charley

True. I would and have hugged men under special circumstances, but I'll hug women anytime they'll let me.

FYI - most of the arranged marriages I mentioned where I personally know the people involved have worked out very well over 10+ years and they are very happy together. A couple of them are unhappy marriages. However, those stats are actually better than the USA national norm by far. Perhaps parents know a few things after all? Yet, I'm against arranged marriages where one person or both are forced to marry someone they don't want. If they both feel they want each other, then it's fine that they had help finding each other.

Isn't that still the case today? You can get an anullment any time prior to sex? I think that's still the law in USA. Isn't it? I saw on history channel that in Medieval Russia, the clergy (priest or bishop) was also present, especially if a royal wedding. Family present to. All for legal witnesses. So not just present, but watching every detail to make sure.

Into her or not, it was very rude and inconsiderate. A gentleman would bring the lady home no matter what, unless she didn't want him to. I think he's a jerk.

You are a good woman. It's his loss. Forget him now. Move on. When you see him, act like none of this ever happened and you're all business and you barely know him, but you're still polite, but not friendly to him anymore.

You said people. I have no problem hugging women. What's gay about that? With men it is uncomfortable for me and them. So shake hands or pat their shoulder or back once.

I used to work from home all the time. Then I was so lonely that when I went out in public I acted weird, which only made it more difficult. Luckily I get out EVERY day now and go to other job every day. If I'm not to work at other job, I go visit anyway. I've got many friends there and some are babes and fun to look at too.

Yep. Working from home is great and terrible. I work one job from home, the other I go to office. That is ideal because I get variety. Sorry you are so lonely. Get out more. Go visit friends often. Excercise outdoors, weather permitting. Also, get your radio rockin in the background. Mine is right now. That helps a lot. E helps to, but be careful because it can become addictive and interfere with work and local social life, thereby leaving you either unemployed, or more locally socially isolated.

I don't interpret what she said as wanting to have sex with you. I think she just wanted to talk and meant exactly what she said. She said she wished she'd have met a nice guy like you. She never said she wants to sleep with you. I think you are jumping to wild and unfounded conclusions. Just assume that's not what she meant. And no, you should not ever have sex with her, even if that is what she meant. It would torment you for life. She needs love, not sex. You can give her love. There are plenty of platonic affectionate physical contact things you can do for her, like holding her hand, run your fingers through her hair, massage her scalp. Those things are really nice and comforting in an affectionate, non-sexual way. If you had sex with her, you'd mentally hurt her and mess her up worse, and damage yourself mentally for life. Also, what if your parents found out? It would destroy your entire family and you would never be allowed to visit your sister again. Then she'd be alone. Do not have sex with her.

I earlier posted that gold diggers are rare and harmless. Well, they are rare since most women are better than that. They are harmless to me personally, and to many guys who have some intuition and sense with women. A native mistrust is a good survival trait. I have that mistrust until the facts are in. However, there are also vulnerable, naive, trusting men who have money and are lonely and defenseless to gold diggers. These guys can fall in love with them. My dad told me a true story about a guy he was friends with. The guy had a lot of money and a successful business. He was a millionare. He was married and totally devoted to his wife, who seemed OK. However, his business failed and he went bankrupt. His wife complainted and berated him constantly about his business failure and how she hated being broke. She told him she hated him for losing all their money, and things like that. She said she was leaving him and wanted a divorce. He made all that money, not her. Who is she to talk to him like that? What happened to her love? It appeared to vanish with the money, but in reality it apparently was never there. He continued to love her though. I mean he was still crazy in love with her. He told my dad that he wanted to kill himself so that his wife could collect on his life insurance policy. My dad called another friend to come talk to this poor man. My dad and this other friend tried to talk some sense into him. They told him that she never loved him anyway and thereforeeee she's no loss. He wouldn't listen. He loved her so much he didn't want to live without her. He felt guilty for losing their money. My dad and the other friend told him that life insurance wouldn't pay on a suicide anyway, so just forget it and move on. They did everything they could to console him. A week later he was killed in an accidental gasoline fire in his back yard. The fire department concluded that he was pouring gasoline into his hot lawn mower engine and somehow got gasoline all over himself and the hot law mower and it ignited. He was burned alive and died on the scene. The insurance company never questioned that it was an accident because who would burn themself alive on purpose? We don't know what actually happened since we were not there. We can only guess. His poor grief stricken, crying widow eventually collected on a huge life insurance policy. His wife does not know her husband had confided in friends. FYI - this true story happened a few years ago in my local area. =========== While the vast majority of women are good people with a strong sense of fair play, honor, and decency, a small minority of women are vile human beings who use men and couldn't care less if the man loves her. In this case, he loved her to death. So gold diggers are not harmless. They ruin and destroy the lives of men who cannot, or will not, see them for what they are. A man who see's them for what they are can choose to avoid them (as I do); or use them for sex as one of my employers and bosses does. A man who does not see them for what they are can fall in love with a gold digger and have his life destroyed. Even lose his life. I just recently (few months back) saw on news where this man fell in love with a gold digger he met online. He went on a vacation with her in another country and ended up being tortured by her and her BF into giving all his bank account numbers and passwords, etc. When they'd emptied his accounts, they murdered him. They were caught later. I earlier said gold diggers are harmless and comical. Well, they are to me because I'm immune since I reognize them and I don't currently have enough money to be worth their trouble. So I'm immune and can laugh about their antics with me, when I very occasionally run into one. I only very occasionally run into one (like once a year), and when I do, it's a case of mistaken identity where they've mistook me for someone with money. I quickly make them realize they're not barking up a money tree. So they are harmless to me personally. However, they ruin some other men. Men with money who are naive and loving, and fall in love with them and trust them. That is a disaster in the making.

I should add that one reason I'm still a baby face is that I do not ever intentionally tan my face. It gets enough in the summer from walking around, even with my straw hat on. My face does not need any extra sun and I'm protecting it. I do intentionally tan my body though, except forearms since they already get plenty walking around in a polo shirt. The rest of my body needs some sun to make sure I don't get acne, and skin cancer and wrinkles are not a concern since those parts of my body are normally covered and not getting any sun. So my total exposure in my life in those areas (legs, back, chest) is going to still be less than my face, which I protect from sun. I would like to do some tanning salon tanning, but I'll keep a towel over my face. My face get's plent of sun in summer, even with a straw hat and brim. I don't want more sun on my face. ======== I look about 15+ years younger or more than some women I graduated high school with, if those women are life long tanners. I look about 8+ years young for my age, they look 8+ years old for their age. Their looks are aging much faster than mine. Some of them could be confused by a stranger as being my mother. Yipes. ======== Also, I have observed some senior men who take their shirt off. They have wrinkled faces, but zero wrinkes on their chest or back. The skin on their chest and back looks like a 25 year old. The skin on their face and arms (exposed to sun while working outdoors all their life) looks like an 80 year old. Draw you own conclusions.

I don't think tanning in moderation is bad for a person. Actually, it has some health benefits, if done in moderation. The UV disinfects the skin much deeper than alcohol or anything else can. So it's a great treatment for acne, or a prevention. It can also kill and thereby cure various skin infections and external mold like atheletes foot. I've cure atheletes foot that way in summer. I've also used tanning it to cure my acne in the past. However, that was natural sun in summer, but same thing applies I think. Of course, tanning to excess is harmful and will make you look like a wrinkled old shoe by the time you're 30 to 35, if some of the women I went to high school with are any indication. It could also kill you from skin cancer. However, in moderation, I think it's good for a person, especially in a cold, dark Northern climate that lacks adequate sun.

Right on ^. My point exactly. I'd start off with, "That's a nice ring." That's usually all I need to say and then they start explaining. If not, then I can follow with, "What's it for?" If I find she's taken, then I can take the casual wrap-up route like you did, or if she's really fun to talk to, I can remain friends with her, but not ask her out. Everything Dako said is also totally valid. It all depends on the people, and maybe their mood.

Yep. That is confusing. Likewise they can verbally confuse a guy with what they say, or don't say. So looking and listening for signs is not a sure thing. However, many folks, as you initially indicated, do give good signs (verbal, visual, or otherwise). I want to look and listen for signs, but not rely to much on them. Maybe they don't like being married? However, I can relate. I hate rings because they make my fingers hurt. Turns out I'm allergic to silver. A gold ring would be fine for me though. Silver is known to aggravate arthritis, just as copper and gold are known to either help, or at least not hurt. In general, I don't want a ring on my finger. So I understand.

Ya, most women do give good hints, and some are so obvious that a moron can't miss them. However, some women don't give much, if any hints, or they are very subtle, or maybe they just enjoy talking to me and think of me as a friend and I just haven't been properly observing and I misunderstood. Maybe she's attracted to me and I'm picking that up, even though she's not available, and she's not doing anything to let me know she's not available. Maybe it's my fault, maybe no one's fault, or maybe her's. It varies widely. Sometimes it's clear as a bell that she's not available, but other times it's not. The point of my advice is to be observant and ask questions, if things are not clear. Also, women under 30 nowadays do wear an amazing assortment of rings and various jewelry that has no signifigance other than they like it. However, sometimes it does have signifigance. I had a specific situation about a year ago where I was talking to a young woman in her 20s in my fav shoe store. She was totally enjoying talking to me and into me, at least for conversation. Maybe she was attracted to me. It seemed so. I think both. There was ongoing eye contact, mutual smiles, and a 5+ minute conversation, and no she wasn't waiting on me. She was just having a conversation with me. I was very attracted to her. As is characteric of me, I made no effort to ask her out because I was chicken. However, I then walked twice around the mall agonizing between wanting her and my shyness. I decided to go for it, right after a cup of coffee. I guess I needed one last stall. I went back and she was pleased to see me again and we talked a little and I was going to tell her that she is interesting, fun to talk to, beautiful, and I was attracted to her, then ask her out. However, I noticed a ring on her right hand ring finger. What's that? It's not tradtional to wear a ring there. Looks like junk jewelry to me, not a serious ring, but I was interested and worried. So I asked about it showing my interest and hiding my worry. She told me it was a promise ring from her BF. She never even realized I was attracted to her, or maybe she did and enjoyed it. I don't know. Maybe she just likes good conversation and jokes. So I gracefully concluded the conversation and left with no harm done. I learned to "fear the rings" from an earlier incident with a very friendly woman who loved my jokes, compliments, and conversation. I even told her she was beautiful (I'd had a drink) and she liked it very much and thanked me. This went 20 minutes to 30 minutes one day a week, for several weeks. One day I did finally ask her out. She then showed me her engagement ring that I had never noticed because I hadn't thought to look. Things were very uncomfortable after that and she was never relaxed around me again. I stopped going there. She had just liked me as a friend. That's all. Maybe she was attracted to me (seemed so), but in an unavailable type way, and she assumed her ring would make me understand that. It didn't, because I was inexperienced and naive. That was a painful and embarrassing lesson and it cost me a friend. Not a close friend yet, but she could have become a close platonic friend, if I hadn't ruined it. Approaching women is sometimes easy, but often not. It's not always as simple as Dako says, though I wish it was. Sometimes it is easy. Sometimes NOT. The fact that there are thousands of threads at this forum from men asking how to approach a woman, and thousands more asking what went wrong is proof positive that this stuff is not easy for many men. All the hints that Dako said in his post are good advice and things to pay attention to. Some women are great about giving good hints. However, some women are not good about it as I explained in my post. I just wanted to help P.Dragon to be alert and make visual observations about rings. Yes, also make observations about what she says, but don't count on clear signals. The signals might be clear, garbled, or absent. If you don't understand, then I'd investigate with questions, or wait until later, before asking her out. The more conversation you have with her, the more you'll learn, even if she's not consciously dropping hints. The worst possible thing that could happen is minor embarrassment. It won't kill a guy, especially not a semi-cocky can do guy like P.Dragon. However, it's still nice to avoid embarrassing moments, if possible. For what it's worth, I regret the many times I chickened out and didn't try far more than the times I did try and was turned down, or embarrassed myself. I've also succeeded some too. I have asked women out and got the date enough times to know I can do it. Just to add that. I've also been asked out a few times. Love that. I wish women would do it more.

Maybe I missed the hints, or maybe they were just friendly. Maybe I'm not as smart as you. No matter what, it's always good to pay attention to rings. If you'd like to help him, please do. I'm sure he'd appreciate it. I'm sure you have good advice to share with him.

Sooner than 12 years. Ha ha. Couldn't resist. My intuition was a week, but I've heard from my local women friends that's to long. I didn't want to call to soon and look desperate. My friends say 3 to 5 days. 7 days is to long. I now think 3 days is ideal. It's a nice compromise between looking desperate vs. indifferent. And don't lose that number like I did that one time. Isn't there a song about that?

P.S. - don't forget to look her left hand over for a promise ring, engagement ring, or wedding ring. If she's got a ring on the wrong finger or hand, then just feign interest in the ring and tell her it's an interesting ring and ask what it means. Sometimes those are promise rings (got a BF). Othertimes they're a gift from mom, or she just likes junk jewelry. Checking out the rings, or lack of, and askng if you aren't sure can save you from some embarrassment. It's really embarrasing trying to ask out a married or engaged woman and the ring is on her finger in plain sight, but you never looked. Been there. Done that. I don't ever want to feel that stupid or blush that much again.

To whom it may concern: P.Dragon just PM'd me that he met a local woman he finds attractive who meets his ideal of beauty. He wanted some advice from me about approaching her. I PM'd him this advice first, and then requested his permission to post it. He told me to go ahead and post it. I want to post it because it raises some valid concerns and issues that were not previously addressed in this thread. My advice to P.Dragon follows: =================== OK dude. Now the chubby comments don't offend me, cause I'm not a woman. I think it was OK for you to post your preferences and although your choice of wording was not diplomatic, I don't know of any more diplomatic word you could have used that would have conveyed your meaning and description. However, that was a post at a forum where you were asking for advice. This will be a "one on one" meeting and conversation with a woman. That's entirely different from publicly posting to a group at a forum. You are not asking for her for advice or her opinion (like at forum). So there is no need to use any references or words pertaining to her weight. Do NOT mention her weight at all. Do not mention her figure at all, unless you just want to make a vague, generic, polite and tradtional compliment like "I'm attracted to you", or "I think you're beautiful". Those compliments are nice, polite, safe, traditional, and sufficiently vague enough to avoid offending most women. We've both seen in your thread how hurt and/or angry the subject of weight is to some women. Probably most women. In the forum most women cut you slack on that because you are asking for information. However, in a one on one situation, you will not be cut any slack on that. Any reference to her being heavy, or her weight is going to hurt her feelings. So go ahead and get as turned on by her looks at you please, but don't tell her that you are into chubby women. It will hurt her. Just tell her you like her, or that you are attracted to her, or she's beautiful, or just say hi and find a subject to talk about. Use your imagination. Ask others for advice, if you like, but do NOT mention her weight or build! Do NOT tell her your reason for attraction or your preferences, or make any reference to her weight. Understand? Good luck buddy. There's many good threads on approaching women, and not one of them mentions telling her you like chubby women. Keep that information to yourself when you meet her, and forever. She does not want to know that. It's OK to tell her she's beautiful, but not why you think so, considering your reason(s). If she ever asks you if she's fat, it's a trick question. Never say yes. Just tell her that she's beautiful. Just don't mention why she's beautiful. The weight topic must never be mentioned. NEVER. Good luck P.Dragon. Go chat her up. Say hi. Start a conversation about... You have to figure that part out. Forum is full of advice on that subject. Maintain eye contact when you talk to her. I mean eye to eye, not eye to boob. Get it? Listen to her and respond so that the conversation is about her interests. Oh ya, flash that million dollar smile of yours and share your humor, but keep it polite and reasonably PC. Let us know how it goes. I'm rooting for you.

Excellent topic. I'll have to read this thread later when I have time. Based only on the OP, I'd not ask someone else to go on a date the same day, not only for ethics reasons, but also for practical reasons. Do something alone or with a guy friend. I'll read other posts after OP later to learn more. What I posted above comes just from my internal compass.

I've stayed away from E for 1.5 days so that I could think things over, and what I may have done wrong to offend a couple women, and how serious my offense might be. I'm very sorry I offended anyone because I don't want to offend or hurt anyone. However, all I said was that this thread is very entertaining and somewhat educational. That's not a bad thing to say. Many people find this thread entertaining. So that's not my opinion, it's a 12 page fact (and growing). This thread is educational because I’ve learned many things here and I know others have too. Now it should be said that P.Dragon is a small man. He is thin. No offense intended to P.Dragon and I know he won’t take offense. I'm just stating a fact. So his ideas of “chubby” are skewed because he is thin and he's used to thinking of Asian women as being the norm. No ladies should take his use of the word "chubby" seriously. That might be his stated ideal woman, but it's clear to me that his ideal woman is only slightly heavy to normal build for a white woman, not chubby. So don't get your feelings hurt over his choice of words. Consider the source. No offense P.Dragon. I think you're an awesomely cool guy, even if your idea of chubby is skewed. What I think P.Dragon likes is tall shapely women who might be normal weight, or 10 lbs overweight at most. He doesn’t know what chubby means to most of us. Others are free to state what they are attracted to. So why can't he? I've seen women post many times what they like in a man's looks. How is that any different? FYI - I'm personally what P.Dragon would call chubby myself. I'm OK with that. I'm about 10 lbs overweight, though many women friends tell me I look ideal weight. A woman at E has called me chubby before. I didn’t like it, but I didn't go postal over it. I don't care if I am chubby. I don't even care if I have 2 eyebrows. I used to be 55 lbs overweight. Even then I was not sensitive about it, except that I had size B breasts (I estimate) at that time. Yuck. My sister teased me cruelly about being fat, having boobs, and she was always trying to give me T-Twisters. I was embarrassed and humiliated about that, especially considering I'm a guy, but that motivated me to lose weight and I did lose 45 lbs over a year and have kept it off for a full 3 years. Ironically, she's the fat one now. Ha ha. However, her husband likes her that way. So it worked out for her and she's happy. I never tease her about her weight because she'd get really hurt about it (double standard?), even though she had been very cruel to me earlier. Point being, if you don't like your weight, do something about it. P.Dragon doesn't like his weight either. He's self conscious about being thin. He's doing something about it by weight lifting. If you are comfortable with your weight as is, then be happy with yourself as you are. If not, then change yourself. You can do it. Chronically sick people cannot decide to stop being sick. Permanently handicapped people cannot decide to stop being handicapped. I know because I'm missing 3 disks in my mostly fused neck and one in my partly fused back, plus my left hand is held together by 4 screws and my left knee needs to be internally cleaned now, and maybe repaired later. My earlier injuries brought on a severe case of rheumatoid arthritis. I won't even go into the side effects of my injection med that controls arthur by reducing my immune system. I'm still often in chronic pain and cannot take pain pills due to them having given me an ulcer in the past. Ulcer healed and gone now, but no more pain pills except temporarily in extreme emergency – like when screaming in pain last couple weeks (better now). What is being overweight compared to that? I'm permanently handicapped, some of you are merely overweight, you can go on a diet. Other people are terminally ill, you can go on a diet. Put that into perspective and get a grip on yourselves people. I wish I was fat instead of handicapped. Then I could go on a diet like I did before, plus exercise. Some problems are solvable, others must be endured, and some kill us. Be thankful if your worst problem is being overweight. It's a solvable problem, if you choose to solve it and work at it. However, if you are happy with your weight as is, then be happy as you are. Please allow P.Dragon the freedom to say who he is attracted to. Many women exercise that same freedom in their threads and posts about their preferences in men. It's also nice to see that most ladies like P.Dragon. They must see his innate goodness as I do, and his cool smile.

I had posted earlier to P.Dragon that his thread has entertainment and educational value. Really? I apologize then. I'm sorry CB. I didn't mean any harm. Neither did P.Dragon. Some of the women seem to like him a lot, so I didn't realize things were so out of hand. I apologize to CarnelianButterfly, Batya, and women in general. I mean that sincerely. Please forgive me.

I personally know women who've had good size breasts and then dieted and excercised and lost a full breast size, or more. So yes, it's defineatley possible. I've seen it done by women I personall know. As a matter of fact, isn't that exactly what Jennifer Anniston did? I liked her better when she was shaplier and heavier and curvier. Now she's skinny and her breast size is defineatly smaller. My eyes say so. I miss her larger breasts, rounder hips, and shaplier legs from before, but I don't get a vote. With weight loss in general, your skin will tighten as you lose weight and not be saggy or loose, IF YOU LOSE THE WEIGHT SLOWLY. I should know since I lost 45 lbs over a year's time and don't have a wrinkle or a sag from it because I lost it slowly. That was 3 years ago and I've kept it off. Oh ya, I went from having some breasts myself to having none, thank God. My stomach is also gone. If you lose weight fast, then your skin will be loose, saggy, and might stay that way. However, there must be ways to deal with that. How do women tigthen up their tummy skin after a baby? I'd suggest losing weight slowly by a combination of diet and excercise and keep making your bra smaller as needed because my intuition tells me that would help prevent sagging.

Try both. I'm sure he won't complain no matter what you do. Part of the fun should be the experimenting. The fact that you don't know is part of the fun, IMO. Asking for advice on this is like asking to hear the ending to a movie before you see it. Wouldn't it be more fun to just find out in due course?

That's worked awesome for me, especially if they were already an acquaintance. I love the library - books, smart women patrons, librarians. The library has it all! Nothing turns me on like a young sexy librarian peering at me over her glasses. That's my type! To me, young is any woman under 35. I'll change my definition of young as I get older.