Enigmatic

I will let you in on a little secret.... It IS possible to be both open and let someone in and STILL remain protected and strong so that people do not hurt you. Yep... I know it sounds impossible but it really is true. The key? Communication. If you are with someone and you are afraid of being hurt again then tell them that, explain to them that you were hurt and that you need to protect yourself, be clear to them that you are doing it out of self-preservantion (as I am sure you would want them to do the same for themselves in return), make sure you are clear that you want them to talk with you if this bothers them and that you are always there to talk if they are unsure. Any decent and caring person would accept this, and would encourage you to do things that are positive for yourself... if they don't then they obviously have their own agenda or seek their own gains rather than the mutually beneficial gains that a good relationship can bring. Being alone is far better than being with someone who is causing you pain (and this is coming from someone who NEVER wanted to be alone)... believe me, being strong in yourself is what attracts people to you... you wont be alone for long, so don't accept people if they are not suitable simply because you dont want to be alone.

You have discovered my friend the infamous "Damn I am caught, time to turn it around" response that is typical of cheaters. I knew someone like this, someone who turned something that was clearly their wrongdoing into me being the one at fault and they did so with such anger and such venom that it took me by surprise. Think about it... if your girlfriend accused you of cheating when you knew you hadn't, would you be outrageously angry? or would you be sad or hurt? I am sure you are saying the latter. We all would... When someone takes something like that and shows anger they are basically saying to you "Feel Pain! How dare you expose what I have done and make me face my own guilt. You are thereforeeeeee the enemy and should be punished". My advice is simple... YOU are the one in power, sit her down with the conversation and ask her why she shouldn't be thrown out the door immediately. If she truly does love you then she will make an effort to rectify the problem... if she doesn't then she isn't worth it. I know it isn't easy to give someone up (regardless of how bad they treat you sometimes) but you will thank yourself in the future.

You wouldn't believe how many times I have heard people say that... and in almost every case (you may be the exception) the reason someone is so adamant about not being known is because it is a convenient way of avoiding reality. Do I know you? No... neither does a psychologist who speaks to you twice a week for a year... yet they seem to quite correctly diaglose people. If it is invalid then please describe to me exactly why it is "weird" for an older woman of 18 to be going out with a younger boy of 14? You say its weird, yet you don't state why... the reason you don't state why is simple... there isn't a reason, its a "gut feel" you have because you have been programmed to feel that way. If I am so very invalid then all you need to do is give me the reason why it is "weird" and that will immediately shut me up and prove me to be everything you say I am. If you can't show the exact reason why... then I guess I was right Your welcome... always happy to enlighten people to the things they refuse to see about themselves Mmmm... did you say you were 19 or 12?!? I forget... the last comment seems very much like the latter.

Rachelle What you are basically saying is that you are a slave to societal forces and the fact that our society has ingrained into us that men must be older in order to be acceptable is ok with you. Yes it would seem weird for an 18 year old girl to go out with a 14 year old boy... not because it IS weird, but because you have been very neatly programmed by society to see it this way. It isn't a problem with young people, nor is it a concept strictly associated with age-gap relationships.... An older man being with a younger woman is seen in society as being acceptable, while an older woman with a younger man is seen as dispicable for no good reason. Well done Rachelle... the world would be proud of how easy you fell into line and accepted their thousand year old rhetoric.

Have either of you ever considered that it may be mental and not physical? If he has been taking physicals and they show everything is fine within his body, there is a good chance that either he has a chemical imbalance, depression or any number of psychological or mental reasons for why he feels the way he does (especially if he says he doesn't know why). It may be of benefit for either or both of you to see help from a councilor, to see if you can work it out... Sex is usually the first thing to go when people are not feeling good about themselves, or if there is any undue level of stress.

Women very rarely understand porn for a man. While I am sure there are many cases of obsession, I think at least 80% of those 'claimed' to be obsession truly aren't. I am also sure that there are many cases where the degree to which a man looks at porn correlates to how he feels about his partner, again for the most part this isn't the case. One thing women will not understand is the difference between men and women... they think that if any sexual gratification is occurring, and it isn't happening with their partner then it MUST reflect badly on the relationship. This simply isn't the case. Boys and men masturbate when they are not in a relationship, they masturbate when they are, they masturbate the morning after sex and they masturbate sometimes even more sex.... the bottom line is that masturbation and sex with a partner are TOTALLY different. With a partner it is loving, sharing, caring... where you both want to enjoy and experience the pleasure of being together.... Masturbation is ejaculating. The moment you start to try and compare levels of masturbation with levels of sexual intimacy with a partner is the moment you will ALWAYS feel as if you are a sideline because you are not comparing apples to oranges. What do you mean "somewhat"? Either you have discussed it with him or you haven't, either you are working towards a solution or your not. It sounds that it wasn't a discussion but instead was probably a lecture and thus you dont feel as if you have really discussed it. And a man will masturbate regardless of how he feels... yet he will only have sex with a partner if he is feeling good. The reasons are simple. If he masturbates then he is just getting himself off... if he makes love to his partner and he doesn't feel good in himself then he may feel like he is betraying his partner and just having sex with her... thus men may avoid sex but not avoid masturbation because they can't betray themselves. And that thinking is what is causing the problem. Masturbation, or looking at porn is NOT (and I cannot stress this enough)... it is NOT a sign of sexual interest, at least not the same sexual interest as that which we have with a partner. Masturbation usually takes less than 5 minutes for a guy, if he were to spend 5 minutes with his partner then the partner would be incredibly dissatisfied. So if a man wants to simply relieve a "bit" of tension, he takes 5 minutes and relieves it... lovemaking with his partner may take hours, requires all of his attention and all of his love and desire, and if he isn't feeling the love and desire yet he is frustrated (remember that a man is CONSTANTLY producing sperm regardless of the time of day or night) he would always opt to masturbate instead of intitiating sex with his partner. Most men (at least the good ones) value their partners as more than just a means to "getting off"... and for this reason they will never engage in sexual intimacy with thier partner for the same reasons they would masturbate. They would feel the use of their partner in that way as being very bad, and they care too much about their partners feelings to just jump in, get it over with and get out (which is EXACTLY what they do with masturbation). Despite what people may think... relationship problems tend to first manifest themselves in less sex... the sex declines not because their partner doesn't love them as much, nor because they are bored... but simply because that level of open and intimate sharing totally contradicts the friction of the relationship and it would feel "false" to try and be sexual when you are not feeling that way. Masturbation is different altogether. A man could feel the lowest he has ever felt in his life, could be on the verge of tiredness or depression, he could be having the worst or the best time of his life in a relationship and he will still masturbate.

I think the first problem is to try and guage one relationship against another. Doing so never gives you a good answer. Less sex doesn't mean its worse just as more sex doesn't mean its better. It doesn't sound lame at all.. have you talked to him about it though? Open communication is the most important thing. Hmmm... so you are judging him (I dont mean it to sound as harsh as it is but that is the crux of it) and what you think he should be like... and because he isn't what you think he should be then he mustn't love you as much? A lot of people do this... if only they would just "ask", half of the problems would never exist in the first place So in other words he has been exactly who he is the whole time and you are upset that he isn't like other people you have known or what you "expect" him to be like even though you are not him? Now that did sound harsh... sorry, but it sounds like he is a wonderful and loving person, who doesn't just want you for sex and who is quite capable of "getting into it" when you do... yet because your last boyfriend may have seen you more as a sex object and had sex more often your current boyfriend mustn't love you as much?!? [qoute] Of course I take it personally and wonder whether he's getting bored of me already... could it be this, or maybe just he has a lesser libido than most? Why do you take it personally "of course"? You make it sound as if this is normal or the "right thing to do". If people judged themselves on the actions of other people (especially when they dont let the other people know what those actions mean) then they will always come out feeling unloved, unwanted. "lesser libido than most"... Do you actually realise that the average couple have sex 2-3 times a month? (If the statistics are to be believed) and that the length of actual penetrative intercourse lasts 7 minutes in TOTAL? He may just well be "average" while others you have known were exceptional. Well from a purely male perspective you are going through the typical "Does my bum look fat in this?" and any answer he gives leaves him in hot water. He treats you better than most men would treat women (Would you prefer he had sex 10 times a week but NO kissing and cuddling?) but still he mustn't be interested... One thing I can tell you... is that the FIRST thing that puts a guy off sex is indecisiveness in a woman. People who are overweight or concerned about their appearance never understand this... they think their partners don't want them when in reality it is their attitude which turns their partner off the most. If you are feeling like he is getting bored, or if you honestly consider him as having a "lesser libido than most" then chances are your attitude is showing through to him and this is turning him off. I understand most people feel like this at some point, and it is a natural human emotional response... but in reality it is totally unfounded, there is no basis of reality or reason or even logic to it and it is your own emotional being that is fighting with itself. Do you only feel the other person is interested in you if they want sex all the time? What would this say about your self-esteem? If someone doesn't want sex with you why does that mean you are less of a person? I probably haven't approached my reply very well, it does sound quite harsh despite my intentions but in all honesty, if you haven't been open and honest with your boyfriend and talked to him about this then so far it is all in your head... you have made up the problem, made up the reason and already passed sentence without even once asking him if any of it is true

The thing which I think people need to understand is that the viewing of porn in no way is a reflection of how a person views their partner. sticker_girl, your post while not directly saying it, kind of hints that you believe if you were more appealing or more attractive then he would look at less porn... this simply isn't true. As I guy, I can say purely and simply that the viewing of porn (in many instances, not all) is totally and completely unrelated to how you feel about your partner, the amount of sex you are having or even how satisfied they make you. Those who say "If I satisfied him then he wouldn't look" should ask themselves if their man truly satisfied them, why would they use vibrator? Or manually stimulate themselves during intercourse? Baby Bear, I think the biggest mistake your boyfriend made was in not realising how much it effected you. You could have come straight out and told him instead of "hedging" around it and expecting him to pick up on it (men are not mind readers you know), so in a sense you lead him down a trap and then got upset that he unknowingly triggered it. If you said you were ok, then you cannot blame him for taking any other action. Of course had he realised you were lying through your teeth he would have made things a lot easier, but it really isn't fair to be upset at him for not stopping it on his own if you didn't make it clear that is what you wanted. The fact of the matter is he isn't cheating on you, he isn't talking to people on the net, he isn't flirting with people, he isn't looking to get anything outside of his relationship... he is just looking at porn. From what you have said, when you did make it clear it was hurting you he immediately stopped, he DID show you how much he cares and it doesn't sound like he has ever made you feel bad for making that decision. Its natural that you are still worried if he looks at it, I am sure every time you are not there you are wondering what he is doing... that is where he needs to build up that trust again, so make sure he does whatever you need to restore that trust. I used to look at porn a fair bit, and we had a similar situation to yourself. What she ended up doing was leaving me pictures of herself and now when I am feeling a little toey I look at them instead... much better than porn, and the fact she would do that for me really shows that she cares about our sexual relationship and wants to make things fun for us. I love her for doing that and I haven't even had the "need" to look at it ever since... its all a matter of "convenience" and now it is more convenient that I look at her photos Let us know how it is doing.

Will... At no point have I ever stated that a law should be negated, and despite your poor assumptions as to my eduction or understanding of the law the point I was making has obviously failed you. What I was saying is that "because" our laws are not perfect at all times, and "because" we understand there is still a need for them, we need to TEMPER those laws with knowledge, understanding and a complete assessment of the situation. That is why I am picking you up on it... because you simply read "he 18, she 14, she under age thereforeeeeeee crime committed". You have taken the law at face value, without any knowledge of their situation, without any tempering based on the situation itself... you have given "blind justice" and found him guilty outright and with no reason. Sure it is against the law, and the laws MUST be there (Where you believed I said they shouldn't is beyond me)... but you cannot apply the law with so little information. If it turns out the girl is being pressured into it, or if the boy doesn't have good intentions, or if there are a multitude of reasons why it "should" be considered a crime then by all means (and I fully support it) stop it from happening and charge the person with committing a crime. BUT You cannot determine this with so little information, and to do so is a crime in itself. If after gaining more facts, more knowledge, more "wisdom" (a word you seem to like in your previous post that has suddenly disappeared. Do you now admit they are not that wise?), it is found that these two people knowingly and willingly conscent, love each other to the capacity they can, understand the implications of what they are doing and have had fair and honest council by those around them... Then is it a crime? What crime has been committed? The purpose of laws are to protect those who cannot protect themselves, it is there to provide "reason for pause" for those who have the power to dominate or abuse others. How can someone be abused if it is mutually consentual? Now you may say "She doesn't truly understand and thereforeeeeeee cannot give conscent", but who are we to judge what she can or cannot understand? I am not a 14 year old girl and I have absolutely no idea what she is or is not capable of... neither do you, neither does some fat cat politician in his late 60's sitting in some beaurocrats office know. Yet you and these "wise people" somehow feel you have the right to force upon them choices that they may not want.. So who is being abused here? who is being dominated and subjegated into something against their will? A 14 year old girl who wants to express her love for a boyfriend that cares greatly for her? (if this is the case) or some "last century" politician out of touch with the world forcing HER to do thing the way HE believes she should. It doesn't take anyone of intelligence to see who is being victomized here. (Having said that, I dont know if the original poster is in this position, he may in fact not have good itentions, and she may in fact not be mature and responsible enough to decide... BUT WE DONT KNOW THAT!. You have taken the worst view and I have provided an "alternative" view to show that it isn't so cut and dried) I have absolutely no qualms in admitting that you are FAR more knowledgable about the law than I am, and in fact I am happy to "defer" on all counts to your understanding of it completely and totally overshadows mine... But what does "law" have to do with what is right and wrong? You yourself admit they are not perfect and that laws are created NOT by people but by beaurocrats who often have no touch with the real world. Take my example for instance... The "law" says you can have sex at 16... yet you cannot "watch" people having sex (or see an erect penis) until you are 18. That is the law (and I am sure you can tell me exactly which paragraphs it is, whatm chapter it comes under etc, etc) but you don't have to know the law to see that this is preposterous, that there is clearly a hole in the system. (PLEASE ANSWER THIS ONE, YOU MISSED IT PURPOSELY IN THE PREVIOUS POST) I agree whole heartedly... and I would be the first person standing up there to make sure that these people are protected... BUT The determination for what is "too young" should not SOLELY rest upon the chronological age of the person. To have so clear cut and dried a line will cause innocent people to be punished for things they didn't do, it will cause them to be considered and treated as people THOUSANDS of times worse than them for no other reason than people like you cannot understand that there needs to be perspicacity within the legal system... not globally mathematical statements like " I repeat again (and I am not talking about the poster here), why is an 18 year old boy, in a stable, encouraging and loving relationship with a 14 year old girl, who is mature and knowledgable enough to freely consent to intimacy, considered the SAME as a 40 year old man who serially rapes and abuses children? Clearly you believe they are exactly the same... clearly they are not. THAT is the point I am making here. I am not condoning it happening, I am not saying laws should not be there, I am not trying to "get him off"... I am simply saying that you need to look at things a bit more openly and with more thirst for knowing the FACTS, rather than wading in with you law books saying "Clearly it breaks the law, go get raped in prison"... That makes YOU worse than them. And who is that person? I have never said that... that was your own bigotry and your own pre-determined bias that ignored what I wrote and made several assumptions based not on fact but on their own emotional state. Notice how I have repeatedly stated that I do not talk of having laws removed yet you continue to believe I do... Notice that more than once I have reiterated my views yet you continue to ignore them, instead believing what YOU want to believe and not what I write. If that is not ignorant blindness I dont know what is... Even if I ask you if you now understand you will ignore the line of the reply completely... why? Because admitting it means you have to drop your preconceptions, you would have to lose your bias and it is my belief that you will refuse to do this until the day you die... Again your assumptions are false and based on your own bias. Do I know mor than the rest of us? No... But I can clearly see the faults that are there and have pointed them out CLEARLY yet you refuse to acknowledge them. You "want" to believe that I dont know much, it sits better with you... it "galls" you to think that someone else may have found things that you have not... But guess who is making clear points and guess who has conveniently ignored them? You wont even respond on my point of the disparity between age of conscent and censorship of visual material... yet you call ME without knowledge?!?! Ahhh.. but of course they should listen to yours shoudln't they... YOU are right and I am wrong because you are the lawyer and I am not... So simple in your world isn't it? We have 2 possibilities here : Possibility 1 Two people who truly love each other, know what they are doing, know the risks and the responsibilities and wish to express their love for one another. If that is the case then your "knowledge" will make them feel like they are criminals, that their feelings for one another are wrong and that they are some how "scum" for even contemplating it. Your knowledge will tell him that he should be raped and sodomized in prison for what he is thinking. There he is wanting to express his love for his partner, and you are saying that it is a crime, that he should suffer greivously, with his own rights and body violated horribly simply because he is in a situation where she is under age. Thats good advice you give there... My advice? My advice is that he needs to be sure he is doing the right thing, that she knows what she is getting into, that they are doing it for the right reasons, that she isn't being pressured into it, and that they need to understand the gravity of what are doing and be absolutely sure that nobody will get hurt as a result. As the older person he needs to be MORE vigilant, he need to make sure that she isn't doing it for the wrong reasons, he needs to protect her and make sure she isn't deceiving herself and that she truly does understand. The advice I give if this "IS" the situation would be far more helpful and less destructive than yours. Possibility 2 He just wants sex, for some crazy reason he decided to come to a forum to ask other peoples opinions (which is strange if he is the predator you say he is), and he will do everything he can to get them. Your advice may or may not have an effect on him. If this is the case and he is a predator then he deserves what he gets and I would be the first to acknowledge it. People who prey on others are totally despicable, people who force others into things against their will are the true scum of the earth. Your advice may hopefully shock him and he may not do it. If it does stop him it will stop him out of fear of being caught, but I cannot understand why a person who is a predator (and knows it) would enter a forum like this and post his intentions. My advice? If this is the situation then my advice might be as useless as yours, obviously it isn't as strong and "fear of god" as yours is but you have already stated yours so I dont need to cover that angle... instead, if it doesn't deter him out of "fear" then my advice may deter him out of compassion... by realising that what he is doing may hurt her, or that it isn't a good thing he may choose not to do it or these reasons. Conclusion The whole purpose for me offering an alternative was that your solution didn't cover all bases, it simply did the typical athoritarian thing of "You Bad, Suffer and Die!" which rarely gets through to people... his post needed an alternative view, not one that says "Hey go and do it" but one that is intelligent and open enough to say "Make sure its right if you do decide, because it could really hurt her if it isn't right". Yours talks about LAW and about RIGHT/WRONG and mine talks about PEOPLE... about LIVES. Your head is so up in the sky you forget that we are talking about real people here... You are so interested in the establishment of laws to protect some "unkown" quantity, while REAL people are getting hurt regardless of those laws. Run for office? Hehehe... join the "boys club". Obviously you know very little about politics. It isn't the one with the "best" answers who gets into power... it is the one that can play their games, who can beat them at their own games, the one with the least "mud" stuck to them. I wouldn't last 5 minutes in "office" because I dont fight dirty like other people, I dont compromise my morals and some fo the answers I come up with wouldn't be viewed well by the politically correct "minority" who are so far removed from the world they wouldn't know a human being if it robbed their beverley hills appartment. To give you an example of what I am talking about, a high court judge recently said during a spousal abuse case... "As a wife it is sometimes her duty to have sex with her husband if he wants it, there is nothing wrong with a husband taking something that is rightfully his through marriage". THAT is the kind of "wise" person you are talking about, THAT is the kind of blind ignorance and out of touch nature I mean. Also, a very respected, very responsible and incredibly good high court judge recently disclosed his homosexuality. Certain factions of the community were up in arms about it and got him sacked... For what reason? Was he bad at his job? Did he do anything to compromise his office? ABSOLUTELY NOT, he had a steady partner who he had been with for decades... and his only "crime"... was not fitting into the small minded views of the vocal minority who are so mentally challenged it amazes me. Yet once again these things are happening in the "real world"... the one which you believe you are a part of but seem to fail to understand so well.

Wow... you can read all that from the simple statement "it lasted a year". Amazing... So you have absolutely no idea why the relationship ended, if one of them moved state, or if there were other problems involved (psychological problems perhaps), there could have been a 100 reasons for the relationship ending and none of them has anything to do with the fact the emotion did NOT last. I am sure you know many cases where people love each other yet their relationship doesn't last for various reasons... but to ignorantly and outright dismiss something based on absolutely no information only shows your bigotry. Ok, so define for me what time frame is required before you can legally define it as love? If 1 year falls below your imaginary mark, what about a 2 year relationship? 3 years? I am actually interested to hear not only your answers but which reference book you obtained them from. How very unadult of you to make assumptions based on emotional bias... Mind explaining where you have gained this knowledge? Or is it the same source as the rest of your ignorant and bigoted pool of misinformation and personal disallusionment? So at 16 one MAGICALLY becomes an adult... how intersting. I also find it funny however... that the law states a person is not allowed to view material of a sexual nature until they are 18 (Movies Rated 'R' for instance). So legally they are allow to perform an act for 2 years before they are actually able to watch it... Don't you find that interesting? Now perhaps I am wrong... but I also thought that one of the tenants of being anadult was being able to do things adults do... yet as you say they are not an adult until age 16, they have only JUST obtained the ability to drive, they cannot vote in an election, they will not be sent to war via conscription and they cannot legally consume alcohol or cigarettes for 2 more years.... Wow... So if someone is an "adult" at age 16, then why do so many things only become legal to them at age 18? Obviously... you are proving that point extremely well. So you are saying that in your part of the world people mature slower and that the law has actually observed this phenomenon and thus increased the minimum age in order to cope with your countries retardedness compared to the rest of the world? I pitty you then... That the two of us may be the same age yet I have been an "adult" longer than you must really grate on your nerves. Mmmm... now that is interesting. Do you realise that this law only pertains to people above that age? That if a boy of 16 was to have intimacy with a girl of 16 then it is NOT considered as you say so poorly "child molesting"? Another interesting fact... Someone who was born on the 1st of january who is intimate with a person who is only ONE DAY younger than him is "suddenly" committing a serious crime because of the chronology of his birth? And that at some point during 2 magical years in which a person goes from being 16 to 18 he "suddenly" develops the mentality or ability to become a child molesterer where only 2 years prior he was incapable (as far as the law is concerned) Are these the same wise people who say you can HAVE sex at 16 but you cannot WATCH set until you are 18... These are the "wise" people whom you follow and as an attourney whom you look up to. I think we are getting to the crux of the situation here... you follow a bunch of idiots who design and develop laws with the intention to protect people but end up doing nothing more than wasting the money of everyone else in the courts... You call an innocent, caring and loving 18 year old boy who falls in love with a mature, consciencious and strong 14 year old girl (without ANY mention of sex) a scumbag? I think attourneys are the scumbags, at least these 2 are not taking money from other people, they are not hurting other people and what they do is with the conscent of all involved... You on the other hand take money from people, vast quantitied way beyond their ability to afford or any "fair" measure and you have the audacity to pass judgement on other people!? I find that interesting. A person is not able to legally make their OWN choice to consent to sex at this age because the government considers them "sub-human"... yet they happily put them behind the wheel of a motor vehicle,make them fully responsible for anything that happens and trusts in their judgement and mental faculties NOT to kill other people in the process. Ahhh... sorry... I forgot... this is these same "wise" people you were talking about earlier wasn't it? My mistake... I must get a manual on how to obfuscate the law as badly as has been done, I may understand better. I am not surprised that is how you read what I wrote, considering how poorly you have understood anything this is only to be expected. The point you have made above is the absolute reverse of what I am saying. Just because a person is of a certain age does not mean they should have a license to drive. It is not simply the "age" which determines a persons validity but a determination by the authorities that they pass all the requirements. To prove that point I gave you the example of a 14 year old boy who can LEGALLY drive, thus dismissing the fact of "age" being the factor. To try and illustrate this further I showed that people who ARE over this age drive WORSE than some of those that are under, highlighting even further the fact that determination based purely on AGE has no meaning and is pure ignorance. Would you like it explained a 3rd time? Or can you cope with this one? Yes... alas I MUST know less than them because their laws are so clear and precise, so clear in fact that no lawyers are needed to try and muddle their way through them, there are no appeals because everything is just so wise and so well laid out that nobody ever finds loopholes or ways around it. May I ask which world you live in? Does this come from the same mental source as the one who condones sodomy and rape in prison? All I am saying is that it isn't as clear cut as age, I have proved with several examples (and all you have to quote is "wise" people whose laws I have also proved are NOT wise) this is the case. What I would "wish" (if you had even bothered asking) is that situations like these should be made on a case-by-case basis by truly wise people (not these people you talk of), by psychologists and social workers who actually UNDERSTAND the society we live in instead of politicians who have never seen the real world in their life. If it turns out that it isn't in the best interests of the girl then by all means stop them... but to automatically assume without any information or knowledge is pure ignorance. Ah of course... Commies under the bed, Terrorists in the cupboard... I MUST be some evil creature, a predator that preys on people... It is totally beyond all perception and reason that someone could actually have a different view to yours... and if someone did have a different view then it must be one derrived in pure selfish hedonism. It is ignorant assumptions like that which is why the world of the 20th century NEEDS to grow up, it is views like yours which have brought our world to the point it is, where kids are shooting each other in schools, why NY has a murder every how many seconds?, and why the "politically correct" yet "mentally retarded" people such as yourself are in positions where they can cause the most damage. If you are an attourney you should be utterly and absolutely ashamed of yourself, to make such assumptions and to be so ignorant only makes me feel very sad for the people who waste their money believing you can help them. Ahh I see... and am I just being silly you now accusing ME of molesting a child? I do believe that is "slander" in your part of the world... and you being anattourney and all (And do not attempt to get out of it by saying you were just "wondering" out aloud) That is the problem... You see 2 people who are in love, one of which falls below this "magic marker" and you label him with the same repugnance as some 40 year old man who preys on children and forces them to do things. Do you honestly believe the two to be the same? You obviously believe so. And what of the people who meet girls who say they are 18, who have fake IDs to prove it and yet it turns out later they were under 16? Is the man a child molesterer and should be sent to prison to be raped simply because he unknowingly made a mistake? After all... fact is fact, she was under age and he wasn't so once again he is a child molesterer in your world. What I am trying to say (and what your blinded by the law eyes cannot see) is that there are always CIRCUMSTANCES, and that to blindly take limited information that you see and use that in the way you are doing so is pure bigotry. Well I would warn him also, but I would do so because chances are those people around him are like you... ignorant, bigoted and will not take the time to understand anything and will simply make things worse if he did choose that path. Would you believe me if I told you? Or would you instantly assume there was an ulterior motive? I protest because I hate injustice, I hate ignorant people, I hate those who judge other people and especially those who believe their own personal beliefs should be shared by the world. Your response, the fact you categorized this boy in the same way as a raper of children, that you almost laugh with glee at the prospect of him being sodomised and raped in prison, made me realise that another point of view was required here. Ahhh.. but of course you know more. "gaps in logic"? Interesting. You point out "wise" people whose laws are proved to be contradictory yet I am not smart enough? LOL!!! I never thought i would see this here... but here we are... its a Pi$$ing contest is it? Whip it out and lets compare size so we can put it to rest the "old fashioned" way? I was wondering when it would come down to point scoring... when people start to fail to make a good case they resort to alternative methods of achieving their goals. I was thinking more along the lines of the fact you are an attourney and thus the law is your "crutch" and is never wrong. The self-centered comment relates to the fact you would never admit nor even acknowledge that perhaps your beloved law system could be at fault, or that the people who write those laws would ever make a mistake or misjudge society in any way... Hence I believe it is very relevant... Of course you wouldn't have seen this, I was being far too cerebral for you to pick up on the association Interesting... do you often look at young girls like that? And take note of how fully developed they are? "very pretty", "absolutely the most fully developed".. An interesting use of words... anyone would think you were attracted to someone so young. Are you often attracted to girls so young? Perhaps we SHOULD inform the police if you are finding yourself attracted to people so young. Interesting... I dont believe I ever said anything like that, in fact all I was saying is that based on the original post there isn't much information to go on, we dont know their history, we dont know who they are as people. I ask for more information and scold you for being so judgemental and you believe I am trying to work it so that this boy can "get it". "lad"... interesting, have you already placed yourself in a position of authority or superiority? I haven't been called "lad" for years, then again, Iguess it does show the level fo disrespect you have for people in general. Someone writes "Me 18, her 14, should we wait?" and you go "Get raped in jail you scumbag child-molesterer". I say "Hang on, don't judge, lets find out more first" But I am wrong? Let me know when you have joined the "real" world.

I disagree even stronger with you. And from your previous posts, your world view is severely limited to that of an overprotective, paranoid and controlling "father" who believes anyone under the age of 20 (or is anyone under YOUR age?) is some brainless automaton without the cognitive capacity of a domestic dog. Really? Obviously you did not pay attention in class. Girls physically, hormonally and emotionally mature FASTER than boys, this has been well documented by psychologists the world around. I would hazzard a guess in saying that an "average" 14 year old girl probably has the same emotional and mental capacity as an "average" 18 year old boy. That would put them far closer than someone who is 36 and 40. Also... as is usually your style you completely and totally overlook the history that has gotten these people to this point, who they are, what they have done during their time, etc, etc... Once again your magical line in the sand is showing... as is the ignorance. Imagine the THOUSANDS of 30 year olds in this world who still live with their parents, have never had sex, never had a relationship and possibly never even been on a date... In your obfuscating world, these people would for some strange reason despite their social retardedness be more emotionally able to cope with a relationship and sex than say an 16 year old girl who has experienced several during her life and even had sex. Can you explain how it is that in this instance the age difference goes AGAINST your ignorant rules? I can... It is because EXPERIENCE and LIFE HISTORY means far more than age. Usually these are gained THROUGH age... but that is not the rule (as you seem to think). You may treat your children that way, but please refrain from poisoning everyone else with your ignorant views. You may falsely believe your 14 year old daughter is still a child, but you really should have a look out in the REAL world some time to see that this is not the case. For that matter... please define exactly what being a "CHILD" means? What are the limitations on a child? I know children far younger than 14 who drive (they are legally allowed to drive due to living on a farm), I myself managed a business at age 12 and at age 16 people are required to make decisions about their FUTURE that will effect them for the rest of their life. Once again I find your use of the word "child" in such a derogatory and bigotted way very sickening. Over 50% of the world relationships end in divorce... I would hazard a guess that the majority of those are from people who are of similar age... Is that not proof enough that someone your "own age" means nothing? Yes daddy. Mr Authoritarian "GodLike" figure once again is showing his true colours... To the person who posted this topic, understand that Shy Guy has a daughter about the age of 14 and that he is lividly terrified by people such as yourself believing everyone is a predator (especially those older), and that anyone under the age of 18 are mentally handicapped and anyone who treats someone "YOUNGER" than themselves as a human being is some socially retarded hunchback who preys upon younger girls because people their own age rebuke them. Also understand that he has never actually stated the age difference between him and his wife, nor when they met.... probably turn out that they met when he was 18 and she was 16 yet he feels it isn't relevant to this discussion. I wish you and your ignorant views would simply "grow up" as you keep suggesting to everyone else.

Are you saying there is some "rule" which states a relationship that lasts 1 year MUST be hormones? Interesting... can you point out which volume of the encyclopedia this is written? And at what age does a person become an adult? At 21 when the law provides them with the rights to consume legal drugs? Amazing... the world is full of totally different people and yet we all MAGICALLY turn into adults at some pre-determined age. How DARE you insult another person by saying he isn't an adult simply because he doesn't fit YOUR determination of what an adult constitutes... I know of people TWICE his age who would not even bother thinking about whether they are doing the right thing (as he is) and they would simply use and abuse people... They are adults and they STILL show less maturity or consideration. Obviously being bestowed with this magical "adult" status doesn't make one mature. Your ignorance is appauling.

You didn't mention exactly what your ages are but from the tone of it I am assuming you are somewhere around 40 and she in her late teens or early 20's. Were you her first? Or were you one of her first? Something you REALLY have to realise is that when we are young we want to explore, we want to know what is out there and we really don't have an idea what we are after. Most people spend their teen years doing this to some extent, its the reason why so many of those early relationships (if you can even call them that) break up... because we are still formulating our ideas and our goals. I think your fears are bordering a little on the paranoid side though... I wouldn't say she has lost attraction to you, more that this is probably the first time she has experienced the "honeymoon" being over. Those of us who have been in long relationships have a bit more grounding in reality and we realise that while in the beginning everything is new and wonderful, that tends to wear off after a while. She might be going through this. It doesn't mean she is less attracted to you, just that she is used to you, she knows you and the "thrill of the chase" is something she misses. I also don't think she is thinking specifically about someone her own generation, it could simply be someone who shares her own desires and goals. You said that your issues were about financial security. I am getting the impression that perhaps you are in the "settle down" stage of your life, where things like financial security are highly important to you. If this is true then she is probably finding that difficult... you are wanting to settle and build while she is wanting to be free and explore. This could be why someone closer to her own age is more appealing... not because they are her age but because people feed off each other who share simiar outlooks. You really have to ask yourself how strong your relationship is, and exactly how much it means to the both of you. If she has had limited sexual experience in the world then it is understandable her desire to explore that, in fact she probably feels guilty for having those feelings because she is in a relationship with you. You on the other hand might be different... you have done your exporing and you have found what you want, you have found that in her and so you no longer have that desire for "new" things. Is it really fair of you to rob her of her exploration? To take from her those years of her life where she gets to explore new things? Now I am not saying "sit back, let her do it", but you should try to find some compromise that allows her to grow and explore as a person while maintaining your bond of relationship together. Whether that means the inclusion of something in your relationship (being inside the relationship means you SHARE it as opposed to HER experiencing it and you feeling left out), or some flexibility in how she can explore really depends on the both of you. I think it was this reason you found each other... she was internally older and you internally younger. Relationships have a very common pattern... first we notice the things which make us the same and we revel in this similarity. The next stage is the differences, we start to notice those things that differ between us and they stand out. A successful relationship is one that has been through BOTH stages, where they can honestly and openly look at both the similarities and the differences and make a conscious decision that the benefits outweigh the losses. If that cannot be done then the relationship breaks up. She needs to ask herself is the loss of her exploration is outweighed by the benefit of your relationship or not. You need to ask yourself if allowing her a little exploration is outweighed by the benefit of keeping your relationship or not. I think the main thing to focus on is that it is not your fault, you have reached the point many do in relationships where you are "naturally" passing through the second phase. The honeymoon is over (not lost mind you, just not around during this stage), reality is hitting and differences are making themselves known. If you really love her (and I do mean really love her) then you would understand her need to explore more, to experience those things people who have lived longer get the chance to experience and allow her some felxibility in doing so. If she really loves you (Same applies, I mean really loves you) then she will realise that her exploration would hurt you, and that she needs to show you her desires to experience something "natural" and "normal" at her age is in no way a reflection of her love for you. She would then try to incorporate her exploration in your relationship rather than segregate it. In all honesty... the thing which causes the most pain is not WHAT people do... but HOW they do it. Its the fact it is done outside the relationship, excluding your partner that is painful. A person actively seeking to share everything with their partner (including her exploration) will never go wrong if both people truly love each other. I hope it helps... I have been where you are and I know what it feels like, it is hard to let go of the insecurity and fear that you may lose the person you love, and that other people out there can attract their attention... the thing I finally realised is that TRUE love is more than that, true love isn't holding someone back but letting them go. If they are still around then they want to be there... not because they don't have a choice.

One thing I have learned through life is that age while being a "general" indicator, more often than not doesn't relate to people. Anyone can say "young" people are immature and inexperienced and "older" people are mature and have it all together, but in truth you will find many examples of the reverse. I know people who are far younger than me and yet they show a maturity beyond their years... and I also know people who are older than myself who are inexperienced, compeltely naive and sometimes act very childish. What you should look at instead of the age difference is your life histories. You have mentioned absolutely nothing about who you both are... all you did was state ages (This could mean you yourself see the age gap as a problem). Are you a mature 20 year old? have you had many relationships before? Is this your first major one? Is he a mature 38 year old? Does he act as if life is over and he is "winding down" or does he act like most 20 year olds and wants to get out there and enjoy life? Is it his first major relationship? All of these questions will give you a far BETTER insight into whether the relationship will work or not... and it will certainly give you far more insight than simply going 38 - 20 = 18 thereforeeeeeee = problems. To answer one of your questions "Would it feel the same for him as it does me?", his history (and yours) will answer that. If this is your first relationship, or you have not had many then you will be full of enthusiasm and have that wonderful feeling of ellation. For you it is a fairly new experience and you may approach it with wild abandon. If however you have had a few relationships before, perhaps even been burnt then you would approach it totally differently. You may be more cautious or worried than enthusiastic. The same goes for him. If he has had relationships before then his enthusiasm may not be as high as someone who hasn't... and if he has had some bad relatiosnhips then he may be more cautious than over the moon. Of course chances are because of your ages (here is where the "generalization" comes in), you are still new at relationships and he may have had a few. If both of you are following this "standard" pattern (ie you are both typical for your age) then while he may not be as enthusiastic or as "walking on clouds" as you may be, it doesn't mean he is incapable of caring or loving you the same as you are him... he will just experess it differently. Reality tends to reach us as we get older and while our first experiences are all romantic and new, the more relationships we have the more we realise the truth of it. That you have to work at them, that you have to MAKE them work and that love does NOT conquer all. I think the main point is to not avoid any topics of discussion, be as open and as honest as you can be, get to know HIM as a person, find out his past relationships, if he was hurt, where he sees himself heading now and then compare that to yourself. If you both share the same interests and purposes, if you both are looking in the same direction then your relationship will be a lot easier. The main problem with age gap relationships is that people who are "typical" for their age are at different stages of life, they want different things. The young want to go out and party, the old want to settle down. It is this difference (and not the age gap itself) that is what can cause problems. Let me know how you go

The one thing you have not mentioned is whether you have discussed this with your wife at all. Have you spoken with her honestly and genuinely about the fact you are not happy? Have you given her an opportunity to help resolve the problem? All too often, people get to a point where they are not happy... yet it doesn't occur to them to actually try to sort it out. I can understand how this happens... its as if you reach a point where talking or even approaching the subject seems to be more trouble than it is worth, or you believe that if you did approach your partner they would not be understanding or would even make you feel bad for asking. The fact you have started doing this means you should ask yourself a question... "Should I be in this relationship?" If you are at a point where you have exhausted all alternatives, or you have attempted to talk with your partner several times and it has failed, then you MUST question the relationship completely. At this point you should leave... and you should leave BEFORE you do anything. While the two of you may not get on, or not be suitable that doesn't mean you disrespect and destroy the other person by being unfaithful. You say you love her... but I challenge this! If you love her then you wouldn't hurt her, you would either talk to her to resolve the situation or you would end the relationship ammicably before seeking to fulfill your needs elsewhere... it is only fair and the moral thing to do. "completely"... This would indicate that you have been unfaithful to some extent. That means you have already done things which break the agreement you had with your wife, the agreement which you gave honestly and fairly. You know in your heart it would only hurt her and you know in your heart that it would hurt her even more knowing an affair was involved rather than just the sad parting of two people who were not meant to be together. Then tell her, if what you say below is true, and you truly love her then sit down and tell her that you are unsatisfied, explain to her how you are feeling and ask her to help in making it better. If you are in the situation where you have tried this several times to no effect, then the next step is to tell her in greater detail. Tell her not only are you unsatisfied but that this unsatisfaction is making you feel attracted elsewhere, and that if this is not resolved then it would destroy your relationship. Be honest, be truthful... tell her that you would like things to be better between you but the way things currently are mean you cannot go on. I am sorry but "love" and "selfishness" simply don't go together... you cannot love someone who is doing nothing but feeding an insecurity you have. That isn't love, it is a pale shadow of the reflection love once cast... but it most definitely isn't love. You have reached the point a lot of people reach in relationships, where we start to justify our acts of gaining things for ourselves as being more important than the love we share with our partner... most people even blame their partner for it happening, saying it wouldn't have happened if their partner had just "given" them what they wanted. The sad fact is that its simply a matter of selfishness... you want something else, but you are not prepared to take the steps to get it, you hedge your bets and seek to have the thrill of something new while maintaining the security of your wife. Ask yourself a question... if she was doing exactly the same thing to you... how would you feel? Would you think it unfair of her to hold onto you as security while seeking her affections elsewhere? Would you think it unfair she didn't give you he "chance" to fix the relationship? Would you prefer she ended the relationship nicely? Or end it as a result of saying "I am having an affair and I am leaving you"? Its simple : 1. Talk to her 2. Tell her if things don't improve you are breaking up One of the following will happen : A. Things don't change, she doesn't work to make it better. You break up and you can persue anyone you want. or B. Things change, you both work on your relationship and make it better. You are both happy, you are both satisfied and life is great. Any other option will only hurt her beyond belief and will bring her pain for the rest of her life... Do you want to be responsible for that?

The one thing you have not mentioned is whether you have discussed this with your wife at all. Have you spoken with her honestly and genuinely about the fact you are not happy? Have you given her an opportunity to help resolve the problem? All too often, people get to a point where they are not happy... yet it doesn't occur to them to actually try to sort it out. I can understand how this happens... its as if you reach a point where talking or even approaching the subject seems to be more trouble than it is worth, or you believe that if you did approach your partner they would not be understanding or would even make you feel bad for asking. The fact you have started doing this means you should ask yourself a question... "Should I be in this relationship?" If you are at a point where you have exhausted all alternatives, or you have attempted to talk with your partner several times and it has failed, then you MUST question the relationship completely. At this point you should leave... and you should leave BEFORE you do anything. While the two of you may not get on, or not be suitable that doesn't mean you disrespect and destroy the other person by being unfaithful. You say you love her... but I challenge this! If you love her then you wouldn't hurt her, you would either talk to her to resolve the situation or you would end the relationship ammicably before seeking to fulfill your needs elsewhere... it is only fair and the moral thing to do. "completely"... This would indicate that you have been unfaithful to some extent. That means you have already done things which break the agreement you had with your wife, the agreement which you gave honestly and fairly. You know in your heart it would only hurt her and you know in your heart that it would hurt her even more knowing an affair was involved rather than just the sad parting of two people who were not meant to be together. Then tell her, if what you say below is true, and you truly love her then sit down and tell her that you are unsatisfied, explain to her how you are feeling and ask her to help in making it better. If you are in the situation where you have tried this several times to no effect, then the next step is to tell her in greater detail. Tell her not only are you unsatisfied but that this unsatisfaction is making you feel attracted elsewhere, and that if this is not resolved then it would destroy your relationship. Be honest, be truthful... tell her that you would like things to be better between you but the way things currently are mean you cannot go on. I am sorry but "love" and "selfishness" simply don't go together... you cannot love someone who is doing nothing but feeding an insecurity you have. That isn't love, it is a pale shadow of the reflection love once cast... but it most definitely isn't love. You have reached the point a lot of people reach in relationships, where we start to justify our acts of gaining things for ourselves as being more important than the love we share with our partner... most people even blame their partner for it happening, saying it wouldn't have happened if their partner had just "given" them what they wanted. The sad fact is that its simply a matter of selfishness... you want something else, but you are not prepared to take the steps to get it, you hedge your bets and seek to have the thrill of something new while maintaining the security of your wife. Ask yourself a question... if she was doing exactly the same thing to you... how would you feel? Would you think it unfair of her to hold onto you as security while seeking her affections elsewhere? Would you think it unfair she didn't give you he "chance" to fix the relationship? Would you prefer she ended the relationship nicely? Or end it as a result of saying "I am having an affair and I am leaving you"? Its simple : 1. Talk to her 2. Tell her if things don't improve you are breaking up One of the following will happen : A. Things don't change, she doesn't work to make it better. You break up and you can persue anyone you want. or B. Things change, you both work on your relationship and make it better. You are both happy, you are both satisfied and life is great. Any other option will only hurt her beyond belief and will bring her pain for the rest of her life... Do you want to be responsible for that?

I would much rather be known as someone who is blatantly honest than someone who gives false sentiments they do not believe in. I guess I just wasn't expecting such bigotry. That is a very interesting statement you made... and one that I had hoped you would have given. How did it feel to have me talk about you in that way? To say those things? I have read several of your responses to other people and time and time again you tell these people what they should and shouldn't be doing, how wrong what they are doing is and that they don't have a clue about their own lives due to their age. Now here you are saying that I know nothing about you and thus what I say means nothing to you... does that mean you are a hypocrit? Is it ok for you to tell other people that their age makes them sub-human? Yet someone points out somem things to you and its the "you don't know me!" response? Most extremely young children give responses like "you don't know me". Hopefully now you realise that just as I have absolutely no clue about you or your life and that my assessments are "wrong"... your opinions and ideas about what other people should be doing is JUST as flawed. Maybe now you wont be so quick to judge other people.... I doubt it though, I am sure you have some how managed to rectify it in your mind that I am wrong, you are right and that you are justified in dictating what age is considered "old enough", and what magical age gap is considered "feasible" Interesting assessment, I guess I could also brainstorm the possibilities that you are not a father and don't in fact have children. But to reduce everything I have said to a means of entertainment I think only shows your contempt for anyone besides yourself. I only rebuke what needs rebuking, I agree with what needs agreeing. That you have taken the view that I am automatically going to take the opposite view to you means that you have internally labelled me as being irrational with some ulterior motive. Once again you show your ability to judge people... and always they are in the wrong. Are you ever in the wrong? Or is that the "father" in you coming out? The only "victory" I am looking for is to pry your eyes open enough and soon enough so that you do not damage the lives of your own children. Now you can consider that a lie if you will and you can ignore it also (which you probably are)... but think on this... If you even remotely consider fatherhood to be a serious responsibility, can you afford to ignore everything I have said out of hand with out at least having an internalization to see if there is at least SOME truth in what I have said? If I fail to take your assessments of me and self-analyse myself to determine if there is truth in what you say then I only hurt myself, my girlfriend leaves and has her family for support and nobody but myself loses. If however YOU fail to self-analyse, then your family suffers, your children suffer... and all because you were to "man" enough to even consider that there may be some truth to it. Are you willing to risk the lives of your children on that? Do they mean so little to you that you wouldn't have a good, hard and long look at yourself just to re-affirm your beliefs and ideals? I'm not asking for a miracle, but if there is even 1/10th of what I think I see in you then your children will one day hate you and they will suffer as a result of your domination over them. How about thinking of THEM and not yourself?

That is true... obviously fatherhood robs a person of some of their sensibility and makes them "lose" maturity in the way they act when the person involved hits a little too close to home and strikes a similarity to one of your children. I would have thought that as a rational, well educated, "adult" and mature individual you would not have acted out of ignorance and that you would allow a person to stand on their own merrits, to get to know THEM for who they are and find out the TRUTH rather than making an instant and ignorant assumption that they MUST be some form of predator. Of course making that ignorant assumption would probably mean you are right 9 times out of 10.. I am not denying that, but that still means 1 person in 10 is being abused and unfairly treated by you. As a human being you have a responsibility NOT to jump to such conclusions simply because its more efficient or correct more often than not. About the divinity thing though... you certainly sounded like you were the one who held within your hands the instruction book on life, packed full of formulae and markers that were universally accepted as being absolute tests by which everyone should live. Yet you don't... you are human like the rest of us and there are no absolutes. What we have left is the fact that we have to take EVERYTHING on a case-by-case basis... we reject things not because they fail our own personal "levels"... but because we fairly, honestly and genuinely looked at something for what it is and have definate reasons for the rejection. You don't do this. Then you would be wrong and the reason for your error is again a false assumption based purely on your own bias and nothing on facts and reason. Here is your false premise. What angered me had nothing to do with the validity of my relationship, because I understand with perfect clarity that someone on the opposite side of the world, with nothing but a few hundred words to go by is simply not capable of validating or invalidating another persons relationship. Why then would I get angry knowing full well you have no such capability? What angered me was your ignorance, it was the fact that you believe with 100% absolute and unwaivering faith that YOUR views are the views everyone else should hold. I got angry that you try to force everyone else to work by your standards and that this ignorance WILL cause harm to your very own children and you cannot see it. If you were to know me as a person you would come to understand the things which anger me... and ignorance, dominance, forced subjegation, automatic superiority and similar things anger me... all of which you have demonstrated with the posts I have read. That would be a very ignorant thing to believe wouldn't it? I dont feel it is beyond question, in fact I am more than happy for it to be questioned at any level and in any way because I am perfectly happy in being put up to rigourous interrogation to show that my intentions in the relationship are noble. What will not stand however, is someone who has absolutely no knowledge of a person, DEMEANING her by saying she is a "child" and that she is fit for no more than "babysitting". How DARE you belittle and demoralise a person by basically telling them they are not a "whole" human being, that they are limited and that simply because of their age their capabilities are restricted to caring for young children! To think that you would do this to your own children is criminal. You are a father and you have a child who is at a stage of life where her ENTIRE future will be effected. The formation of her mind, her personality, the understanding of her strengths and weaknesses will ultimate build the foundation for the rest of her existence. Are you saying she is STRONG and CAPABLE, that she can do anything she wanted because she is blossoming into the FULL understanding of what it is to be an individual PERSON? No... you tell her she is a CHILD, that she shouldn't expect anything more than babysitting, that she probably isn't capable of much more, she should just forget the fact she is an indivual and defer all of her decisions and all of her free will to YOU... why? Because your "Father", because you know better, because you are an ADULT and she is a CHILD. What you are doing is the slow, insinuous and systematic DESTRUCTION of your childrens future... and you don't even see it. So you wonder why I am angry? I think you need to take the "log" out of your eye before you start looking for "sticks" in mine. Do not patronise me, you have absolutely no such wish... to say so only proves your deception and the desire to appear as if you are noble when you are not. The only people who have ever exhibited these traits have been those who are completely ignorant and who do not have the perspicacity to even bother to try to understand (much like yourself). Both of our families are absolutely over the moon with our relationship. Sure in the beginning there were concerns, that is only natural, but the more people took the time to overcome their bias and to see what it truly was the more they realised their initial impressions were wrong. But I have to ask... do you expect everyone to make their decisions based on how other people think? Is that how you live your life? Do something and if too many OTHER people don't like it then stop it because others are incapable of understanding? And what else do you draw the line at? What other "features" draw whispers behind backs and awkward silences? Inter-racial relationships? Gay relationships? He has a nose ring, she has a tattoo, he works in garbage disposal, she isn't from our "class"... Can you not see where this is going? Its bigotry and you are fueling it. The only person who has difficulties is my sister. All of my other friends consider and treat her exactly as she is, another human being the same as everyone else. Some of her less than mature friends have problems with it (does this mean your maturity is at their level I wonder?), and some of their parents are like you... they have never met me yet they are quick to make judgement. I wouldn't be who I am if I did not respond... and yes it is negative because it DESERVES to be negative. I am not about to praise someone for their 18th century mentality and their blatant bigotry and ignorance am i? As for it being vicious it is very simple. If I am unjustly or unfairly vicious to you then please explain where and why. If I believe I have then I will make a genuine appology for having done so... but perhaps you deserve vicius? Perhaps the fact that your views, your opinions and that these will greatly influence the stability and strength of your own children mean you SHOULD receive vicious? You certainly do a good job of putting everyone else down and telling them they shouldn't be doing this or that.. what makes you think you don't deserve something back? The problem is that you have triggered a mechanism in me, when I see people who do not have the ability to fight for themselves (ie your children) being abused and subjegated then I will feel the need to provide them that ability they lack. With all of my friends and everyone I have known (including my girlfriend) I make it absolutely known that they have all the rights in the world, that they are equal human beings the same as the person next to them and that they do not have to endure anything that would cause them harm or pain. You however take the "I am LORD, you do what I say" path and that is what has triggered my response. What gives you the right to treat your children that way? The fact you provided sperm during a moment of lust? Is that what fatherhood is? Some eternal right to subjegate your offspring because it was a "side-effect" of a moment of sexual gratification? I seriously think you need to understand what it is to be a father, the fact its a PRIVILEDGE and not a right, its something you should cherrish and not something you should throw around like a bully simply because there is nobody "bigger" or "stronger" that can stop you.

No it isn't.... but I believe this situation would happen if they were both 23 or if they were both 48. Their age difference probably has very little effect on anyone other than the families considering the other problems they are dealing with. I honestly do not understand how this is any different for anyone? Nobody knows the future, none of us knows if we will be able to walk tomorrow, or if we will be hit with a debilitating disease. I am sure many 60 year old people would struggle to deal with sex-difficulties, it certainly isn't just a problem for 23 year olds. As far as the mental condition goes, if he didn't have his own problems, if he was an intelligent, articulate and self-motivated 23 year old then I would say he has every capability of dealing with a person who has problems... but he isn't. Again that has nothing to do with age and everything to do with the fact he has serious problems and so does she. A 48 year old woman is less likely to do this than a 23 year old woman would. Why? because when someone ages they realise fewer people may want them, a 23 year old women would perceive herself as having life ahead of her (more so than 48) and thus would be more likely to toss someone aside knowing others out there would want them. If first relationships seldom work... then why is it a problem? If you truly believe what you are saying then you know in your heart it wont be long before they break up and you wont have anything to worry about will you? But obviously that isn't what you really think in your heart? I dont think you are over-reacting.. but I think you are placing unfair and unwarrented attention on the age gap. It seems that both families are more worried about the fact there is 25 years difference than they are he has a problem which could KILL him... He obviously has enough problems on his plate with his drinking and self-esteem... the last thing he needs is the entire family against him for his feelings. The bottom line is this... it doesn't matter whether he is right or wrong to be in love or attracted to someone who is 25 years older than he is, because he IS feeling what he feels... you cannot change what he feels. So do you make his life worse, extradite him from his family and take away whatever support he has left to get him through his drinking and self-esteem problems simply because you as the family don't like a choice he made? Or do you put aside your own bias towards THAT aspect of his life and concentrate on helping him with his other problems. If he needs help, if he truly needs a member of his family to help him with his problems, he WONT come to you because he will know the only thing you will do is "lecture" him on his relationship. He is missing out on his family... and NOTHING short of a wilful criminal act should ever stop a family from giving someone their love, their support and to live up to the "unconditional love" statement most families tend to believe. Put the "mommyfigure" aspect on the shelf for now, HELP him with his problems and then take things from there. You don't have to like it, but I think his problems are far bigger than an older woman relationship and he NEEDS family.

Shy_Guy... The first thing I wanted to say is that you are a person of very narrow mind and someone of very large ignorance. Do you ever take situations on a "case-by-case" basis? Or does everything simply come down to if X - Y > Z then BAD? Basically what you are saying is that you have absolutely no knowledge of this person, no knowledge of her maturity, what has brought her to the point of who she is today and yet you INSULT her by throwing around the word "child" as if it is derogatory and that is all she is. When I was 14 I was far more mature than most 30 year olds, several circumstances lead to this... she is very much the same as me. What she has been through, the experiences of her life that have brought her to where she has have given her maturity beyond her years. Yet you "instantly" come back to the same thing? One has to wonder if perhaps there is an experience in your past which makes you react in this irrational manner. Did you have a daughter who went out with someone older? Is this the reason for your pure "venom" for anyone who is older? But let me ask... what IS the exact age that is considered "too young"? If I were 19 there would be 2 years difference... I assume 2 years is ok? What about 3? 4? 8? Please... for the benefit of everyone here, give me your CALCULATION that determines when someone is too young or too old. Define this imaginary line so that everyone can type in their figures and decide if their relationship is wrong based on YOUR rules. (Oh and a copy of your certificate of "Godhood" would also be appreciated... as you are the authority on such things obviously) Interesting... I talk about an insecurity she has and you go on about her doubting our relationship? Mmm... interesting. I dont believe I ONCE said she doubted our relationship... only that because of her history and of this event, she has an insecurity. Obviously you don't care about someone getting over an insecurity, you are more interested in FLAMING someone because they don't measure up to YOUR magical marker line. She is sitting here now and I posed this question to her. Her answer was simply no. She thought about it and said that it wouldn't have mattered if this previous person was 34 or 24... Interesting... can you explain how it is you know the mind of a 17 year old girl far better than a 17 year old girl does? I would be interested to know... how long have you been a 17 year old girl? The only worldview I think that is ENTIRELY different here is YOURS. That your mind is that of a 17 year old girl, in order to give you this MAMMOTH understanding must be difficult to bear in the real world. Well in all honestly, I had far more problems, more "tantrums" and more doubt and quarrels with my "sister" who is 34. While she can display the maturity that most people her age have, her (and most people that I have seen in various social circles) exhibit LESS maturity during times of difficulty. Do you have children? I would be very concerned if you did... being so forceful of your own opinions on them such as saying what they SHOULD and SHOULDN'T be doing with THEIR lives must be a great burden to them I think your right... that is probably what is going through her mind. The funny thing is that the two of you seem to share very similar belief. Both my sister and you would think the same thing in this aspect because both of you are very ignorant and intollerant... believing your own moral levels should be everyone elses. No you don't... you don't wish at all that you could give ANY advice because you have taken great delight in completely ignoring the problem and deciding it was YOUR quest in life to flame anyone that doesn't pass your magic marker. Please show me where I actually expected that? I dont believe I ever said I was expecting her to think anything, I simply wanted some advice on how I may go about helping the person I love, about providing her support and comfort while we are dealing with this situation. Obviously you have read into this what you wanted to, ignored everything that was said and decided it was time to go on your own tirade. If she was YOUR daughter she would be a dribbling wreck. She would be totally insecure, feel completely under your thumb and be convinced that she didn't have a mind of her own and should default to your every whim. If you were her father then yes the two of us would have a very different type of discussion... the discussion would involve me trying to work out why it is you would try to suppress and dominate a human being (And she is a HUMAN BEING not a 'child' as you so often like to insult her with). You say she can't drink legally... well 3/4 of the LEGAL population SHOULD NOT drink as it is... obviously age is not an indicator of ability to be mature and know moderation. She can drive a car, which means she is a responsible and mature human being which the government has granted the acceptance to be responsible enough for her own life and the life of those around her. Yet in your eyes... she is a CHILD and should probably still be playing with her "dollies" in her room until YOU decide what her future holds... Poor girl... I really hope you wake up to yourself one day and realise that people have their own minds, they have their own desires and as long as you do everything within your power to make sure the person is making a mature, informed and well educated decision, then you have done everything you can. You make me sick!

I have a situation that I hope some people can help me with. To provide a clear picture of the situation as it stands my girlfriend is 17 and I am 30, both of us gave very careful consideration before we started going out, we consulted her mother and we sat and talked seriously about all of the implications and difficulties we may have to face as a result of the age difference we have. Her father died of a heart attack just under a year prior and a year prior to this she sadly had to endure a nasty break up of her parents as a result of her father having an affair. (Before anyone asks, yes we have discussed the possibility of the "father figure" playing a role and we both know it must play a small part in some respect). My own story is that I have been in 4 serious relationships and have known and seen various people in between. I had been married once (which we also discussed) and I have fully disclosed to her my entire past and everything I have done. My last girlfriend (34) and I have become good friends (due to a mutual decision to split up), and both of us are only children and find ourselves very much in a "brother-sister" relationship. When I first started going out with my girlfriend (16 months after my last relationship), my "sister" became a little sensitive. I attribute this to the fact she is still single and desperately wishes to be in a relationships, also believing her time is running out. She never believed I would be in another relationship (I had said I didn't want one) and so seeing me in one only brought back the feelings of her loneliness. I explained all of this to my girlfriend and while I wanted them to meet and get to know each other (who wouldn't want their sister to meet the person they love?), I was considerate of my ex's feelings and delayed the meeting. I asked my girlfriend how she was feeling and if it was effecting her and she said she felt a little uncomfortable but was ok with it. About 6 months passed and eventually they met (I did have to get quite angry with my ex considering the amount of time since we had gone out and how it was starting to upset my girlfriend). They have now met several times after that. Recently my girlfriend has told me she doesn't trust me, that she worries about the times I am on my own and while she no longer feels concerned about my "sister" the lack of contact in the beginning has caused enough damage for her to be mistrustful. I have never given her any reason to mistrust me, I have always been open and honest about everything I have done and have always asked her if there is anything I can do to make her feel more comfortable. She tells me that understands her mistrust is unreasonable, and that there is nothing I can do to make her feel better. I am at a loss hwo to help her or what to do... I am now suffering for the fact I have a past and that something which was beyond my control caused damage I cannot fix. Anyone have any suggestions?