Are these huge red flags?

[Jibralta]

It’s like you are ignoring each and every one of our posts, dismissing what we are saying, which in most cases comes from experience and good common sense, and instead interjecting your own version of his behavior and events.

 

She actually ignores her own observations and insights as well. In almost every one of her posts, she astutely identifies potential problems. Then she spends the rest of the post convincing herself that her observation wasn't correct. Take, for example, her recent post where she learned that he was still in contact with his ex, and where he talked on and on about himself without listening to anything that she had to say.

[Batya33]

I think it's just that the OP is desperate for what she sees as male attention to validate her self-worth so anything written that is inconsistent with that will be ignored.

[Alex39]

I know what you are all saying. I struggle with this every day. I do seek my self worth in what others think of me and treat me. I've been trying to work on this heavily. I'm trying to be better. See I wasn't always like this. Years ago, when I was in college, I was confident, happy, and secure in myself and my life. I met this man in school. Lets call him Kyle. I really liked him. He checked off a lot of the things I looked for in a guy, smart, cute, witty, talented, etc...and we had a lot of the same values and were raised the same way. He was definitely someone I could bring home to mom and dad and I knew they would like him.

 

We started talking more and more. We started kissing and cuddling, leading to sleepovers at his dorm, no sex, just sleeping, and spending lots of time together. But for whatever reason, I kept feeling like it wasn't enough. We were dating some of the time, but then not other times. I felt in limbo. Sometimes I would start saying things to him about it, and my feelings and about certain things he did that I did not like. I then became his victim. He was a master manipulator and he destroyed me. As soon as I would say anything, he would manipulate me out of thinking it. I would leave conversations apologizing to him for saying anything and upsetting him. Unbeknownst to me, this guy does this to a lot of people, even his own family. He sucked me in, made me feel good, then bad, and then justified it by manipulating me, that he was this good person and how dare I think anything less of him. I ended up beating myself up over things that I did and said to him, instead of being angry at him. It started this terrible cycle of self blaming and second guessing every little thing I did. I walked on eggshells and wanted him to like me so much that I lost my personality and myself. I hid some of who I was and was a very stripped down version of myself, because I was afraid he wouldn't like the real me. It was a vicious cycle. He led me to having a bout of deep depression. I cried every day. I found it hard to cope with making decisions, because I was second guessed everything. He was in my life off and on for three years. Mostly off. 2016 was when I finally called it quits and luckily he moved away making it easier for him to not mess with my mind. Even at the very end he was manipulating me. I was a lot more aware of how he was and smarter at the end, and I wasn't taking his lies and exaggerations anymore. I was not the bad person. I remember him not liking that I was getting smart at the end. And he even stooped low and started calling me hurtful things. Saying I was this entitled and self centered person. He knew that would kill me inside. All to take the heat off of him.

 

I have never ever been the same again. I want nothing to do with him or anyone like him ever ever again. This was so bad, lets just say what this new guy is doing makes him look like a saint compared to Kyle.

 

I started seeing a counselor last year to help me regain my sense of self. I sometimes get freaked out that one little sign of something wrong in a guy, immediately makes them like Kyle. But its hurting me finding a man, because not every guy is bad like that. I struggle between accepting a man's faults, as no man or myself is perfect, and I have baggage and issues too, and immediately thinking they are bad, because of how Kyle was.

 

I'm giving this guy the benefit of the doubt, because I don't think it was entirely his fault we didn't make plans and meet yet. I was very unavailable this week, and he had a wedding. The him talking to his ex did make me curious. I don't think he meant any harm by sending me all pictures of his dog with her dog. I think he was enthusiastic to show me because it was really cute and he loves the dogs. He was excited. I think I overreacted about the ex thing. Him sending me that stuff wasn't about her. I like him, so I immediately clued in on that and started freaking out.

 

But to me, if he has a working relationship with her, like a divorced couple, I think I can handle that as it has nothing to do with me, as we haven't even met yet. Maybe if he and I were dating, and I thought the situation impacted me in a negative way, then I would sit and talk with him about what I didn't like and what made me feel not good. To me, he clearly wants to move on, he's on match.com and he got his own apartment and puppy. Seems like he's trying to start over. For all I know, she brings the dog over every Wednesday, drops it off for him to see it, and thats it. I don't know their situation and it isn't in me to judge. He could easily judge me for my time with Kyle. Some people do.

 

He has never not answered my text messages, and yeah sometimes he will stop and then answer me a while later, but he always acknowledges me and what we were talking about and never ignores anything. We aren't dating, and he doesn't owe me anything yet.

 

Today he has been messaging me all day while he is at the wedding. Telling me stuff about it where he is. We were joking and it was all positive. To me, if he is texting me at a wedding, then he is thinking about me while he is there. Not a bad thing. He's messaged me all while he was at the church and then some at the reception. At one point I was trying to send him this funny picture of something I saw for his dog, but my phone was acting up. Eventually I just gave up and he begged me just to tell him what it was about. I told him, but told him the picture was funnier. He then said "You are going to have to show me that next week."

 

I was a little surprised. He then said "What day do you want to do this?"

 

I said "How about Thursday."

 

He said "Okay, would it be okay with you if I called you on the phone some night and we can confirm plans that way?"

 

I said sure thing.

 

Doesn't seem like a bad guy. I will have to gauge that when I meet him for myself.

[katrina1980]

amkxoxo if you feel good about it, and him, that is all that matters, really. Your just going to have to go for it and see how it pans out. Maybe he is insecure and was s*** testing you, doing that push/pull thing, your still around so you passed the s*** test, he now feels secure that you like him and is ready to meet you.

 

Don't know what made me think of this maybe it is all the posts I have read talking about it. The s*** testing, the push pull to test interest or increase interest. It's possible. Give yourself a deadline. If he breaks next week's date, then rethink it. Don't tolerate s*** testing assuming that's what he's doing.

 

I still think the 2 FB accounts, one showing him engaged, is weird though. Don't know about that one. I guess your just going to have to trust him, as best as you can, without knowing him. And keep your feet on the ground, try not to get too swept up in all the attention.

[Batya33]

Completely agree that if he breaks the plan to meet in person next Thursday for other than a life and death emergency you can confirm, then move on - and do not let yourself indulge in how he lead you on or "used" you. He is not, and he didn't. He told you enough about himself to know that there are major red flags right off the bat -your choice to keep interacting with him.

The fact that he is texting you has nothing to do with his level of interest in meeting you for any romantic purpose, let alone dating you. Don't tell yourself that. It's irrelevant to any of those things. He's (so far) a stranger for all practical purposes, including safety, who is interested in texting back and forth. So far he hasn't confirmed a time to meet in person. If he does and he shows up, all that means is he is interested in meeting you to see if in the future you should go on an actual date. Nothing more. And if he declines to meet you or doesn't ask you out on a date, means nothing personal about you unless you do something to offend him (which you won't).

[katrina1980]

Completely agree that if he breaks the plan to meet in person next Thursday for other than a life and death emergency you can confirm, then move on - and do not let yourself indulge in how he lead you on or "used" you. He is not, and he didn't. He told you enough about himself to know that there are major red flags right off the bat -your choice to keep interacting with him.

The fact that he is texting you has nothing to do with his level of interest in meeting you for any romantic purpose, let alone dating you. Don't tell yourself that. It's irrelevant to any of those things. He's (so far) a stranger for all practical purposes, including safety, who is interested in texting back and forth. So far he hasn't confirmed a time to meet in person. If he does and he shows up, all that means is he is interested in meeting you to see if in the future you should go on an actual date. Nothing more. And if he declines to meet you or doesn't ask you out on a date, means nothing personal about you unless you do something to offend him (which you won't).

 

To me, it seems like they have developed a nice rapport despite all the back and forth so in that respect there IS interest otherwise I don't think either one would have continued texting each other. When I on line dated I knew quickly about a guy through texting, and would develop at least some interest based on that, or not, how open he was, how comfortable I felt talking to him, or not, etc. I dropped out from more texting conversations due to disinterest on my part more than not. But even when those conversations and the rapport was good, it's true you don't know know a person or how you will truly feel until you meet up in 'real' life.

 

Like many people I did on a few occasions allow myself to get too emotionally involved and was disappointed when we met. But it was not a big deal when that happened, just another experience to learn and evolve from (Buddhist philosophy amkxoxo I hope this is your attitude too.

 

I think that he expressed interest in talking on phone is a step forward. Did you set a time to do that? I hope he stays true to his word and calls. Like I said before, he could have been playing a game at first due to insecurity, the push-pull (give attention, take it away, give it again, take away) and so on and so forth. Many people swear by it, I don't but for some it works to increase interest or what they think is interest. People often confuse uncertainty and that anxious feeling with 'butterflies' and think because of that they are interested. I don't like testing games but many people (women too!) play them so important to be aware.

 

Not saying that is what he was doing, maybe he 'was' truly busy or is just a flake OR is just 'playing' you, your just going to have to wait, get to know him further and see how it pans out.

[Batya33]

Right now all we know is that he is interested in chatting back and forth - I encountered many people who wanted to limit it to that, sometimes so they could tell themselves they were trying to date (not). He's shown little interest in actually meeting in person based on his actions. If he confirms a time/place and shows up that will show interest in meeting her in person and in potentially taking her on a date in the future. I think she's shown that she gets way too attached through texting and is getting way ahead of herself so I don't think she is prepared to take it in stride should he fail to confirm a time/place to meet in person.

 

For me the extent of "learning" from chatting back and forth was not worth the wasted time. My goal was marriage and family, not to learn from strangers who wanted to be chat buddies who I first contacted through a dating site. I had enough friends and online friends already. The OP says she wants a relationship. Right now she is not behaving like she wants one because she is chatting at length with someone who so far has shown more red flags than interest in actually meeting in person.

[katrina1980]

I agree with you Batya. Maybe interest was poor choice of word how about 'intrigued'? That is all it can be at this point. And for people like OP, who admits to having low self esteem and low self worth, all the back and forth will increase the intrigue, making him seem mysterious and somewhat unattainable, which we know from her past posts she responds to. She complains but it must intrigue her on some level otherwise she would quickly cut it off, but doesn't.

 

I think people react to texting and chatting on line differently. For you, it doesn't phase you, you need to meet in person. Not everyone reacts that way. I think I talked about this before but it may have been a different forum. But one of my employees fell in love with a man on line, he lives in Switzweland and we live in the Pacific Northwest (Washington State).

 

They chatted on line and texted for nine months, she fell in love with him before ever meeting him. They finally met in person and that was IT. Traveled back and forth for awhile, they are now engaged to be married and she is moving to Switzerland to live with him. I have met him, he is a great guy.

 

I realize this is not the norm, but it can and does happen that way sometimes.

[faraday]

@prajna the difference is...they had a reason it was hard to meet. This guy the OP is talking to...lives in her city...there's no reason to wait months to meet.

 

It's also pretty risky waiting to meet...you waste a lot of time.

[Batya33]

I agree with you Batya. Maybe interest was poor choice of word how about 'intrigued'? That is all it can be at this point. And for people like OP, who admits to having low self esteem and low self worth, all the back and forth will increase the intrigue, making him seem mysterious and somewhat unattainable, which we know from her past posts she responds to. She complains but it must intrigue her on some level otherwise she would quickly cut it off, but doesn't.

 

I think people react to texting and chatting on line differently. For you, it doesn't phase you, you need to meet in person. Not everyone reacts that way. I think I talked about this before but it may have been a different forum. But one of my employees fell in love with a man on line, he lives in Switzweland and we live in the Pacific Northwest (Washington State).

 

They chatted on line and texted for nine months, she fell in love with him before ever meeting him. They finally met in person and that was IT. Traveled back and forth for awhile, they are now engaged to be married and she is moving to Switzerland to live with him. I have met him, he is a great guy.

 

I realize this is not the norm, but it can and does happen that way sometimes.

 

It can but not when the woman reacts like the OP does and not when they live in the same city where there's really no excuse.

 

I think people move towards pleasure and away from pain. I get the sense that she enjoys the thrill of the chase -the "butterflies" as she put it more than the real life nitty gritty of a relationship, maybe because she's scared she won't measure up so this is much safer, especially since he's probably still engaged.

[katrina1980]

@prajna the difference is...they had a reason it was hard to meet. This guy the OP is talking to...lives in her city...there's no reason to wait months to meet.

 

It's also pretty risky waiting to meet...you waste a lot of time.

 

I realize that I was only addressing the point that some people can form a connection through on line or texting, whether they live far away or close by. My employee did. I have read stories that other people have as well.

 

Agree that in OP's case it is bs he has not been able to meet her yet. Even a 15 coffee date, like I said he is either playing games, a flake, bored, needs an ego boost, it could be anything including being very insecure and testing her. But as long as he continues being nice and giving her attention, even if intermittent, she will continue on so she just needs to go for it and let what will be, be.

 

As a side thought, I don't think she comes here for advice since she never follows it, more as bouncing her thoughts and feelings around. It doesn't sound like she has many friends so she comes here to express thoughts and vent. She is always going to do what she wants to do regardless of what she reads here. That is okay, it is how we learn. By making mistakes and learning from them and moving forward (more Buddhist philosophy).

[Batya33]

She might have a lot of friends but they're not giving her helpful input. Yes people can connect through texting. Yes it is extremely rare -and thus mostly a waste of time -to text a lot before meeting or to text with someone who is far away and can't meet regularly or who is unavailable like the person the OP is texting with. My best guess is that he might make an actual plan to meet her but he will flake.

[katrina1980]

My best guess is that he might make an actual plan to meet her but he will flake.

 

My instincts say same but I hope for her sake, my instinct is wrong this time.

[katrina1980]

 

I get the sense that she enjoys the thrill of the chase -the "butterflies" as she put it more than the real life nitty gritty of a relationship, maybe because she's scared she won't measure up so this is much safer, especially since he's probably still engaged.

 

Agree with you. I mentioned this to her and she denied all the way, but her history, and currently with this guy, indicate something else is going on.

[Alex39]

So last night I told you guys that he texted "What day do you want to do this?"

 

I said "How about Thursday."

 

He said "Okay, would it be okay with you if I called you on the phone some night and we can confirm plans that way?"

 

I said sure thing.

 

He was still at the wedding reception and he told me he was drinking.

 

Later in the night he sends me

 

"Hi. I kinda like you. I hope you text me back. I promise I really mean it."

 

I was a little shocked. Figured he was drunk texting. I do it sometimes too. Then I just respond with "Hiiii" I didn't know what else to say.

 

He sends "Hi, haha. If I call you right now, I can't confirm plans. I've been drinking."

 

The he says "But I'd really just enjoy talking to you."

 

I said "I'd enjoy it too."

 

He said "You would?"

 

I said "Yes."

 

He says "Please don't judge me. I drank a bit at the wedding."

 

I said "Are you drunk?"

 

He says "Just a little bit."

 

He follows up with "Is that a problem at all?"

 

I say it isn't.

 

Then I add "You want to talk to me, right now?"

 

He says "Yes."

 

Then he calls me on the phone.

 

He's pretty coherent, just a bit giggly. I get drunk like that too. We chat, laugh a lot, and he tells me multiple times how "you sound really pretty."

 

He tells me he went to the wedding with his guy roommate and his family was there too. He and his guy roommate had been drinking and were watching super hero movies and sobering up.

 

He tells me that he does want to see me and make plans and how he will have to call or text me tomorrow (now today) to make them with me. I say okay. The conversation is short, but overall good, especially since he was semi drunk.

 

This morning I get texts from him saying "Oh my god. I drunk dialed you. "

 

I confirmed, that yes he did.

 

He asks "did i say anything exciting."

 

I lead him on and say "Maybe"

 

He laughs, and says "Oh man."

 

I think he knows what he said.

 

He asks what I am doing today. So I tell him.

 

He seems very concerned about his behavior. He says "I swear I don't do that often at all."

 

I have no judgement. I used to drunk text and call my ex when we were together. He loved it. He said he loved it, because he knew I was thinking about him even when I was drunk.

 

I tell him how I don't judge him, and I've done it myself before.

 

He then says "Well next time you do it, you know what number to call." (Meaning his.)

 

He asks more about what I am doing today and keeps asking me where my friends and are and how my day is. Very nice. Seems very interested in me.

 

I say something funny about his drunken conversation with me. He says "Totally awesome first impression on the phone. I swear to you, I'm a very responsible person."

 

I tell him it is okay, and that he was fine on the phone, but that next time he wants to call me, maybe he can do it sober, so we can really talk.

 

Then he asks "what are you doing tomorrow?"

 

I feel bad, because I already made plans with my girl friends.

 

I tell him "Well my friends mentioned going hiking together, still waiting for confirmation on that."

 

He then says "Oh well, if it doesn't pan out, I could meet you there and go with you."

 

My friends did confirm, and I did make the plans with them beforehand. He asked me last minute. They didn't.

 

I then tell him "My girl friends really want to go for sure, but I would really like to plan something with you very soon."

 

I have yet to hear back from him. I am just assuming he's busy, which is fine. I feel bad. I would have loved to go with him, but he didn't really ask me for sure until late Saturday. I consulted my best friends boyfriend for advice on the matter, since he's a guy. He said he thinks it would have been okay for me to go, since the guy seems to like me. My girl friends said if I really wanted to go, that they really didn't care. But my friends boyfriend also advised that it's better to not look too available to him, and that I did have plans, and there is nothing wrong with saying it. If he asked me a bit earlier, that I would have been free. He also advised, that if he really likes me, he will want to follow up with another plan to pin me down soon even if tomorrow doesn't work. He said he will pick another day and plan with you, if he wants to see you and get to know you.

 

I'm hoping I did the right thing. I do really want to meet him in person. Now I'm regretting not going with him. But I also didn't want to seem too available or easy for plans, like I ditched my friends for him at the last minute, so I'm desperate.

 

I also get notified on match.com when someone looks at my profile. He looks at my profile like every day practically. So funny. I don't know why.

[Batya33]

I think it was fine not to accept last minute plans. I don't think the "don't appear too available " is the right approach here because you've made yourself available to text basically 24/7 so he knows that you're very available to spend that kind of time with him. I do like that you told him you already had plans with your girlfriends. He seems interested in meeting in person and hopefully that will happen very soon. I would limit the texting until you meet in person but there just me.

[catfeeder]

I think you're sinking far, far too much of your focus into this one dude, who you haven't even met yet. The best advice I've ever heard about using dating apps came from Dr. Joy Browne, author of 'Dating for Dummies.' (She hated that title, BTW, but it was that series that contracted her.)

 

Her method is pretty commonly used these days: Use the apps to screen and set up MANY quick meets with MANY local people. Just 15 to 30 minutes for a cup of coffee. This avoids fantasy building and too much investment in any one person, because most people are NOT our match. That's just odds, and the better we can grasp this, the easier it is to roll with meeting and allowing wrong matches to pass early.

 

Rules are that neither can corner the other for a 'real' date on the spot, but either can contact the other afterward with an invite. If the answer is yes, the other responds, if not, then no response is necessary. This takes the squirmy rejection stuff off the table and allows you to switch your focus to the next quick meet you've lined up.

 

Your intense contact and rumination is far too much of an investment in one stranger who you might be able to tell in 5 minutes holds no chemistry for you. The problem is, you're building up fantasy chemistry 'around' this one guy, and that can cloud your judgment about the actual meeting while investing you too heavily in a singular outcome.

 

I'd skip that, and I'd quit investing unless and until a quick meet materializes. Meanwhile, I'd be screening other guys and meeting them. Quickly. Boom! A cup of coffee that tells you whether it's thumbs up or down with any given guy. Whoever can meet, great--meet, but otherwise, move on to meet someone else and invest your focus into balancing your own life, friends, interests and career--not fantasies.

 

Head high.

[Batya33]

Yes -Dr. Joy hated that title -almost forgot that (I got to meet her and talk with her in person once -awesome). Dr. Joy suddenly passed away last September but her book is great I am sure and even better if you can somehow search podcasts of her talk show you'll get a lot of nuggets of amazing advice not just on dating but on self esteem and self-confidence (I think she also wrote other books).

 

Of course I agree with Catfeeder as I wrote above but less eloquently (and without the Dr. J reference!).

[Alex39]

He responded early this morning saying

 

"Haha ok, I'm down." (to me saying would like to make plans with him very soon.)

 

The he starts talking about his week ahead, in general conversation, not in a making plans type way.

 

So hopefully things keep on this positive upturn.

[Batya33]

He responded early this morning saying

 

"Haha ok, I'm down." (to me saying would like to make plans with him very soon.)

 

The he starts talking about his week ahead, in general conversation, not in a making plans type way.

 

So hopefully things keep on this positive upturn.

 

So far you don't have a plan to meet so keep that in mind as to how much time you choose to invest in this person and how much you want to risk getting more attached. I don't see what he wrote as positive given the length of time that has passed -positive would be him setting a time/place and making sure it was also convenient for you.

Good luck.

[Jibralta]

I'm hoping I did the right thing. I do really want to meet him in person. Now I'm regretting not going with him.

 

You did the right thing. You shouldn't have to restructure your life in order to have a relationship with someone. A good relationship fits into the life you already have.

[katrina1980]

Echo what others have said but please let us know when he actually schedules the date (first meet). I can't help feeling he is still stringing you along. Not sure why I feel that way maybe because the only time he managed to show real interest in you by calling, and wanting to meet you (last minute) was when he was drunk! Today, in the light of day and SOBER, he chats up a storm but no mention of meeting or making a plan to meet. I don't ever trust what a man tells me or how he acts when drunk. Something sounds off.

 

I really REALLY hope I am wrong, wanting so bad for this to work out for you. Let us know.

[Alex39]

Thanks for the continued support and advice. I appreciate all who took the time to read all of this. My friends all think he really likes me at this point. He talks to me everyday and even the call, drunk or not, was pretty cute. We don't have plans yet, so hopefully soon.

 

I know sometimes I seem crazy. I think I get so overly excited that someone could possibly like me and I get all giddy and nervous and want them to like me. Then I get all these expectations and keep overthinking it and putting so much pressure on the situation. I don't want to do this, but I just can't help it. I'm trying so hard to stop this behavior and thought process. Truly, I am trying to so hard. I get so in my head and then become self conscious thinking he won't like me if I am like this or like that. And I get so paranoid and I don't know what to say, and then if I don't hear from him in one hour, I just assume its over and I freak out. So far, he has been talking to me pretty steadily daily, and when he drops off, he always picks up the next day. I'm overthinking like crazy. We have nothing. We haven't even met, and here I am thinking that soon I am going to have a boyfriend. I need to stop this.

 

Anyone have any advice on managing expectations and keeping my cool and just being myself?

[Jibralta]

Managing expectations is a common challenge. I think everyone has experience with it to some degree. I certainly have. I haven't had an issue with it in a while, but that's not to say I'm cured. I've

found that boredom was actually a trigger for me.

 

I think that some of your anxiety might wear off naturally, as you become a more seasoned dater. Or, at some point you may say to yourself, "enough is enough," and cut off the anxiety yourself--you could actually be enjoying the 'rush' right now, strange though that may sound. And it may get old for you.

[Alex39]

I truly hope it wears off. I think its a combination of boredom and anxiety. I go online and see all these people doing stuff and if I am just sitting in my house, I start getting really paranoid that my life isn't complete or lame, and I freak out thinking I need to be with someone to make my life more full.

 

Also, I don't know why, I get bd anxiety when I don't hear from someone through text message. I immediately think they don't like me, because we aren't actively talking. Makes me get all in my head about it. This guy has always responded to me, even if a time has passed. I have this fear when I don't her right back that something is terribly wrong and I overanalyze thinking I did something or said something that turned them off. I immediately go into defensive mode thinking I need to remind them that I am here and how great I am.

 

Then I get into this pattern where I think I have to keep impressing them for them to continue to like me. So I start trying to talk to them all the time and I also start trying to through into conversations aspects of myself that I think they will like. For example, my ex loved music. (I do really enjoy music) But then suddenly I was a music buff to the extreme, thinking thats a commonality and we could bond over that and he would like me more.

 

I think I also get afraid when so much time has passed and things haven't progressed faster. Then I put pressure to want to move it along. Like with this new guy, we aren't anything, but in my head, we have something. I need to stop. He is a stranger. We've never met. I get so a head of myself thinking of the what ifs. What if we dated and we can go hiking together or to the movies and to the beach and to parties together that my friends have. We haven't even gone of a first date and I keep thinking of whats next. I want to reel this in so I don't end up scaring him away.