How come I can't magnify the good?

[boltnrun]

Machete don't text.

 

I guess you can expect 17,972 more texts and emails then.

 

If it were me that would make my blood boil, but people don't subject themselves to something unless they're getting something out of it.

[East4]

The meeting is cancelled!

 

 

 

He texted to confirm and I said okay.

 

Then an hour later he texts again re-confirming and I said "I already said okay. Please stop pestering me."

 

Then he sends 10 more texts about how he isn't pestering me and that I was the one who offered to meet. Finally I said "hey, I don't want to meet anymore."

 

The end. Not doing this.

 

Excellent! Well done.

[HSAA]

HE obviously does not have closure and that really sucks. Not that you didn't say it clearly but he might need more. You are a very strong individual who doesn't take prisoners when it comes to unwarranted attention. I'm sure you actually don't need advice from anyone, because you will do whatever you want. I wish you all the best.

[catfeeder]

... people don't subject themselves to something unless they're getting something out of it.

 

Yep. I asked about 10 pages ago what kind of outcome you want out of this, but I guess it's taken on a life of its own and has evolved into some kind of hobby.

[boltnrun]

I mean, I get that there's something very flattering about someone who just can't get over you. It proves you're worthy of love, that you're unforgettable. I'm sure it feels good to think "wow, this man really loves me!"

 

But it's not good for either of you, especially since you don't feel the same way.

 

But, you "don't" block. But then it doesn't make much sense to complain about his incessant texting. You COULD make it so you don't receive communication from him but you're choosing to continue.

 

And that's why people think you may enjoy his attention even while you complain about it.

 

I am glad to hear you won't be meeting him. I never thought it was a good idea. I also never thought it would do either of you any good.

[IAmFCA]

Yep. I asked about 10 pages ago what kind of outcome you want out of this, but I guess it's taken on a life of its own and has evolved into some kind of hobby.

 

I asked more recently as well.

 

It remains unanswered.

 

OP

 

Weve been talking about how impirtant it is to hear your own voice and to understand it. One way is to think of the inner childs voice and the adults voice. Often we can swe the childs needs have become illogical and outdated.

 

However it is best for you to describe your inner voice - what has it been saying through this process? What part of you was having its needs met by engaging in this interaction? How does that your next move?

[Batya33]

It's not that you "don't block" as if blocking were a crime or an illegal drug. You choose not to block. Own why you choose not to block in this particular situation and figure out why. Certainly from a values perspective I could see having the stance that you don't block where to do so would intentionally hurt someone who has not intended to hurt you or overstep boundaries, etc. - that is your balancing to do. But if you balance in favor of not blocking a person who is treating you this way, including by text, I agree with all the others that it's because you benefit from it in some way.

[IAmFCA]

Everything we do is because it benefits us in some way. It may not look logical on the surface but it is logical in some way.

 

If Naomi can identify the emotional needs that drive her to remain - in some way - attached to this man, then she can find another way to meet those needs and free herself from this dating cycle.

[Batya33]

Everything we do is because it benefits us in some way. It may not look logical on the surface but it is logical in some way.

 

If Naomi can identify the emotional needs that drive her to remain - in some way - attached to this man, then she can find another way to meet those needs and free herself from this dating cycle.

 

Sure, but I think in this case we can narrow down the "benefits" given how he is treating her - I think as others do that she likes the attention even the negative attention and is somehow flattered by the attention. I was just pointing out that for her it's not "because I don't block people" as if it's out of her control. It is. That was my main point.

[katrina1980]

I mean, I get that there's something very flattering about someone who just can't get over you. It proves you're worthy of love, that you're unforgettable. I'm sure it feels good to think "wow, this man really loves me!"

 

But it's not good for either of you, especially since you don't feel the same way.

 

.

 

It is flattering to her 'ego'. For someone with a healthy ego, a person's obsession like this would not be flattering it would be troubling and scary, and they would want it to end.

 

Agree it's not good for either, but I don't think she gives a fig that this isn't good for HIM. If she did she would end this for good and block. She is doing what is in her best interest, and evidently having this man continue to be obsessed with her is in her best interest at least for the moment, which to me is cruel, but if it's what she needs to feel better about herself, and her own ego, then so be. I wont judge except to say I think it's cruel, but I have not lived her life and don't know her history.

[journeynow]

I don't know if EVERYthing we do benefits us in some way.

 

However, one benefit of staying open to contact is that it provides as a gauge of our healing based on our reaction to it when it happens. If there is emotional upheaval because of contact, or even potential contact, that is telling. Sometimes we think we are further along in "getting over it" than we actually are emotionally.

[katrina1980]

I don't know if EVERYthing we do benefits us in some way.

 

However, one benefit of staying open to contact is that it provides as a gauge of our healing based on our reaction to it when it happens. If there is emotional upheaval because of contact, or even potential contact, that is telling. Sometimes we think we are further along in "getting over it" than we actually are emotionally.

 

If this post was in response to mine I don't think you understood what I meant which is okay, I am not the most articulate person sometimes. Working on it.

 

I agree not everything we do benefits us, I don't think how Naomi is handling this is benefitting her at all! It is cruel and being cruel to others never benefits anyone, especially more so for the person who is being cruel, no matter how unintentional.. Karma and all that.

 

What I meant was by refusing to take action that would end this lunacy and maybe even his obsession (which to me is NOT love), she is doing what SHE believes is in her best interests at the moment, whatever those interests are. Building up her EGO, left shattered by the doctor guy, or a self-esteem booster, left destroyed by her family's and the doctor Guy's rejection, whatever she is doing or not doing, is for HERSELF and herself only.

[Batya33]

I don't know if EVERYthing we do benefits us in some way.

 

However, one benefit of staying open to contact is that it provides as a gauge of our healing based on our reaction to it when it happens. If there is emotional upheaval because of contact, or even potential contact, that is telling. Sometimes we think we are further along in "getting over it" than we actually are emotionally.

 

I think people generally move towards pleasure and away from pain unless they are depressed/have a mental illness that imepdes that. I have a broad definition of "benefit".

[IAmFCA]

I don't know if EVERYthing we do benefits us in some way.

 

However, one benefit of staying open to contact is that it provides as a gauge of our healing based on our reaction to it when it happens. If there is emotional upheaval because of contact, or even potential contact, that is telling. Sometimes we think we are further along in "getting over it" than we actually are emotionally.

 

It may not benefit us by normal standards.

 

When I was deeply attached to a toxic man, it didn't seem to benefit me. But it benefitted my inner self who was afraid of being alone; this man was smart and strong and resourceful. It benefitted my inner need for order; i believed I needed a safety net, I believed I needed to follow, I believed I would be dismissed. He proved i was right ans at some level, my involvement put chaos into order.

 

Once I saw that I was able to adjust my core beliefs, leaving the man with no purpose.

[Ms Darcy]

No. I don't block.

 

Of course not. Blocking would mean the drama would end.

 

It's a bit of an ego trip knowing someone wants you so much.

 

#EgoTrippingTexties

[tiredofvampires]

All of these possible reasons for Naomi's continuing this saga as she is are good theories.

 

But until Naomi examines herself and asks what she is doing this for, I think they are only theories.

 

I see that she is very well able to express her feelings. But the WHY questions are not being answered, and maybe not even asked (by herself).

 

Naomi, I don't see you asking many WHY questions of yourself. We can tell you on this forum, "You get this or that out of this", but only you can actually reflect on what you think is being satisfied with your maintaining contact with him and remaining available, while feeling infuriated at him for contacting you and hoping for you to remain available. It could be that you need to know he's still there, and interested, however little you respect him and however much you're grossed out by him. It could be that you still care for him and the break was not clean, and you know there is some unfinished business. It could be that the more angry at him you are, the more you cathartic the pain of your life with a safe person -- you couldn't lash out at the doctor because you were the one feeling discarded and unimportant, whereas here, you can lash out at this guy and he won't leave, he'll try to fix it, so being the abandoned one is not a threat to you in this scenario. And in that safety, you can unloose the anger you feel about what has been done to YOU in the past.

 

It is possible that he is serving some purpose for you to express the anger you feel about how you've been used by people, and now that he's made himself an easy target for your contempt (someone you consider pathetic enough that you're not afraid of hurting him), you're riding it for all it's worth. This is your chance to hurt another the way you've been hurt, perhaps, or at least he might serve as a punching bag; he's taking it for all the friends who have ever stolen your pens, and all the things he and everyone has done that made you feel taken advantage of; and he keeps bringing the fuel for that exercise by being such a willing party.

 

I do think there is an element of cruelty going on (and some emotional S&M), as an extension of the anger. You realize this. You're not proud of it. And it continues. But I've asked in other posts, and others have asked, what do you think is behind this? And it seems those posts go unanswered.

 

There are deep psychic issues here for you to start digging into, and if you keep it at the surface level of analyzing reactions and what you should do or say next, without looking at the deeper layers of your motivations and process, you'll be peddling in place with relationships.

[catfeeder]

I don't know if EVERYthing we do benefits us in some way.

 

It's not that we manage to benefit from everything we do, it's that people don't do 'stuff' for 'no reason'. There's always a reason--it's just not always apparent.

 

It takes a degree of maturity to recognize when we're lying to ourselves. Unless and until we're willing to stop spinning and answer, honestly, "What, exactly, do I WANT out of this?" we'll just operate foolishly, unconsciously and without recognizing the payoff we want from the deal.

 

So the payoff is the key ingredient. Start there. It makes no sense to just 'do stuff' that brings about perfectly foreseeable consequences only to complain that we're victims of what we've deliberately brought about.

 

Ask, "What do I want to happen if I do this? and "Why am I unwilling to do it differently?" The first 5 answers are usually a load of crap that get nowhere near the real fear.

[Ms Darcy]

Naomi did say at one point that she felt good that he wanted her back in the beginning of the post-dump era.

[Batya33]

It's not that we manage to benefit from everything we do, it's that people don't do 'stuff' for 'no reason'. There's always a reason--it's just not always apparent.

 

It takes a degree of maturity to recognize when we're lying to ourselves. Unless and until we're willing to stop spinning and answer, honestly, "What, exactly, do I WANT out of this?" we'll just operate foolishly, unconsciously and without recognizing the payoff we want from the deal.

 

So the payoff is the key ingredient. Start there. It makes no sense to just 'do stuff' that brings about perfectly foreseeable consequences only to complain that we're victims of what we've deliberately brought about.

 

Ask, "What do I want to happen if I do this? and "Why am I unwilling to do it differently?" The first 5 answers are usually a load of crap that get nowhere near the real fear.

 

Yes, that's what I meant-it may not benefit us in the end but the motivation is to move towards pleasure and away from pain and the pleasure might not benefit us of course.

[RainyCoast]

i wanted to add...the payoffs aren't always obvious enjoyments at all. there are needs that defy the pleasure principle. sometimes the need is to punish or deprive oneself, and the pleasure a sort of masochistic one.

i think that's a repetitive feature with naomi.

 

for example, with how much the guy has cost her...it's actually sometimes referred to as passive kleptomania to set oneself up for relationships and friendships where one ends up taken advantage of and defrauded, and is considered a form of self-injury. the way i see her descriptions of the situations, it is a compulsion to set her herself up for this. she has described screaming on the inside, and compulsively giving on the outside.

[Batya33]

i wanted to add...the payoffs aren't always obvious enjoyments at all. there are needs that defy the pleasure principle. sometimes the need is to punish or deprive oneself, and the pleasure a sort of masochistic one.

i think that's a repetitive feature with naomi.

 

for example, with how much the guy has cost her...it's actually sometimes referred to as passive kleptomania to set oneself up for relationships and friendships where one ends up taken advantage of and defrauded, and is considered a form of self-injury. the way i see her descriptions of the situations, it is a compulsion to set her herself up for this. she has described screaming on the inside, and compulsively giving on the outside.

 

I saw the way she balances risks/benefits in her thread about her plan to go on a road trip with that guy. This is consistent with that mindset.

[catfeeder]

Yes, that's what I meant-it may not benefit us in the end but the motivation is to move towards pleasure and away from pain and the pleasure might not benefit us of course.

 

Sure, and the pleasure isn't necessarily obvious. For instance, if I always choose the route that brings drama and chaos to my life, yet I complain about it profusely and point to other actors with blame, at face value I can sound victimized. However, even while I keep defending my choices for the chaos with some strawman argument 'that I couldn't live with myself unless I...' you might see through that. The bottom line might be that I keep choosing chaos despite the 'pain' because I don't know how to navigate unless there's chaos driving me. I'd secretly picture a life without the chaos as boring. I'd have no rudder, and I'd suffer from the lack of attention chaos brings me.

 

So the idea isn't to say, "Oh, I love chaos..." when I genuinely resent the people who I believe are causing it. The idea is to get real about my motives for my choices in the first place. What do I WANT to occur when I refuse to take a less chaos-causing route? If I can answer that honestly, I may not 'like' that I see my own role in the mess more clearly, but then the next question becomes, WHY do I keep participating in the mess?

[Naomi99]

Sure, and the pleasure isn't necessarily obvious. For instance, if I always choose the route that brings drama and chaos to my life, yet I complain about it profusely and point to other actors with blame, at face value I can sound victimized. However, even while I keep defending my choices for the chaos with some strawman argument 'that I couldn't live with myself unless I...' you might see through that. The bottom line might be that I keep choosing chaos despite the 'pain' because I don't know how to navigate unless there's chaos driving me. I'd secretly picture a life without the chaos as boring. I'd have no rudder, and I'd suffer from the lack of attention chaos brings me.

 

So the idea isn't to say, "Oh, I love chaos..." when I genuinely resent the people who I believe are causing it. The idea is to get real about my motives for my choices in the first place. What do I WANT to occur when I refuse to take a less chaos-causing route? If I can answer that honestly, I may not 'like' that I see my own role in the mess more clearly, but then the next question becomes, WHY do I keep participating in my own role in the mess?

 

Hmm…I'm not really sure why I do what I do, but sometimes I wait a long time before making a decision because I don't trust my gut and I want to make the most effective choice. So maybe that's why it seems so long and drawn out full of chaos as you read these posts.

 

I don't think I chose the route that would bring chaos. I try to minimize it. That's why I broke up, because he brought chaos!

[Batya33]

Hmm…I'm not really sure why I do what I do, but sometimes I wait a long time before making a decision because I don't trust my gut and I want to make the most effective choice. So maybe that's why it seems so long and drawn out full of chaos as you read these posts.

 

I don't think I chose the route that would bring chaos. I try to minimize it. That's why I broke up, because he brought chaos!

 

Waiting doesn't have to mean chaos and should mean the opposite. It's like a professor of mine advised in our creative writing class where we had to produce a short story every week or so -he said if you can't figure out what to write, take a long hot bath. Same with making decisions. Sure maybe write down or think of pros/cons but then let it all seep in organically, let it come to you -not necessarily "trust your gut" but trust that your brain and heart and thought process will work through all of it without your forcing it and overthinking and you'll come to at least a decent decision.

[Naomi99]

Long story short. We ended up meeting Sunday evening at a cafe. He was already seated when I walked in. "hey/what's up/you look great.." blah blah. I sit down. Silence. He fiddles with his coffee cup, clears his voice, fiddles with his laptop, looks at me and says, "Do you want to sit at another table?" I say, "No this is cool."

 

I'm waiting for him to start talking but he doesn't!! So I start looking around at the walls, at my finger nails, out the window.

 

And there's so much awkward silence he finally goes, "I'm nervous."

 

I said, "Why? Don't be. It's just me. Nothing to be nervous about."

 

He goes, "Do you not want to be here? Do you want to leave? Because you seem like you don't want to be here."

 

I said, "I came all the way out here in the rain, at nighttime, to meet you. You've been haranguing me to talk for nearly two months, and here I am. So please. Talk."

 

He finally starts talking and he is so nervous I feel sorry for him. His voice is all high and shaky. He proceeds to rehash the events and the day of the breakup, (BTW, he got at least 50 percent of the chronology and details wrong, and of course he re-wrote history to support his story,) the days after the breakup and how he's been so depressed because he doesn't understand how I could love him so much and break up the next day. He had tears in his eyes and I just could NOT bring myself to tell him about the cheapness and the way he behaved on that night I had my friends over. I didn't think it was proper timing to kick someone while they were down, so I defaulted to the generality of "we are incompatible and the timing was off. You were leaving so I saw no reason to iron things out…" blah blah.

 

Then he starts in with, "You knew I couldn't eat. You didn't even wish me happy birthday or even thank me for the pastries. Why didn't you ever reach out to see how I was doing? I lost 15 pounds and couldn't eat. Don't you care about me?"

 

Then I said (okay maybe a little bit animated), "Look, I know you are upset over this whole thing, but it's not my responsibility to hold your hand through this breakup, especially when I am the one who did the breaking up! How is you losing 15 pounds my responsibility? And sending me those pastries, I wish you hadn't. It wasn't a highlight of my life, more like a hinderance from moving on. I was trying to close that chapter and you kept reopening it. I'm not obligated to wish you happy birthday, or even meet here with you, to be quite honest."

 

Then at that point he looked shocked and said, "I'm leaving." He got up and shoved his laptop into his bag and had tears coming down his face and his eyes were all pink and he stormed out.

 

I followed him out. It was raining and I kept shouting his name. Finally I caught up to him and I pulled him under a store awning out of the rain. He was crying. He said, "I'm so hurt right now, but I understand now who you are and this is the closure I need."

 

And then I did the unthinkable, and you guys are going to slap me for this. I lifted my chin and leaned forward to kiss him. And it wasn't a sexually-driven act at all…it was because he was crying and I could see he was genuinely hurt and I felt like a mother kissing her son's boo-boo.

 

And then he did the unthinkable. He grabbed my shoulders and pushed me away!!!

 

I stood back with my eyes all big, kind of embarrassed. I said, "Okay, well, then I guess I will be going."

 

So I turned around walked out into the rain looking for my keys, making a beeline for my car. I was embarrassed because he pushed me away, and secondly because it was misread as a romantic kiss when it was a sympathy kiss.

 

Then he starts chasing me in the rain, "Naomi, naomi, come back. Come back here. I didn't reject you. It's just inappropriate to kiss right now. That's not why I wanted to meet you."

 

He clearly could see I was embarrassed, so he pulls me back under the store awning, opens his bag and whips out a huge-ass tupperware. Inside of it is a bunch of hand-picked beautiful flowers that he arranged into a perfect little bouquet. It was so sweet. I started crying and I said where did you get these?

 

He said he picked them during his jog earlier today. (given his past stealing fruit, an image of him tromping through some old lady's prized garden stealing her award-winning flowers flashed through my mind.)

 

Anyway we talked a little bit more. He said he's had the worst two months of his life, and his friends say he's an idiot for chasing me, but he says he just couldn't give up. Then he asked me now that he is staying local, has that had any impact on how I feel about him.

 

I said: You are everything I want on paper and physically but there are fundamental differences too great where this won't work out."

 

He asks, "What are those fundamental differences?"

 

I still felt the moment was too raw to bring up that he is a sorry cheapskate, etc….so I said, "This isn't really the right time to talk about it. It's late, I'm freezing and really gotta get home."

 

And he said, "Okay…well, why don't we just think about things for the next few days, and then I'll contact you and we can talk again."

 

I said, "Okay."

 

The end.

 

I'm not going to lie. Seeing him for the first time, I DO love him but I am not in love with him. I care about him. And that whole thing last night was incredibly romantic in the rain, under the streetlights, under the awning surrounded by trailing vines. Then whipping out a bunch of flowers out of his bag.

 

(I know I'm going to get it for not speaking my mind, but honestly guys. Be gentle with me. As mean as I am, I just couldn't bring myself to be completely honest at that moment. is wrong with me??? Maybe I should have brought it up while he was crying.)