Are these orange flags?

[Batya33]

6 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

You would see by next date or after if she would take out wallet or offer for her to buy something. People who would want to share, would offer that. Because they wouldnt want you to pay for everything. Or would at least make you up on other ways. People that wouldnt want to share, would just let you pay. Without pardon. Because they think they deserve that. You can also see the character of the person in that. 

Yes for sure it is a watch the feet not the lips.  Like do you see those people who will apologize to the wall because they bumped into the wall? It's reflexive.  This is as well -can't help themselves but offer, but take out the wallet, go to grab the check - go to the maitre d and tell them "when he asks for the check please give it right to me".  Seen all this done, done it myself.  There are ways and it's mostly instinct/reflex.  

[jazz_lover]

Yeah I think I will wait a few dates and see if she does anything like the kind of things Batya suggested that indicate while she likes the man to pay she doesn't take it for granted and wants to contribute a little. If she doesn't then perhaps a conversation might be required. 

I sent her a few options for the art exhibition and she sent me an enthusiastic reply saying positive things about my choices and asking which one I liked the look of best. I think I'll plump for the immersive art exhibition as it doesn't sound like she's been to that kind of thing whereas she's been to plenty of traditional galleries and it engages more of the senses and is more of an interactive experience. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[boltnrun]

Just be careful not to overdo it in an attempt to impress her.

My brother bought his ex wife (his first ex wife) a ginormous diamond engagement ring. Unbelievably, the jeweler who sold it to him warned him not to start out with such a huge diamond. He said "she's going to expect you to go bigger and bigger every time from now on". Boy, was he right. She asked constantly for jewelry and always wanted it to be bigger and more flashy with each purchase. She also refused to work yet demanded my brother get higher and higher paying jobs because she wanted him to be able to buy her expensive things. 

So go easy on the expensive dates. Don't always go for the higher priced items or tickets. If you don't want to be used for your money don't be so eager to spend so much of it on her. 

[jazz_lover]

Oh yeah I am not going to end up being led down the expensive presents/holidays/restaurants/theatre tickets route. 

Jazz and art is moderately but not insanely expensive in London. Jazz tickets and art gallery tickets are generally around $30 each. To put that into context you'd easily pay that for an entirely forgettable dinner and glass of wine at a chain restaurant.  And I have been careful about not providing entertainment AND dinner. But when we have mutual interests in jazz and art it seemed good to take advantage of that fact as if she is in the habit of letting guys pay I am sure she has been taken to her fair share of fancy dinners and rooftop bars and I do not want to go down that route.

When I do eventually take her for dinner I will choose somewhere highly rated for its food/atmosphere but inexpensive. Luckily such places do exist in London. You pay much the same as you would in an inexpensive chain restaurant. But the food and/or experience is better. 

And if it means that part of the reason she likes me is because I know where to find good jazz/art/food in London I am OK with that because that is part of who I am and how I like to spend my free time. 

I also like to travel and occasionally I do like an expensive restaurant if the quality of the food is very high. But they are luxuries for me when I am paying just for myself and not within my budget if I'm paying for two. So unless it is a birthday or something I would perhaps say something like:

"I'd love to take you to Paris for the weekend and happy to pay for the Eurostar tickets but would you be able to contribute towards the hotel as paying for both would stretch my budget a little too far and I want us to stay somewhere nice together where you'd feel comfortable rather than a budget hotel". 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tinydance]

To be honest I do see a red flag here and that's the fact that she takes 18 hours to respond to your messages. I think if you're interested in someone you would not be taking this long to respond to every message and then send only one word answers. If she's interested then she'd feel like talking to you more. So if she is actually using you then it might be from the perspective that she's not actually into you but she's letting you pay.

[Wiseman2]

8 minutes ago, jazz_lover said:

Oh yeah I am not going to end up being led down the expensive presents/holidays/restaurants/theatre tickets route.

If you decide to go Dutch, let her know well in advance, so she can decline if necessary. You can't decide for her what she's going to spend her money on. So be crystal clear on that.

Don't just take it upon yourself to come up with all these ideas and things You want to do and invite her to,  then announce: "by the way, cough up your half now". 

[Kwothe28]

I am sorry, but reminded me on your situation. 😅

[Wiseman2]

19 hours ago, jazz_lover said:

 And the Turkish girl I dated a year ago ....

Your concerns seem to be related to this. However you're following the same exact modus operandi. Recent foreigner, jazz clubs, drinks, picking the venues, etc . But now you're female friends are insinuating these women are golddiggers. Thus your concern about flags.   But again you have a very specific MO. All you can do is change up the way you go about things.

[jazz_lover]

I wouldn't really say the MO is that specific. I like jazz clubs so I often date girls who also like jazz. I pay for the tickets. And most of the girls I date will then split the bill for drinks we enjoy during the performance or in some cases even insist on paying because I bought the tickets. 

On the first or second date I might do drinks. Because post pandemic cafes all close around 5pm so if I am meeting a girl after work it is the only option. I would buy the first round. And if the girl is enjoying herself she will invariably offer to buy the next round of her own accord. And for health reasons I stop at one or two drinks which keeps the cost down. 

As for picking the venues while sometimes women invite me on dates it tends to be rare and only when they are super keen and want from the word go to see more than once a week. Most usually wait until I invite them out next. And most of my female friends complain about guys without a plan who always ask them what they want to do. Often I will give options though to involve my date in the date planning and sometimes we will discuss future date ideas on dates which helps with planning. 

She's been in the UK since 2019 when she came over to do her masters. So not that recent. As for the foreigner thing it is not by design. London is a cosmopolitan city. 

I would say it is fair to say that I have limited experience with girls who expect the man to pay for everything. So I am trying to give her a chance to show she isn't like the other one and seeing if she will start to contribute in a small way like Batya suggested she could. And I am going to try to do a better job at managing expectations by not taking her to fancy restaurants or theatre etc.

 

 

 

[jazz_lover]

Plan for Saturday is confirmed. It seems like there will be a bit of sunshine so I suggested we enjoy a walk in the park before the immersive art. She suggested doing a picnic. I said that was a great idea and there was a deli nearby we could pick up some stuff. She said she would bring her picnic blanket. And in general she's been quite a bit chattier over the last few days by text. So I think perhaps she was just very stressed and pre-occupied with the conference she was preparing for which was on Wednesday and Thursday and with that off her mind she will try to stay a bit more connected between dates especially if tomorrow goes well. 

But I have been impressed at her enthusiasm getting involved planning this date. I gave her a few options for the art exhibition and she gave me a thoughtful response weighing up each option while saying they were all great choices and asked which I thought was best and agreeing with me and she contributed the picnic idea which will work great as it means we can enjoy some food together without needing to go to an expensive restaurant and means we can again spend four or five hours together. 

Of course a picnic is very ambitious for this time of year and forecast could always deteriorate so I probably need a plan B for before the art if it isn't as warm/sunny as projected and the art is booked for 5pm so no possibility to go earlier. But I will keep my fingers crossed.

 

 

[trojan]

But unless you are pretty impoverished, you admitted finally that the dates weren't expensive. she only had one drink and then a peppermint tea. hopefully, you can cover that. you asked her for jazz and you should pay for that. she is probably just giving you some space and not prying into your affairs, or more likely you are reading way too much into this. sounds like you spend the barest amount possible. It's okay. for the first few dates I used to take them on free dates, walking, skiing, etc. if we went for coffee, I paid. but it does not sound as if you are being lavish. constant texting after two dates is weird

 

[Tinydance]

I do actually think you need to watch out for how long she was taking to reply to you and the short answers. And comments like: "Sorry I didn't see your message." The only way she could have not seen it is if she hadn't used her phone for 18 hours and I highly doubt that lol 

In regards to paying, I usually found it depended on what country and culture the guys were from. I live in a big city in Australia and it's very multicultural. Amongst people who actually grew up here and younger people I don't think it's really expected that the guy would pay. Usually they do try to split the bill or they only invite you out for a coffee and just pay for your coffee. But when I went on dates with a Vietnamese, Indian or African guy, it was actually them that insisted they pay for me and they didn't accept me offering to pay. I think in those countries the gender roles are more traditional and they seemed to think it was completely normal that it should be them that pays.

The way I see it, you don't actually have to pay on dates but if you're dating an attractive woman from a culture where it's more expected, there might be a clash there. You seem very worried about how much you're having to spend and trying to come up with the cheapest dates you can think of. Are you worried deep down she's not really that into you and that's why you don't want to pay? Because I'd be more focusing on if she actually seems to like you rather than who pays, etc. If you're getting some kind of bad gut feeling then maybe you should listen to it.

[jazz_lover]

I said the dates weren't expensive because boltnrun said to go easy on the expensive dates. But I wouldn't say they were inexpensive either. First date was around $60 for a coffee and 2 rounds of drinks. Second date was around $120 as jazz tickets aren't cheap and because they have captive customers they charge a bit more for the drinks. So I wanted to balance out with a more modest third date so she didn't think it would be the high life every date and the art tickets were around $60 and it isn't really picnic weather so we will do coffee and if she doesn't have plans in the evening I might take her to an inexpensive but good restaurant. 

Paying for everything is relatively uncharted territory and even though I am a good salary as an accountant rents in London are crazy and taxes are high and the price of everything has rocketed in price since the pandemic especially in the service sector (restaurants, theatre, live music, cinema, hotels etc) and if things do work out I want it to be sustainable. And I also want to know that she is equally happy doing simple things with me because while I do enjoy nice restaurants, jazz clubs, theatre, holidays and so on I also like simple pleasures like a walk in the park, a quiet night in watching old movies, cooking together at home, a picnic in the park and so on. 

As for the texting thing she has started to text a little more since her work conference finished and has been a little more open to non-logistical/planning chit chat e.g. I sent her a photo of a rainbow I saw last afternoon and a few hours later she sent me a photo she'd taken of the moon set to a background of a midnight blue sky and said how much she loved natural beauty. I mentioned I also loved watching the sun set and she sent me a photo of a sunset she saw in Brazil overlooking the sea. I then mentioned a sunset I saw in Sicily where I saw the sea swallow up the sun and she must have been out with friends or something as she read it around 10pm and hasn't replied yet but that's understandable. 

 

 

[Batya33]

What is the purpose of treating this new person as an acquaintance you send photos to or a close friend you text with regularly if you live far apart? Sure it's sweet but it's also -at least to me- a bit much for someone you've only been out with a few times.  Why not show her these photos when you see her in person? I feel like you're testing her level of interest in this way and to me it's a poor test and can be a turn off.  For me -I used to save up stories/anecdotes to tell my bf either during our nightly phone call when we were long distance and exclusive or when we saw each other.  It made everything more interesting like slowly unwrapping layers of a package.

[Andrina]

So after the third date, will you wait to see if she makes a fourth date plan and pays? I know I would, in your shoes. And then if she questions you about the lack of an invite, I'd prearrange an answer that wouldn't sound belligerent. Maybe something like: Oh, in past dating experience, I've been used to the woman taking some part in planning dates and paying as well.

And even if she texts the question, I'd call to answer, since texts often lack tone.

You might even be proactive if things go well on the third date and bring it up yourself and say in a playful way, "Well, I've been having fun planning all these dates with you. Let's say you come up with plans for the next one."

If she does but expects you to pay, you can say in a nice way that your expectations involve treating each other to dates in an equal manner, and sometimes going dutch.

Let us know how it goes.

[WaywardKiwi]

3 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I feel like you're testing her level of interest...

Personally, I feel this is the main theme throughout your posts Jazz. Its always testing and analyzing and speculating and divining womens underlying intents and purposes. Its always convoluted and, honestly, vaguely misogynistic (insofar as it always seems to be some concern around their sexual history/activity or money). You never seem willing to just say what you want, need or expect, and instead turn ever date and text exchange into a zero-sum calculus in pursuit of your own imagined analysis (or perhaps in this case planted by a friend).

I don't think my advice is really for you, as I don't really see the value in your approach. But relax, enjoy dating, put yourself out there honestly and directly when it comes to deal breakers (i.e. if you expect women to go dutch on occasion, you should tell them). If someone cant meet your standards, gracefully part ways. I still think your current approach is actually sabotaging possibly good relationships because of your undercurrent of mistrust and gameplaying.

[boltnrun]

3 hours ago, jazz_lover said:

boltnrun said to go easy on the expensive dates

Not quite what I said.  I related a story about my brother.  You expressed concerns she would expect you to always pay.  And I said if you always pay for expensive outings that sets a precedent.

[Wiseman2]

5 hours ago, jazz_lover said:

Paying for everything is relatively uncharted territory 

It's fine however you want to proceed. However if you are going Dutch say mention it upfront so you two can plan something together that fits both your budgets. 

 It could add a "we're friends" vibe to the picture, especially this early on.  It would be different if you were to alternate planning/paying.

However you can't pick your jazz clubs, your restaurants, your museums, your places,etc  then say "ok, cough up the money now" when the bill comes.

 Your prior dating paying history should not enter the conversation. Just "let's take turns picking and paying".

 

[jazz_lover]

Bit of a disaster date. Weather was almost good enough for a picnic with a bit of sun so we went for it. We went to a supermarket she suggested some antipasti and then insisted on a bottle of wine. I started queuing up at the till and she disappeared saying she wanted to get strawberries too and by the time she returned I was at the checkout and about to pay so she added the strawberries and I paid. 

We had a nice conversation over picnic people and dog watching a bit and she was talking about Brazil and how London was much safer and guys were more respectful. As we heard to the art she said I forgot to ask you when was your last serious relationship. I said pre pandemic and asked her when was hers she said a few years ago. I asked for how long and she said a few months which was a bit confusing. She also mentioned a guy last year she dated but ended it because he wasn’t looking for a serious relationship.

The art was interesting but all the motion and visual effects made me very dizzy and nauseous.

we went to the gift shop she bought herself a few souvenirs and surprised me with a paper bookmark as she knows I like to read which I guess was a nice gesture.

She suggested motion sickness medication and took me to a pharmacy and found some for me so paid for that too and think I got ripped off because $20 for an otc medication seemed excessive. She then asked if I was taking subway or bus home. I said subway she said she was taking the bus and hoped I’d feel better soon. 

The wine followed by 3d type effects was a bad combination and I’m feeling pretty nauseous. But didn’t feel like a good date 

[jazz_lover]

Think at this point taking a step back and waiting a week or so to see if she suggests meeting again might be a good idea. I wasn’t feeling it as much as last few times although maybe motion sickness and cheap supermarket wine (which I let her choose) was a factor 

[Batya33]

15 minutes ago, jazz_lover said:

Think at this point taking a step back and waiting a week or so to see if she suggests meeting again might be a good idea. I wasn’t feeling it as much as last few times although maybe motion sickness and cheap supermarket wine (which I let her choose) was a factor 

I hope you feel better and see how you feel about things tomorrow.  Sounds like you were keeping score with the paying which can detract from having fun.

[jazz_lover]

Oh also I let her choose the picnic items as the picnic add on was her idea and she barely touched the large meat and cheese platter she selected but then when i checked the time and realised we were running a little late she insisted that we finish the wine (the bottle was half full at this point). I said that I don’t want anymore and was fine to throw the rest but she said it would be a shame to let it go to waste and poured herself a large cup and drank it quickly. My fault for not keeping a better eye on the time but was a little weird. 

[Tinydance]

1 hour ago, jazz_lover said:

Oh also I let her choose the picnic items as the picnic add on was her idea and she barely touched the large meat and cheese platter she selected but then when i checked the time and realised we were running a little late she insisted that we finish the wine (the bottle was half full at this point). I said that I don’t want anymore and was fine to throw the rest but she said it would be a shame to let it go to waste and poured herself a large cup and drank it quickly. My fault for not keeping a better eye on the time but was a little weird. 

Look sorry, while I don't think the man always needs to pay, but you're starting to actually sound stingy and petty. You keep writing here keeping a score of every single thing you spent money on with this woman. Even including the medication and said you got ripped off. Even though the medication was actually for you so you spent that money on yourself.

I do agree with you that she should have been offering to chip in. But at the same time I think you seem overly fixated on every single thing you spent money on and you're making a big deal out of it. I think with buying the foods and wine for the picnic, yes you paid for it but you were actually going to share all of it. So you could have eaten half of everything you got so it's not like she ate it all alone. You wrote: "She barely touched the cheese platter". Like you were keeping score of what she ate and didn't eat, since you paid. Also just because you paid doesn't mean she has to force herself to keep eating if she was full. You could have eaten the cheese platter yourself or taken it home.

Also if you don't want to pay for everything then I think there is a way to do it. For example, let's say you're drinking in a bar. You buy one round of drinks but then you say to her: "Do you mind getting us another drink?" Or you say something like: "Well that was a nice dinner, would you like to go somewhere else now and you can shout me a coffee?" You actually have never asked her to pay for anything yourself, you just keep paying. Maybe if you asked her she'd pay. Or if she didn't then you'd see she's like that and just always expects the man to pay. But at this point I don't think you actually have evidence in either direction because you always pay and never asked her to.

[Tinydance]

8 hours ago, WaywardKiwi said:

Personally, I feel this is the main theme throughout your posts Jazz. Its always testing and analyzing and speculating and divining womens underlying intents and purposes. Its always convoluted and, honestly, vaguely misogynistic (insofar as it always seems to be some concern around their sexual history/activity or money). You never seem willing to just say what you want, need or expect, and instead turn ever date and text exchange into a zero-sum calculus in pursuit of your own imagined analysis (or perhaps in this case planted by a friend).

I don't think my advice is really for you, as I don't really see the value in your approach. But relax, enjoy dating, put yourself out there honestly and directly when it comes to deal breakers (i.e. if you expect women to go dutch on occasion, you should tell them). If someone cant meet your standards, gracefully part ways. I still think your current approach is actually sabotaging possibly good relationships because of your undercurrent of mistrust and gameplaying.

I was starting to get this impression too.

[jazz_lover]

I’m a bit tetchy maybe with the sickness. Feeling better now. 

i think I’m more comfortable going Dutch. It was suggested I wait to see if she started to contribute in a small way but I think it’s become a test and agree it’s not healthy. Refining the terms at this point seems a little tricky and agree I’m partly at fault by seeming happy to pay and not directly asking if she’d be ok splitting at any point. I should have done that when the bill came at the jazz club for the drink we each had.

I had no issue buying the tickets for the jazz or art as it was my idea and I would have done so even with girls who’d indicated from the first date they wanted to go 50:50 on restaurant checks/bar tabs etc.

And there were other little things:

-she thinks two months is a serious long term relationship. 

-the only questions she’s asked me so far are what I’m looking for and when my last serious relationship was which along with letting me pay seems to indicate she’s looking for a provider type. Even when I asked her questions such as what was the last film she watched or what holidays she had planned this year she never asked the questions back

-she kept talking about her family beach house and farm and how her father has an important job in government and there are lots of doctors in her family and how most of her friends in Brazil are on drugs and how she lived in the most exclusive neighbourhood in Rio and how she has four masters. I don’t think it’s intentional bragging but I think it does indicate we might be from very different worlds as it sounds as though she’s from a privileged background by her country’s standards at least. I’m pretty normal middle class etc. 

I am inclined to take a step back. Wait for an indication from her that she’s keen to see me again. And in the meantime explore other options.