I fear that no woman will truly like me and any woman I date will only be settling for me.

[Tinydance]

On 4/3/2022 at 2:00 AM, ProfessorSunflower said:

Yes it does, but my point isn't just about the looks. The rugby men are also attractive because of their dominant and aggressive behaviour. This is reflected in erotica aimed at women; Fifty Shades, Outlander, etc. I just don't have that personality. 

Again, every example I have ever found of a woman partnered with a guy like me involves one or both of these tropes:

 

1. She wouldn't have liked him when she was younger but now she wants stability.

 

2. She thinks he's a good partner but is bored and not turned on by him.

 

Most of them obviously don't cheat, but they fantasize about men who are not only more sexually attractive than their partners but also totally different in personality.

So is this the best I can hope for? Do I just accept that my partner won't like me as much as I like them?

What is your obsession with 50 Shades and Outlander? Lol They're fictional, fictional means made up. I also find it interesting you're comparing it to these particular shows because they're extremely far fetched. Women go back in time? Women all date a really hot millionaire? At least can you get proof from more substantial shows or movies that even remotely resemble real life.

[spinstermanquee]

2 hours ago, Tinydance said:

What is your obsession with 50 Shades

my .02?  it was popular because SHE CHANGED THE GUY.  not real life.  discard references.

[greendots]

With all respect, what's your endgame? Do you actually want guidance on how to get out of your current predicament? Or you'd rather we acquiesce to your way of thinking?

Honestly, this "I'm not the guy with a 6-pack, so no woman desires me. Here is proof." spiel is unattractive. So my suggestion: change your mindset. A positive mindset is one of the most alluring qualities a man could have!

Posters have suggested you get in shape, upgrade your wardrobe as well as hairstyle, and join some clubs / groups. Why not look into that? You are worth it. 🙂

 

 

[1a1a]

Add me to the list of contributors who much much prefers her men slender and effeminate (long hair big big plus). 
 

This other thing has happened with everyone I’ve dated in the last 15 years, it wasn’t how they looked that attracted me. Most often they were passionate about something I’m passionate. With the current guy there’s not even that, but his energy in space, I’m down for that. And actually, he is more typically masculine, and I spent a long time working on getting past the obstacle of not really being attracted to his physique.

 

What do you and your current interest have in common? What can you bond over? What does it feel like when you’re face to face? Does she flirt with you? Do you flirt with her? And will you get a mental health care professional on your team right now to work on your insecurity and cognitive distortions? Two reasons, one, confidence is more sexy than any kind of body. And two, as long as you don’t like, love or respect yourself, in the end you will not like, love or respect anyone who thinks more highly of you than you do. Which means every woman that is ever organically, genuinely attracted to you is going to inevitably repulse you. 

[ProfessorSunflower]

11 hours ago, Tinydance said:

Erotica is in the very literal sense just fantasy. It's the same as watching porn, in which most of the actors look hot and have a certain stereotypical look. Most people don't actually get to go out with people like these and I think generally people are realistic in who they can actually get. 

I understand that you haven't had much experience with women but it doesn't seem like you've actually tried to get to know women individually. Rather you've just been doing a lot of online "research" about women. I put research in inverted commas because I think all the things you found are basically just stereotypes about women. Women are not just all the same person, you can't use generalised statements like "All women like X guys". Majority of my friends are female and they're into different kinds of men, including me. 

I personally never liked overly muscly guys or macho, alpha male guys. Most guys I dated were kind of nerds, into video games, sci-fi, going to pop culture conventions, computers, things like that. I mean, sure, women might perve on a hot guy because that's just human nature. That doesn't mean though that they wouldn't date just average, realistic looking guys.

I find it funny that you said that women want a guy like Christian Grey from 50 Shades of Grey. First of all, I think that guy was a complete jerk. Secondly, basically 90% of women can't get a guy like him. He's a really attractive millionaire. I don't think that most women are so deluded as to think they could get a guy like that!

That's exactly my point. I'm worried that women will just date me because they can't get a more attractive and interesting guy, which is what you just said.

Fantasy doesn't exist in a vacuum. People don't fantasize about people they're not attracted to. If I see a woman in a film that I find attractive, it's not as if I wouldn't find a similar looking woman IRL attractive as well.

What makes erotica different from pornography is that it focuses on personality as well. Rugby players aren't just attractive for how their look, but also their macho personalities. Ditto with 50 Shades. Every example I've read of women dating a guy like me involves them at some points feeling bored and more attracted to conventionally masculine men.

It would be one thing if my partner just found other people good-looking but preferred my personality. In this case, the women are bored by the appearance and personality of their partner. They stick around because they realize the men they are more organically attracted to male bad partners. Hence the show Outlander; she's married to a historian but becomes seduced by the adventurous caveman. In Five Easy Pieces, Catherine is engaged to a nice, kind man but is seduced by his boorish brother. 

A good example of this is in Outsiders. A Girl becomes attracted to a bad boy gangster, and deliberately avoids interacting with him so as to avoid being seduced. She actually says "If I see him again, I'm going to fall in love with him." It's akin to what a drug addiction would say; she wants him, but knows he's bad for her.

I've never heard or seen an example of a woman who was organically attracted to somebody with a personality like mine. Every example I've seen of a woman dating a guy like involves them saying that they're doing so in spite of the fact that other men are more sexy and exciting. I don't want to be in a relationship like that, because it would mean I like my partner more than vice versa.

[ProfessorSunflower]

11 hours ago, Tinydance said:

What is your obsession with 50 Shades and Outlander? Lol They're fictional, fictional means made up. I also find it interesting you're comparing it to these particular shows because they're extremely far fetched. Women go back in time? Women all date a really hot millionaire? At least can you get proof from more substantial shows or movies that even remotely resemble real life.

I am studying for a Master's degree. I graduated with honours from my undergraduate college. I know fictional means unreal. I don't think 50 Shades and Outlander are based on real-life events. I brought them up because they are both incredibly popular with women. I think 20% of British women own a copy of 50 Shades. The stories aren't real, but their popularity is.

There are some more realistic examples. In Five Easy Pieces, Catherine is engaged to a nice, kind man but is seduced by his boorish brother. A good example of this is in Outsiders. A Girl becomes attracted to a bad boy gangster, and deliberately avoids interacting with him so as to avoid being seduced. She actually says "If I see him again, I'm going to fall in love with him." It's akin to what a drug addiction would say; she wants him, but knows he's bad for her.

We can even ignore fantasy and focus on real life. I linked some studies earlier that demonstrated women partnered with non-masculine men feel bored and start becoming more attracted to "bad boys". A piece from Psychology Today said women married to nice guys feel they're in a sexual coma not despite, but because of their partners' good qualities. Why would I want to date somebody who feels that way about me?

[ProfessorSunflower]

12 hours ago, Batya33 said:

That really makes no sense.  And even if it were true you don't need to marry "many women" - just one who is the right match for you.  What's with all the generalizing.  And no it is not true in the least.

What makes no sense?

[Wiseman2]

See a physician for an evaluation of your physical and mental health. Discuss the obsessions and ruminating and repeating yourself over and over and over.

Unfortunately many mental health issues appear in people's 20s. Including several mood and thought disorders.

Ask for a referral to a qualified therapist for ongoing support.

Refrain from faux "data", that is simply incels style thinking and confirmation bias. You're trying to infer fact from fictionalized characters. This is the type of convoluted logic seen in thought disorders as well as brainwashing from incels type cults.

[ProfessorSunflower]

On 4/3/2022 at 11:21 PM, maritalbliss86 said:

I agree with Blue.... I think you're over complicating things and over generalizing human behavior.

I studied the female brain fairly extensively, and yes hormones and certain times of month cause women to have feelings of wanting one thing and then the opposite, but it demonstrated it had little effect on them actually going out and acting on the hormonal fluctuations.

For example, women when ovulating DO or are at more risk to be attracted to a more masculine type. But what I found through research and studies was that they preferred to be around gay men the rest of the month!

I mean you can't base all your life decisions on hormonal fluctuations that happen to help the population reproduce. People are still able to make rational decisions and do so.  Just because it's been shown they prefer to be with a gay man the rest of the month (temperament wise apparently) it doesn't mean all or *any* women would ever act on that and ditch their husbands. It just means that they are attracted to different types of men at different times of the month.

Think about it this way... A woman marries an average guy she is decently attracted to, and then has lots of sex with her long-term partner and oxytocin hormones flood her brain (the strong bonding ones that produce huge emotions of satisfaction and love etc) then her average guy would have to destroy the relationship to get her to that place of wanting to cheat. Even if he's just a regular man. 

If you find a woman you is decently attracted to you, and you have regular intense sex (!) you will start producing more testosterone naturally and that bonds her to you even more at a pheromone and hormonal level. Her attraction can or will increase if it's the right relationship. She'll even be more fertile with you if you up your testosterone ... that's been proven scientifically. Then her ovulating time of month will cause her to crave you intensely which is what you want. You don't have to look anything remotely like a celebrity to have that. A lot of it comes down to testosterone and natural personality matching with someone.

A way to decrease her attraction would be to worry too much about these things. 

It's really not a lost cause 👍 you are producing testosterone already, increasing it during a relationship (or also through weightlifting naturally) will have good benefits all around for you.

Again, the study I linked showed several examples of women feeling less attracted to their partners during ovulation, provided the partners were not typically masculine. A piece in Psychology Today said women with nice guys often feel they're in a sexual coma, not in spite but because of their partners' good traits. I'm sure you understand why I wouldn't want to be in such a relationship.

Your comment gave me quite a but of hope. I very much like the idea of being with somebody whose attraction to me only increases during ovulation. I'm just sceptical if I can find a woman who would feel such a way. The reason rugby players are attractive isn't just for their looks but also their macho, aggressive personalities. Im the opposite of a rugby player in ever way; Im much more interested in films and books than in sport or fighting.

So is it possible that my potential partner will become more attracted to me during ovulation in spite of my not being a masculine person? How so?

[Batya33]

44 minutes ago, ProfessorSunflower said:

Fantasy doesn't exist in a vacuum. People don't fantasize about people they're not attracted to. If I see a woman in a film that I find attractive, it's not as if I wouldn't find a similar looking woman IRL attractive as well.

So how many people do you know who settled for their careers and don't really have a work ethic because their true fantasy is to win the lottery? People who actually act on that fantasy by living their lifes in this limbo/settled phase (I don't play the lottery but honestly would not stop working if I won).  Fantasies do not exist in a vacuum.  For the vast majority of people, they handle their fantasies while being very very happy with reality and/or working to make reality better -reality, not fantasy.  Fantasy is healthy and people who fantasize most often don't bemoan how they're settling without realizing a fantasy.

I've met famous celebrities in person - males.  I'm such a groupie sometimes -not obsessed -just a groupie type especially for certain types of artists.  I met Jeff Daniels once and I know -not a "hottie" but I loved his movies and he had this warm smile and we chatted -with my boyfriend standing nearby LOL.  If he'd asked me out right then I'd have been flattered and said no and never felt like I was settling for my boyfriend. 

I also met Mikhail Baryshnikov and and a  famous rock star from my era mostly -the 80s - had a short conversation with the former, and a looooong convo as seatmates with the latter -again I get kinda star struck - and the rock star was so interesting too!  Has nothing to do with whether I went back to my real life and felt like I was settling.  Just made for a good story (I also met Mr. Big -briefly -again, same thing, whatever -you meet these people who are larger than life, it's really cool, maybe you even fantasize for a sec -but reality is awesome too!). 

It's not an either or. Stop the nonsense which is just you justifying doing nothing.  K?

[Batya33]

11 minutes ago, ProfessorSunflower said:

The reason rugby players are attractive isn't just for their looks but also their macho, aggressive personalities. Im the opposite of a rugby player in ever way; Im much more interested in films and books than in sport or fighting.

So is it possible that my potential partner will become more attracted to me during ovulation in spite of my not being a masculine person? How so?

It's only possible if you have a positive mindset, have reasonable confidence not arrogance, treat your partner as an individual person not a robot brainwashed by stats and studies, and show her that even if she gets cranky from PMS (I did) you'll do your best not to find her less attractive and be supportive.  

You're setting up a non-muscular straw man argument filled with flawed assumptions.  I thought you said you were interested in books? All types or just those that spout useless statistics? I recommend -if you read novels -Elizabeth Strout books especially Olive Kitteridge and the sequel -she writes about real people and real women -not this fantasy you've concocted about how women drool over rugby players during ovulation and therefore would not be attracted to their partners and be settling.

[Batya33]

35 minutes ago, ProfessorSunflower said:

What makes no sense?

Your theories. See my other posts.

[ProfessorSunflower]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

So how many people do you know who settled for their careers and don't really have a work ethic because their true fantasy is to win the lottery? People who actually act on that fantasy by living their lifes in this limbo/settled phase (I don't play the lottery but honestly would not stop working if I won).  Fantasies do not exist in a vacuum.  For the vast majority of people, they handle their fantasies while being very very happy with reality and/or working to make reality better -reality, not fantasy.  Fantasy is healthy and people who fantasize most often don't bemoan how they're settling without realizing a fantasy.

I've met famous celebrities in person - males.  I'm such a groupie sometimes -not obsessed -just a groupie type especially for certain types of artists.  I met Jeff Daniels once and I know -not a "hottie" but I loved his movies and he had this warm smile and we chatted -with my boyfriend standing nearby LOL.  If he'd asked me out right then I'd have been flattered and said no and never felt like I was settling for my boyfriend. 

I also met Mikhail Baryshnikov and and a  famous rock star from my era mostly -the 80s - had a short conversation with the former, and a looooong convo as seatmates with the latter -again I get kinda star struck - and the rock star was so interesting too!  Has nothing to do with whether I went back to my real life and felt like I was settling.  Just made for a good story (I also met Mr. Big -briefly -again, same thing, whatever -you meet these people who are larger than life, it's really cool, maybe you even fantasize for a sec -but reality is awesome too!). 

It's not an either or. Stop the nonsense which is just you justifying doing nothing.  K?

I'm actually reading a book now by David Graeber about people who hate their jobs. I certainly wouldn't work if I didn't have to and imagine most wouldn't either. 

The women gawking at Christian Bale is a real thing that happened. I imagine at least some of them were in relationships and yet they were perfectly willing to cheat on their partners with Bale. Not to mention if men did that to a female, that would rightly be considered sexual harassment. No woman would be fine with their partner gawking at Salma Hayek, so why should I be fine with my partner doing the same?

I'm unsure how many times I have to make this point; it's not just about finding other men attractive. It's also about thinking they have more interesting and exciting personalities. Every example I've heard, both real and fictional, of a woman with a man like me involves her with a feeling of conflict; her chemistry is more drawn to the dangerous and risky man but her desire for stability tells her the nice guy is better. Thus, she likes the nice guy less than vice versa.

 

[PatrickPinkStar]

On 4/1/2022 at 9:57 AM, ProfessorSunflower said:

To answer your question, studies, psychologists, and articles. I have never heard of any woman who is in a relationship with somebody like me and is not bored.

This study reported that women with less masculine partners felt tempted to cheat with masculine men.
These articles, written by psychologists, are about how women married to nice men are bored and begin to desire more conventionally masculine men.

"the delicate, tentative guy who politely thinks about you and asks if this is okay or that is okay is a guy who may meet the expectations of your gender politics (treats me as an equal; is respectful of me; communicates with me) and your parents’ preferences, but he may also put you into a sexual coma—not despite these qualities, but because of them."

Not to mention that media aimed at women reinforces this idea as well. All of women's erotica involves them getting with men who could not be more different than me, often cheating on husbands who are very much like me. Outlander is a great example.
Finally, as I mentioned, a woman I know at my university even said she'd like to stay and watch a men's rugby game because they think the players are good looking.
On the set of American Psycho, Christian Bale was sexually harassed by all of the women who worked on set because of his physique. At least some of those women were in relationships, yet they were apparently willing to cheat.

Wow man, first of all you don't need to change who you are or your personality, but you SERIOUSLY need to reconsider your choices of friends, information, etc!

If I look up the internet for "men are only attracted to thin women" there will be literally MILLIONS of articles affirming this... that doesn't mean THE WHOLE WORLD thinks this way. If I look for an article about the earth being flat, there will be THOUSANDS of articles "supporting" this, do NOT MAKE THEM FACTUALLY CORRECT!

YOU need to change your view of life and seriously get together with people who are better than just looking for looks, or standards of masculinity that you find in movies, tv shows or media in general. The world is full of imperfect humans, WE ALL ARE, and we all have the same chances of finding someone (believe it or not), the thing is YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE IT and BELIEVE YOU ARE WORTH IT... because it seems you kind of have something going on, but you DON'T LET IT BECOME SOMETHING BIGGER, BETTER AND MORE PROFOUND because of all your insecurities... well, the heck with what others think, YOU DO NOT NEED TO LOOK LIKE BRAD PIT TO BE THOROUGHLY AND PROFOUNDLY LOVED! ... or are you one of those who is also looking for a "perfect woman" because that is a whole other big can of worms... 

Get better friends, you know, normal friends, not those who belittle you for being a normal human. SEE YOURSELF IN THE MIRROR and SEE THAT YOU ARE JUST A PERSON, A MAN IN THIS CASE and there is nothing wrong with you (except how you are thinking about relationships)... stop feeling sorry for yourself and don't be afraid to enjoy a relationship. NO ONE IS PERFECT, and if someone doesn't like you, JUST MOVE ON, plenty of more people in the world. You are young and you should be cultivating yourself, not learning to hate others due misguided perceptions... take care of yourself and enjoy yourself so you can show the world all you have to give.

 

[mylolita]

I am gonna be terrible and say, I married the macho alpha male yes I did!

 

When I first met my husband, he has a chipped tooth, because he had just been in a fight and won it. He was a nearly professional boxer. Had an 8 pack. Grew up in a really rough area of Britain, knows how to handle himself, is street smart.

 

Only a couple of nights ago he came in VERY late from playing pool at the pub. I was so worried. He told me a guy had said he had to get off the table and give him his pool queue or he was gonna smash his face in. My husband said he wasn’t from where we are living, didn’t recognise him. He said he just threw him over the pool table. Guy hit his head; was unconscious. Police were called. The guys mates, think there were about 3 of them just backed right off and left. The landlord backed my husband up and said he had been starting trouble all night.

 

When I was younger, there was a guy in school who was very weird and obsessed with me. One day we were in the hall corridor, no one there. The guy pinned me to the wall, heavy breathed, staring nose to nose right into my eyes. I could see his hand moving towards my skirt. He didn’t do anything. His other hand was around my throat.

 

A year later I met and started dating my husband. We talk as we do and I mentioned it once. He was quite silent, just asked me lots of questions, what his name was, exactly what happened. A couple of months later a friend of mine told me this guy had LEFT TOWN because my husand (then boyfriend) had seen this guy at the petrol station, took him round the back and not even touched him. He pinned him up against the wall, put his hand round his throat. Said, how do you like it now? He told him to never even look at me again.

 

Okay, some people might be mortified at this. I kinda was but, did it make me hot under the collar? You bet. He always, always, has my back. In every way. He is exceptionally protective. He’s not this huge guy, he’s 5 foot 8inches. He’s just fast and strong,  naturally stocky and athletic even when overweight. Doesn’t have an 8 pack anymore, he’s 42 next month. We meet in the mind, that’s the thing. But his feisty principals of sticking up for himself and others is something we do share. I am not saying he is some unthinking brute. But, still. He’s a mans man. Doesn’t take any. 
 

All I am saying is, is it attractive? When a man can physically handle himself and doesnt let anyone push him around, intimate him, or you? Yes. I think on some biological and instinctive level, some women can relate to that protective nature as being very attractive.
 

I once was working at a little cafe. My now husband walks in to pick me up, he says he’s gonna wait in the car. A friend I worked with who was much older; married with children at that time (I was only 21) turned to me, without knowing him and said, “He’ll always look after you.” Only 14 years later do I know what she meant. He has provided for me financially, as a loving and attentive father. He has defended me, protected me. He has loved me and always been faithful. If that is not the definition of a man, I don’t know what is. 
 

Does your soul mate need rippling muscles? No. You have to meet mind to mind, heart to heart? Yes. Do you have to be physically attracted to them? Of course. You have to have a mash up of all the things that mean something too you. You can’t just have appearance alone, intellect alone. 
 

x

[bluecastle]

1 hour ago, ProfessorSunflower said:

The women gawking at Christian Bale is a real thing that happened. I imagine at least some of them were in relationships and yet they were perfectly willing to cheat on their partners with Bale

You are taking an offhand remark in a director's commentary and running with it to, I'm sorry, an absurd place. A movie set, a shower scene, a gorgeous body: there was some adolescent-tinged admiration. So what? This has nothing to do with those women cheating, being willing to cheat, or confirming some hypothesis of yours. To go there is wildly audacious and self-sabotaging. 

Personal story: An ex of mine worked as a stylist. She did a shoot with an Olympic athlete known for having an extraordinary physique. After the shoot I asked if he's was mind-blowing (that sinewy torso! the wingspan of those shoulders!) in real life as he is on TV. Yes, she said. Cool, I said. No biggie.  

This attitude and outlook you have? It's not uncommon, and not at all confined to non-macho men and non-hottie women. It's insecurity, self-stoked by over-intellectualization. People tend to tire of it, find it deeply unattractive, and what happens when people get bored and thirsty? Bonds fizzle, eyes and hearts start yearning for something more substantial. Why dig your grave with the help of DVD commentaries when you're still breathing is the question. 

All in all, people will behave in ways, every day, that confirm the worst stereotypes of people. On the flip side? They behave in ways, every day, that shatter them. In between those two extremes is where the glories of life transpire: connection, disconnection, pain, pleasure, love, lust. To live in that place, fully, requires some confidence. That's different than finding ways to be confident that you can't participate in life, as you wish, because of whatever numbers you drew from the DNA lottery. 

[reinventmyself]

5 hours ago, ProfessorSunflower said:

That's exactly my point. I'm worried that women will just date me because they can'tc geet a more attractive 

 attractive Rugby players 

 

A good example of this is in Outsiders. 

I've never heard or seen an example of a woman who was organically attracted to somebody with a personality like mine. 

Not sure what the preoccupation you have with celebrities, and rugby players is about.  If we all measured ourselves up them, we'd all be in same dark place you are.  But I suppose if you keep googling articles to reinforce your insecurity on how you insist you'll be alone forever, it seems to be working for you.  Consider googling "self fulfilled prophecies" instead.

Antidote:  I worked in a upscale restaurant in my early 20s.  My coworkers were for the most part very attractive.  One day a new male server showed up.  He was pasty white, receding hair line at young age, rounded shoulders and very effeminate.  Neither very physically attractive or masculine in a conventional way.  What ended up happening is, as you got to know him, he had this self confidence, sense of humor and charisma like no other.  Within weeks a few of the girls were competing for his attention.   His personality compensated for what he may have lacked in looks and it slowly transformed how we viewed him.  Ultimately he was very attractive on many levels.  

Confidence and character is attractive.   It doesn't matter what you look like.  Consider cultivating that.   

[mylolita]

1 minute ago, reinventmyself said:

Not sure what the preoccupation you have with celebrities, and rugby players is about.  If we all measured ourselves up them, we'd all be in same dark place you are.  But I suppose if you keep googling articles to reinforce your insecurity on how you insist you'll be alone forever, it seems to be working for you.  Consider googling "self fulfilled prophecies" instead.

Antidote:  I worked in a restaurant in my early 20s.  My coworkers were for the most part very attractive.  One day a new male server showed up.  He was pasty white, receding hair line at young age, rounded shoulders and very effeminate.  Neither very physically attractive or masculine in a conventional way.  What ended up happening is, as you got to know him, he had this self confidence, sense of humor and charisma like no other.  Within weeks a few some of the girls were competing for his attention.   His personality compensated for what he may have lacked in looks and it slowly transformed how we viewed him.  Ultimately he was very attractive on many levels.  

Confidence and character is attractive.   It doesn't matter what you look like.  Consider cultivating that.   

I want to second what reinvent had said here!

 

And just because you are gorgeous doesn’t mean you don’t have doubtful thoughts or feelings of inadequacy either. So summed it can be even harder! Because people like that can hold themselves up to such a standard. 
 

Plenty of beautiful people end of changing their appearances with surgery and Botox. This isn’t the act of self acceptance and confidence. They are trying to change themselves still.

 

Looks and celebrity aren’t everything. People need more than that to form a meaningful, loving connection that will last a lifetime.

 

x

[bluecastle]

3 minutes ago, reinventmyself said:

Not sure what the preoccupation you have with celebrities, and rugby players is about.  If we all measured ourselves up them, we'd all be in same dark place you are. 

Irony is, this dark place is the place where many of these celebrities live: constantly obsessing about the surface, about not measuring up, and, in the process, finding their fears fulfilled because (a) their full human spectrum goes uncultivated and (b) there is a shelf life to how long another human, be that human shallow or deep, can thrive alongside someone obsessed with such things.  

7 minutes ago, reinventmyself said:

Confidence and character is attractive. 

This. This is the juice. You can squeeze it and squeeze it and squeeze it and it never goes dry. 

[ProfessorSunflower]

18 minutes ago, bluecastle said:

You are taking an offhand remark in a director's commentary and running with it to, I'm sorry, an absurd place. A movie set, a shower scene, a gorgeous body: there was some adolescent-tinged admiration. So what? This has nothing to do with those women cheating, being willing to cheat, or confirming some hypothesis of yours. To go there is wildly audacious and self-sabotaging. 

Personal story: An ex of mine worked as a stylist. She did a shoot with an Olympic athlete known for having an extraordinary physique. After the shoot I asked if he's was mind-blowing (that sinewy torso! the wingspan of those shoulders!) in real life as he is on TV. Yes, she said. Cool, I said. No biggie.  

This attitude and outlook you have? It's not uncommon, and not at all confined to non-macho men and non-hottie women. It's insecurity, self-stoked by over-intellectualization. People tend to tire of it, find it deeply unattractive, and what happens when people get bored and thirsty? Bonds fizzle, eyes and hearts start yearning for something more substantial. Why dig your grave with the help of DVD commentaries when you're still breathing is the question. 

All in all, people will behave in ways, every day, that confirm the worst stereotypes of people. On the flip side? They behave in ways, every day, that shatter them. In between those two extremes is where the glories of life transpire: connection, disconnection, pain, pleasure, love, lust. To live in that place, fully, requires some confidence. That's different than finding ways to be confident that you can't participate in life, as you wish, because of whatever numbers you drew from the DNA lottery. 

1. These were young women, not adolescent girls. Bale wasn't even famous then.

First of all, do you think any woman would be fine with her boyfriend or husband working on the set of a film starring Salma Hayek and gathering around with other men to gawk at her? Secondly, wouldn't that be considered sexual harassment? I don't see how a bunch of women gawking at Bale is remotely acceptable. 

As for cheating, I can't imagine a bunch of people would gather around to gawk at somebody but not be willing to sleep with them. Even if they wouldn't cheat, it's likely they went home unsatisfied with their BF and thought about Bale during sex.

Do you think your ex would've been fine with you gawking at a famous attractive woman?

The other point here that many people are seeming to ignore is the aspect of personality. Rugby players are attractive not just because of their looks but also their macho, aggressive personality. It's a bloodsport, plain and simple. I don't have that personality. My worry is that any woman who dates me will be doing so because I'm the stable alternative to the dangerous and exciting men they find sexy, just like how strawberries are just my healthy alternative to ice cream.

[ProfessorSunflower]

14 minutes ago, bluecastle said:

Irony is, this dark place is the place where many of these celebrities live: constantly obsessing about the surface, about not measuring up, and, in the process, finding their fears fulfilled because (a) their full human spectrum goes uncultivated and (b) there is a shelf life to how long another human, be that human shallow or deep, can thrive alongside someone obsessed with such things.  

This. This is the juice. You can squeeze it and squeeze it and squeeze it and it never goes dry. 

Do you understand the difference between not dating somebody because one isn't attracted to them and noting dating somebody because one realizes the qualities that make them attractive also make them a bad partner?

[boltnrun]

Folks, none of this commentary and encouragement will help someone who is happy with his assessment of his life. People do what works for them. Clinging to these false beliefs is an excellent way to avoid getting into relationships where, gasp, one could possibly be hurt or abandoned.

Here the reward of not getting "hurt" is worth foregoing romantic relationships.

In other words we can't "help" someone who is determined to follow their own path.

[ProfessorSunflower]

10 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

Folks, none of this commentary and encouragement will help someone who is happy with his assessment of his life. People do what works for them. Clinging to these false beliefs is an excellent way to avoid getting into relationships where, gasp, one could possibly be hurt or abandoned.

Here the reward of not getting "hurt" is worth foregoing romantic relationships.

In other words we can't "help" someone who is determined to follow their own path.

I'm not happy at all. I wouldn't be here if I were.

The comments here actually say, almost word for word, that women stick with less attractive men because they know they can't seduce somebody like Bale. That's the reassurance I'm supposed to be happy with? 

[Jaunty]

I haven't read the whole thread.  Basically, OP, you are just parroting the fodder of Incel sites.  

Gorgeous people with awesome bodies and alluring personalities are very attractive to the opposite sex.  Get over it and get on with your own life and making the most of whatever it is you have to work with.  Forget about what women you will never know or even meet prefer.  

 

 

[Kwothe28]

2 hours ago, ProfessorSunflower said:

The women gawking at Christian Bale is a real thing that happened. I imagine at least some of them were in relationships and yet they were perfectly willing to cheat on their partners with Bale. Not to mention if men did that to a female, that would rightly be considered sexual harassment. No woman would be fine with their partner gawking at Salma Hayek, so why should I be fine with my partner doing the same?

 

But over which Christian Bale they gawk? 😆

Anyway, you are worrying about very fictional scenarios. Where your future gf/bride would have to come within vicinity of high profile celebrity, that high profile celebrity actually likes her and that they have a chance of something happening. Its probably one in a couple of million chance of that. You literally have more chance to be hit by a bus than for that to happen.

Also, gawking is not the same thing as actually doing something. You can gawk about some woman in a magazine. Heck, you can gawk about attractive coworker. Kinda innapropriate if you have somebody, but its not cheating. Actually crossing the line requires way more than just gawking. 

Your "hypothesis" comes from your belief how its not right to see somebody else as attractive. But, again, do you seriously believe you will be the most attractive thing your partner would ever encounter? That nobody else would compare? Because its a bit naive thinking. I know there is a saying about "having your eyes just for your partner" but you shouldnt expect your partner to think that nobody else is attractive. Because ofcourse somebody else is. Is more attractive, has more money, more power, under any metric there is probably somebody way better than you. However, you equate that with how partner would freely cheat. Some would, I cant argue that. However, to say how they all would just because they find somebody attractive to some metric, its way too extreme. And I am sorry, but with that kind of thinking you will not find some happiness out there when it comes to relationships.