in our marriage. When he was adamant about living next door to his Mom, I chalked it up to him wanting to spend more time with her, because she's 80 now, and he lived in Ireland from 2009 - 2015... so he feels he lost a little bit of time with her. I'm close with my parents, and I can understand that sentiment. In a few years, I might ask to do the same. A couple of times, when trying to speak with him about buying our next new house, I asked him if we might take his Mom and her well-being into consideration. Meaning, because she's older and *might* (knock on wood, hopefully not) have health issues at some point in the future, would it make sense to buy a home with a bedroom on the first floor, so she can someday move in with us, if need be, and we can look after her. I would do that in a second. He didn't seem to have an opinion about that, and the conversation went onto an argument about buying a house in general.

[1a1a]

Coming out of a 6 year relationship started to think of relationships as being like houses, they require maintenance!!! And sometimes the foundations are cracked and it's no longer viable to keep the thing standing. It's totally ok to skip the counselling and go straight to break up.

[Seraphim]

Could be he is just plain old stubborn.

 

But the fact that he considers friends more important than you says he's not ready to be married .

[flyingkites]

Coming out of a 6 year relationship started to think of relationships as being like houses, they require maintenance!!! And sometimes the foundations are cracked and it's no longer viable to keep the thing standing. It's totally ok to skip the counselling and go straight to break up.

 

A 6 year relationship! How are you holding up?! My heart goes out to you 1a1a...break ups are not for the feint of heart. My goodness, you seem strong! Your analogy of foundations and relationships is an observation worth thinking about heavily. Without a strong foundation, the house will eventually crumble.

 

 

Could be he is just plain old stubborn.

 

But the fact that he considers friends more important than you says he's not ready to be married .

 

Perhaps it is plain old stubbornness. I can deal with stubbornness and quirks and idiosyncrasies, to a degree, like most of us. But I can't deal with being less important to my husband than his friends. I understand his best friend's wedding is REALLY important. And we've been talking about it forever, b/c he's excited to see his out of town buddies. But he is not nearly as excited about our honeymoon, and is throwing wrenches where there should be happiness.

[Seraphim]

I think you sound most reasonable. When you get married your partner becomes the primary focus of your life . Friends come somewhere after that .

[flyingkites]

I think you sound most reasonable. When you get married your partner becomes the primary focus of your life . Friends come somewhere after that .

 

Thanks Seraphim. I want to know if I'm being reasonable or not. My other earlier post, a couple of months ago (I posted about our arguments in talking about buying a new house), had mixed feedback from commenters. Some thought his argument was just, others thought my argument was just. And based on that feedback, I slowed my roll with talking to him about buying a new house and pretty much tabled the convo. But now that the honeymoon stuff has surfaced, and he also doesn't want to talk about having kids soonish (we're both thirty-eight), I am looking at the situation through new lenses. We've previously talked about our honeymoon and having kids, and what that might look like. But now everything is crumbling.

[Seraphim]

He doesn't want to talk about kids soonish and you are 38?? He knows you have extremely limited time right? As it is you would be collecting old age pension before the kids left.

[flyingkites]

He doesn't want to talk about kids soonish and you are 38?? He knows you have extremely limited time right? As it is you would be collecting old age pension before the kids left.

 

He knows. I've been frank with him about this stuff, and he understands the timeline as well. We both agreed before marriage that we want to at least TRY to have kids soon, and if we are lucky, then we are lucky. We both wanted to try, and he knows the biological realities involved, because we've talked about it and he isn't daft. We originally said we'd start trying 3 - 6 months in. In April, he said we should wait a while longer because we'd been fighting a lot (about buying a home, and he said he's not sure he wants to be married). Last week, I brought up kids again, and now it's an indefinite timeline.

 

^^ And truly, I realize the gravity of this now. I'm not blind or naive. I'm not foolish for giving my husband the benefit of the doubt, but now that I know what I know... there are choices to make.

[Seraphim]

It is sad.

[abitbroken]

He knows. I've been frank with him about this stuff, and he understands the timeline as well. We both agreed before marriage that we want to at least TRY to have kids soon, and if we are lucky, then we are lucky. We both wanted to try, and he knows the biological realities involved, because we've talked about it and he isn't daft. We originally said we'd start trying 3 - 6 months in. In April, he said we should wait a while longer because we'd been fighting a lot (about buying a home, and he said he's not sure he wants to be married). Last week, I brought up kids again, and it's an indefinite timeline.

 

^^ And trust me, I realize the gravity of this now. I'm not blind or naive. I'm not foolish for giving my husband the benefit of the doubt, but now that I know what I know... there are choices to make.

 

This is the only thing i agree with him on. You should NOT try for kids because you never really have gotten along. OK - you have gotten along as long as the biggest decisions were to have a sundae or pie for dessert. You are better off childless or having just one child, fertility treatments or adopting with a second husband than you are having 2 or 3 babies with him.

 

You know, my cousin felt it was an emergency to get married at 40. She married the first guy who also wanted a family and talked a good show. She focused on a career before - she has lived all over the world. She now has twins. And a bum of a husband. She would have been better off adopting with a man who was looking for a woman to be his best friend and partner in life than who she is married to her. He is not a mean or bad person - but he stopped working to be Mr Mom and he got overwhelmed so they have a nanny and he golfs, fashions himself an artist, etc and so forth. It would have worked out fine if he actually was there for the kids - picked them up from school, made them dinner, ran them to sports and ballet - volunteered at the school but he does bupkiss. And she is tired, harried, and doesn't want to hurt her kids with a divorce. He never does anything with her, either. He will got to an expensive concert but will not do anything like have a stroll to talk about their days, etc. She is fairly lonely.

 

I strongly, strongly, recommend to every couple contemplating marriage that you should go to premarital counseling. You will be guided through taking personal inventory of many things.

1) the kid issue

2) Where you will live

3) what eachother makes

4) what eachother's expectation of marriage is.

And so forth.

 

These may seem small but they are BIG. He has very different expectations than you have and neither of you is wrong per se because everyone is entitled to their own view, but this was never brought out in the open and it led to a lot of assuming. His mom spoke her mind and his dad hid. So he decided to model his marriage the same way - he refuses to budge and you go away. You are totally justified in doing so, granted. His mother might seem sweet, but she might have actually been a bear to live with for her husband - maybe she was the one with all the opinions or told him what to do and it was her way or the highway and the only thing he could do was to work and not be home so the marriage would work.

 

This has nothing to do with not living together before marriage and this has everything to do with deciding the boy you had a crush on at 20 is at close to 40 the same man you fell in love with = when in fact he somewhat is - but he's stunted in his growth back there. Maybe there is a reason you never dated him years ago.

 

At any rate, i really feel you are at an impasse. As newlyweeds, he should want nothing more than to be alone with his wife! And to live with his wife and he does not.

 

If you choose to sell your house to move into something that better suits you, that's fine, but i would wait until the divorce is final.

 

IF you feel you are both suited to a life where you live separately and he helps you have a baby because that is what you want -you will ultimately not find it very fulfilling.

[thealchemist]

It really just sounds like he wants a pick and choose marriage. He also wants to be the one that dictates what is important.

 

He has such a horribly warped idea of marriage that it sounds nearly impossible to reconcile your different ideas of marriage. Lots of people think that if they can get married everything will just fall into place. Things should be all in place before you take that huge step. Just like having a child. Marriage and children don't fix things.

 

Your husband sounds like child. Wants everything his way and not willing to compromise. Marriage is a lot about comprise. So is life.

 

When you get married everyone else gets pushed back on priorities. You wife is always at the forefront. It is great and healthy to have friends and other social things but when it comes down to it, if you get married your spouse always wins out. He can't set people above you.

 

If you have kids with him he will probably put stuff before them too. Not a very good foundation for a family.

 

The worst part is that he doesn't even seem to care. I would be freaking the f out if I was the husband in a situation like yours. But he still seems like he thinks you are playing a game he intends to win. Not promising at all.

[LaHermes]

Yes, Alchemist.

 

This is the most telling phrase of all:

 

Your husband sounds like child

 

 

He seems utterly immature, and even, if I may venture, not quite "all there".

 

And the OP remarks yet again:

 

"...... and he said he's not sure he wants to be married").

 

[LaHermes]

You see Flying K we are talking here as if there are two extremes (although in essence one is as bad as the other): spoilt ...or, dysfunctional.

 

This is NOT normal anywhere, whether in Ireland or anywhere else. And now I can see where your husband's dire communication problem is coming from.

 

My husband has remarked on a few occasions that their marriage was oil and water - they didn't always get along. And when things got heated, his Dad, who was born in Ireland and worked as an immigrant to make a life for his family & 7 kids, would retreat to live in his garage for a few weeks (he was a mechanic).

 

 

Your husband saw that the "communication" style was for his father to leave the house, not for 24 hours, not for two days but several weeks!!!

 

I am amused by your understatement "their marriage wasn't perfect". And it seemed they both stood their ground, I doubt very much that this would be the norm just because they were an immigrant family.

 

Living in a garage for several weeks sure is a new take on standing one's ground.

 

You know that kind of dysfunction does affect the children, because children are very observant.

If your husband had no "voice" in childhood it is naturally difficult for him to at this stage in his adulthood to become suddenly a great communicator.

[Hollyj]

Hi everyone - thank you again for the support, advice, and perspectives you've offered. Some of you have shared personal stories as well, and it helps to read them, and to know that I am not the first person in recorded history to grapple with such a thing. Everyone is fighting a hard battle, and it helps to know that others have gone through similar things and have come out dandy on the other side.

 

 

 

 

 

 

After the past few days, I honestly don't know that counseling will work. My husband truly does not understand my perspective, why I'm upset, or why his behavior is unacceptable in a healthy marriage. We had a brief text exchange last night that kind of cemented this in my mind, one week after fighting and having moved out. He asked to come over tonight, and I said I would see him, but only if the conversation would be different from the 20+ arguments/make-ups we've had in the past that have led no where. He said "whatever, I'll be there at 7. We'll be fine and need to talk." When I saw the "whatever", I felt like a lightening bolt cracked against my forehead. I told him not to come over.

 

He really doesn't get it. He also asked last night via text if I can understand his point of view (i.e. wanting to see his friends for the East Coast wedding, and why that should be more sacred than our honeymoon (

 

I can't get his point of view. He genuinely is still pissed that I tried to compromise our honeymoon sites with his friend's wedding - and the wedding was more important to him. And to him, that's a point we should debate, if should we "make-up." He feels he has a dog in this fight, and still hasn't apologized for uninviting me to his friend's wedding. He sees nothing wrong with how he behaved, both 1) his anger at my compromise and 2) uninviting me to the wedding. He feels justified in his behavior.

 

^^ So, yeah... I am not really not certain that counseling will work. I have to give it more thought, and I will. Thank you for imparting an optimistic solution!

 

You need to be done. I'm sorry, but your husband is a selfish azz.

[fabact]

Hello all! Thanks for reading. This is my second post in the last ~2 months, and I got some great advice last time, and was hoping to bounce something off the group.

 

I've been married for about 3 months, and we've been off to a rocky start. Long story short, we're both 38, and had a very informal, small, lovely wedding. We've had a lot going on this year, so money was tight, but it turned out that a small wedding was the perfect thing for us. We delayed our honeymoon until August, and here's what it gets tricky:

 

We're heading to Ireland for our honeymoon, and hubby has family who lives there (in three different cities), and he used to live there as well. Of course, he wants to see his family, as I do as well. So, we're visiting relatives in all three cities, and he also wants to spend another evening hanging out with his old friend in a different city. OK cool. We've also discussed taking his Mom, who lives next door to us, with us on the trip (and we would hang out with her there for a few days). Still good! Because this year has been such a roller coaster ride, the only way to take a honeymoon was for me to withdraw some money from my 401K (which I did) to cover the costs. Thankfully, I'm in good shape there and I can hardly think of anything else to spend it on (except a retirement, haha). Anyway, I'm fine with taking the money out. So, the lowdown is that I'm covering the airfare for us and his Mom, and we're spending 7 of our 14 days in Ireland with his friends and family. Cool!

 

When we got to the nitty gritty of planning our "alone time" for the non-family 7 days, I mentioned two sites that I would really like to see. Of course, as luck has it, they are on different sides of the island, but it's a small island, so it's doable. When I proposed the sites, and stated that I really want to visit both, he gave me quite a hard time, citing distance, time spent in the car, I need to learn how to drive stick beforehand, etc. I was thrown off-guard. After all, this is our honeymoon, and we're spending a big chunk of it with his Mom and his family in different locations. Where's the compromise?

 

So, I tried to compromise. We're heading to a wedding on the East Coast in a few weeks for his best friend. All his buddies are flying in for the event. He's excited. We were looking at airfare/times the other day, and I found a really affordable fare, however the times weren't quite ideal (getting in at 9pm day before, leaving 10am morning after). I understand he wants to hang out with his friends, and I want everyone to have fun. The next best airfare was about $250 more, with better times. So I tried to compromise in a way that (I hope) was fair, and I said "let's meet in the middle. We'll get the more expensive airfare with better times, if you're willing to visit the two sites in Ireland."

 

He blew up at me, and said I was using the East Coast wedding as a "wedge" to get what I wanted for our honeymoon. I stayed calm, and did my best to explain that this seems like a fair compromise - or as fair as it can be, given the two different types of trips. He wasn't having it, and uninvited me to attend the wedding with him.

 

So, yeah... my husband told me I will not be his date at the wedding, and he is going alone.

 

I'm just at a loss for how to handle this. I felt like we were planning on a great honeymoon, but he is giving me such a hard time about seeing two sites that I wish to see on our 14 day trip. Yet, he doesn't seem to feel inconvenienced by his best friend's wedding, and is willing to spend more time/more money to be there for his friend's wedding. He doesn't seem concerned with what I want to do on our honeymoon, and gave me a really hard time about seeing the sites I want to see. That feels inequitable.

 

I'm really hurt. Is there an angle to this I am not seeing? Was I wrong to try to compromise the Ireland trip with the East Coast trip? Why is he so angry with me? Any/all feedback is warmly appreciated!

 

You're in a tough situation now b/c everything is set for the honeymoon. It's unfortunate you had to take money out of your 401K for it. Shows that you are making more sacrifices for him than he perhaps is for you. Would he take money out of his 401K? I gather he'll feel like an ass going to the wedding alone, so let him. This honeymoon thing doesn't look good though. seems like he won't budge at all. You may as well go through with it and see how it goes, but beware, he's showing you some signs of an immature narcisist Im so sorry to say..

[faraday]

He knows. I've been frank with him about this stuff, and he understands the timeline as well. We both agreed before marriage that we want to at least TRY to have kids soon, and if we are lucky, then we are lucky. We both wanted to try, and he knows the biological realities involved, because we've talked about it and he isn't daft. We originally said we'd start trying 3 - 6 months in. In April, he said we should wait a while longer because we'd been fighting a lot (about buying a home, and he said he's not sure he wants to be married). Last week, I brought up kids again, and now it's an indefinite timeline.

 

^^ And truly, I realize the gravity of this now. I'm not blind or naive. I'm not foolish for giving my husband the benefit of the doubt, but now that I know what I know... there are choices to make.

 

How have things been going? What did you end up doing?