I fear that no woman will truly like me and any woman I date will only be settling for me.

[boltnrun]

15 minutes ago, ProfessorSunflower said:

I wish I could find studies like that, it would make my day.
Again, I just have not seen any studies or examples in either real life or media that reflects anything else.

So you are just going to ignore everything else I wrote because it doesn't support your hypothesis?

At this point you are choosing this life path. If it serves you well then there's no need for any action because you're enjoying it. But if not, how about a simple Google search for more realistic points of view?

Or... here's a radical thought. How about just taking each woman as an individual and stop projecting negative viewpoints onto them?

[bluecastle]

23 minutes ago, ProfessorSunflower said:

Recently I was walking with two women friends. We passed by a rugby ground where a woman's game was going on. One friend quipped that if it were a men's game, she may stay and watch. When I asked, both said it was because rugby men are attractive. I have been depressed ever since.

Most female friends of mine have said similar things; they have expressed attraction for muscular men.

I don't see anything here to be depressed about, which is not to negate the way you feel. Still, what you are describing is humans being humans. 

On my way home, every day, I pass through a gauntlet of billboards for movies. The people on these billboards, being movie stars, are very attractive. Being that I am attracted to women, I tend to notice the attractive ones. My girlfriend, I feel safe assuming, notices the attractive men. There is, in those moments, a teeny harmless jolt of pleasure for each of us, no different from your friends watching some rugby dudes square off in a muddy field.  

Speaking of movies...

19 minutes ago, ProfessorSunflower said:

What am I supposed to make of this? What am I supposed to make of the fact that Christian Bale was sexually harassed on American Psycho by every woman who worked on set, at least some of whom were in relationships?

Say what? Did you work as a key grip on that one 20 some years ago? Did you see "every woman" behaving this way? This is, I believe, what Harvard sociologists call poppycock and what Harvard psychology professors might call catastrophic thinking, confirmation bias, and/or self-sabotage. You are speaking in reckless hyperbole (all women, all erotica...) to recklessly validate some very deep insecurities in yourself.

This is troubling stuff. Here you are, with an actual woman who seems to be showing some actual interest, and you're so far down this rabbit hole that something potentially real is already being snuffed out by your deepest fears and steadfast resolve in proving them valid. In your shoes, right now, I would see all that as a sign to get a little help in understanding the roots of all this, so you can yank them out and go about the never-certain but often-incredible business of connecting with people.  

[Rose Mosse]

No, don't give up on the woman you're seeing. People have their different types of what they feel most attracted to and that's ok and completely fine. The woman you're seeing agrees to see you because she thinks you're attractive and there's something there. 

Don't worry about what your female friends are saying. They're entitled to their opinion about who they find good looking just as you do and the next guy and the next gal. Nothing to do with you. You keep being whomever you are, bespeckled, whatever height or weight or size or colour.

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, ProfessorSunflower said:

Then why is all of the erotica written by and for women about the exact same thing? It never involves respectful nice men. It's almost always about aggressive or dangerous men.
All of the sex symbols popular with women are muscular bad boys, not nice men.
I have even included studies and pieces by psychologists in which women married to men like me express boredom and a lack of satisfaction. They say they would not have dated those men when they were younger so they have now matured and want somebody more stable, but they still feel sexually attracted to the same men they liked when they were younger. I have never heard about a woman partnered with a guy like me who was happy. 
On the set of American Psycho, Christian Bale was sexually harassed by all of the women who worked on set because of his physique. At least some of those women were in relationships, yet they were apparently willing to cheat.

What do you mean by nice? Are you looking to marry a woman who is looking to marry a celebrity or a protoype of a bad boy? Or are you just looking for excuses because it's hard to develop and maintain a committed romantic relationship even when neither person stereotypes or generalizes (as you are doing) and even when both people have their hearts and heads in the right place - are you up to the challenge? Because this kind of cop-out cycnicsm might be your way of evading being vulnerable and intimate.  

Nice as "passive" is not nice. It's being a doormat, it's self-absorbed because typically it's based mostly on people pleasing/need for approval.  Kind, thoughtful, compassionate from a position of reasonable confidence is different and to a healthy person helps the spark, enhances the spark.  

Please stop watching movies and focusing on what women fantasize about.  I drooled over my John Stamos poster in my bedroom as a teenager (he's a few years older than me )and a woman I know met him in person when she was 12 and was in heaven.  Neither she nor I wanted to marry or date John Stamos. 

I met Jeff Daniels and was a bit star struck. I was seriously involved with my boyfriend at the time (he was there when I met him) and it would never have occurred to me to cheat on my boyfriend to be with this actor I adored.  I just liked meeting him and blushing a bit.  Means nothing as to whether I was "settling".  I met Mr. Big from Sex and the City -met as in was in a group of three people and he was one of them.  I mean yes he's Mr. Big (this was over 15 years ago).  Again no I would not have dated him and yes of course it was awesome to meet him in person! I approached Mikhail Baryshnikov on a plane shortly after he was on Sex and the City.  He's short I think, by the way -he's sexy! He was not happy that I approached him -he wanted to be incognito LOL.  

I dated a couple of alpha males -meaning the stereotype you refer to above - I wrote about one above who is now married to a man.  I mean sure it was -interesting - one or two were "bad boys" -not abusive - I had that phase too.  But we were not ultimately a good match,

I am married to the man I described above.  I've never experienced "grass is greener" with him, but I have declined to date men who were objectively more handsome than him -in a societal/objective way.  He's my person, he's my match, my love. 

He's nice in the good way.  We've been together a total of 18 years give or take and never ever cheated, not even close.  You could parade whoever in front of me -I'd have no temptation.  Would I notice if an attractive man is attractive. Sure maybe.  Honestly I also notice women who look like models -not like I want to have sex but I notice.  I'm straight.    

I would not be happy, at all, with the types of men you described above -not in a marriage for sure.  Would I go on a date with a man who looked like that if I were single? I don't know- maybe? But not just based on looks.  

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, ProfessorSunflower said:

Muscular men are attractive because they convey an aggressive, masculine personality which I lack. So it is not just about their looks but also the fact that they have a different personality, and anybody who likes that personality won't like mine. I stress again that I have never heard a story of a woman partnered with somebody like me who didn't feel bored and unsatisfied.
If I may ask, how old were you when you began dating your husband?

That's not true at all - not all muscular men have a certain personality.

I started dating him when I was 28 -he was 27 I think.  At that time he was too nice -meaning he was very very shy, awkward, insecure, not pursuing his dream career yet.  But very successful in his career.  He tried too hard.  Ultimately we got engaged and broke up.  and got back together when I was 39 and he 38.  By then he had pursued his dream career, grown in confidence, we met for a friendly catch up dinner as I've described in this forum and -sparks flew.  Hit me like a ton of bricks -him too. Within 3 weeks we were back together.  He wasn't passive anymore.  He had confidence -but not arrogance- he was happy with his career, and the chemistry was awesome.  No I wasn't settling.  At all.  Yes some people assumed we were because of our ages.

We started trying to have a baby a few years later and got married.  Am I happy every day? No, neither is he - we argue and bicker at times and the pandemic has thrown us for a loop and it's hard parenting and adulting so no there are times I feel irritated, frustrated, upset. 

But I am 100% happy with my choice to marry him.  100% yes I love him so very much even when he drives me batty.  I know he feels the same.  Do I drool over him? No not regularly. I'm not so drool-worthy either.  I think he's handsome and cute when he's not humming along to commercials and I can remember how awesome it felt to take our marriage vows.

But yes we have the whole package - chemistry, spark, love, stuff in common, love for our son.  Big component of that is shared laughter and compatible sense of humor.  Plus the fact that I am Type A and he is Type B and I admire and respect him and am inspired by certain of his Type B attributes!    

Hope that answers your question. My course of true love did not run smooth.  Such is life.  

[arjumand]

I have never been remotely attracted to muscles — my actuaL physical preference is really skinny guys. Because different people are attracted to different types. One of my closest friends is an overweight woman with curly red hair. Everyone her husband ever dated looked just like her because that is his type. Your generalizations are stupid and dangerous and I think you should stop dating and get some intensive therapy because the person you are now is going to make a dreadful partner if you ever manage to find someone  with your poisonous, problematic thinking. 
 

BTW, many people DON’T marry their type. I fell for my husband — who was FAR from skinny and significantly farther since marriage — because of his personality, kindness and smarts. He was and is  a lot of fun. 

[boltnrun]

I married my ideal physical type (tall, blond, blue eyes, lanky) but guess what? We're divorced now because despite him being my ideal physical type our personalities were not suited for one another. Being compatible is much more important than physical appearance.

I'm not sure what you're looking for with this post. You seem pretty sure your hypothesis is 100% correct and that you'll never find a woman who truly loves you because such a woman doesn't exist. You're debating and disagreeing with anyone who counters your assertions.

So I guess you prefer to carry on as you have been with a cynical mindset about women and relationships. It's too bad, because it's sad that such a young man has already decided to give up on having a happy and fulfilling love relationship because that doesn't align with his belief structure.

[waffle]

11 hours ago, ProfessorSunflower said:

IIs that the best I can hope for, that some woman just decides to learn to like me?
 

Yes.  This is the stuff that lasting relationships are made from. 

[WaywardKiwi]

Firstly, I suspect you are a troll seeking to propagate some garbage philosophy rather than genuinely reflect and evolve as a person. Ironically, this is probably the least attractive quality you could have, whether for women or men. 

Secondly, there is plenty of evidence that a plurality of women prefer to fantasize about traditonally "nerdy" or "artistic" types:

https://pressroom.gleeden.com/en/married-women-fantasize-about-nerds/

I hope I am wrong, but your responses thus far are not promising.

T

[Jibralta]

1 hour ago, WaywardKiwi said:

Firstly, I suspect you are a troll

Agree. This forum attracts a lot of these types of threads. And... they seem to get the most attention!

[boltnrun]

7 minutes ago, Jibralta said:

Agree. This forum attracts a lot of these types of threads. And... they seem to get the most attention!

I think it's because we feel bad for those people who can't seem to get a break in the dating world.  We want to help! But it's also hard to feel sorry for someone who seems determined to see and think the absolute worst about others and who actively seeks out ways to confirm their hypotheses.  And who completely disregard or dismiss those who have had different experiences or points of view.

I can only conclude they are either happy to have something to complain about or they just prefer self-pity over real, positive change.

[poorlittlefish]

OP, the next time you're out in public, have a look at all the couples you see.  Is EVERY man who's with a woman muscular and macho?  I highly doubt it.  Do you think every one of these women is just settling?  Could you maybe conceive that everyone goes for different people and that looks/physical appearance is just one small part of what makes someone attractive and worth staying with?  If a guy is muscular but an absolute *rsehole, so you still think that any woman is going to want to date him?  If so, you're wrong.  I've only ever been with one muscular partner, at the age of 17 (I'm 50 now).  Does that mean I settled for everyone who came after him or could it possibly be that muscles aren't at all important?

Flip it around and consider the influence of porn on what guys might find attractive.  Do you think that EVERY man is settling unless their partner fits the porn stereotype?

You seem to have developed a very black and white mindset that doesn't allow for anyone to hold different opinions to what is and isn't attractive to you.  That is not real life and the evidence is literally in front of your face.  I would strongly urge you to talk through your insecurities and distorted thinking patterns with a therapist.

[Wiseman2]

17 hours ago, ProfessorSunflower said:

I have included studies and content produced by and for women. Am I supposed to just ignore this?

You're being brainwashed by the manosphere hate groups such as red pill etc. You're simply regurgitating that rhetoric here.

None of your writing is based on facts, science, research or data. It simply reads like people who propagate cultlike thinking posting like mindlessness zombies.

Get to a physician for an evaluation of your physical and mental health. Ask for a referral to a qualified therapist for ongoing support.

With help you can dispell some of these cognitive distortions. Once you go down the incels rabbit hole, it's difficult to think normally again without getting appropriate help for underlying mental health issues.

 

[Kwothe28]

17 hours ago, ProfessorSunflower said:

I have included studies and content produced by and for women. Am I supposed to just ignore this?

There, a real study

https://www.esquire.com/uk/life/news/a17209/women-happier-uglier-men/

😁

[ProfessorSunflower]

2 hours ago, poorlittlefish said:

OP, the next time you're out in public, have a look at all the couples you see.  Is EVERY man who's with a woman muscular and macho?  I highly doubt it.  Do you think every one of these women is just settling?  Could you maybe conceive that everyone goes for different people and that looks/physical appearance is just one small part of what makes someone attractive and worth staying with?  If a guy is muscular but an absolute *rsehole, so you still think that any woman is going to want to date him?  If so, you're wrong.  I've only ever been with one muscular partner, at the age of 17 (I'm 50 now).  Does that mean I settled for everyone who came after him or could it possibly be that muscles aren't at all important?

Flip it around and consider the influence of porn on what guys might find attractive.  Do you think that EVERY man is settling unless their partner fits the porn stereotype?

You seem to have developed a very black and white mindset that doesn't allow for anyone to hold different opinions to what is and isn't attractive to you.  That is not real life and the evidence is literally in front of your face.  I would strongly urge you to talk through your insecurities and distorted thinking patterns with a therapist.

I never said women only dated muscular men. I even pointed out that women who dated men like me still feel more attracted to muscular men. Take a look at this study: https://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/unify_uploads/files/larson pillsworth haselton 2012 plosone.pdf
Basically all of women's erotica involves a woman with a muscular guy who is my total opposite not just in appearance, but also in personality. Take Fifty Shades. In Outlander she actually cheats on her academic husband with a super large, buff caveman. 
Articles written by psychologists:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/marriage-advice_b_5666990?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS9zZWFyY2g_Y2xpZW50PW9wZXJhJnE9YXJ0aWNsZSthYm91dCt3b21lbit3aG8rbGVhdmUraHVzYmFuZHMrZm9yK2JhZCtib3lzK2FuZCt0aGVuK3JlZ3JldCtpdCZzb3VyY2VpZD1vcGVyYSZpZT1VVEYtOCZvZT1VVEYtOA&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEbHMANVYOHqiPzIsaPHnM-66NQ87u9exE1mlYBEVM0j_BAoM14eg0u5lku1gQeaSvrdmXtsiPKOjZylObykbb6mkGO6GzVMgE0Eht-HBpPpEBcSLoU3iiFgVp9DZ-h99lZSALsqDNzDgOFrDi8GUOuA-LlXmZl8A_f73K1UVDj-
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/09/magazine/does-a-more-equal-marriage-mean-less-sex.html
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/insight-therapy/201308/what-do-women-really-want

"the delicate, tentative guy who politely thinks about you and asks if this is okay or that is okay is a guy who may meet the expectations of your gender politics (treats me as an equal; is respectful of me; communicates with me) and your parents’ preferences, but he may also put you into a sexual coma—not despite these qualities, but because of them."

In every situation I have heard about in which a woman is partnered with a man like me, it is always in spite of her sexual desires i.e. "I would never have dated him when I was younger but now I want somebody more stable", and so part of her feels bored and unsatisfied.
In other words, all of the situations I know of in which a woman dates or marries a man I identify with, she still feels bored and fantasizes about men who are the opposite of me in looks and personality. Do you not understand how I feel insecure about that? The fact that some women date nerds is no more proof that they do not like muscular men than the fact that I eat strawberries is proof I would not prefer chocolate bars.

[Jibralta]

Only one of these studies is peer-reviewed. What are your thoughts on the sample size? 

[ProfessorSunflower]

16 hours ago, bluecastle said:

I don't see anything here to be depressed about, which is not to negate the way you feel. Still, what you are describing is humans being humans. 

On my way home, every day, I pass through a gauntlet of billboards for movies. The people on these billboards, being movie stars, are very attractive. Being that I am attracted to women, I tend to notice the attractive ones. My girlfriend, I feel safe assuming, notices the attractive men. There is, in those moments, a teeny harmless jolt of pleasure for each of us, no different from your friends watching some rugby dudes square off in a muddy field.  

Speaking of movies...

Say what? Did you work as a key grip on that one 20 some years ago? Did you see "every woman" behaving this way? This is, I believe, what Harvard sociologists call poppycock and what Harvard psychology professors might call catastrophic thinking, confirmation bias, and/or self-sabotage. You are speaking in reckless hyperbole (all women, all erotica...) to recklessly validate some very deep insecurities in yourself.

This is troubling stuff. Here you are, with an actual woman who seems to be showing some actual interest, and you're so far down this rabbit hole that something potentially real is already being snuffed out by your deepest fears and steadfast resolve in proving them valid. In your shoes, right now, I would see all that as a sign to get a little help in understanding the roots of all this, so you can yank them out and go about the never-certain but often-incredible business of connecting with people.  

"In the DVD commentary, co-writer and director Mary Harron says that during the first shower scene with Patrick Bateman, all of the women on-set gathered around to watch Christian Bale wash himself"

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0144084/trivia

There is a difference between quickly noticing somebody on a billboard and saying "If it were the men playing rugby, I would stay and watch."

[ProfessorSunflower]

9 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

There, a real study

https://www.esquire.com/uk/life/news/a17209/women-happier-uglier-men/

😁

This just talked about feelings of insecurity.
Is this not an actual study?
https://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/unify_uploads/files/larson pillsworth haselton 2012 plosone.pdf

[ProfessorSunflower]

14 hours ago, boltnrun said:

I married my ideal physical type (tall, blond, blue eyes, lanky) but guess what? We're divorced now because despite him being my ideal physical type our personalities were not suited for one another. Being compatible is much more important than physical appearance.

I'm not sure what you're looking for with this post. You seem pretty sure your hypothesis is 100% correct and that you'll never find a woman who truly loves you because such a woman doesn't exist. You're debating and disagreeing with anyone who counters your assertions.

So I guess you prefer to carry on as you have been with a cynical mindset about women and relationships. It's too bad, because it's sad that such a young man has already decided to give up on having a happy and fulfilling love relationship because that doesn't align with his belief structure.

My point is that all the examples I have come across of women married or dating a guy like me involves them having settled and still being attracted to more conventionally masculine men. 
Do you really not see how that can make me insecure?
"Women like bad boys now, but when they are older they will want to settle for somebody practical, so they will put stability ahead of sexiness and pick you, but they will feel bored and still fantasize about muscular men on the side".

[ProfessorSunflower]

44 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

You're being brainwashed by the manosphere hate groups such as red pill etc. You're simply regurgitating that rhetoric here.

None of your writing is based on facts, science, research or data. It simply reads like people who propagate cultlike thinking posting like mindlessness zombies.

Get to a physician for an evaluation of your physical and mental health. Ask for a referral to a qualified therapist for ongoing support.

With help you can dispell some of these cognitive distortions. Once you go down the incels rabbit hole, it's difficult to think normally again without getting appropriate help for underlying mental health issues.

 

Is this not research?
https://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/unify_uploads/files/larson pillsworth haselton 2012 plosone.pdf

[Jibralta]

Just now, ProfessorSunflower said:

Is this not research?
https://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/unify_uploads/files/larson pillsworth haselton 2012 plosone.pdf

Have you actually read this article? It's about changes in attraction during ovulation in 21-year olds who have boyfriends that aren't 'masculine.'

[ProfessorSunflower]

38 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Stop posting nonsense and spam. No one is going to click on trolling/phishing links.

Your logic is convoluted and you're here to preach/troll.

The links include an academic study and articles from HuffPo, the NYT, and Psychogy Today.

[ProfessorSunflower]

1 hour ago, Jibralta said:

Have you actually read this article? It's about changes in attraction during ovulation in 21-year olds who have boyfriends that aren't 'masculine.'

That's my point; the ones with non-masculine boyfriends became more attracted to masculine men whilst ovulating. Those with masculine boyfriends felt a stronger attraction to their partner.

I'm not masculine. So I'm worried that any woman who dates me will feel bored, because she's just compromising out of stability. 

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, ProfessorSunflower said:

I never said women only dated muscular men. I even pointed out that women who dated men like me still feel more attracted to muscular men. Take a look at this study

But so what?  Just because a person might be honest with himself or herself that in a perfect world he or she would prefer their partner to lose a few pounds (or gain muscle) or prefer their hairstyle to be different that doesn't mean the person is settling. Just because a person might be "more" physically attracted to a different body type doesn't mean the person is settling. 

Many people who are in love with their partners and also committed to their partners acknowledge these truths and they make the head and heart decision that they would never trade their partner for anyone even if they also feel attracted to other body types.  

I think settling is when a person is with someone else in a committed relationship despite having the dream of someone else or wanting a different, specific person like an ex -- where the person does not love or admire their partner and are with them for convenience, for wanting to be married at any cost. I know of very few couples where they didn't compromise on certain things (other than the really big stuff -like values, whether to have children, and for some, what religion to practice) - I don't get to live in a city where it's as easy to get around as in my former city I lived in for 43 years before I moved here.  It's really annoying and sometimes worse than annoying but my husband's career took us here.  But I don't feel I settled.  I wouldn't be more attracted to a person who could live in my former city. 

My husband has gained some pandemic weight.  I don't love it.  I prefer his pre-pandemic weight.  Until a few weeks ago I worked out in a small fitness room right near a 20 something guy over 6 feet tall with a very fit physique and a handsome face.  I mean it's a small room - if you do anything but look straight ahead there he is LOL.  He changes his t-shirt when he switches equipment and I focus on looking away to give him privacy.  I'm sure he looks great without his shirt on. 

Do I wish I were with him because he has no pandemic weight on him? Do I wish I could look at him with his shirt off and imagine what it would be like to be closer. Not in the least.  He is physically attractive.  He has what my husband doesn't right now - no extra weight and muscles.  I'm sure we could turn off the cameras in the fitness room and hook up because according to you I'm settling and therefore wish to stray. (I still go to the fitness room but I think this guy either moved out and/or is away). 

The idea is ludicrous.  I have no such thoughts despite not being blind and noticing there is a person who looks this way on the next treadmill for months now a few times a week.  Does that help explain stuff even though it's just my anecdote?

[Batya33]

Please don't assume a person is a robot who feels strong attraction and then acts on it even if he or she is married.  I might feel strong emotions about a cute baby, cute dog, or cute guy I see on the street and it has nothing to do with my love, attraction and commitment to my husband.  It's called life.  We're not blind.  My son and I were focused on two gorgeous birds yesterday morning at the bus stop - - exclaiming about them, how cute, how adorable they were following each other - doesn't mean we want to have a bird as a pet, doesn't mean we'd only get a bird who looked like that bird or we'd be bored.

An ovulating woman often is feeling more sexual desire - and she might be more attracted at that moment to a guy who looks different from her husband.  No biggie.  For half of mine and my husband's dating relationship when I was ovulating I was most strongly attracted to getting pregnant.  Laser focus.  Please don't paint all women with a broad brush.  And newsflash - the women I know who cheated -they did so because their values justified it- not because they saw a man with muscles and their husband lacked muscles. 

Want to know what's really boring - a person who speaks about stereotypes ad nauseum and spews out cliches.  That's unoriginal and boring to me.   I went on dates with men who spoke like that.  I almost married someone who was like that but back then I was desperate to be married and I ignored the red flags until I couldn't anymore -until he made such a comment that had to do with my then students who I loved.  I was too young to understand his negativity, his negative generalizations.  It's boring and it's offensive.