Another online daing journal

[WithLove]

He's just going to string you along. All of your conversations with him after the break up.... He never mentioned reconciliation.

 

You're better than this. Block him and start your healing.

[reinventmyself]

It's that sick little voice that screws with me and I second guess myself. He never felt I was 'all in' the way he was. For that fact, most men have told me this. Makes me wonder about my responsibility.

But I was all in. Was it just more of his insecurity or was it the message I gave him? And the combination of the two being a perfect storm?

 

That little part of me that says if I show him that I really did care, because my silence and insistence of NC shows him otherwise?

Uhg. .the shame. Too reach out and get a response like that and know he'll likely go silent again.

All I know, is I won't do it again.

I got my answer.

What's wrong with me?

[notalady]

Don't beat yourself up too much. You know ego is a funny little thing. When I was seeing a guy casually (at the start of my last journal), at first I would obsess over him because he kept me at a distance, I think that felt like rejection of some kind. But once he told me he didn't want anything long term and I was calling things on and off as it suited me, to which he always agreed to, I stopped obsessing. I think it's the lack of control over the situation that makes you go a bit crazy.

[reinventmyself]

Don't beat yourself up too much. You know ego is a funny little thing. When I was seeing a guy casually (at the start of my last journal), at first I would obsess over him because he kept me at a distance, I think that felt like rejection of some kind. But once he told me he didn't want anything long term and I was calling things on and off as it suited me, to which he always agreed to, I stopped obsessing. I think it's the lack of control over the situation that makes you go a bit crazy.

 

My therapist pointed S's history of working abroad and not ever being near family, his children, grandchildren and his romantic relationship prior to ours. She lived with him, yet he chose to do 2 tours in Afghanistan post retirement, then staying in Baja half the year flying this family around and in between times visiting family in other states. It doesn't appear to be a coincidence. He lives in a beautiful home - near no one. He questions his own choices and often questioned `what it would be like if we spent a lot of time together?' That question has much more weight now then it did then.

 

I think our situation flushed out a lot of issues for him that he's been running from.

And I think that's why I get the warm response from him as well as the silent treatment following.

- As well as it triggering my issues about controlling men.

So in a lot of ways, it was the perfect storm.

 

I just read something `Resist seeking comfort from the very thing that hurts you'

[IAmFCA]

I really like that quote you posted. BTDT.

 

Your story strikes some chords with me because my exH, in my uninformed view, has a fundamental inability to be close to others. He has never, not since c. 1996, had a job that keeps him at home. Since c 2007, even with his new family, he has never - not once - had a job even in the same region. He will work from home, fly home on weekends, break up the time away with these short stints. Always, there is a toe in the water at some other location. Also, he frames this as a victim. It's the only work he can get etc. That's a crock - after 20 years, I call it a choice.

 

It is impossible to change such a person, of course. I found it impossible to find intimacy. His w. orders him around and he maintains private channels and rationalize that he is keeping the peace. It works for them. Not for me.

 

And, as you say, the experience made me see that I chose him because he is so remote, and then I was angry when I did not find him available. It was a pivotal and valuable learning experience for which I am grateful. That was just the tip of the iceberg.

 

It's painful. I hope the payoff is huge.

[Ms Darcy]

I can't really tell if this is a fair comment but ...

 

It seems like (when it comes to actually looking at the issues you both brought to the table) you spend most of your energy on your journal psychoanalyzing the ex and then 10 percent on you. And even the "on you" part is a bit superficial; basically, his issues triggered you.

 

I hope your therapist does more to look at YOUR history, understand YOUR patterns, look at YOUR choices. Because at the moment, he sounds like he's doing so much analysis on S that maybe S should be paying him.

 

I hope you go back to NAL's post about ego because it's something for you to consider. Egos are fragile, especially when they are not in control.

[reinventmyself]

I really like that quote you posted. BTDT.

 

Your story strikes some chords with me because my exH, in my uninformed view, has a fundamental inability to be close to others. He has never, not since c. 1996, had a job that keeps him at home. Since c 2007, even with his new family, he has never - not once - had a job even in the same region. He will work from home, fly home on weekends, break up the time away with these short stints. Always, there is a toe in the water at some other location. Also, he frames this as a victim. It's the only work he can get etc. That's a crock - after 20 years, I call it a choice.

 

It is impossible to change such a person, of course. I found it impossible to find intimacy. His w. orders him around and he maintains private channels and rationalize that he is keeping the peace. It works for them. Not for me.

 

And, as you say, the experience made me see that I chose him because he is so remote, and then I was angry when I did not find him available. It was a pivotal and valuable learning experience for which I am grateful. That was just the tip of the iceberg.

 

It's painful. I hope the payoff is huge.

And the scheme of keeping things fair. . this was not my first LDR, as my friends love the point out to me often.

And yes, he postures himself as a victim that he's not close to his sons or grandkids. Even though he's invited and welcomed. . it's his choice but he fails to see it.

And yes. . I can see my pattern of picking unavailable men gives the same outcome I am looking for. It's confusing that he seemed so `all in' all along but yet he said his ex stated he had commitment issues.

I can't make sense of the two.

[reinventmyself]

I can't really tell if this is a fair comment but ...

 

It seems like (when it comes to actually looking at the issues you both brought to the table) you spend most of your energy on your journal psychoanalyzing the ex and then 10 percent on you. And even the "on you" part is a bit superficial; basically, his issues triggered you.

 

I hope your therapist does more to look at YOUR history, understand YOUR patterns, look at YOUR choices. Because at the moment, he sounds like he's doing so much analysis on S that maybe S should be paying him.

 

I hope you go back to NAL's post about ego because it's something for you to consider. Egos are fragile, especially when they are not in control.

Trust me, 15 years with the same therapist, he'll deal with me.

Not to mention, I've already admitted more than once that it's my ego that's running the show anyway.

Not your most warm and fuzzy response Mrs D. But in spite of one of my more difficult days, I can handle it.

[IAmFCA]

And the scheme of keeping things fair. . this was not my first LDR, as my friends love the point out to me often.

And yes, he postures himself as a victim that he's not close to his sons or grandkids. Even though he's invited and welcomed. . it's his choice but he fails to see it.

And yes. . I can see my pattern of picking unavailable men gives the same outcome I am looking for. It's confusing that he seemed so `all in' all along but yet he said his ex stated he had commitment issues.

I can't make sense of the two.

 

Was like this too with my exH. Knew right away he wanted to marry me, even still will talk about the positive points of my skils, family's values, the way the kids are turning out. Said he'd never marry or have another child, but of course he did both, choosing to please his now w. One explanation seems to be that his sense of self is drawn so closely to his center that he can be whoever someone else asks him to be. His most intimate self isn't impacted. Having someone tell him what she requires give him a rule to follow.

 

I feel like this might be relevant to your experience, but maybe it isnt, and if not, I apologize for taking up your thread.

[IAmFCA]

Oh, and fwiw, one of my friends made the same observation of me as ms D made of you. It is a behavior common among avoidants. Turn the spotlight elsewhere, look like we are invested and helping and engaged, and protect ourselves from exposure. It took me a long time and a few fall on my face failures before I got it.

 

It may help to think of it as a way of avoiding intimacy, rather than as a criticism about ego. It may help to understand that everything you do is helpful to you, according to some sort of inner logic. If its a given that you excel at avoiding intimacy, in what way is that skill helpful?

[Ms Darcy]

Trust me, 15 years with the same therapist, he'll deal with me.

Not to mention, I've already admitted more than once that it's my ego that's running the show anyway.

Not your most warm and fuzzy response Mrs D. But in spite of one of my more difficult days, I can handle it.

 

I'm sorry. I don't mean to hurt your feelings. If I can put it another way ... perhaps a huge part of why this hits you so hard is because he walked away before you were mentally ready. So, the perceived rejection is simultaneously uncovering feelings of inadequacy and feelings of longing. In both ways, he improves because you perhaps want him to see the value of you and value of being with you.

 

So maybe try to think about if you really think he's the honest to goodness best man and partner you could ever be with for the rest of your life. If the answer is no, then there is light at the end of the tunnel.

[IAmFCA]

I'm sorry. I don't mean to hurt your feelings. If I can put it another way ... perhaps a huge part of why this hits you so hard is because he walked away before you were mentally ready. So, the perceived rejection is simultaneously uncovering feelings of inadequacy and feelings of longing. In both ways, he improves because you perhaps want him to see the value of you and value of being with you.

 

So maybe try to think about if you really think he's the honest to goodness best man and partner you could ever be with for the rest of your life. If the answer is no, then there is light at the end of the tunnel.

 

And if he is the honest to goodness best judge of who you are. Better than your own judgment?

 

Oh my goodness, twinsies. Seriously. Push through this with your therapist and in your mind. You are not alone, and to me, you're as normal as the milk and bread in my kitchen.

 

You have gotten this far. You can do this.

[reinventmyself]

When I went to see my therapist last week my opening statement was that I wasn't there to demonize S, and he didn't have the benefit of telling his side of the story.

 

My goal for going was two fold. To have someone reinforce for me that was S was doing was wrong, but mostly to learn some (more) things about myself and my patterns for dating men who have a different shade of the same outcome. I flat out told him that I am not a victim here and I learn nothing by not learning from my mistakes.

 

I learned this lesson long ago, that focusing on someone else is a waste of time and my time is best spent learning about myself and my patterns. After all that is the only thing I have control of.

Focusing on S's faults teaches me nothing.

 

But at the same time it was imperative to address them. When my therapist first met me I had an uncanny ability to not notice screaming red flags, while simultaneously wondering what was wrong with me. I couldn't spread the responsibility fairly. I sucked it all up.

 

So for me to go in and have him point out the obvious where S is concerned is just the start and only fair.

I will go back tonight and from here we'll address all of my responsibilities.

 

Thank you for the kind comments. Yesterday was not a good day. Today is somewhat better.

[reinventmyself]

Still trying to process my therapy appointment from last night.

I responded to my therapists question from last week about `what is it about me that attracts these types of men' (and why I am attracted)

As much as I have given it some thought, I first needed to know what he meant by `these' as if there was a common denominator in them and if so I needed to hear from him what `these' meant.

I don't recall his exact words but the jest of it was - control. I knew it but didn't want to hear it.

 

We touched on passivity, which an ex called me once (and I disputed) When the rubber met the road in the end I showed him I wasn't passive. He didn't much care for that and I told him I think he may have thought he signed up for one thing and got another in the end.

My therapist gave me the word `permissive' instead.

Though I was able to state my boundaries firmly I don't do very well on acting on them. After all I keep coming back and/or staying.

I have learned to leave but I leave when it's far too late.

 

Though S gave me plenty signs early on and tested me, I still stayed with the `buy in' that he was `working on it'.

He added it's not a bad thing to try to faith in someone and give them a chance, but at some point you need to know when to leave, sooner not later. You were getting there, he just beat you to the punch.

 

I stay and second guess myself and there is something about the dynamic between me and the men in my life, that they know as I am processing things, or over processing things that I start to get lost along the way, second guessing and doubting myself.

After all if S is projecting insecurity, am I projecting control? Who's on first??

 

It's the defense mechanism that protects me from the disappointment of leaving, when it's the very protect mechanism I am ignoring that is telling me to abort.

I am always on the look out for a man that can offer me empathy. It's my Achilles heal in a way and for the life of me I seem to find men that are incapable. S had all these insecurities that we had to constantly address. I bent over backwards giving him the very thing I wanted.

Empathy.

Apparently I did that backwards too. My therapist telling me that you don't feed into someone's insecurities when it's theirs to deal with.

In some backwards way the more empathetic I was towards S, the more I assumed I would get in return. But didn't. To tell a very insecure person how you are feeling injures them in some way. They just can't handle it.

The crazy making conversations and S's ability to see things in only black and white.

And how -if S felt something, then to him was factual-

There was no disputing it. But feelings are not facts.

There was no consoling him. Though I thought if I could prove to him he was mistaken and I was to be trusted then everything would be ok.

There mere fact that I even tried to make it better was probably making it worse.

 

My therapist gave me the dialog I ought to have had with S in the very beginning when the insecurity problems started. I shook my head and responded. `If I said those very things it would have been over before it started.'

[notalady]

Re the last sentence, maybe that's what should have happened - over before it started?

 

What is it that your therapist said you should have said in the beginning when the insecurity problems started?

[reinventmyself]

Re the last sentence, maybe that's what should have happened - over before it started?

 

What is it that your therapist said you should have said in the beginning when the insecurity problems started?

 

Well. . I don't know if I could have said it before it started. I didn't know it existed.

 

But the first two conflicts were very telling, the one where he blamed me for kissing his friend hello (who has a long history of greeting S's girlfriends that way) That same evening w/o taking a breath, the warning about my male friend that I dated 12 years ago, who happened to be engaged and living with his fiancé at the time. S had noticed benign comments from him on my FB page that happened to creep and look it. He had a `feeling' that was factual and aggressively warned me that my friendship with him would be problem. Only to come back the following week and say that he saw a different side of me because I never apologized for anything I did that night he brought these things up?? I remained patient while he railed me and in the end I told him I was getting angry because he was challenging my integrity and I wasn't having any of it.

 

That and the time he barked at me in the restaurant when I commented that I have civil relationship with my ex for the sake of my sons. I got quiet, embarrassed and shut down. When we got back to S's house and I couldn't leave because I had taken the trawe had a circular conversation where I was trying to explain how in the moment his aggressiveness and insulations had gone too far and it was upsetting. Instead he was the victim yet threw out to placate me a `sorry' Only moments after he asks me `So if rolling over and letting you win, is what is would take to make you feel better?"

[reinventmyself]

My editing from my phone has butchered this and deleted the ending. I'll fix it when I get back from lunch

[reinventmyself]

. .cont if rolling over and letting you win, is what is would take to make you feel better?"

 

UGh. . Maybe I am repeating myself in my stories, but I did tell him the things he said were not ok in those moments and that he went to far. I did tell him that he needed to get a handle on this or it would be an "issue".

 

But what my therapist displayed was much more firm, definite terms. I don't recall exactly. But basically`It's stops or I am out' and "with that I will walk"

No more empathy, no more accommodating or making excuses. No more making what I thought was a bold statement only to return and do the same thing over and over and patting him on the head when I thought I saw improvement when deep down inside I suspect he just got better at hiding it.

[Ms Darcy]

Still trying to process my therapy appointment from last night.

I responded to my therapists question from last week about `what is it about me that attracts these types of men' (and why I am attracted)

As much as I have given it some thought, I first needed to know what he meant by `these' as if there was a common denominator in them and if so I needed to hear from him what `these' meant.

I don't recall his exact words but the jest of it was - control. I knew it but didn't want to hear it.

 

We touched on passivity, which an ex called me once (and I disputed) When the rubber met the road in the end I showed him I wasn't passive. He didn't much care for that and I told him I think he may have thought he signed up for one thing and got another in the end.

My therapist gave me the word `permissive' instead.

Though I was able to state my boundaries firmly I don't do very well on acting on them. After all I keep coming back and/or staying.

I have learned to leave but I leave when it's far too late.

 

Though S gave me plenty signs early on and tested me, I still stayed with the `buy in' that he was `working on it'.

He added it's not a bad thing to try to faith in someone and give them a chance, but at some point you need to know when to leave, sooner not later. You were getting there, he just beat you to the punch.

 

I stay and second guess myself and there is something about the dynamic between me and the men in my life, that they know as I am processing things, or over processing things that I start to get lost along the way, second guessing and doubting myself.

After all if S is projecting insecurity, am I projecting control? Who's on first??

 

It's the defense mechanism that protects me from the disappointment of leaving, when it's the very protect mechanism I am ignoring that is telling me to abort.

I am always on the look out for a man that can offer me empathy. It's my Achilles heal in a way and for the life of me I seem to find men that are incapable. S had all these insecurities that we had to constantly address. I bent over backwards giving him the very thing I wanted.

Empathy.

Apparently I did that backwards too. My therapist telling me that you don't feed into someone's insecurities when it's theirs to deal with.

In some backwards way the more empathetic I was towards S, the more I assumed I would get in return. But didn't. To tell a very insecure person how you are feeling injures them in some way. They just can't handle it.

The crazy making conversations and S's ability to see things in only black and white.

And how -if S felt something, then to him was factual-

There was no disputing it. But feelings are not facts.

There was no consoling him. Though I thought if I could prove to him he was mistaken and I was to be trusted then everything would be ok.

There mere fact that I even tried to make it better was probably making it worse.

 

My therapist gave me the dialog I ought to have had with S in the very beginning when the insecurity problems started. I shook my head and responded. `If I said those very things it would have been over before it started.'

 

Another consideration is that I'm not sure that you really want what you think you want. If your #1 thing for a man is empathy, you also have to define what you see empathy as. Your brand of empathy seems to be in line with seeing that you are right or have valid points and genuinely validating your perspective.

 

In some of the conflicts you have had with S, it's about stuff that doesn't seem important ... to me at least. It becomes a control thing where both of you wanted to be right.

 

So, do you really think you can realistically expect the brand of empathy you are looking for in a romantic partner? I mean, I get the sense that it might have to be the kind of guy who has a lot of "feminine" traits ... and who is passive, willing to go along with what your perspective is when you feel strongly about something, go with the flow, not really big on taking initiative to plan. And I'm not sure you would be attracted to a guy who's actually like that.

 

I'm not trying to be harsh. Just trying to get you to think about what the empathy has played out to be in the romantic situations. I mean, empathetic traits (I care for dogs, lions, etc.) is different from I want you to be feel and agree with my perspective.

 

Just something to think about.

[notalady]

Just chiming in, I don't think of empathy as caring for animals (or people even), I see it as the ability to jump out of your "self" and whatever position you hold at that point and put yourself in someone else's shoes, being able to identify that from the other person's perspective, whatever they are saying or doing seems reasonable or at least understandable. A lot of people find it hard to even see the other person's perspective and say well I can see your point and understand why you hold this position / view even though I don't agree. What they do with that is of course up to the person, hopefully it helps better communication when both parties can identify with the other despite any disagreement.

 

I feel that this is what reinvent was looking for, but if I'm wrong she could clarify

[notalady]

Re the last sentence, maybe that's what should have happened - over before it started?

 

What is it that your therapist said you should have said in the beginning when the insecurity problems started?

 

Reinvent, maybe my post wasn't clear but what I'm trying to ascertain is what your therapist thought you could've said or done at the beginning when problems first started to arise and what would've been the result of that - that is, would it have ended things after one or two incidents/red flags (you could call it ending before it started?) instead of this far down the road.

[reinventmyself]

Another consideration is that I'm not sure that you really want what you think you want. If your #1 thing for a man is empathy, you also have to define what you see empathy as. Your brand of empathy seems to be in line with seeing that you are right or have valid points and genuinely validating your perspective.

 

In some of the conflicts you have had with S, it's about stuff that doesn't seem important ... to me at least. It becomes a control thing where both of you wanted to be right.

 

So, do you really think you can realistically expect the brand of empathy you are looking for in a romantic partner? I mean, I get the sense that it might have to be the kind of guy who has a lot of "feminine" traits ... and who is passive, willing to go along with what your perspective is when you feel strongly about something, go with the flow, not really big on taking initiative to plan. And I'm not sure you would be attracted to a guy who's actually like that.

 

I'm not trying to be harsh. Just trying to get you to think about what the empathy has played out to be in the romantic situations. I mean, empathetic traits (I care for dogs, lions, etc.) is different from I want you to be feel and agree with my perspective.

 

Just something to think about.

 

Oh wow. . You speak in pretty definitive terms given my cliff notes, so I don't think we are either on the same page (about my personal experience) or maybe you aren't reading what I have written correctly or it's very possible I am not explaining well. Or all the above.

I am just not up to explaining it better for you at this time. It isn't helping.

Trust me on one thing. I know what empathy looks like.

 

Time to take a break from here.

[Ms Darcy]

I mean you're right. It's definitely possible since I am speaking from memory and impression that I might have misinterpreted some things.

 

I was just hoping you might consider that perhaps you might look at things from another lens. Can you consider that what you were looking for is not what you are looking for? Perhaps that is a meaningful road to travel.

[Realitynut]

Though I thought if I could prove to him he was mistaken

Ex and I would always go round and round on this. He would say...you ALWAYS have to be right. But you're WRONG!

 

Well...if me thinking I'm right....(but he says I'm wrong) then that mean HE wants to be right.

 

I tried to tell him one day...it's NOT about who's right or wrong....but he wouldn't hear anything I had to say. Ugh. Relationships are so hard.

 

I guess it's a power struggle. Everyone wants to be heard. I think I'm a pushover, since I'm always accepting his BAD treatment of him. He told me last night that I was hard-headed, head strong, independent. Where....believe me....when someone stands there crying when someone is abusing you verbally and emotionally....makes ME (I think) weak and dependent.

 

But he sees me as controlling....and I see HIM as controlling. I try to tell him there are different types of 'control'. Him telling me NO all the time is control. No I won't put up a Christmas tree, No I wont take you with me, No ....all the time. He told me once, he should just be able to say NO...and I say...OK.

 

Dang.

[reinventmyself]

Though I thought if I could prove to him he was mistaken

 

.

 

Taken out of context we can run with my comment but for clarification the sticking point in this one particular comment was: I was trying to prove to him that I was trustworthy and he was mistaken that I was not. So if could prove to him by my actions with that silly, naive notion 'if I loved him enough' idea and prove something to him then everything would ok.