Another online daing journal

[Fudgie]

I can relate a little to that, Ms Darcy. I grew up with computers and I am extremely tech savvy. My boss? She's a great boss but she is really bad with computers. I don't think I know more than her when it comes to my job (she had worked in health care for many years!) but when it comes to computers, yeah, I know more. Part of it is when you grow up with computers (I started using my father's machine before I was out of diapers) you can THINK like a computer. You can better troubleshoot and figure things out. We have a real advantage.

 

That said, she respects me and I respect her. She may be a total troglodyte when it comes to computers but she still knows more than me as a whole and I show respect. However, when she has computer problems or questions at work, I'm the first person she seeks out, not IT, and I am happy to show her.

 

I have my strengths and she has hers and it's about respecting each other and working together. I'm young and know my place. Someday when I'm older, I will have more seniority and that will come in time.

[Batya33]

I think my generation has an advantage in communication skills at the office because we had to have good phone manners and face to face manners more than in many corporate office jobs today.

[Fudgie]

I think my generation has an advantage in communication skills at the office because we had to have good phone manners and face to face manners more than in many corporate office jobs today.

I agree with you. So many people my age don't know how to talk on the phone properly. Just something I've noticed.

[Ms Darcy]

I think my generation has an advantage in communication skills at the office because we had to have good phone manners and face to face manners more than in many corporate office jobs today.

 

That's a fair point. I also think it's fairly straightforward to teach people communication skills and good phone manners. It's not as straightforward to teach people how to code, how to automate manual processes, how to innovate technically.

 

There are some really great articles on this, which I have found to be amazingly on point for my own team. Essentially, the notion is that millennials tend to have an entrepreneurial basis/motivations for action/change - which drives innovation.

 

/

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, I don't think having an entrepreneurial spirit justifies an entitled attitude. But I do think it does show that the older generations have a far greater dependence on and need for the younger ones in ways they might not like to admit.

[Batya33]

That's a fair point. I also think it's fairly straightforward to teach people communication skills and good phone manners. It's not as straightforward to teach people how to code, how to automate manual processes, how to innovate technically.

 

There are some really great articles on this, which I have found to be amazingly on point for my own team. Essentially, the notion is that millennials tend to have an entrepreneurial basis/motivations for action/change - which drives innovation.

 

/

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, I don't think having an entrepreneurial spirit justifies an entitled attitude. But I do think it does show that the older generations have a far greater dependence on and need for the younger ones in ways they might not like to admit.

 

I could not disagree more. I think communication skills on the phone and in person require a lot of practice, is subjective and often cannot be taught since tone is so subjective, and there are so many individual situations. Never tried to learn code but I would assume it's about following steps and being intelligent enough to grasp those steps.

 

I learned good phone manners and related communication skills at a young age because my mother was in that kind of business (and just is a lovely person anyway) and my father's career required one on one and personal interactions too. I absorbed it in a way. I'm far from perfect -that's not the point -but I see it as not straightforward in the least.

[reinventmyself]

I think both generations offer different things. Where the younger have the technological advantage going for them, the older generations have more of a

work ethic at their advantage.

I find myself struggling with pushing a young employee to meet their minimal expectations. They lack the initiative, the heart and enthusiasm.

My most recent challenge is really good at things he likes to do. Unfortunately he needs to fit the job that he has. I can't create the job to suite him.

 

In the afternoons he has down time. It's during this time he supports other departments with projects, such as data entry and legal indexing.

He needs to train and get on board. I have to invite him to do so almost on a daily basis. A few days go by and I have to give some faith

that he knows this is an expectation of him and he is doing so without my constant prompting. Every few days I ask him for update and his response is

'I don't know, they haven't called me' ??

 

I have this happen to me often. It's been a pattern that some of these young people tend to excel at the preferred tasks and slack on the others.

If you don't catch yourself you find yourself adjusting their assignments and taking

away the ones that aren't a good fit for them and before you know it, you find yourself rewarding their bad behavior. Mind you, they are

totally capable. . but they just don't `prefer it'. I literally get an eye roll from someone when I ask him to do things I know he

doesn't `like' to do and believes is beneath him.

 

I had one young woman who would accumulate sick or paid time off. The moment it rounded up to a mere 8 hours, she called in sick.

She rarely accumulated over 20 hours combined. (Just to give you an idea I have almost 300 hrs of combined time off)

By doing this she ultimately ended up working 4 days a week. In trying to counsel her that this was not a part time job, her

argument was, it was her time and she could use it how she saw fit. Aarrgh. . How do you argue that???

 

I argue with my boss at times because he thinks I should mentor these kids. I find myself doing so at times but it drains

the life out me. It's in addition to managing them I need to parent them too? These are adults, their parents raised them

and their ethics are for the most part hard wired and not easily turned around.

 

The notion of stretching and going that extra mile that is something that is second nature to some of us, doesn't occur to them for the most part.

That quiet commitment to doing things something well for personal satisfaction and not for the accolades is missing.

The good work does not go unnoticed. I just don't feel I need to pat them on the head for doing what's expected of them

all the time. Trust me that I do. But some of them just won't perform without it.

 

I see my responsibility as a manager. I give them clear and written expectations . . either you meet them or you don't.

It's entry level clerical, reception and mail room duties. It's not rocket science.

 

I do counsel them to some degree but at some point to save my own sanity, I have to stop short of parenting them.

My last review ended after a grueling 90 minutes. I asked him what his take away was. Reluctantly he only succumbed to telling me

what I wanted to hear. 'To take more initiative and commitment to what I do' Uhhg

 

I'm on a rant and I could go on . . .but Ill stop here.

[faraday]

I think work ethic can totally be taught. I didn't have a strong one when I was younger...it developed by having a few managers that cared, and by liking those managers- when I could empathize with *why* they wanted me to do things, I started to care more about getting things done because I liked them.

 

And I come from very hardworking parents. My mom called in sick twice in 26 years at the company she worked for. They spent weekends working on their yard, on their rental properties...working overtime (at their salaried jobs)...my moms house was/is immaculately clean. You could go there any day at any time and it would be spotless. They really are overachievers. But...They were also pretty miserable...so that was my take away as a young person- working hard makes you miserable. My dad always told me work isn't supposed to be enjoyable- you toil away to pay your bills.

 

That sounded terrible to me.

 

I needed to see examples of happy coworkers, happy managers before I understood that working hard doesn't have to be a chore. Working hard makes the day go by faster...working hard gives you a sense of satisfaction. But I needed to see that in others before I could realize it.

 

What really changed my work ethic in a hurry was becoming self employed...when I hired my own employees...oh man lol. I quickly realized how and why to be a good employee.

[reinventmyself]

I think work ethic can totally be taught. I didn't have a strong one when I was younger...it developed by having a few managers that cared, and by liking those managers- when I could empathize with *why* they wanted me to do things, I started to care more about getting things done because I liked them.

 

And I come from very hardworking parents. My mom called in sick twice in 26 years at the company she worked for. They spent weekends working on their yard, on their rental properties...working overtime (at their salaried jobs)...my moms house was/is immaculately clean. You could go there any day at any time and it would be spotless. They really are overachievers. But...They were also pretty miserable...so that was my take away as a young person- working hard makes you miserable. My dad always told me work isn't supposed to be enjoyable- you toil away to pay your bills.

 

That sounded terrible to me.

 

I needed to see examples of happy coworkers, happy managers before I understood that working hard doesn't have to be a chore. Working hard makes the day go by faster...working hard gives you a sense of satisfaction. But I needed to see that in others before I could realize it.

 

What really changed my work ethic in a hurry was becoming self employed...when I hired my own employees...oh man lol. I quickly realized how and why to be a good employee.

 

But. . as you shared, your parents example gave you the foundation. It makes perfect sense that you caught on and excelled in the right environment with good managers who mentored you.

 

I love working with young people who have heart and the desire to excel. It's a win win for everyone.

[reinventmyself]

And as far as teaching work ethic, the example I used got this job because his mom works for the company. He has no father figure and I know his mom personally and she has coddled him and treated him like the little prince he thinks he is.

[faraday]

But. . as you shared, your parents example gave you the foundation. It makes perfect sense that you caught on and excelled in the right environment with good managers who mentored you.

 

I love working with young people who have heart and the desire to excel. It's a win win for everyone.

 

I don't understand....are you saying that most young people don't have role models with strong work ethic? Wouldn't that indicate that this isn't a generational issue?

[reinventmyself]

It's not black and white. It's a generalization.

If ypu look at large group studies there different work cultures for every generation.

If you use my workplace microcosm as an example there is a disparity between the young people I oversee in comparison to other departments where the ages and work experience differ.

[Batya33]

I was mentored (I am 50) but not parented by my mentors. Huge difference. I have mentored several (many) employees and in part it's because I was mentored and I pay it forward. I wouldn't have gotten to where I was without those mentors (both women and men by the way).

[reinventmyself]

I was mentored (I am 50) but not parented by my mentors. Huge difference. I have mentored several (many) employees and in part it's because I was mentored and I pay it forward. I wouldn't have gotten to where I was without those mentors (both women and men by the way).

Thanks for clarifying my rant.

I mentor, but I draw the line at parenting.

[Ms Darcy]

I think our own experiences color our perceptions, and that's OK. It makes for interesting discussion.

 

Just a couple of quick thoughts.

 

It took my husband 7 years of higher education to gain the technical skills to get where he is. It took him about a year (in the past couple of years) to get to social/interpersonal skills to get to the senior level.

 

Similarly, it's taken me about 6 years of college/grad school for the foundational skills to think forward in my industry (and to be able to apply those principles to similar industries). I've never had much of an issue with interpersonal stuff. (I actually think going to school and getting involved in extra curricular activities that mimic the professional environment throughout the years from high school to college to grad school has been incredibly helpful in teaching me interpersonal skills). Mostly, I've had to focus more on not taking things personally and having the confidence not to stick around in an environment that wasn't the best for me personally.

 

I think if someone needs as much as or more than 6/7 years to learn those professional interpersonal skills, they aren't going to go anywhere in their career. That's what I mean about "harder" to learn certain technical things.

 

In terms of work ethic, interestingly, I think work ethic is strongly aligned with a) how passionate people feel about the mission and b) how respected they feel. I did work on a political campaign where you had young people working 10/12/14 hours a day 6 days a week for a couple of years. After that experience, I can NEVER write off young folks as lazy. But I would imagine much of that is because they really believed in what they were doing and they were working in a hope-filled environment where they had a lot of freedom to lead and innovate.

 

I couldn't do stick with it like they did because I needed a salary. Oh, yes, they worked 60/70 hour weeks for many months FOR FREE.

 

I would also add, it was an odd environment because it was very happy and encouraging. We were all poor and like a family. We were all working towards the same goal and took the lead on our own roles. It was somewhat similar to Agile methodology, if folks are familiar, with "sprints" to reach a specific goal. And we had "parties" and celebrations for reaching goals. The manager actually didn't "do" any work except to delegate tasks, check on status, eliminate obstacles (e.g. find money to fund a task) and celebrate successes. (She was essentially the Project Manager but we called her the cheerleader.) At first, I thought her position was an incredible waste. Over time, as I saw the productivity of everyone else, I thought of her as the most important person on the team.

 

So, I'm more inclined to think there are just different profiles of millennials working in different industries.

[reinventmyself]

You make a great point that was a light bulb moment for me.

I think what lends to my struggles or the struggles within our department is the cycle of entry level young people that come in through referrals or family knowing that this is merely the first step to a better opportunity.

We have rotated at least a dozen employees into positions in other departments they would never otherwise have an opportunity to get into.

Those who are successful at doing so did so by working hard and showing some strength in certain areas to get noticed. Our company love to promote internally. It also helps to have your managers recommendation; )

 

I'm left with those who haven't moved on because they think they can circumvent the process and/or think they are entitled to it.

 

They haven't committed to a job they were never particularly interested in to begin with. They figure they'll just bide their time or even tolerate it until they get lucky.

 

I interviewed one young girl and when I asked her why she wanted the job. She told me of her friends experience and the other opportunities. When the interview was over HR pushed me to hire her. I said no. She didn't tell my why she wanted to job that was on the table. All I heard is how she wanted the job she might land after.

We still hire these kids. Some are smart and throw themselves into what's being asked of them.

If they are superstars they aren't the ones that stay.

I always encourage them to take advantage of the opportunities that are offered , but only after they have fulfilled what's expected of them with what they already have.

[notalady]

Sounds like HR and the company in general needs to be more discerning when hiring then. Glad that you are saying no to HR when you think the person is not right for the job.

 

Not sure what you'd do about the underperforming ones, whether there's some way for them to move on. Hopefully in the not distant future they'll see some opportunity and leave lol..

[Batya33]

"I think if someone needs as much as or more than 6/7 years to learn those professional interpersonal skills, they aren't going to go anywhere in their career. That's what I mean about "harder" to learn certain technical things."

 

To me it's not about years -it's about ability to teach interpersonal skills which to me is much much harder than teaching technical skills -meaning - to teach technical skills you have books/syllabus, etc - beginning, middle, end. Someone might not be intelligent enough of course but the teaching has a method, a structure. With interpersonal skills there is no one approach that works and you have people who are tone-deaf so to speak or have psychological issues, a chip on their shoulder, etc. And the person who teaches often has no particular background in it unlike with technical skills. (and just like there's no Parenting Manual, sigh).

 

I was basically born with a strong work ethic -never really mattered whether I was working in fastfood or in management at a prestigious company - and my husband is like that too. I know many like that and also many who have a work ethic but are frustrated because they're not passionate about their work and want to find something they are passionate about.

[Fudgie]

I think teaching and learning interpersonal skills in the workplace is like learning how to act. It's all an act, really. It matters not your underlying disposition or psychological feelings if you know how to act appropriately and respond and "fit" your character to match who you're dealing with. You also have to have the resilience to do keep up the act when the going gets rough. I don't consider myself a people person or even a very empathetic person but I am a good actor so that's why I do well at my job.

 

It's not that it is "hard" as much as you have to be willing to learn how to play the game. There are lot of people who can't, young and old. It's their loss, IMO.

[Batya33]

I think teaching and learning interpersonal skills in the workplace is like learning how to act. It's all an act, really. It matters not your underlying disposition or psychological feelings if you know how to act appropriately and respond and "fit" your character to match who you're dealing with. You also have to have the resilience to do keep up the act when the going gets rough. I don't consider myself a people person or even a very empathetic person but I am a good actor so that's why I do well at my job.

 

It's not that it is "hard" as much as you have to be willing to learn how to play the game. There are lot of people who can't, young and old. It's their loss, IMO.

Yes - for some it's an act all the time. I think I'm almost every job you have to act at times. But I also think some have the social and interpersonal skills to be themselves more of the time than not. Surprisingly the biggest adjustment for me in going back to work was remembering all those working in an office skills - figuring out who really does what and how not to step on anyone's toes etc. even though so far I work with really good and fair people. Also helps that I can telework half the time. Even so it wouldn't have been a shock if I'd been told at my first performance review that is made a faux pas because nothing surprises me when it comes to office related reactions that you didn't see coming. So far so good though. I do agree that those do want to survive in an office and lack good innate interpersonal skills should probably take acting lessons lol or work from home....

[Fudgie]

Oh yeah for me it's an act all the time. I'm totally fake at work. Whether it's an act or not, it matters not, I think as long as the result is good and can be "kept up" so to speak.

[journeynow]

Fudgie, you make a good point. I think of it as a role, rather than an act. You learn your role, the role that is the job, and play the part.

[Fudgie]

Fudgie, you make a good point. I think of it as a role, rather than an act. You learn your role, the role that is the job, and play the part.

Yup, that's a good way to think about it. It's a role and a place. You learn it and then play it.

[Ms Darcy]

It's not that it is "hard" as much as you have to be willing to learn how to play the game. There are lot of people who can't, young and old. It's their loss, IMO.

 

I agree.

 

I don't think just anyone can learn to be a lawyer, a doctor, a software engineer, a CPA, a pharmacist etc etc just going through courses. Lots of people try very hard and don't cut it in the end.

 

But I think if someone's willing to play the game, act a certain way, play a certain role, and do so with resilience, they'll get the interpersonal skill side.

[Batya33]

I agree.

 

I don't think just anyone can learn to be a lawyer, a doctor, a software engineer, a CPA, a pharmacist etc etc just going through courses. Lots of people try very hard and don't cut it in the end.

 

But I think if someone's willing to play the game, act a certain way, play a certain role, and do so with resilience, they'll get the interpersonal skill side.

 

I think it depends on the type of career/job (sales or working on one's own, etc), and what the person's goal is - to keep the job, advance to management, get enough of a network so the person is more marketable outside the company, be a mentor, etc. With sales (not my job but have done it) it's not always about a "game" if you're dealing with the public and different people all the time.

 

You also need, many times, someone who is willing to guide you in the interpersonal skill area if it doesn't come naturally or if you didn't pick it up on your own. And that isn't easy to come by.

 

I agree not everyone can accomplish advanced degrees or acquire highly technical skills. And I know a number who have but lack the interpersonal skills and are befuddled as to why they are underemployed/not advancing as they should be.

[reinventmyself]

S flew in last night from spending 4 days with his family.

He worked the weekend prior and flies out again on Friday.

That's three weekends in a row. I took off last Monday and spent Sunday afternoon through Monday with him.

I try to be accommodating to his schedule and I can afford the time off.

He chose the weekend off in between to visit his family and assumes I'll take another week day off. . but. .nope!

He could have gone midweek but he would have missed his grandson who is in preschool. That was his choice and I am ok with that.

 

We've spent plenty of time together in the past few weeks.

But . . he needs to meet me halfway and accommodate to my schedule as well. The world doesn't rotate around his universe.

He'll drive up tomorrow and see me after work. It's not the best use of our time.

He spends more time in the car then he has face time with me.

But. . it's what we signed up for.

 

I've had some cramping lately. I've had a history of polyps and cysts but they never caused any pain.

I had an ultra sound last Friday and my doctor just moved up my appointment to return 2 days early. Trying not to worry but it took me 3 weeks to get into to see him. I am typically even keeled about this stuff. . but waiting almost 4 weeks for an apt and a result is wearing on me. Not to mention I didn't have any cramping for 3 or 4 days and for reasons I don't know, the cramping returned last night. . Booo.