kitten

Sounds like a rough time. In honesty, I think the best thing you can do is cut off communication with her for the time being. You'll hear this advice again and again, so let me be the first to provide it. It sounds cold, perhaps callous, and definitely not what you want to hear, but trust me, and the others here -- there is a reason for it. Rather, there are several reasons. The first and obvious is that it forces her to wonder about you. Right now you're the one wandering in the dark; let her see what it's like to not know what's going on. But beyond that petty pleasure, the truth is, it also forces her to consider what she's doing and why. You see, if you're constantly in touch with her, she has no reason to think about you other than those brief times when you are actually, at that moment, speaking to her. On the other hand, if you stop speaking to her, eventually her thoughts will turn to you, and the situation. Another reason is because if things don't work out (and we hope they do, but it's the old hope-for-best, prepare-for-worst type thing), you'll only be prolonging your own healing. Third, emotional times are not good times for communication. Thoughts are roiling about in your head all day and night, I know, and you'd love to share with her what's on your mind, but what seems like a good idea to say probably isn't, no matter how much thought you've put into it. Perhaps most of all, though, is that she is the one who initiated this. thereforeeee she is sending you a message: I want to be apart from you, at least right now. Clearly, you want this to get fixed, but what you see as reaching out, she sees as annoying. When she's ready, she'll seek you out, and she will talk to you. If you pester her before that happens, you're pushing her away. Please think about it. Thet 27th is not that far away, and I think you can do this. No calls, no texts, no email, no IM, nothing. If she does call, keep things as absolutely brief as possible and don't get into any kind of heavy discussion about the situation. Be light, be civil, but don't let her control the entire situation the way she is now -- it isn't helping you at all. (If she does comment on how you're never available these days, just apologize and explain that you've been busy. Let her think about that.) BEst of luck, and keep us posted.

No, but it's going to take some serious discussion between the two of you. Even if you've been nothing but a gentleman the whole time you've known her, she's going to remember the one incident where you looked like a psychopath. No matter how things end up, you should apologize, sincerely, for that and any other things you might have done that looked like you were out of control, but always remember that actions speak louder than words. Let your actions prove to her that you're in control of yourself, even when you're upset.

Uhm. Calm down and tell us what happened, and be a little more specific. This is a great place to get support or just a listening ear, but we can't do much unless you're clear.

Tim, you asked me to take a look at this for editing purposes, and I have, but as I read it, I felt I should respond. It's good that you recognize that you're being controlling, because in some ways it sounds like you are. You've identified at least part of the problem, but fixing it is going to require help from her. See, if you think "Hey, I can be less controlling," you might give it an honest and sincere try, but you might be focussing on the wrong things. What you should do is sit down and talk to her -- in calm, measured tones -- and tell her this yourself. Tell her that you've come to understand that you are being a bit overbearing and controlling at times, and you want to work on this, but you need her to help. She can help by, first of all, telling you whether that's really the problem at all. If it is, she can give you specific examples of things that have bothered her, and you might find that the things that stuck out in your mind aren't what stick in hers. Knowing that will help you. I also have to tell you -- and I don't mean to sound like a jerk -- it seems as though you may have some anger management issues. I know, I know, that's cliche. But look at it this way. We all get upset, hurt, and angry, and as a guy, I understand that *nothing* gets us as hurt and angry as when things aren't working out with women. But there are better ways to deal with this, Tim, than throwing phones at the wall and dumping her clothes on the floor -- especially before you'd even had the chance to talk to her about it. I'd like you to consider this for your own sake. I'm just one guy with one opinion but this is what we're here for, isn't it? Please consider that communication is better, always, always. Here's an example. She came home, what, almost a full day after you were expecting her. You're furious. It's understandable. You're confused and hurt by her actions, and angry that she would do this. Again, understandable. What she did was obnoxious and thoughtless. But instead of yelling at her, and driving yourself crazy and throwing things and whatever else.. you should have talked to her. No, it wouldn't be easy. It never is. But you can do it. When she came home, take her into the living room, sit on the couch, and tell her what you're feeling. Do it in a way that isn't accusatory -- focus on your feelings, not her actions. Things like "I thought we were going to spend today together, and you've been out all night and day and I haven't been able to get in touch with you. I've been worried sick and confused. Is there something wrong? Can you tell me what happened?" Then shut up and let her talk. This is going to sound stupid, but I'm reminded of an old show called Saved by the Bell. (Anyone remember it?) It was a trite, ridiculous half-hour teen sitcom in the 80s, but those of us who were children of the 80s remember every episode. And one I remember is when Zack (the lead guy) got in a fight with Kelly (the lead girl), because Kelly's old flame came back into town for a weekend and she wanted to see him. Zack reacted the same way you did, forbidding her to go, but we all know you can't tell a woman what to do like that. She's going to do what she wants. At the end of the show Zack finally realizes that what he should have said was something like, "Your old boyfriend? I think it's great that you're still friends after all this time. Of course you should go. And when you get back, I have a special evening planned for us, too." Trite, like I said. Saccarine beyond the pale. But, you know what? It worked. And it would have worked for you. You'd look like the understanding guy who didn't mind if she had friends other than you, and thoughtful for wanting to take her out afterwards. Of course, you wouldn't have to do exactly like Zack did. It was a very silly TV show, and let us not model ourselves after such things. But the point is that you can't control someone else, unless we're talking about BDSM relationships here. They can and will want to rebel. You tell her she "can't" go, so of course she's going to. You *make* her promise to be home by a certain time, so of course she's going to do what she damn well pleases anyway. That having been said, it is really not cool that she did this in the first place. Going out with a friend, fine. Breaking plans with you to do it, not fine. Staying out all night and into the next day, not fine. And when you factor all that in with her calling in sick to work so she can spend time with.. who, exactly? And doing what? ..well, then we have a real problem, don't we? The two of you need to communicate, and together establish that if this is going to work, you both have things you need to remember and work on. You need to stop giving orders, or making her promise to do things she wont' do anyway, etc. And she needs to remember that you take priority, and to be more considerate of your relationship, not just do what she wants and expect zero fallout. You've got to decide what you want. If staying together is a viable option at this point, learn how to communicate your feelings, not act upon them and throw things. If you're pissed off, even if you have a right to be, then call a buddy and gripe at him, or go to the gym, or beat the snot out of a tree with a shovel, or, heck, come to this site and tell us all about it. Grab a video game and focus your anger on blowing things up. But don't lash out at her, or break things. Talk. And if staying together isn't a realistic option, then talk to her about that too. Calmly, and again, with measured tones. I say that to keep the anger out of your voice, or any other emotion you might be feeling. Tell her why you've come to this conclusion, and together figure out how to wrap up the loose ends, like any shared property, your son, and so on. Your son is the most important part of this and she will understand that -- anything the two of you do needs to impact him as little as possible. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that, but I wanted to throw that in there. I've rambled long enough. Keep us updated on how things are going, and come back to the site often. Sometimes, just writing about what you're feeling can help (I should know, being the king of novel-length posts around here), and sometimes it can even help to read about other people's problems and pitch in a bit of advice or understanding when you can.

If that's the only reason the two of you broke up, I think that's good news. Really. It's something small that you can both take very simple steps towards dealing with. But, if you get back together with him, you both need to have a discussion, and make it clear -- this is what went wrong last time, and here's how we're going to deal with it. My advice would be to lay down some "ground rules", and make sure you're both comfortable with them before moving forward. I'd make the rules like this. You should agree to try your best to nag less, but he needs to understand that sometimes, you'll do it without even realising it. Give him permission to (gently, kindly, and without annoyance) remind you if he sees that you're hassling him about something, and for your part, don't get upset with him if he does so. You need to be confident that you can both try to nag less, and accept his telling you if you are without getting upset. He needs to understand that you don't do it on purpose, and he can't get so annoyed or upset when you do. He needs to promise that he will be comfortable with either letting it pass, or gently telling you that what you're doing is bothering him. And he needs to deal with the fact that sometimes you're going to slip, and it's not appropriate to gripe about it every single time, OR harbor private annoyance about it which will build. He needs to really be able to comfortably let it pass sometimes. I say give it a shot, but have this discussion with him first, and tell him that he should go home and really think about it before deciding if he can do this or not. It would be a shame to get over-eager, get back together and say you can both handle it, and then break up again because neither one of you really considered the past mistakes and learning from them.

Sounds like he's not giving you the time you need to get there, and to make it worse, it sounds like he's pressuring you. Whether he's saying it harshly or not, telling you to "hurry up" makes you feel like there's a race, and probably drains some of the mood. You can't hurry something like that.. it builds as it builds and he needs to accept that, and keep going until you're there. I suspect that, if he can deal with "getting tired" and just keep going, you'll get there, and after a few times, you'll feel less pressured about it, and it'll come easier.

You popped into my thread, I'll pop into yours. When things ended with the last girl (not the one I'm currently mourning), I was foolish. It's a long story, but I had what seemed like airtight evidence that she was seeing someone behind my back, I went over there to talk to her, and she was there with another guy, sleeping on the couch. I lost it, barged in, grabbed a book I'd loaned her, smacked her feet with it to wake her up, and said something obnoxious. I forget what, honestly -- I didn't swear at her or go into a yelling rage, but I do remember it was something stupid to say. Then I left. On my way I wrote some equally obnoxious, self-righteous note and put it inside her car (which was unlocked for some reason). Something to the effect of "I asked you for ONE THING, honesty, and you couldn't do that for me! Blah blah blah." I then went home, talked to my friend online about what had happened and how she'd been cheating on me and blah blah, and emailed her the conversation. The next day, do you think she wanted anything to do with me? I looked like a psychotic nutcase who barged into her house, broke into her car, and was now telling all his friends what a horrible person she was. After a few days of back-and-forth on IM, and a little bit of posting on this site, I went for strict NC. It was tough. Not as tough, I think, as it is right now for me.. but bad enough. I'd see her get online and it was all I could do not to try to talk to her. One evening, when I came home, maybe about a week after I'd resolved not to contact her until she contacted me, there she was online, and began talking to me. Not about much, really. Just idle chitchat. Neither of us mentioned what happened, and it's probably best that we didn't. For the next couple of weeks, I maintained my policy of "Do not talk to her unless she talks to you first." And it worked. She'd IM me and we'd talk. Sometimes it was a bit strained, and it was never how it was before, but it was something. That was a year and a half ago, almost to the day. Today she's one of my best friends. Her cat is currently sitting on my monitor -- recently she moved to an apartment where she couldn't take the cat, and I offered to take care of her until her lease ran out or she figured out what to do with her, since I knew how much this cat meant to her. And, she's been very patient in listening to me cry and whine the past couple of weeks, especially the past few days, over this girl. I never formally apologized for barging in and causing a scene, but after a while, I did mention why I did it, and where I was coming from (I had a pretty good reason for it, and I think she understood). I was able to formally apologize for some other things I did, though. Little, stupid things, but they bothered me nonetheless, and being able to say "I was wrong for this, and I'm sorry, months later" was okay for both of us. My point is that even if you blew your stack and said something obnoxious to her, things can be salvaged. If you really want a friendship with her, I say give her another week or so, and do not contact her. At all. If you don't hear from her after seven more days, it might -- might! -- be a nice gesture to give her a call and keep it short: "I wanted to apologize for the message I sent last week. It was insensitive and I was angry, but I shouldn't have done it, and I really shouldn't have told you never to contact me again. I'm sorry I hurt you. I just wanted you to know that." *Period.* Let her talk after that. Maybe she won't want to, but you've said it, and it will make you look like less of a jerk when she does start thinking of you later. But I'm betting she'll yell at you for a moment and then cool off. Maybe then you'll get the chance to tell her what you'd like in the future. Tell her it's okay if she doesn't want anything to do with you right now, but you hope that she'll call you when she's ready. If she doesn't answer the phone, don't hang up. Leave it as a message or voicemail. And again, keep it short. Apologize, and tell her that's the only reason you called, and then hang up. NC is one of the hardest things in the world to do. I know of what I speak, of course, since I'm dealing with my own situation and I'm not even quite ready for NC, but I'm trying to get one last thing done before I do it. There are days when you manage, and there are days when you think you're going to implode if you don't call her. Do what I do. Yeah, I'm not exactly the paragon of emotional stability right now, but even someone as unbalanced as me can sort of make this work (I think, I hope, one day at a time...). If I want to call her, I do one of the following: 1. Come here and write another one of my becoming-legendary three-page posts. Writing about it helps, and knowing that other people are reading it helps. 2. Call a friend. ANY friend who will listen. Even if you're not sure if they will, it's okay to ask. On Monday, I swear, I was about to go insane (chronicled for your commiseration in my thread), and I was *this close* to calling her, had my finger on the Send button. But instead I called an old ex of mine, and asked her point blank: Do you have a minute? I'm really upset and I don't know who I can talk to. She was okay with it, and let me go on for almost two hours. When it was over, I still felt miserable, but the powerful urge to call the current girl was gone. Sometimes that's what it takes. Personally, if I know I'm going to cry (or am crying), I find it easier to call a female friend. They're more willing to listen to it, and you don't feel like a complete * * * * * * * for crying in front of a guy. You know, cause that just isn't manly, or something. But even I have a guy friend who I could call, and have called, to agonize about the situation. As long as I'm in a mood where I know I'm not gonna start sobbing. My point is, you can call them, and it's okay. If it's late at night and you don't want to wake anyone up, get on this site, and write about it. Or read other people's problems and offer a listening ear. You can also call family. It feels kind of silly, but I know my mother won't judge me if I called her up crying about this. In fact, at least for me, I'm not entirely comfortable telling her everything, so when I'm explaining what's going on to her, I'm very much forced to consider my words and give only the important details. That can help with perspective and let you pare the situation down to the essentials. Good luck, and remember -- we all know NC isn't easy. Looking at the clock a dozen times an hour, trying to set idiotic and arbitrary timeframes -- "If she's gonna call she's probably gonna call at 6," and then waiting and being disappointed as 6 comes and goes. It can take everything out of you to refrain, but you gotta try. If I get the chance to have the One Last Goodbye talk with my girl (ugh.. "my" girl indeed), then of course we'll see how good I am at following my own advice. But, y'know. This site is open 24 hours a day. Use it.

Not knowing, and being stuck in that sort of limbo of hope, is, in a way, just as bad as being rejected. At least when you're told how things are, straight out, you can move on. But she can't do that because she's holding out hope. It may seem mean, but I really think you should let her know what your intentions are, even if your intentions are "I don't want anything to do with you." Put it nicely, but be firm. Don't leave her hanging.

It's "part of the game", yes, that not every single person you randomly flirt with will really be worth pursuing. But some of them will be. You're probably not really leading them on, though I suppose it depends on the level of flirtation and what you're telling them to expect. That is to say, if you're just chatting and having a good time, and you get a number, the odds are she's not waiting by the phone for the rest of the week. She's going about her business and perhaps wondering if you'll call, but that's it. On the other hand, what's really holding you back? A date doesn't commit you to anything except a bit of cash out of your pocket. If you're even remotely interested in the girl, really, why not wait a day or two, give her a call, introduce yourself again, mention that you had fun at (the bar, the club, whatever) and would like to get a drink with her sometime. She'll probably say yes (else she wouldn't have given her number to you in the first place), and the worst that can happen is you decide you're not really interested, you have a decent evening and that's that. And just possibly, you'll find out she's really something special, and want to see her again. There's no reason to "hold out". For what? A better looking girl? Okay, but you're asking for a date, not her hand in marriage. A girl with a better personality? A date will help you figure out if she's compatible with you far better than a few minutes of half-drunk flirting at a bar. C'mon. Give her a call, keep it short and to the point. Set something up for Friday or Saturday. Worst that can happen is you're out forty or fifty dollars and you'll have had a nice evening with a woman. And the best, well.. who knows where it could lead. Make us proud, man.

Yeah, it was kind of dumb for me to call right back in the middle of the night, but, y'know. Anyway, she called again today while I was at work. In my building you get horrible cell reception, so I could barely hear her, and anyway work was not the time or place, so I told her I'm out around 7, so if she wants to call me then, she can. She said fine. It's 10pm and I haven't heard from her. Logically, based on her call last night and today, I realize that probably means she's *actually* busy at work or rehearsal or something, but the paranoid side of me thinks other things.

Oh, and PS -- the money thing wasn't an issue. I only brought it up because, though we did spend time together during my little "I'm broke" period, I thought maybe the constant "let's stay in" thing was annoying her. It was just a thought, but obviously I know better now.

Well, I called today for that express purpose, no answer. Finally got to the point where I realized something had to be up. So I went by her house after work. She wasn't expecting me. She answers the door, I ask if we can talk, and ask if she's been avoiding me. This leads into Discussion. I was, to my surprise, pretty calm and level about it. I explained that I've noticed some things that seem like red flags to me, and I want to know if I'm getting the right impression or if I'm just way off base, or what. I didn't go into a long litany of "you used to do this and that", I just mentioned that she's been distant and hard to get a hold of lately, and it worried me. Her reply, in a nutshell, was that she didn't think she could continue "this" (the relationship), because she had no time for us. With work, and two rehearsals, and school about to start. I replied that I understood her being busy, but it doesn't change my feelings, and she shouldn't make a decision like that because she thinks I need attention -- if she's not into me anymore, that's another thing, but she assured me it wasn't. You all know how these things go. Sitting around for about an hour being all quiet and repeating the same things. She was clearly confused, kept repeating "I don't know what to do, I don't know how to deal with it, I'm overwhelmed with everything." I didn't try to rationalize with her too much (okay, a little), but instead told her, she needs to sort these things out for herself. If she loves me still, then things can work if she wants them to. Finally I got up and said, well, I guess I know what I came here to find out. Made motions towards the door, with her dragging on my arm and hugging me and asking if it was okay to do that, and if it was okay to call me, and even tried to kiss me at one point. I told her, if she calls, I'll answer, but I won't call her. It ended with her promising to call, and asking if we could "get together" after the holidays (presumably for drinks and talk). When I got home at 3am there was a message on my machine (I'd specifically told her that my cell battery was dead), a pretty interesting one. About 30 seconds of her asking me to please pick up, then some apologizing for panicking and screwing up, and would I please pick up, etc. It ended with her saying "I screwed up" and hanging up. Somewhat foolishly (?) I called back, just to say I wasn't blowing her off when I didn't answer the phone, that I really wasn't there. She answered, but she was so asleep I doubt she has any idea that we talked. She did mumble that she had work at 6am and I should come in sometime, but that was about the only coherent thing she could manage. (I get the same way when I answre the phone while dead asleep.) Anyway. Thoughts?

It's true, it's true. In the beginning, I was always at work, and wasn't sure how interested she really was anyway, so I generally kept my distance and let her come to me. When we talked, I'd chat briefly, and usually end it with "let's get a drink / dinner / whatever tonight". I guess, as time went on and I got more comfortable with her, I've felt more at liberty to be on a daily-phone-call schedule, and got used to that, and now that it's gone, I miss it. I may have changed my mood. It's hard to say from a subjective viewpoint, you know? I don't know if I've "reached out" to her trying to fix it -- I've *tried* to act like everything was fine, but I'm betting it didn't come off that way. To be fair here, her job can be anywhere from 5am to midnight, depending on the day and stuff, and her living situation precludes her from being able to just come by and spend the night whenever she wants. And I can understand coming home late from work and having to be there again the next morning, and just wanting to crash. On the other hand, when this would happen before, she'd usually at least call me, even if it was just her saying she's on her way home from work and here's how her day went, or whatever. That seems perfectly reasonable. But when emotions come into play, I can get stupid. I want to talk to her, so I call again. I thought I mentioned before, but basically, she'd, you know, like I said, call me a lot, even if she couldn't go out, just to say hi, or I'm thinking of you, or ask me to come down to wherever she was hanging with her friends and meet them. When we were out she'd come sit on the same side of the booth as me, or make me sit on her side. She'd fawn over me, hold me, hold my hand, tell me how great things have been since I was there. Again, to be fair, I've been doing that stuff since we met. Not all the time, just once or twice a month. And since she didn't acknowledge the last one, two or three weeks ago, I've stopped. Though I've wanted to do it again, I've managed to restrain myself. On November 15, I lost my job, which made me pretty broke for a while. Today (!) I started a new job, and in the interim period I was doing a bunch of freelance work to make money, but there was a period of a couple weeks where I just couldn't afford to take her out much. I felt bad about it, and she assured me it wasn't a big deal, but who knows? I don't think the money thing was the issue, but never being able to *do* anything could have been. But, she knows I had cash coming in from the freelance stuff, and she knows I now have a new job. If it was boring for a couple of weeks, my fault, but that was also about the time she started her new job and rehearsals which ate her time. Bad confluence, I guess. I should have kissed her, yeah. Instead when I got there I hugged her and told her I'd missed her. That was when she made the whole 'sorry for being scarce lately' apology. I do like your suggestions of how to deal with her when she makes such apologies, though, using it as an entrance to make concrete plans. She was at work that night, but by 1am I still hadn't heard from her, and it was bothering me. I called, hoping to get a chance to see her, and left that on her voicemail instead. Anyway, I wasn't really planning on writing her a long-winded letter, it was just a thought of the 'what to do now' variety. Talking to her is something I'd really planned on, because I'm the sort that thinks communication is key. Now, part of me still wants to do that, but part of me also recognizes the sense in what you say -- that it would bore her, upset her, or both. So there's all that. And now, I'm home from my first day on this new job. Should I a) call her once and attempt to get her to go out (or make plans to do so in the near future) to "celebrate"? or b) wait for her to call -- she knows I have a new job, and shouldn't she want to find out how the first day went?

I don't want to sound like a jerk here, but this sounds like a pretty typical pattern. A woman grows up with an abusive father, and she ends up dating abusive men. The signs are there. Any relationship involves give-and-take, but from what you're saying, this guy has all the makings of an abuser-in-the-making. Someone who cares about you should want you to improve yourself, and he's telling you not to go to college? And dictating what you can and cannot wear, who to hang out with, and constantly levelling accusations of infidelity at you? Telling you that you can't go out with your friends and expecting you to stop everything you enjoy? No one deserves that. Don't stay with him just because you're scared to be without him. If he really controls you to the degree you've described, this guy is not someone who cares about you. Like others have said, I'm not saying you should break up with him. But you do need to seriously consider what the past two years with him have been like, and consider it *honestly* -- don't make excuses for him in your head.

Oh, that's already something I knew -- that's just what I was trying to avoid. I definitely don't want to sound demanding, like she has to do this or that. But at the same time, I guess I want to tell her all those little things she used to do and how I miss them. You know, that's an interesting point. Looking back, I think I've sounded pretty dejected when I've spoken on the phone to her the past few days. It's tough keeping emotion out of your voice. And, I have to admit that the past couple of times we've seen each other, there's been that part of me that was watching for signs, or wondering what she was thinking, looking for any kind of clue. Maybe that 'is this going to work?' mental mode is carrying over into my actions somehow. The childish reaction here is 'but I didn't start it', that is to say, I may have been acting a bit differently because I was all worried about things, whereas if things were fine I'd continue acting fine. But, maybe the truth is that it was a cycle -- I read too much into things at first, got worried, acted different, she picked up on that, acted differently herself, I took that as a bad sign.. etc. Still, the only way I'll know is to talk to her. I still think being direct, as you said, is the way to go. But in addition to my whole dilemma of how to say these things, I also have a problem figuring out which parts to leave in, and which parts to omit. I was fully prepared to bring up the phone call issue -- not in an accusatory way, but just to mention that it always brightened my day when she'd call at random and tell me sweet things, and she doesn't anymore. I guess what I'm saying is, I have trouble deciding how much to say, and which parts are best left unsaid. For example, if I'm telling her that I feel sort of neglected, or like she doesn't care, she'll want to know why, or what she did to make me feel that way. And then what? Do I sit there and list a bunch of things she used to do that were sweet and affectionate? That seems.. dumb, somehow. But if I don't tell her, she won't know what my problem is other than a vague complaint about 'feeling distant'. Thanks for the response. I hope to hear from others about this, too. And one more thing, to the guy who mentioned bbcode vs HTML -- I was using standard quotes. I have no idea why they were interpreted that way. But that's really not at the top of my list of things to be concerned about right now anyway.