heyduh

and to follow up on my post .... ever wonder how (and why??) there are so many self-help books on how to rekindle the romance or keep the flame burning in long term relationships???? its coz we all long for that cocaine addiction even though many of us are very pleased and content to settle into a loving (not "in love") deep and meaningful relationship often times extra marital affairs actually bring the spark back into a dying marriage ... ! i truly believe that we must take full 100% responsibility for the relationship so the key to success is keep injecting doses of the cocaine addiction type of chemical reaction in our long term relationships ... how do we do that? by regularly doing things that make them fall in love with us again ... how?? read those books!!! seriously .... just look around your own lives, friends families at the REALLY successful long term relationships ... they may seem boring for the most part, but every now and then they do something EXCITING .. to give each other that cocaine addiction again so, the really happy folks get the best of all chemicals (seratonin, oxytocin, dopamime) ... and also get the best of all emotions ... passion, lusty sex, romance AND emotional bonding, attachment etc i feel like going back to grad school just to study and research love-biochemistry ... too bad i have a freakin mortgage to pay off !

i think people who use "not in love with you anymore" are really saying "you are fck-able, but i can do better than you" ... ok i'm exaggerating ... c'mon people. we ALL are reasonably intelligent. we ALL know that the intense attraction/lusty poetic, romantic "in love" feeling lasts at the most 6months till 2 years. this is a scientific fact .. there was an interesting article in NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC of all place (as opposed to Cosmo or National Enquirer.. lol) .. that proved how young couples (young meaning, relationship years not age of the people involved) ... have different chemical/physiological reactions in their body when interacting with lovers ... it is more passion, romance and sex oriented. when new lovers have sex or think romantically about their lover, it is a cocaine sorta high .. addictive after about 2+ years, a couple who survives the relationship, their physiology (i know i am spelling that wrong) .. changes drastically .. the chemical reactions they have when interacting with their lovers is more along the lines of emotional bonding, attachment (ie. less passion, romance and sex) ... when people have sex in this stage of a relationship, it arouses feelings (ie. we still find the person physically desireable) ... but not the crack cocaine sorta high that we felt early in the relationship ... try googling chemicals like oxytocin, seratonin and dopamine (i think i spelt them all wrong ...lol) and you'll know what i'm talking about ... try to look up national geographic articles on love (dunno if it is publicly available) the fact is, when people say that are not "in love with you anymore" ... they are just saying, I don't feel those lusty chemical reactions in my body anymore .. I need to find someone who can give me that cocaine fix i felt in the beginning of the relationship ... i have a feeling that the folks who complain about "not being in love anymore" ... will in fact find themselves in a situation like that over and over again ... my ex, she seems to be like that .. before me she had a bf for several years. intense and passionate beginning (just like our relationship when it started) and after a couple of years that relationship started dying .. and she told me she fell out of love with him. ok, great. only problem, the same pattern repeats 5 years later in her next LTR - and this time, i'm at the receiving end. LOL

hmmm. that statement really touched me. it is amazing how perfectly normal, bright, and decent people can turn into ... hmmm, their most pathetic, mean and rude selves at the end of a relationship. i bow down to you

Shika, I completely 101% agree with you. And it is a big problem. Sure our friends and family and even most of the wellwishers on forums like eNotAlone want to help us get over the pain by squarely putting the blame on the ex. The ex sucks, the ex is a * * * * * or a jerk. Nothing wrong with you ... The fact is, unless your ex had pathological or psychological "issues", the reason for the breakup is no one else BUT YOU!!! Notice how I say "ex" and not specify dumper or dumpee. I wanted to subtly make that point but I have to be explicit here since English is not my first language and I probably didn't get the point accross .. so let me explain. The reason the relationship ended is both the dumpers fault and the dumpees fault. Maybe fault is a harsh word. So if I try to rephrase that, the reason the relationship ended is because of both, dumper AND dumpee. Both parties *must* and *need* to take responsiblity. If the ex fell out of love with you, it was because of something you did or did not do. If the ex cheated on you, it is most likely because you did not meet the ex's needs in some way or the other (unless, like i mentioned above, the ex had pathological/psychological issues .. example sex-obsession/cheating .. haha) perhaps you just did not meet the ex's needs, or their values. in that case, still the fault (or responsiblity) is yours .. because either you could 1. compromise your values to meet theirs (unadvisable), since they are not going to compromise their values (otherwise it would not have been a problem, right?) ... or 2. realize that you two have a different out look on life and be happy to move on. (amicable breakup .. how many of these do we see?! hehe) The problem is that in a vast majority of the cases, we and our support group (friends/family) put the blame on the other person. Its easier that way, we do not have to look deep down at our own faults. and our support group thinks they are helping us get over it .... sure, we may find it easier to get over by calling the ex a devil's child, but the biggest mistake most of us are making is that we fail to look at ourselves ... what happens? guess what .. seriously .. its not rocket science ... we take those same issues into our new relationship. and again and again .. most of us dumpees here on eNotAlone end up wasting time trying to understand the "big mystery", to "get closure", to talk "one last time" and "understand the reasons" .. hello??? look, really look deep down at yourself ... and your relationship in retrospect. you will see the signs. you will see how your ACTIONS (or lack-of) created certain REACTIONS (physical reaction or emotional reaction) in the ex ... learn the lessons .. you cannot go trying to improve your ex, or fix them even if they are to blame (and even if they are a crazy psychotic person, they are no more than 50% responsible for the end of the relationship) ... but what you can do is learn about yourself and change yourself .... personally i have learned the most lessons not just about life but about MYSELF from my ex, from our relationship and from our breakup.

the silent treatment .. is definitely an abuse tactic and it is VERY painful. I think "abuse" is a strong word. I have learned from firsthand experience that silence is an extremely powerful tactic when it comes to interpersonal relationships. You need a LOT of self control and patience to use silence effectively ... Yes, silence could be manipulative ... but so is arguing, fighting, rationalizing, begging, pleading, emotional blackmail, being "nice" with ulterior motives and blowing your top ... things we ALL do in relationships. I'm assuming you are referring to silence in general, and not specifically NC .... The power of silence lies in the fact that we are all SO uncomfortable with silence. Silence is of great use when the two of you get caught up in arguments that could escalate into a potentially violent (physical or emotional) problem ... if you can have self control to refrain from blowing your top, and tactically use silence, then it will cause the other person to go on blabbering their "argument", or vomitting their point of views, how and why they think what they think by giving you more details of what is going on inside their heads. because they will be SO uncomfortable with silence, you'll hear things from deep down inside of them ... true motivations ... etc. you have to be careful though. the use of silence works best when the other person is expecting a response, or needs a response from you ... using silence too much can weaken the effect .. if you overuse it (or inappropriately use it) then the only thing your partner will think of you as avoiding the problem and giving them the "silent treatment" .. which is just like pouting and sitting in a corner. childish.

how does NC relate to dignity? NC is great, and a must-do ... but still way overrated. true healing (and real dignity) comes not from NC but from forgiving, forgetting, and moving on to the point where even when they are present in your life (having sex with someone else) you can still hold your head up high, smile, share some love and genuinely wish the best for them

hmmm what a mix of emotions i must say i forgot to include in my original list the overwhelming feeling i have these days. blackberry, dako .. thanks for reminding me. forgiveness ... as Sade would say, It's only Love that gets you through "You forgive those who have trespassed against you And you know tenderness comes from pain It's amazing how you love And love is kind and love can give And love needs no gain"

especially for guys who have been dumped ... i strongly recommend reading pickup and seduction books like: The Game Art of Seduction Way of the Superior Man Carlos Xuma, David DeAngelo eBooks (inner game stuff) most of them are entertaining and funny!! reading them made me stop thinking about the ex and start focusing on my next relationship/s ... not only that, you'll probably understand the real reasons why she left you or cheated on you ... regardless of what she "said" the reason for dumping you is ...

i'd like you to post 5 to 10 words (non explicitives .. hehe) that describe your feelings towards the ex from your last relationship ... and be sure to mention your sex and whether you are a dumpee or dumper (I doubt we have many dumpers here, but just in case we do ... please mention it) i'm a quickly reforming male dumpee .. hehe and these are my feelings towards her in no particular order: betrayal longing anger confusion hope jealousy denial vengeance (ouch!) bittersweet resignation

the icky thing is that i still have vivid dreams about the ex, not so much day dreams as i keep myself occupied with other potential romantic intersts ... but i do have dreams at night just last night i dreamt of the ex, her mom, me and my mom .. chatting in an airport lounge about my ex's dad .. who is a doctor .. seemed like a nice family conversation ... hmmm .. what's up with that? ex-dreams please go away...

weight loss .. personally it was great for me since i am about 15-20lbs overweight! i lost a good 10 lbs over 2/3 weeks when i was depressed over the breakup. i know my ex, who dumped me, lost some weight too ... i knew she was hurting too. not hurting as much as me, but i could see her poor physical and emotional state at the time. a few months later, i started putting on weight just as quickly as i lost it! that's when i realized i was starting to move on ... slowly but surely we all move on. hehehe, i need another break up soon !! lose those extra lbs...

i've heard of stories where ex's have gotten in touch after YEARS, even decades .. search the forum .. someone recently got in touch with an ex after 12 yrs .. amazing. this is probably off topic, but I think the internet actually makes it easier for ex's to get in touch after such a long time. In pre-internet days you'd probably have to hire a private-eye to find your ex if they moved away ... these days, a few clicks on google and you should be able to find your long lost ex ! i recently googled an ex from way back when i was a teenager (i'm 31 now) and found out she is a PhD and teaching (or doing research) in Canada no, i have no plans to contact her now ..

agree 101%

give it some time. in most circumstances, there is NO reason why you cannot be friends with an EX. but only after you are well and truly healed.

Lessons I’ve learned below. Just random thoughts on a Friday night. A lot of these have been mentioned before … most of these lessons require a lot of effort on my part and as I’m working to improve myself … here goes: • Choose your partner wisely. Hard to do? Try to have options while you are in the dating phase of any relationship … I would hesitate to commit until at least 6/9 months of a casual dating relationship. • Relationships require work to maintain harmony, respect and most of all attraction (not just physical attraction). Maintaining balance is the key, do not ever smother them, and never be so aloof as to create insecurity. Be very careful … in the start of my relationship, she wanted to *always* be together and would be upset when I wanted to go out with friends/family (insecurity). Two years later she started complaining that I don’t have a life apart from her (smothering) … I failed to maintain balance. • Self respect and self-interest must come first. Some of you said this in a different way: love yourself first and foremost. • Never make your partner the center of your life. This is HUGE. Have a life of your own. Many of you talk about this … • Most of you will disagree with me, but very occasionally be flirty with the opposite sex or subtly convey that other ladies or men are interested in you. A hint of jealousy will keep the passion strong. It basically creates a perception of your desirability… and people value things that others want. Basic psychology. NEVER CHEAT … you must build trust to get away with this • Never put yourself down. Self deprecation is a killer. I used to think its funny putting myself down, it’s just pitiful. Never put your love partner down either. Be the rock of support for your partner … sometimes even if they are wrong. Small doses of ego-boost are essential to keep them desiring you more. If you can’t handle the difference in values and/or can’t support them even when they are wrong, leave because you are not with the right person. • Constantly improve yourself. We say this is big for dumpees to regain self-esteem, but the fact is, this is big for *all* people. Period. And if you want to maintain attraction in a relationship this is mandatory. If you fail to grow (intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, economically, physically .. etc etc etc) while your partner grows in one or more of these areas then they will subconsciously know that they deserve better … “we grew apart” … personal growth may be in different directions – for example the guy might grow professionally, while the lady may grow intellectually … as long as both of them are bettering themselves, they will maintain a strong interest/attraction in each other. • Always maintain the balance of power *slightly* in your favor. This is manipulative, if you can’t do it, at the very least, never give up complete power in a relationship (if you don’t manipulate, they will .. because the fact is everyone manipulates; you are just denying it) … I’m not saying there should be a power struggle in relationships. I’m saying that one must have boundaries, have standards and stick to them. Do not allow the partner to cross boundaries without repercussions all the times. • Fight fair … control anger. If they don’t fight fair don’t go crazy - use silence until they come around. Silence is better than name calling, put downs, angry outbursts, and escalating into other areas … I can’t stress how powerful silence can be. Just tell them your rule – if they don’t fight fair, you are not going to talk to them at all… it will drive them nuts. Think NC .. why does NC usually get them calling you back?? Power of silence. Requires control on your part. Usually a few hours of silence will get them coming back to you to “talk about it” in a fair manner. Other argument tactics that kill “the loving feeling”: guilt tripping, blaming, judging and worse of all, escalating a simple argument into other unrelated areas (like family – yikes!) • Most decisions in life are based on feelings. When you argue or discuss issues trying to rationalize feelings, you just can’t win. Instead try to understand each others feelings … feel compassion, empathy … if her feelings are in contrast to your feelings, there is some deep issue that needs to be addressed but rationalizing or arguing logic is not going to help. I don’t know …. as of now this is TBD • Integrity builds trust. You must be a person of integrity because you can fool the world, not the one you are sharing your life with. Always say what you mean, you must build their complete trust in you. Trust = respect, and you can’t love anyone that you don’t respect. On the other hand, never completely believe anything they say. Never have 100% trust in them (or anyone except your mom!) … when judging your partner, actions speak louder than words … most of us say things we don’t mean and have emotional outbursts. So, always make your call based on their actions more than by their words. Try to read body language – often this conveys different meaning than words (fyi- I actually learned this from my ex, she could read my face like a book and she knew when I was bs’ing) • Don’t spend too much time on enotalone when you have broken up. You will find great advice, but also a lot of negativity will take you down. I started on this forum way back in Feb/March, got more and more depressed, and then just stopped coming. Now I’m mostly healed and no longer pinning for the ex; I’m on this site more as reflection and to learn about self-improvement with respect to relationships. other things that I read about elsewhere and would like to try in new relationships (not sure about this but would like to try it): * put in just a little less effort/energy into the relationship than they do. or make them do little things for you ie. subtly make them invest a little more into the relationship than you are. supposedly this keeps the balance in your favor. "the one who loves less controls the relationship" * use things like NLP (neuro-linguistic programming) to your advantage. once i started to read about what NLP is, i realized how i basically did many of the things described in NLP .. but to negative effects because i had no idea what i was doing .. ie. creating negative anchors .. lol most of my ideas for self-improvement are more manipulative than others posted here but i'm a big believer that every one of us wants our lives, relationships to go in the direction that we desire them to .. we all manipulate to some extent or the other ... manipulate is such a charged word, maybe i should use "suggest" or "guide" or "direct"...lol ... many of the dumpers have manipulated us with false promises, or mixed signals ... many dumpees manipulate by guilt tripping, begging, pleading, or worse... so, instead trying to control the situation using simplistic things that don't work for the most part (ie. begging/pleading) why not learn a little basic human psychology and communication skills to control the situation?

i know you can't "make" someone fall in love, but one of the ways to greatly increase the chances of someone who is already attracted to you into falling in love with you ... and staying in love with you is to constantly feed their ego ... positively reinforce their self-image … this is also called giving emotional support. The really successful long-term couples do this constantly … you know those couples that stick together, like a team they support each other even though one of them is obviously wrong?! I know this was a big area that I failed in … now I wonder if this was THE biggest reason she left me. Not only was I semi-jerkish in calling her BS all the times, bring her back down to earth when she would be flying high on false pretensions … but then I would do a complete 180 degrees … I'd become a wuss, say sorry a million times, apologize … tell her I didn't mean "it" even though it was obvious that I did because it was true. Now I can see so clearly how she lost respect for me … she obviously saw through my own BS … she even called me on it several times … said something along the lines of "if you think I am SO bad why do you want to be with me". It's like I was the worst of both: being a jerk, and then being a supplicating wuss. On many occasions. The big quandary is … do you stick to your values or do you support the one you love? Obviously it depends on the circumstances … after losing someone i loved so much, and looking at successful real-life LTRs, i would say that in most cases (not relationship dealbreaker cases) you should support the one you love because we all have our own faults and we'd like at least our "love" to be the one person in the world who would support us.

our lovers often see the clearest, brutally honest reflection of themselves in us ... and sometimes the reality is just so hard to fathom that they prefer to leave us than face it. just as love brings out the best in us, so it does the worst. i've been having some interesting thoughts today based on my personal experience and I'll try to elaborate what I feel may be just another "unspoken" reason (out of many possible reasons) that dumpers dump dumpees ... i feel this one is more likely in situations where the dumper has no good explaination for the breakup and refuse to want to talk about it or have "closure" .. hmmm we all think of ourselves as very special, unique .. and while we know we have certain faults, we all like to think of ourselves in a more positive light than not (this is true generally speaking but may not apply to low self esteem folks) .. in this PC western society, our friends, family and colleagues just reinforce this false notion that we are so much better than everyone else ... think of it, how many "friends" or family really call your bull * * * *? most superficial friends in today's worlds don't want to go there ... specially here in metropolitan USA, most friends are ... well ... fake. on the other hand, most of our casual friends, family are going to usually say nice things about us, boost our egos ... the ones that do call your BS, are the ones closest to you ... more often than not, your lover. your lover will bring forth all the faults in you ... like upholding a mirror to your face. i posted a message earlier on some thread saying that i believe I learnt the most lessons in life from past relationships, particularly my most recent EX. and she sure as hell learned a lot about herself too ... i know this because she talked to her friend about how much she learned about herself from being with me .. blah blah blah. i may be oversimplifying this but most people do not want to face their own faults. people want to avoid seeing themselves in a lesser light than they believe themselves to be, or want to avoid situations that reflect their own shortcomings … and so they leave. almost ashamed of themselves for being shown who they really are – ok the last sentence may be too drastic, but do you get my point? Of course, both me the dumpee and her the dumper will learn our lessons, hopefully improve ourselves and be better people for it. Depending on how glaring these shortcomings/faults are … it may be easier to let go of the painful relationship, fix own problems, and find new love … because staying in the relationship that reflected our own shortcomings is always going to be like the broken glass that was glued together …? Thoughts?

enotalon ... i haven't read the other replies just yet but all I can say is that once you've loved someone, there is always going to be a certain connection - physical and emotional. when the EX says they don't have feelings anymore, they mean they don't have strong enough feelings to be in a long-term relationship with you anymore ... it does not mean they are not attracted to you (although it may have dropped significantly) or that they don't care about you, or even miss you a little bit ... think about it ... unless it was an absolute disaster of a relationship (abusive) do you think even a dumper absolutely committed to ending the relationship, now suddenly HATES you? not unless you abused them (physical/emotional) .... once you meet an ex after months, years and if both of you are single (or not in a strong/committed love relationship with another person), there is a VERY good chance that one look, one loving caress, one kiss can reignite the passion ... but that does NOT mean the EX has changed their mind ... it most likely means that they are expressing the remnants of feelings that they still have towards you. what ends up happening after this kind of hookup based on the "passionate kiss" is ... is that unless the EX already had strong feelings about getting back together (before the kiss!) they are most likely going to feel regret at the situation ... so yes, the sparks will fly more times than not ... but in most cases that is all it will remain, just a spark with little fuel to get you home just my thoughts ....

i am not oversimplifying it ... but i feel you, like almost everyone on these forums, are just avoiding taking any responsibility ... if you stopped being who they fell in love with, why do you expect them to stay in love with you? OR if you put on some sort of act to impress them when you first started dating (we are all guilty of this - putting forth our best behavior) and they fall in love with this "act" of yours, once that act is over (aka, end of honeymoon period) and they got to know the *real* you ... they realized you aren't the type of person they could love ... that said, the only solution is to understand yourself, what your strengths/weaknesses are and what kind of person would best fit *you* ... and then, instead of putting on an *act* when you first start dating you should change yourself .. improve yourself .. then instead of being an "act" that gives false impressions you will have changed your lifestyle into a that which attracts and keeps love ... love is a game. don't kid yourself .. its easy for me to say that i read about all this in books, forums etc... but more than reading about the basic psychology of love ... look around at really successful long-term relationships ... they unconsciously followed the rules of the game and that's why they are still together.

isn't there a much older superdave on this forum?

its a very appropriate post and explains the feelings of i had being a dumper as best as i could describe myself (although currently a reformed dumpee, i'm a former dumper) the whole journal entry reeks of things NOT to do when being dumped. this guy changed from whatever he was when he attracted her, into something else ... i know this because i feel this happened to me over the past year or so ... i changed as a person, i became SO different from what i was that attracted her in the first place into a needy puppy .. i'm quoting from her journal "I want things to be the way they were when we were first together, but I know him better now - I realize I fell in love with what I had hoped our relationship would be. The man I fell in love with doesn't even exist. Now that I've gotten to know him really well, I realize that this relationship with him isn't what I need. I can never be happy with him. " "He was so desperate to keep us together. The sex was needy, desperate. Too much. Too much. " it could be a case of she fell in love with an illusion of what she wanted him to be, but more likely - he changed. we all do change and we change drastically when we are in a relationship ... it seems to be that if he did not change into the needy, sad and pathetic guy that she fell out of love with then she would not have fallen out of love! *duh* "Eight months have gone by. I have talked to him a few times, but it always ends the same way. He gets sad, and I feel guilty - which makes me sad and angry. I keep telling him that we can't be together again - but how can I look him in the face and tell him the truth: that there was nothing wrong with him - I just fell out of love with him?" LOL .. there was a LOT wrong with him... he kept holding on without understanding that his sad neediness and guilt-tripping her was only pushing her away more ... basic human behaviour .. cling too tight and the sand falls out faster it is not rocket science, its about attraction. you attract someone .. understand what it is about you that attracted them in the first place ... obviously this lady's loser boyfriend knew nothing of NC or more importantly he knew nothing of how his cliingy needy and being super nice behaviour was just making it worse ... sounds like me from a year ago i wonder if my EX wrote that post .. looooooooooool

NC is good, but more important than NC is fixing yourself .. getting your act together ... people on this forum seem stress on NC way too much, but all the NC in the world will not help unless you can look at yourself and understand why you find yourself in the "dumped" situation today. the fact is that YES ... you contributed to being where you are today MORE than your ex did by dumping you. until a few years ago, if someone asked me who or what taught me the biggest lessons in life, i would have mentioned some relative or a close teacher i had but today, I can say that the person who has taught me the most in my life is my EX. it is damn easy to point a finger at the ex and say "ex you are f-ed up and the cause of all my problems, my lonliness, my misery". that, for most of us, is just not true. unless the EX has mental issues, there must have been something (or many things) about YOU that put you in the situation you are in today. it could be something as simple as basic compatiblity issues which are easy to overlook in the honeymoon phase of a relationship, but rear their ugly head later on .. in such a case the breakup really is no one's fault. your ex just had the balls to take action and break up now rather than suffer a long and not-so-happy relationship. get over it, because I can bet a 100% as much as you hate your EX, they probably hurt as much as you did ... another reason could be loss of attraction (not talking physical attraction here) or the feeling of losing that "in-love" feeling... in this case it clearly is YOUR problem ... something about you caused them to lose feelings for you. this is something most of us here seem to deny .. we want to blame the EX for breaking promises, for cheating on us ... but that is just running away from the real issue ... regardless of the reason for breakup, the point is NC is a great tool but it is not the only thing that is going to help you. the NUMBER ONE thing is understanding yourself .. this could be a reality-check to understand what compatibility issues caused the EX to break up (see above) ... or it could be learning about faults that may have that contributed to the sitution you are in today ... relationships are like a video game .. the more you play, the more you learn and the more you learn the better you will be in the future .. and this includes better at CHOOSING the right person to be in a relationship with. and since this is essentially a reconciliation thread .... don't kid yourself folks ... there is NO "getting back with the ex". there is no "winning the ex back", no "reconciliation" either .... nothing of the sort. the ONLY thing that *may* work is both of you falling in love with each other once again from a FRESH start and that is NOT going to happen unless you change from being whatever characteristics you are today being the "dumpee" to the traits that attracted your EX to you in the first place ... (or even better) ... i don't mean to say that you should not address the past issues if you do reconnect at some point in the future ... but just "talking about it" ain't gonna work ... i'm still a big fan of GFTOW that i posted about on some other thread, not to be taken literally, but by the time you've had several other casual dating relationships, you'll not even remember what the EX looked like casual dating relationships is the keyword, you are not ready for a relationship until you go to bed at night without thinking of the EX .. hehehe

ok great. i give it 5 starts already

"getting back together" section has the most number of posts on enotalone!!! almost 67000 posts in this section geez ... i looked under "relationships" and "sex" and "dating" and "personal growth" .. etc etc .. after a casual glance, i think the "sex and romance" subsection of "sex" is the next most active with 52000 posts I just realized this because I wanted to find the most active section for my new post about "detecting a liar" ... i'm still trying to figure out a good section to post that in ..

If anyone cares ... I did not mean GFTOW in the literal sense rather, the key to truly getting over a failed relationship and moving on is having other promising options and those options are only going to come to you if you go out there and actively seek it. Yes, after my LTR, I needed some help getting back into the "game" .. I read a lot of pop-psychology books from link removed and also a lot of info from the so-called seduction "gurus" .. mostly other forums like fastseduction and mystery forums etc ... all this while I was in my self-imposed NC/LC mode and to be honest, I was not feeling better. I don't think NC helped me *truly* heal. I mean if she called to wish me happy birthday, did I really want to avoid her call and pretend I now hate her so much that I don't even want her good wishes? No ... that's when I really reevaluated the NC thing. Once I started to GFTOW (again, not literally speaking) I started to feel better about myself and about my life ... i've tried to say this before, GFTOW does not mean you go F 10 other women .. what it means is you actively regain control of your romantic/love life ... now I can smile a genuine smile if I see my ex .. even if she is with her new beau ... that to me is more important than the so-called self-esteem/self-respect that many people here claim that NC helps them regain ... One of the most important things I learned about myself was how I changed from a self-confident, attractive, and fun to be with guy, into a supplicating puppy dog .. during the course of our relationship ... while I don't endorse most of the seduction techniques (such as canned routines, openers etc) I do feel that certain aspects of seduction (psychological, NLP, etc) can help "lead" romantic relationships in the way desired by you ... ... manipulative? sure ... but I'm sure most of us here have a secret desire to be in the driver's seat in our next romantic relationships ... do we not? and unless you are a blatantly evil person who is going to use outright lies and deception, I see no wrong in using the subtle psychological "games" in manipulating, or should I say "gently nudging" our romantic interest in the direction that we want them to go ...