Are these orange flags?

[jazz_lover]

I've had a few dates with this girl.

She's quite affectionate. First date was coffee and within an hour we were already holding hands and after coffee I suggested we went for some drinks so we ended up spending five hours together and we kissed at the end of the date. Second date we went to a jazz club and she took my hand and held it the entire show only breaking to clap between songs and cosied up to me and then after the jazz we went to a late night cafe and she stayed with me talking until she was barely managing to keep her eyes open. When we got up to go I gave her a kiss and she kissed me back passionately with tongue! 

But there are a few things that give me a bit of pause for thought

The first is that we've been on a few dates now and she hasn't once offered to split the bill or pay for a round of drinks.  The jazz was quite pricey so it would have been a nice gesture if she had offered to pay for the drinks we had at the jazz club or at least offered to split the drinks bill or even offered to pay for the mint tea we had afterwards.  

The second is she never asks me any personal questions. The only one I recall was at some point on the first date she asked me what I was looking for. So we talked a bit about that and found out we were on the same page and she said she wanted to settle down within the next five years. Conversation flows smoothly with us and we spent hours talking on the first date and after the jazz we sat for a few hours at the cafe talking and I have told her various things about myself in conversation but I feel I know much more about her than she knows about me.

The third is that she is pretty uncommunicative between dates.  Our first date was Saturday and afterwards I said I had a lovely evening with her and she replied"Me too". Then Monday I texted her wishing her luck with her busy work week (she'd mentioned she had a presentation) and she didn't reply until midnight again with a one/two word answer. I figured she wasn't much of a texter so waited a few more days and asked her out to the jazz and she accepted and heard nothing from her until the day of the jazz when she asked what time we were meeting. After the jazz she texted me to say she got home safe (I asked her to do so) and I said "I'm glad and when she finds the time would be great if she could send me a few of the videos of the jazz so I could show my mum as I was visiting her today for mothers day (she'd recorded a few videos of the jazz) and mid afternoon still nothing from her.

 

Maybe I am overthinking and there is nothing to worry about and this is just her style and she will be a bit more communicative in future and maybe offer to contribute a bit more on dates and try to find out more about me.   But should I be concerned? I do not want to be with someone who just wants to be entertained and has no real interest in me and is stroking me with a bit of affection here and there to keep me keen which is how one of my female friends is interpreting this  

 

 

[Wiseman2]

Try to slow down. She seems to like you. Try to pick less expensive dates. 

[Kwothe28]

3 minutes ago, jazz_lover said:

I do not want to be with someone who just wants to be entertained and has no real interest in me and is stroking me with a bit of affection here and there to keep me keen which is how one of my female friends is interpreting this  

Well, your friend could be "on the money" there. She knows how to "keep you there" with giving you just enough affection when you go out. But other then that she doesnt express much interest in getting to know you or to even respond to you. For example somebody else would be glad that you remembered to wish her a nice week. Or even offered to at least pay for something since you paid for tickets and even drinks. But she probably thinks you should pay for everything because she agreed to a date. 

If you dont want to be an "entertainer" then dont be. This looks like a lot of other examples of women you talked about here. Which again tells a lot about your "picker".

[Batya33]

Here is what I think.  First I get it/get you.  Second, it's a little soon to pull the plug and as you said its potentially a yellow not red flag.  Third -time maybe to switch things up.  For the next date first see if she suggests an activity.  If not suggest something that is very inexpensive -no, not coming to your place for a movie. 😉  Like -weather depending - hike plus picnic, maybe an inexpensive museum, is there a local walking tour or like a stretch of art galleries -something that is conducive to spending time together like that but where you can confirm she's not sugar daddy seeking.  

Second on the not asking questions -hold off and see a bit longer.  Example.  Many years ago I met a guy at a party.  He asked me out.  On the first or second date he shared that actually he'd been laid off/fired from his current position which was at a very prestigious company (and -for his age/stage-he had a prestigious role).  In my head - seeing that it was date 1 or 2 -I didn't want to pry into how he was feeling personally.  I believe we discussed about his prospects potential interviews etc but surface stuff.

At the end of that date he expressed to me with frustration that I hadn't asked him about how he was doing with being laid off.  From his perspective it was me not caring about him/his life. From mine it was about being appropriate and polite with someone I was just getting to know (and to add I don't even think we'd kissed yet!).  So - maybe hold off? (Also i like the dates you planned - jazz is so awesome).

[Lambert]

Agree with the others... a little too soon to say what her intentions are.  And the suggestions of try some less expensive dates-- meet for a walk, a bike ride, drive and stop for ice cream.  

I am also guilty of not asking too many questions or offering too many words of wisdom or opinions to a new acquaintance.  It's not that I don't care what the other person is going through, but I am trying to respect their space and to also be a good listener.  Even with people I know well. I try to listen more and let the other person talk-- because not enough people do this.  Obviously, because now you're questioning her interest.  Does she listen when you talk?

Maybe she is incommunicative in between dates because she is letting you take the lead, not to be too clingy or needy.  Sounds like she gives you plenty of attention in person.

Do you like her?  If yes, give it a few more dates and see.  I do agree it would be nice after a few dates, she should offer to buy a round or something as a gesture. 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, jazz_lover said:

I do not want to be with someone who just wants to be entertained and has no real interest in me and is stroking me with a bit of affection here and there to keep me keen which is how one of my female friends is interpreting this.

It's doubtful she is only being affectionate for  jazz clubs and drinks. The best way to prevent that is planning better dates.  The drinking and music doesn't lend itself to conversation.

[boltnrun]

I'm with her regarding texting.  Texting is for confirming date and time and for things like "I'm here, seated to the left of the entrance".  Not every day or all day every day inane messages.

As for not offering to pay, if that's important to you then maybe you're going to have to say so.  Suggest a "Dutch treat" where you two split the bill.  If she objects then maybe she's not the right woman for you.  BTW, when I wanted to go out but it was to be a split bill I would explicitly say "Want to go to happy hour on Thursday, Dutch treat?"

Side note, do you want her to actually pay or just to offer?

[Batya33]

I would never do the offer of dutch treat.  Especially if the plan is your idea.  Maybe where you took her was not within her budget and she felt offering to chip in or leave the tip would look chintzy -and she couldn't afford to split it.  

[jazz_lover]

We've had a lot of conversation. First date we went to a cafe and a quiet wine bar and talked for about 5 hours. Second date after the jazz we went to the late night cafe and talked for a few hours.  

I'm not one to overshare or talk about negatives during dating so I don't think that is a factor. She told me quite a bit about herself and I asked follow up questions. For example she mentioned she grew up on a farm and her grandfather had a rose garden so she's always been fond of roses and she was talking about the different branches of her family and her experience living in Paris. So it wasn't as if she was keeping thiings shallow and superficial on her side. But when I mentioned things about myself she didn't ask follow up questions or try to find out more about me.  

The dates weren't super expensive considering the length of time we spend together. First date was just coffee and a few glasses of wine. Second date she only had one drink during the show and was happy with peppermint tea at the cafe we went to. I'll do something during the day next date e.g. art gallery or something to mix things up. But she doesn't seem super high maintenance and I took her to jazz because we both love music and I wanted to see the show myself.

Texting I have some sympathy about because a lot of girls go the other extreme and after just a date and texting you all the time. And I guess it is early days and when we have had a few more dates maybe she will be more interested in trying to stay connected between dates and initiate conversations etc.... 

Like I said I consider these yellow flags so not running for the hills yet. Just seems a little strange as most girls even if not interested will ask polite questions during a date and even if their replies are all business reply relatively promptly not after like 12 hours.  And even girls who have no intention of paying will at some point at least make a half hearted attempt to split at least one of the bills or offer to pay for something simple like a coffee down the line.  

 

 

 

[jazz_lover]

As for financials she lives in a posh/exclusive part of London and is fashionably dressed and after the jazz we went to a late night ccafe and she could haev perhaps offered to split for that.  

[Batya33]

12 minutes ago, jazz_lover said:

As for financials she lives in a posh/exclusive part of London and is fashionably dressed and after the jazz we went to a late night ccafe and she could haev perhaps offered to split for that.  

You don't know if her parents etc support her financially.

[Kwothe28]

28 minutes ago, jazz_lover said:

As for financials she lives in a posh/exclusive part of London and is fashionably dressed and after the jazz we went to a late night ccafe and she could haev perhaps offered to split for that.  

And you expect her to offer to pay? 

As Ive said, you are going for the girls who are well off in life. They all have used to a certain kind of lifestyle. For example yours grew up in Paris and is now in posh side of London. With all due respect, those kind of girls got used to never take their wallets out of the purse. Because there was always somebody else paying. You will never get that one to offer to pay for anything. 

[lostandhurt]

I agree it is way to early to start declaring colors of flags.

First off you asked her on a date so you pay unless other arrangements were discussed. Yes some people will offer to split the bill or cover the tip or what ever but some don't.  Now if she asks you on a date she will pay.

 I have encountered women that "date" as entertainment or as a social mechanism in their lives. They aren't all that interested in a serious relationship even though they play like they are but this doesn't seem like that.

As far as her not asking questions about you why don't you bring that up next time?  "Hey I have learned about you on our dates but you hardly know anything about me, do you have anything you want to ask me?"  Phrasing it like this is not in her face opposed to: "I have shown a lot of interest in you but you don't seem to care to get to know me"

 You are dating so be brave and speak up.  If you don't because you are afraid of scaring her off or don't want to ruin it remember that if you are having these doubts it isn't going as well as you want it to so what is there to mess up?

 What would happen if you called her on the phone?  You know a voice to voice call.

 Lost

[Cherylyn]

Perhaps it's too early to have orange flags.  Date her and have calm discussions without so many distractions such as loud music or busy places.  I agree with @Wiseman2.  Each date doesn't have to be expensive.  How about something less formal such as a walk, picnic weather permitting and the like?  It doesn't always have to be entertainment. 

Engage in a conversation without paying attention to venue.  If she isn't the type you're looking for, she's not for you long term.  I'm sorry.  After that, don't waste anymore time, energy nor resources on her. 

[Andrina]

You've already asked her out twice. IMO, it's her turn to put in the effort. If you want to suggest a third date, fine, but the 4th should definitely be at her invitation. And if she asks, but then doesn't pull out the money to pay, then I would think she's spoiled and not good dating material.

Even if she's physically friendly and talks a lot, you never know if deep down she's nervous and might eventually begin asking you more in depth questions. Hopefully, you'll be pleasantly surprised. If not, well then you'll feel confident you've put in enough time vetting.

[Tinydance]

Well to be honest it's a bit hard to say what's really going on here. I think also even if let's say she's doing nothing particularly wrong, but the way she's acting isn't what you want in a partner, that's also fine. For example, I'm really talkative myself and love talking. So the people I usually get along the best with aren't actually people who talk a lot as well. I find that to be a personality clash. I click better with people who are low to medium level of talkative and who don't just dominate the whole conversation. That's because it's very important for me to talk because I enjoy it and that's just my personality. 

My best friend though is quiet and more shy and she actually likes people who talk a lot and carry the conversation. So sometimes we'll hang out for a few hours and it's mainly me talking. But she actually likes it and really enjoys my company because she's not much of a talker herself.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you're having a five hour date and it's mostly her talking and not asking you much...If you don't like that then it's fine. She might not necessarily be disinterested in you but she's just very talkative and enjoys more talking about herself than you. I think in dating you just need to find someone whose communication style you like, and they like yours. As to what the style is, that's probably up to the individual.

In terms of you paying for everything on the first few dates. I think to be honest it depends on the person's culture and upbringing. There are some countries where it actually is genuinely believed that the man should pay, at least for the first few dates. I agree that she could have paid at least a bit here and there. But as to whether she's some kind of actual gold digger or she's just more traditional, that's hard to say.

In terms of her messaging you so litte between dates and taking long to reply. It could be that she's not much of a texter but it could also be that she's seeing other guys/not that into you. Personally this would put me off more than the other things you mentioned. I think even if someone isn't a big texter, if they're into you why can't they at least send more than one sentence back? I think she needs to make at least a bit more effort. The messages don't need to be super long but taking many hours to reply and just one word answers just seems cold.

[jazz_lover]

She finally got back to me replying "Sorry just saw your message". She sent me a few videos from the jazz.  I waited a few hours and texted back saying "Thanks for the videos. Brought back nice memories". She texted an hour later saying "I had a great time" followed by a shy smile emoticon and shortly after sent me a YouTube video saying "btw this is the Brazilian bossa nova singer i told you about". Over the next hour or so we exchanged a few bossa nova videos complimenting each other on our choices before she presumably fell asleep or something.

She also did mention a few times already that she is shy. It is hard to believe. But I know shyness manifests in different ways. So perhaps that is a factor. 

I guess she isn't much of a texter and probably distracted by work/friends/hobbies etc. Which is fine so I should just use texts to arrange dates. 

Will definitely do something simple and inexpensive next date to mix it up a bit and make sure she is equally happy and affectionate when I'm not splashing the cash on drinks/entertainment etc. 

 

 

 

 

 

[jazz_lover]

I like that she talks a lot so that isn't a problem at all for me as I am on the quieter side and I am a good listener. So it is less to do with me wanting to talk more but rather I just want to make sure she has a bit of curiosity about me as a person and what makes me tick. But maybe that will come later on. 

She's Brazilian and only been in the UK a few years so maybe she's just used to a more traditional construct of dating and doesn't know the dating etiquette here. 

Agree it feels like she could make a little more effort texting. Perhaps the way to go is to wait until midweek to text her to schedule the next date. 

[boltnrun]

54 minutes ago, jazz_lover said:

I guess she isn't much of a texter and probably distracted by work/friends/hobbies etc. Which is fine so I should just use texts to arrange dates. 

 

22 minutes ago, jazz_lover said:

it feels like she could make a little more effort texting.

You're contradicting yourself there!

What do you prefer, a prolific texter or someone who you have a great time with in person?

[Wiseman2]

5 hours ago, jazz_lover said:

She's Brazilian and only been in the UK a few years so maybe she's just used to a more traditional construct of dating and doesn't know the dating etiquette here. 

You are the one driving the "etiquette". You're suggesting the places, you're buying the drinks.

Your female friends have seen this pattern of dating foreign women, and taking them to jazz clubs and drinking, but questing their motives all along. Over and over. So they're basing it on your account of things and your dating patterns.

So it may not be this particular woman or this particular culture, but rather your approach to dating in general..

[poorlittlefish]

I don't know if it's a culture thing, but my friend is in a relationship with a Brazilian woman and she never offers to pay for anything either. 

When someone's not asked me anything about myself, I've said something along the lines of, "It's dawned on me that I've been asking lots of questions about you. What would you like to know about me?" 

As for the dates, I'd do something similar, eg "I've realised that our dates so far have been on me. How about you choosing our next one?" 

[Batya33]

I wouldn't say "dates have been on me" but rather - so, I think it's  your turn to plan our next date - can't wait to see what you will come up with! 

And also she is quite interested in your taste in jazz -isn't that part of what makes you tick? 

[WaywardKiwi]

21 hours ago, jazz_lover said:

I do not want to be with someone who just wants to be entertained and has no real interest in me and is stroking me with a bit of affection here and there to keep me keen...

Hey Jazz,

Welcome back. Unfortunately, this situation does not seem so far removed from your previous posts. You seem to have highly developed normative expectations around women and dating, and perhaps tend to overly focus on attributes or behaviours which disagree with those expectations. As wiseman has pointed out in previous threads, this is likely exacerbated by your tendency to date women with cultural backgrounds and histories varying from your own.

While some contributors have recommended against being direct with your expectations around splitting bills, conversational flow, etc, given your post history I would suggest you should lay out these expectations early and in detail. You have a tendency to over analyse and fixate on these issues, which in turn dominates your dating process and sabotages your opportunities.

You clearly have high physical attraction to latina and middle eastern women, however struggle to read the cultural mores and behaviours. In the past I have harshly read some sense of cultural superiority in your posts, however stepping back from that, if you really want to pursue relationships with women from these cultural backgrounds (beyond early dating and physicality which you seem to have no problem with), maybe you can do some research and even try befriend other people, male and female, from those cultures to pick their brains. Ultimately, while you may find your unicorn who does everything the way you expect while still having that sultry, sexy aura, it is more likely you will need to adjust your expectations and goal posts if you continue to fish in that pool. 

Best of luck,

T

[jazz_lover]

T/WM: agree that I have to make allowances for the cultural differences. As I understand in those cultures things are more traditional and closer to courting than modern dating so there is more onus on the man to pay/show interest/chase. I do have foreign friends of both sexes and they often say dating confuses them as they don't really have the concept back home as you'd meet through friends/social circle. So will try to be sympathetic to that and give her the benefit of the doubt and make allowances.

I think being direct at this point might come across as confrontational and I think the suggestions made by other posters have eased my concerns on the various points I mentioned:

I think planning a simple and inexpensive next date is a good approach to move things forward. 

And if she doesn't ask much in the way of questions I can use the suggestion of asking if there is anything she'd like to know about me to encourage her to ask me a bit more about myself. 

And as for the texting I agree it is not really a big deal so long as she makes time to date me and we have a good time on dates. 

As Batya points out we do seem to have some interests in common. As well as jazz we are both into art and old movies and love nature. And I guess we must have some mutual physical attraction as she's been pretty tactile and kissed me passionately. So it seems quite promising so far. 

 

[Wiseman2]

34 minutes ago, jazz_lover said:

 to encourage her to ask me a bit more about myself. 

Unless she's dominating the conversation, you can volunteer as much about yourself as you like.