Considering work schedule and cleanliness diferences in a relationship's future?

[DancingFool]

Agree with bluecastle - the fun, the endorphin rush and the compatibility in other important areas and ways are not mutually exclusive. So maybe consider raising your standards and NOT settling for the first woman you have fun with. To be honest, the having fun part is easy, especially in early going. Finding someone who matches in deeper ways simply takes more patience and looking. That doesn't mean that you can't have fun with various dates in the meantime, just have the guts to walk away. KNOW that you can absolutely do better. Find that confidence in yourself. There are only millions of attractive single women out there. I promise you there is more than one who can keep house and have fun with you and rock your life in the bedroom too.

[hyden]

Almost 3 years with my GF and this is the biggest issue I have. She and her 19 year old daughter have no issues living in a cluttered messy hell with everything all over the place. Prior to moving in with her, I had a small apt where everything had its place. Was my apt always clean and orderly? Nom of course not. But I could make it that way in a couple hours if needed. We are in possession of more things that place for said things. I get resistance to storing things in the attic until needed. Mostly from the 19 year old who does nothing in the house. So, look at this as a warning. Do I love them? Yes. Am I frustrated on a regular basis? Also yes.

 

There is hope on the horizon. The 19 year old plans to move to NYC soon (her father lives there). I am confident that my GF and I can maintain a balance that wont drive both of us insane. :)

[abitbroken]

I really think there are a few things to consider. its not troubling to not like clutter, but it is if you are saying "because my ex was that way..." just because someone shares one possible trait doesn't mean they will be like your ex.

 

1) Are you a divorced dad that has your kids every other weekend and therefore have time to yourself to clean, spend at leisure, while she is the primary custodial parent for hers? If this is the case, there is a possibility that being single and wrangling kids -- things go a little bit more by the wayside.

 

2) Is her house "clean" (no smudged up walls, no filth) but just cluttered? Or is it filthy?

 

3) how old are her kids compared to yours? That will assess if the kids help or not.

 

Four weeks is too soon to tell --

 

My ex liked an almost sterile environment and no clutter. I collect things and am a bit ADD -- but it was always clean (floors washed, etc.). The problem was not the clutter. If it was, then i could have had my junk in one room -- it was not because things were not clean - i cleaned and scrubbed. But oddly, he wanted all this but left his stuff everywhere himself. So its not like he picked up after himself. he just didn't like anything that was part of "me" around - anything that I chose or liked or wanted.

[nutbrownhare]

I'd been in a relationship with a guy where I gradually realised that if we lived together I'd be continually cleaning up after him or we'd live in a pigsty. Not only that, but he would get very angry when I cleaned up - and I'm no neat freak myself. No problem - I just completely dismissed any thoughts of sharing a house with him, and enjoyed the relationship for what it was. We were actually together for 8 years. I went to visit him about a year after we'd split up, and the place was filthy. This sort of filthy: http://www.whitehouse51.com/pic/i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/08/16/article-2189288-14931A24000005DC-190_634x422.jpg

 

It only confirmed my initial decision was the right one. You need to accept people the way they are, and you can't teach a pig to sing!

[Rdunsany]

Thank you, everyone, for your great advice! It seems to split into two camps:

The "if it's worth it, you can make it work, but it will be WORK" camp and the "you're just dating and this is the time to figure out if you're right together and this doesn't seem right" camp.

I definitely see the points of both sides. Honestly, I am not sure right now what path I'll take, but it has given me a lot to think about. I am surprised at the amount of and quality of advice I've gotten here. Especially with what I, kinda, felt was just me being crazy. It's nice to know that, whichever path I choose, I am NOT being crazy to be thinking about this now.

 

Abitbroken asked a few questions I wanted to answer that might provide some additional context:

"1) Are you a divorced dad that has your kids every other weekend and therefore have time to yourself to clean, spend at leisure, while she is the primary custodial parent for hers? If this is the case, there is a possibility that being single and wrangling kids -- things go a little bit more by the wayside. "

 

No, I have 50/50 split custody with my ex-wife. The person I'm seeing has the same custody schedule. In fact, one of the things that has been working well is that our custody schedules, pretty much, match. So we both don't have the kids at the same time. So it's not a matter of me just having a lot more time.

 

"2) Is her house "clean" (no smudged up walls, no filth) but just cluttered? Or is it filthy?"

 

Yes, her house is clean but cluttered. Nothing I'd call "filthy." Again though, she has a maid that comes in once a week to help out. I'm not sure what it would look like without that and her maid comes on Wednesday, which is the same day I see her for the first time after work for the week (see custody schedule above). So I'm seeing her house at its best when I do see it.

 

" 3) how old are her kids compared to yours? That will assess if the kids help or not."

 

This is definitely something where her life is harder than mine. My kids are 6 and 10. So the 10 year old can legitimately help out with stuff and the 6 year old can do her best. Her kids are 3 and 6. So she has a 3 year old making a mess than I do not.

 

"Four weeks is too soon to tell --"

 

This is kinda where I am, right now. I definitely see where people are coming from with saying that I should break things off and, in the end, it may turn out that they're right. But I have only known her 4 weeks and I want to spend a little more time with her to figure out what the answer will be. If it is something I feel is worth working on, if it comes to that, or if it's just not worth it.

[Batya33]

I wouldn't judge it as "I wonder how it would be without a cleaning service" -she's chosen to have a cleaning service weekly so obviously she cares and has chosen to invest in a service rather than spend the time doing it herself - a legitimate choice in her case. I do think the ages of her kids makes a difference. I'm glad FWIW that you've chosen to keep seeing her.

[Wiseman2]

Agree. It has nothing to do with kids, work schedules or maids. It's just the way she is and what she's comfortable with. It's not right or wrong to live any particular way. You don't need to defend your stance or preferences.

 

What's unsettling is the incompatibility and red flags, regardless of what they are. It's 4 weeks, so you can take a wait and see approach for now. That's what dating is all about.

No, I have 50/50 split custody with my ex-wife. The person I'm seeing has the same custody schedule. she has a maid that comes in once a week to help out. I'm not sure what it would look like without that.

[abitbroken]

"2) Is her house "clean" (no smudged up walls, no filth) but just cluttered? Or is it filthy?"

 

Yes, her house is clean but cluttered. Nothing I'd call "filthy." Again though, she has a maid that comes in once a week to help out. I'm not sure what it would look like without that and her maid comes on Wednesday, which is the same day I see her for the first time after work for the week (see custody schedule above). So I'm seeing her house at its best when I do see it.

 

" 3) how old are her kids compared to yours? That will assess if the kids help or not."

 

This is definitely something where her life is harder than mine. My kids are 6 and 10. So the 10 year old can legitimately help out with stuff and the 6 year old can do her best. Her kids are 3 and 6. So she has a 3 year old making a mess than I do not.

 

"Four weeks is too soon to tell --"

 

This is kinda where I am, right now. I definitely see where people are coming from with saying that I should break things off and, in the end, it may turn out that they're right. But I have only known her 4 weeks and I want to spend a little more time with her to figure out what the answer will be. If it is something I feel is worth working on, if it comes to that, or if it's just not worth it.

 

Yeah, the three year old can't really help -- well my 3 year old niece "helps" but you have to follow behind and reclean what she helps with or clean period, because she makes more of a mess "helping". She can toss her socks in the bin when prompted -- but she isn't a big help. And 3 year olds are very needy of your time. If she has a cleaning person -- she knows its a problem.

 

 

Agree. It has nothing to do with kids, work schedules or maids. It's just the way she is and what she's comfortable with. It's not right or wrong to live any particular way. You don't need to defend your stance or preferences.

 

What's unsettling is the incompatibility and red flags, regardless of what they are. It's 4 weeks, so you can take a wait and see approach for now. That's what dating is all about.

 

I do think it has to do with the ages of the kids. My sister was always a neatnik - or i should say an over organizer -- color coded bins and all and when she had kids - things went a little to pot having two little ones. Even with a husband to help her -- the kids were at a very needy age. It got better when they were older.

[Wiseman2]

Next time, you have a date, Netflix and chill with "The Odd Couple". It doesn't matter what anyone's deal breakers are. What matters is are you comfortable with this person without changing them?

she's aware of it and is not happy with it. She was also shocked when she came to my house and asked how I kept it so clean

[Capricorn3]

My concern would be the fact that she already HAS a weekly cleaning service and yet her place is still a wreck! OP, the writing is on the wall as clear as day. She will NOT change. Only one month in and so many red flags all over the place. You two are incompatible (imo). You should heed the warning flags before you invest too much time.

[Batya33]

My concern would be the fact that she already HAS a weekly cleaning service and yet her place is still a wreck! OP, the writing is on the wall as clear as day. She will NOT change. Only one month in and so many red flags all over the place. You two are incompatible (imo). You should heed the warning flags before you invest too much time.

 

My cleaning service does not declutter. We declutter so they can clean (i.e. pick up anything from the floor and put papers away from our telework, etc.) They will throw away obvious trash -a stray paper towel on the counter - but otherwise they only take out the bagged garbage/recyclables. Ours would do our laundry if we wanted but we do that ourselves. So yes, she should maintain what they do in between -i.e. clean floors, bathrooms, etc.

[Wiseman2]

Agree! It's not about tidy homes, it's about deal-breakers only 1 mo. in. In fact it's good you are observing what you find potential red flags rather than thinking she will change or rationalize, only to get in deeper after the rosy glow and find that you just can't do it. It better than trying to force-fit things which is invariably a disaster.

 

You have the right to whatever deal-breakers you see fit. It's not a debate about housekeeping, but compatibility in general.

She will NOT change. Only one month in and so many red flags all over the place. You two are incompatible (imo). You should heed the warning flags before you invest too much time.

[Batya33]

Agree! It's not about tidy homes, it's about deal-breakers only 1 mo. in. In fact it's good you are observing what you find potential red flags rather than thinking she will change or rationalize, only to get in deeper after the rosy glow and find that you just can't do it. It better than trying to force-fit things which is invariably a disaster.

 

You have the right to whatever deal-breakers you see fit. It's not a debate about housekeeping, but compatibility in general.

 

Yes but it's how you label it -if for him it is a "red" flag that she's not good at decluttering/keeping her clothing/papers folded and put away -that's fine if it's a red flag to him. But there's a whole spectrum of what is a dealbreaker and what people can live with. And I think it's unfair to assume people can't make changes (with few exceptions -meaning when it comes to actual addictions they "can" but obviously that is much much more difficult). Over the years my husband is more timely and neater, I close jars and cabinet doors and I act in a calmer way. We got married in our 40s and didn't really live with anyone prior to that (not in any official way) - and we changed.

[Seraphim]

Some people change and some don’t. When my husband lived at home he was a neatest neetnick on the planet because he would’ve been killed otherwise . At work his cubicle is the cleanest thing around . At home he’s a pig fest which I am forever picking up after . That has never changed in the 26 years I’ve lived with him, ever . It is like a subconscious rebellion against his parents . He’s a wonderful man don’t get me wrong but he’s like a major kit explosion . And he doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with it and he doesn’t care to change . And yet he came from the most OCD people on the planet .

[Batya33]

Some people change and some don’t. When my husband lived at home he was a neatest neetnick on the planet because he would’ve been killed otherwise . At work his cubicle is the cleanest thing around . At home he’s a pig fest which I am forever picking up after . That has never changed in the 26 years I’ve lived with him, ever . It is like a subconscious rebellion against his parents . He’s a wonderful man don’t get me wrong but he’s like a major kit explosion . And he doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with it and he doesn’t care to change . And yet he came from the most OCD people on the planet .

 

Completely agree. I just disagree with "can't change" or "won't ever change" especially if it that opinion is based on the person's age. It depends.

[Rdunsany]

So, to me, the question becomes: is this a dealbreaker for me. It's definitely concerning (which is why I'm here). It's definitely something I am considering when I think if we have a future together, but dealbreaker? I'm not sure yet.

 

Part of it may be that I do see that she's trying to better her life. She has a cleaning service. She has notes all around the house on things to do to be a better parent. She actively thinks about her career choices and what it has meant for her life and how that affects her home life. I don't actually believe that she is just content with how things are in her life and has no desire to change. And yes, having younger kids is hard. My kids were 2 and 6 when my ex-wife and I split. My house was *definitely* not as clean then as it is now. Was it tidier than hers is now? Yes, but in some ways not as nice? I was building a new life and there was a lot of flux in the house in ways of how nice my furniture and things were, but the house was usually tidy.

 

Plus, clutter is more iffy than filth. Filth is definitely a dealbreaker. If I walked into my ex-wife's house as someone I just met on a date, I would turn right back around. But clutter? I don't know. At the same time, I have 2 kids, she has 2 kids. 4 kids in a household where one party isn't dedicated to keeping a tidy house would be madness. But would it be like that? I think it's still too early to tell.

 

I definitely realize there is an advantage to breaking things off at the sign of red flags, especially early on, when it'll be much easier than later, when both parties are more invested. But I also don't want to breaks things off early when maybe it could work out.

[abitbroken]

in a household where one party isn't dedicated to keeping a tidy house would be madness. But would it be like that? I think it's still too early to tell.

 

 

A husband or wife is your partner -- they are not an employee. A big killer of marriages is that everything MUST be 50-50. My brother does 80% of the cooking in the household. His wife hates cooking, is not good at it. He likes to cook. On nights when he works late, she throws together a sandwich or gets drive thru. If he said "i want someone like me who cooks" he would be single. On the other hand, she is all about finances. And her job provides the insurance while his job does not. My brother has kept every toy he has ever bought with his own money and she is a minimalist. So he has a man cave for all of the toys that would have been a "Dealbreaker" to some people. But the main parts of the house are more minimalist. Actually, she was minimalist until they had kids. Now there are toys everywhere.

 

If you had a household with 4 kids in it - it will be a few years down the road. If you are more conscientious about cleaning and the only thing standing between the love of your life and you was that "she is not as clean as me" -- everything else was great -- maybe its you who dons your camp counselor hat on saturday mornings and gets the kids hustling on their rooms, their toys, and helping sweep. My parents have been married 50 years and dad is a better "housekeeper" than mom. But mom is better at other things than dad is, also.

 

I am not saying she is the one --- of course, but you admit yourself when your kids were smaller, your house was not what it is now.

[Batya33]

in a household where one party isn't dedicated to keeping a tidy house would be madness. But would it be like that? I think it's still too early to tell.

 

 

A husband or wife is your partner -- they are not an employee. A big killer of marriages is that everything MUST be 50-50. My brother does 80% of the cooking in the household. His wife hates cooking, is not good at it. He likes to cook. On nights when he works late, she throws together a sandwich or gets drive thru. If he said "i want someone like me who cooks" he would be single. On the other hand, she is all about finances. And her job provides the insurance while his job does not. My brother has kept every toy he has ever bought with his own money and she is a minimalist. So he has a man cave for all of the toys that would have been a "Dealbreaker" to some people. But the main parts of the house are more minimalist. Actually, she was minimalist until they had kids. Now there are toys everywhere.

 

If you had a household with 4 kids in it - it will be a few years down the road. If you are more conscientious about cleaning and the only thing standing between the love of your life and you was that "she is not as clean as me" -- everything else was great -- maybe its you who dons your camp counselor hat on saturday mornings and gets the kids hustling on their rooms, their toys, and helping sweep. My parents have been married 50 years and dad is a better "housekeeper" than mom. But mom is better at other things than dad is, also.

 

I am not saying she is the one --- of course, but you admit yourself when your kids were smaller, your house was not what it is now.

 

Great point. We have that too in our marriage.

[Wiseman2]

Take a wait and see approach, since you are on the fence about whether this is an issue or not.

 

Does she think of herself as a "work in progress"? What does she feel is missing or wrong with her life?

 

Where is her ex/the kids' dad? How much is he in the picture besides the 50/50 custody? Does he pay child support?

 

She seems to being doing ok financially if she can afford a cleaning service. What is her work situation like besides the schedule and lack of benefits? Is her home, car etc in decent repair? Is she disorganized in other areas?

I do see that she's trying to better her life. She has a cleaning service. She has notes all around the house on things to do to be a better parent. She actively thinks about her career choices and what it has meant for her life and how that affects her home life.

[tattoobunnie]

Okay, chiming again. So now that my hubby works in the city (NYC), sometimes he's doesn't get home until 9:00pm, after he's been gone since 5:30 am.

 

So on Monday, I made the kids lunch for school, made them breakfast. Dropped them off at neighbors for school, then pre-school for the little one. Worked at my job all day. Then, picked them up in their aftercare programs (separate schools). Go home, start cooking, putting away dishes from last night. Feed the kids, myself. Do homework with the eldest. Bath them. Clean the dishes. Then, put the eldest to bed. Husband finally comes from exhausted. I then, get things prepared for their lunch the next day. Then, put the little one to bed. I didn't get a chance to sit for 4-1/2 hours. My house; total wreck with toys and some clutter. And I'm a very clean person, but good grief, who the F-ed has time with little kids to keep the house spotless????!!!!! Before kids, I clean, vacuumed once a week, and also did my nails, and had time to hit the gym 3 to 4 times a week. Sometimes, you just have to sacrifice when you have little ones.

 

So, you've got amazing sex, meshing personalities, and love being around each other? And it's only clutter, not filth? You need to figure out what your deal breaker is. Just keep in mind, a spotless house could also mean a mom who's a helicopter parent that won't let kids do anything, and constantly Purell's their hands, with no sense of adventure and is a dead fish when you have sex (just lays there). Maybe you should date other people if the fact she isn't so clean bothering you.

 

P.S. On weekends, I am busy smelling roses with my kids and hubby. I love a clean home, but I'd rather spend quality time with them. Drastic deep cleans are reserved when company is coming.

[Rdunsany]

>Take a wait and see approach, since you are on the fence about whether this is an issue or not.

 

That's definitely where I am now. I'm not going to ignore that there are potential issues for me, but since I'm not sure, I'd like to see how it all goes. It may seem like I'm griping or complaining here, but I actually do really like her, a lot. It's why I am even thinking about all these long term things so early on. But I'm trying to balance those rush of new relationship feelings with pramatism. I'm not done in the past, to my own detriment.

 

>Does she think of herself as a "work in progress"? What does she feel is missing or wrong with her life?

 

I think she does view herself as a work in progress. As I mentioned, I've seen lots of signs that she's working to improve her life: making new friends, thinking of ways she can be a better parent to her kids, trying to build this post-divorce life. She's a little more recent in that than I am. I've been divorced 4, almost 5 years. She's been divorced about a year and a half.

 

>Where is her ex/the kids' dad? How much is he in the picture besides the 50/50 custody? Does he pay child support?

 

The ex-husband does pay her court ordered child support and has 50/50 custody. He is involved as a co-parent, but their divorce was not pretty or amicable. So he's not in the picture too much besides having the kids half the time. As an example: the last guy she seriously dated got to the point of meeting the kids, but never meeting the ex-husband.

 

>She seems to being doing ok financially if she can afford a cleaning service. What is her >work situation like besides the schedule and lack of benefits? Is her home, car etc in decent repair? Is she disorganized in other areas?

 

She is doing okay financially. Her job doesn't get a huge paycheck, but between that and child support she's able to save and seems financially responsible. Someone who was a financial mess would also be a dealbreaker for me, but so far I have no worries there. For her work, so she works at a high end hair salon. The work she does is actually pretty amazing. But it means no paid days off, no health benefits, and her pay is dictated by how many clients she has in a given week, so it fluctuates. I work a standard 9-5 with really good benefits and paid time off and all that.

 

Her car is fine. It's messy, but I can get past that much easier. Kids can make a huge mess of a car pretty quickly . My current car is clean, but my last car, which I had when my kids were the same age as hers, got pretty torn up by the kids. I get that you're asking if I've seen other behavior that would lead me to believe the messiness is systematic, but the straight answer is that we've just not been going out long enough for me to tell yet.

[Batya33]

Okay, chiming again. So now that my hubby works in the city (NYC), sometimes he's doesn't get home until 9:00pm, after he's been gone since 5:30 am.

 

So on Monday, I made the kids lunch for school, made them breakfast. Dropped them off at neighbors for school, then pre-school for the little one. Worked at my job all day. Then, picked them up in their aftercare programs (separate schools). Go home, start cooking, putting away dishes from last night. Feed the kids, myself. Do homework with the eldest. Bath them. Clean the dishes. Then, put the eldest to bed. Husband finally comes from exhausted. I then, get things prepared for their lunch the next day. Then, put the little one to bed. I didn't get a chance to sit for 4-1/2 hours. My house; total wreck with toys and some clutter. And I'm a very clean person, but good grief, who the F-ed has time with little kids to keep the house spotless????!!!!! Before kids, I clean, vacuumed once a week, and also did my nails, and had time to hit the gym 3 to 4 times a week. Sometimes, you just have to sacrifice when you have little ones.

 

So, you've got amazing sex, meshing personalities, and love being around each other? And it's only clutter, not filth? You need to figure out what your deal breaker is. Just keep in mind, a spotless house could also mean a mom who's a helicopter parent that won't let kids do anything, and constantly Purell's their hands, with no sense of adventure and is a dead fish when you have sex (just lays there). Maybe you should date other people if the fact she isn't so clean bothering you.

 

P.S. On weekends, I am busy smelling roses with my kids and hubby. I love a clean home, but I'd rather spend quality time with them. Drastic deep cleans are reserved when company is coming.

 

same all the same except before I had kids I worked many more hours than I do now so I still didn't have the time (or the inclination, after working those crazy hours) to keep things tidy. And now with a 6am alarm I also prep lunch and breakfast the night before, after my son goes to sleep. I would balance it just like tattoobunnie does but that's just me.

[Rdunsany]

To: tattoobunnie - You definitely have my admiration for keeping that sort of schedule going. I lived in NYC for a number of years with my (now ex)wife. I actually worked a very similar schedule to your husband. Not out quite as early in the morning, but out later in the evening. It was actually the birth of our first child that got us to move out of the city. Raising a kid in the city is HARD. Raising one where one parent works crazy hours, doubly-so. You have my respect for being able to do it.

 

I should say that my house is *not* spotless. I've tried to be clear and hope I have been. Those deep cleaning stuff (washing baseboards, walls, etc) rarely get done. And really, I don't spend a ton of time each day cleaning. Also, I don't have the kids half the time (neither does the girl I'm seeing), so what ends up happening is that I reset the house when the kids aren't there and then, when they are, it's just maintaining, which really isn't that bad. But you are right, we have a LOT going well for us right now and I'm not looking to give up just based on this one thing.

[Rdunsany]

Update: Hello all, I just wanted to let folks here know that I'm still dating this person, though I don't know if it'll last. We have enormous amounts of chemistry and, because of this, I did decide to accept the difference in cleanliness as being something I could work with. I am a bit worried by a statement she made about issues she had with her ex-husband, who wanted house stuff done on "his schedule" and that if "he wanted [her] to do it, he'd have to wait to do it on [her] schedule". I know it's super unfair to compare, but this is the exact line my ex-wife used to do as why she didn't clean up.

 

I do also continue to worry about the schedule thing too. Last weekend we were together, there was an event I wanted to go to on Friday, forgetting that she worked. Then, this coming weekend, when we'll be together again, I found an event on Saturday at noon that I wanted to go to with her. Again, she's working. Sunday is her day off, but she gets the kids back that day, so truly we have no full days off together, unless one of us takes a day off of work (which only I can do easily, as I get paid time off and she'd just have to take the hit in her paycheck).

 

Lastly, a thing has come up that's been kind of bothering me, though I feel that this is more on me than on her. So, she is friends with her ex-boyfriend (the only one between her ex-husband and myself). My ex-gf stayed friends with her ex-husband when we were together and it was always a source of stress in the relationship. Since her ex-bf has met the kids, he sometimes comes over to help her out with the kids when she needs to get something done. As a fellow single parent, I completely understand this need for help, but it being her ex-bf bothers me.

[Batya33]

So a couple of things. I would not be comfortable at all having the ex-bf around her kids/helping out unless he truly has moved on. Does she pay him for this? It's just a weird dynamic and I can see it becoming more of an issue if you two get more serious.

 

I reluctantly agree with her on the housework. It is one reason why I often don't ask my husband for help. He wouldn't be crass and say "it has to be on my schedule" but in reality, unless I also told him it was a time sensitive thing, it would be on his schedule . And I don't want to go to bed with dirty dishes in the sink. If I asked him to clean up in the kitchen at night he would but my sense is I'd wake up to crumbs on the counter/dishes still in the sink, etc. I fully own that I like the kitchen a certain way -my way- when I go to sleep because very often mornings are rushed and I need everything spartan and ready to go. And typically I am not a neat person at all (clean, not neat though) -but in this way I am. So I see both sides.

 

I do think the scheduling will be very challenging given her work/kids schedule. Sorry!