Hot Mess Proposal

[Hollyj]

I'll put it to you as simple as possible as to why you're receiving the replies you are.

 

This guys a loser. Your parents know it and from even the small details your wrote on here, is enough for us to know he's a loser.

 

It's mind blowing that you, being a smart woman, keep justifying and convincing yourself that he's worth it. It makes no sense.

 

There really isn't a whole lot more to say than that.

 

Sherry and I, do not hold back. We are not here to tear you down, we are only trying to show you what is obvious. No one seems to support this, other than you.

 

You should not be offended by the low self esteem comment. it was not meant to hurt. Many have low self esteem, I know I did when I accepted my ex into my life.

[itsallgrand]

Because I WANT to be married, lol! Why do most other women want marriage, and why are my reasons unacceptable? On a different note, do you have any insight on the question I posed in my original post?

 

I'm not sure why that question made you lol. It was a relavent question, especially since your main reason ( supposedly) for not staying with him originally was because he can not commit to that.

 

To your original question, I don't think his frantic proposal means anything other than he sees this all as a game. He got back your attention. And maybe he'll get you back in his bed. He's been clear with his actions and who he is that fidelity isn't in the cards. He'll do as he pleases, and unless you intend to keep hustling to get scraps of attention, he won't bother.

 

Something my mom instilled in me comes to mind here. This man, he basically treats you like a hooker. There are men like that in the world, sure, of course. The solution to that 'reality' though isn't to treat yourself like one. And I say this with no disrespect intended at all. But this idea that men are trading in resources and women on feminity/sexuality, that men can't keep their peen under their own control, that women have to resign to the 'reality' that the most she can hope for from a man is resource allotment and princess attention - that's all part of the package of a mentality of women as sex workers essentially. It's how creeps think, it's not to be internalized as Ultimate Truth and Reality nor a way to lead a life !

But here's what my mom said, crystal clear- don't ever treat yourself like a prostitute. That's what it boils down to.

 

You may brush this off as 'critizing your lifestyle'. Hey, it's your life!

 

I just think unless you are interested in the game of hustling for this guy who is no prize, and convincing yourself it's some win that he'd come at you with such lame maneuverings ( this insincere proposal ), and the potential bits of attention and resources he may throw your way, then don't bother. You wouldn't think twice- cause this guy is a joke. He's on the level of the drunken gross dude grabbing your rear at a bar and promising you lobster dinner.

[nyghts628]

Sherry and I, do not hold back. We are not here to tear you down, we are only trying to show you what is obvious. No one seems to support this, other than you.

 

You should not be offended by the low self esteem comment. it was not meant to hurt. Many have low self esteem, I know I did when I accepted my ex into my life.

 

I’m not condoning anything, and I see your points clearly. I’ve pretty much conceded to all your points and everyone else’s (except those points that claim that I’m wrong for wanting a traditional marriage, or that claim I’m wrong for seeing marriage as an institution, or that I’m wasting my education, etc). I’ve already agreed with you on the relevant issues; I’m not sure what else you ladies would like to see from me.

[nyghts628]

I'm not sure why that question made you lol. It was a relavent question, especially since your main reason ( supposedly) for not staying with him originally was because he can not commit to that.

 

To your original question, I don't think his frantic proposal means anything other than he sees this all as a game. He got back your attention. And maybe he'll get you back in his bed. He's been clear with his actions and who he is that fidelity isn't in the cards. He'll do as he pleases, and unless you intend to keep hustling to get scraps of attention, he won't bother.

 

Something my mom instilled in me comes to mind here. This man, he basically treats you like a hooker. There are men like that in the world, sure, of course. The solution to that 'reality' though isn't to treat yourself like one. And I say this with no disrespect intended at all. But this idea that men are trading in resources and women on feminity/sexuality, that men can't keep their peen under their own control, that women have to resign to the 'reality' that the most she can hope for from a man is resource allotment and princess attention - that's all part of the package of a mentality of women as sex workers essentially. It's how creeps think, it's not to be internalized as Ultimate Truth and Reality nor a way to lead a life !

But here's what my mom said, crystal clear- don't ever treat yourself like a prostitute. That's what it boils down to.

 

You may brush this off as 'critizing your lifestyle'. Hey, it's your life!

 

I just think unless you are interested in the game of hustling for this guy who is no prize, and convincing yourself it's some win that he'd come at you with such lame maneuverings ( this insincere proposal ), and the potential bits of attention and resources he may throw your way, then don't bother. You wouldn't think twice- cause this guy is a joke. He's on the level of the drunken gross dude grabbing your rear at a bar and promising you lobster dinner.

 

Haha! These are some great points! Unlike most people, I don’t demonize sex work, though. I don’t demonize much of anything; the scale I live on is mostly “gray”, with obvious and clear extremes. Still, re: your points on Adrian, I really appreciate your insight (and awesome analogies)!

 

One other thing, I don’t necessarily think it’s fair to categorize everyone who takes a transactional stance on love and marriage as a “creep”. Some of us (like myself) are just going off what we’ve seen, and for many others of us, these things are subconscious. That men look for beauty and softness while women value strength and influence, at a base level, is actually not that far off the mark. Most women don’t want losers who live in cardboard boxes while most men also do not want “ugly” women (using that lightly because I don’t believe any woman is truly ugly). I know it’s not the most progressive stance, but I think ignoring that biological inclination (no matter how subconscious it is) is a mistake. Mind, not all of us fall into these dichotomies (masculine-feminine; strength-delicacy; thinking-feeling), but i definitely do. And on my tier, the dynamics are clear for me: man provides, woman nurtures. That makes a LOT of women uncomfortable, but this is just how I’m wired. My thoughts on man’s ability to stay faithful, though, isn’t tied up in that dynamic. It’s tied up in the fact that every married man I grew up watching has cheated. Not sure how to fix that, but I’m trying.

 

Anyways! these thoughts are not directly related to your main points about Adrian; I think you have some great insights that I’ll consider. These are just my tangential thoughts in response to your other mitigating points.

[purplepaisley]

This is just a bizarre situation, and TBH, I don't really trust Adrian at all; however, I would be willing to put in some time just to see if his actions match his words and he is truly committed. Sometimes it takes a loss to realize what you've got, and what you need to do to keep it. After three months, you broached the topic of exclusive. His response was no, and your response was to move on. A month goes by...suddenly he's not only willing to explore monogamy with you, but a proposal? Too much too soon. For a month he has attached himself to the fantasy. You have no idea if he's living in fairy tale land or if you are the one. For that, I think cautious optimism and dating is worth a try. That first year seems to have three-month milestones...from the honeymoon phase to taking it to the next step, and three more months of active dating could shed some light on where his head is at.

 

This is a precarious position, because we love the acts of love and loving gestures. They're a total jerk, then bring flowers or romance you with a night out, or for a couple weeks they are a picture of perfection, and all is well again until he goes and does something that hurts you again. You maintain this roller coaster with second chances, third chances...because they suck you back in. You need to keep your head on and end it if round two appears to be going by the same route as round one. Don't waste years on this roller coaster.

 

Your attitude and beliefs seem really back and forth. You seem to be okay with the idea of playing around as long as you are the one and only at the end of the day...it's only sex. You also want and demand fidelity. You can't have it both ways. I guess you need to figure out what your hill is to die on.

 

Being with one person for the rest of your life is a bit daunting. Adrian said he wasn't sleeping with anyone or pursuing anyone during that first three months, but when the topic came up for exclusivity, he immediately dug his heels in...OMG, he has to close that door...sure, I admit, I can see the anxiety, even if he truly wants you. You had an ultimatum. Now, you don't want someone who's feeding you platitudes so he can keep his cake and eat it too, so this is where continued dating and "seeing how things go" come into play. Just don't get lost on the shiny baubles he offers you while he goes about a double life.

 

You sound perfectly confident and capable of cutting the cord if it's not working for you, but we can all be so stupid when we get wrapped up in love and emotions and second chances, and sometimes we get broken, which makes it harder to leave or we don't see the signs; the glaring, blinking, warning signs. Be cautious. If you want to see where this goes, please be cautious. I have had my fair share of guys ghosting and coming back out of the woodwork, and the second time doesn't fare better than the first, but for me, pursuing that second try was for me, not him, because I don't want to look back and wonder what could have happened if I didn't try, but I have had the ability to let it go when I see that pattern re-emerging...so far, though I don't always make the best choices, either.

 

The "honeymoon phase" phases out after about two months, so I think if you pursue this guy a bit more, after another two-three months, you'll have a more defined idea of who he is, what he wants, what you want; he made the decision he wants to marry you (I wouldn't hang my socks on this gesture), so what we need to see is if this is something that sticks, long-term....his actions and behaviors. Also, make a defined choice on monogamy or polyamory...you can't float in the middle of the road on this one.

[Annia]

Ok but accepting a proposal from a guy who you've just dating for months and considering all the red flags you've mentioned, no matter what your views are on marriage, I don't know why you're entertaining this idea.

[Wiseman2]

Is this a sugar baby/sugar daddy arrangement? Did you meet on that site?

I like dating older men. he's financially stable.

asking me about my desired ring size, rock, setting; promising to move back with me to the East coast when I graduate; saying we can get a house; promising to take care of me, etc.

[Jibralta]

I think that nyghts628 is not dumb. But she doesn't make a lot of sense in her arguments. I think she likes to fancy herself controversial and has become preoccupied with it to the point of senselessness.

[Writinggal]

Hi Nyghts,

 

I have a hard time understanding how a woman like you who is educated and has a practical head for business can be so reckless about sex and relationships. I think this is sad. There are plenty of good men out there, but you are not likely to attract good men until you straighten out your life outside of school and business. Adrian does not sound like a reliable person, and you need to make up your mind about polyamory and monogamy. You also have your child to consider. Do you want your child to be exposed to an unhealthy relationship? Your relationship with Adrian sounds extremely unhealthy. Sex may be just "sex" in your mind, but it can lead to pregnancies and diseases. In addition, you may not take it seriously, but the people who you get involved with can become emotionally involved. I am personally glad to be in a monogamous relationship.

[abitbroken]

I forgot who posted it, but the idea that "men will play the field until they find the right woman.." Doesn't hold water here. If he were 20, I would totally be behind the idea that he doesn't want commitment, the suddenly meets the right woman...and lose her and then grow up pretty quick ... but a man who is at least in his 50s knows whether he has the desire to be married again. He knows going into dating whether he is hoping to meet his future wife, or whether he is just having a little fun. Some men may not be sure - they are positive about marriage/relationships but don't know if they would meet someone and that's ok - they are not actively and aggressively looking, but when a man tells you *up front* what they are into and its not monogamy *LISTEN* - you can "see where it goes" with a 22 year old but a 50+ guy with kids knows who he is.

 

So be careful -- the attention might be appealing to you -- but there are tons of great guys out there who are sincere.

[nyghts628]

Is this a sugar baby/sugar daddy arrangement? Did you meet on that site?

 

LOL! No, not at all. I have access to such men, but Adrian is not one of them. He just happens to be an older man with money (because that's the kind of man I like to date). But we've had that discussion, and he considers (considered) me his woman... not his sugar baby.

[nyghts628]

I think that nyghts628 is not dumb. But she doesn't make a lot of sense in her arguments. I think she likes to fancy herself controversial and has become preoccupied with it to the point of senselessness.

 

Nope! I don't need controversy for shock value. Everyone else here seems to think my views on rships (i.e. being more traditional / kept, the fact that most men like and enjoy variety, etc) are controversial, but I do not. I know my view on rships is different, but I'm honestly not on here trolling. I'm a real person who holds real views, who is genuinely confused about a man's intentions towards me, and this is a man I love. I came on here for genuine feedback, and I have graciously thanked everyone who has come on here to give it. Not trying to be cute in the least. :-)

[nyghts628]

Hi Nyghts,

 

I have a hard time understanding how a woman like you who is educated and has a practical head for business can be so reckless about sex and relationships. I think this is sad. There are plenty of good men out there, but you are not likely to attract good men until you straighten out your life outside of school and business. Adrian does not sound like a reliable person, and you need to make up your mind about polyamory and monogamy. You also have your child to consider. Do you want your child to be exposed to an unhealthy relationship? Your relationship with Adrian sounds extremely unhealthy. Sex may be just "sex" in your mind, but it can lead to pregnancies and diseases. In addition, you may not take it seriously, but the people who you get involved with can become emotionally involved. I am personally glad to be in a monogamous relationship.

 

"Reckless" how? Where is the recklessness here? Naive, sure. Dumb, fine. Confused, absolutely. But where am I being reckless? There is no chance of me being pregnant (he has a vasectomy), and he's been dating me exclusively (so he says) since we met (despite the fact that he did not want to commit), and my child hasn't even met this man.

 

You're right in that I have to make my mind up, and I will. Love and relationships are never cut and dry, and there are literally millions of women out here just like me with different situations who are trying to figure things out. If that weren't the case, none of us would even be on enotalone. So, I appreciate your contribution; it's helping me towards my desired clarity.

[nyghts628]

I forgot who posted it, but the idea that "men will play the field until they find the right woman.." Doesn't hold water here. If he were 20, I would totally be behind the idea that he doesn't want commitment, the suddenly meets the right woman...and lose her and then grow up pretty quick ... but a man who is at least in his 50s knows whether he has the desire to be married again. He knows going into dating whether he is hoping to meet his future wife, or whether he is just having a little fun. Some men may not be sure - they are positive about marriage/relationships but don't know if they would meet someone and that's ok - they are not actively and aggressively looking, but when a man tells you *up front* what they are into and its not monogamy *LISTEN* - you can "see where it goes" with a 22 year old but a 50+ guy with kids knows who he is.

 

So be careful -- the attention might be appealing to you -- but there are tons of great guys out there who are sincere.

 

Thanks for the feedback!

[nyghts628]

I wouldn't wait around. If he's poly that won't change and nor should it. Being polyamorus is no different than any other lifestyle choice people make and in many cases it's not something they either can or want to change.

 

Poly relationships can be very successful with other poly people who know and understand the lifestyle. I have many friends who are poly and in happy strong relationships - in some cases marriages with their primary partner and other side relationships.

 

This guy told you who he was. You are not looking for ethical non monogamy and that's perfectly fine. It's not for you just like monogamy is not for him. You are fundamentally incompatible which is a shame but I don't think anything can be done to change that.

 

I would take his proposal with a grain of salt. Anybody who is truly poly will not be able to change so easily. Thinking he will is foolish especially given how old he is. You might not think the age difference matters but if nothing else it's given him ample time to figure out who he is and what he wants and doesn't want. That's unlikely to change in a month

 

I think you're better off leaving this guy and starting fresh.

 

And no, not all guys sleep with tons of women before settling down. My husband didn't feel the need to do that.

 

When someone shows you who they are, trust that.

 

Thanks so much for your objective feedback. I really appreciate it.

[nyghts628]

This is just a bizarre situation, and TBH, I don't really trust Adrian at all; however, I would be willing to put in some time just to see if his actions match his words and he is truly committed. Sometimes it takes a loss to realize what you've got, and what you need to do to keep it. After three months, you broached the topic of exclusive. His response was no, and your response was to move on. A month goes by...suddenly he's not only willing to explore monogamy with you, but a proposal? Too much too soon. For a month he has attached himself to the fantasy. You have no idea if he's living in fairy tale land or if you are the one. For that, I think cautious optimism and dating is worth a try. That first year seems to have three-month milestones...from the honeymoon phase to taking it to the next step, and three more months of active dating could shed some light on where his head is at.

 

This is a precarious position, because we love the acts of love and loving gestures. They're a total jerk, then bring flowers or romance you with a night out, or for a couple weeks they are a picture of perfection, and all is well again until he goes and does something that hurts you again. You maintain this roller coaster with second chances, third chances...because they suck you back in. You need to keep your head on and end it if round two appears to be going by the same route as round one. Don't waste years on this roller coaster.

 

Your attitude and beliefs seem really back and forth. You seem to be okay with the idea of playing around as long as you are the one and only at the end of the day...it's only sex. You also want and demand fidelity. You can't have it both ways. I guess you need to figure out what your hill is to die on.

 

Being with one person for the rest of your life is a bit daunting. Adrian said he wasn't sleeping with anyone or pursuing anyone during that first three months, but when the topic came up for exclusivity, he immediately dug his heels in...OMG, he has to close that door...sure, I admit, I can see the anxiety, even if he truly wants you. You had an ultimatum. Now, you don't want someone who's feeding you platitudes so he can keep his cake and eat it too, so this is where continued dating and "seeing how things go" come into play. Just don't get lost on the shiny baubles he offers you while he goes about a double life.

 

You sound perfectly confident and capable of cutting the cord if it's not working for you, but we can all be so stupid when we get wrapped up in love and emotions and second chances, and sometimes we get broken, which makes it harder to leave or we don't see the signs; the glaring, blinking, warning signs. Be cautious. If you want to see where this goes, please be cautious. I have had my fair share of guys ghosting and coming back out of the woodwork, and the second time doesn't fare better than the first, but for me, pursuing that second try was for me, not him, because I don't want to look back and wonder what could have happened if I didn't try, but I have had the ability to let it go when I see that pattern re-emerging...so far, though I don't always make the best choices, either.

 

The "honeymoon phase" phases out after about two months, so I think if you pursue this guy a bit more, after another two-three months, you'll have a more defined idea of who he is, what he wants, what you want; he made the decision he wants to marry you (I wouldn't hang my socks on this gesture), so what we need to see is if this is something that sticks, long-term....his actions and behaviors. Also, make a defined choice on monogamy or polyamory...you can't float in the middle of the road on this one.

 

I forgot to thank you, but thus far, this is the most balanced and helpful response I've gotten. Completely objective and honest, not painting fairy tale endings, located in pure facts and not assumptions, but also devoid of judgment and vitriol. I REALLY appreciate your time and energy, and I will definitely take all your points into account. Thanks so much for keeping it real (for better and worse)!

[maew]

If it were me I would be suspicious too.... he agreed to ALL your demands and to change his ways in one month?? It makes no sense.

 

If it were me I would want to see how things progress and if he follows through on his commitments to me before I agreed to marry him.

[bluecastle]

Been late to this one.

 

I’ve admittedly skimmed a bit, but my two cents: just keep exploring this, but from a less fantastical standpoint.

 

Neither of you quite know what you want, save for not losing the other. Explore that, without all the all-or-nothing nonsense. That’s really just your mutual fears and hang ups surfacing as wild drama and psycho-sexual-philosophical gamesmanship.

 

Ditto all the poly talk. He’s not poly, neither are you. You’re both independent, highly sexual adults trying to reconcile those urges with equally primal ones: for security, for connection, for sustained intimacy. I’m a member of the same club.

 

You don’t want to mess up and get hurt or hurt someone. You don’t want to feel boxed in, trapped. Newsflash: that means you’re both just human beings, flailing around, trying to figure it out. Get real and own that—together, rather than going to side pieces to quell the anxiety—and I suspect there’s some more sweetness and connection to cultivate.

 

Does that all lead to nuptials? Who the f knows? At three months it shouldn’t matter. What I’d be trying to figure out is if y’all can drop the games and sword play and be a bit more real and vulnerable together and still make some fire. I’m optimistic that you can, and that there are some lessons there.

[nyghts628]

If it were me I would be suspicious too.... he agreed to ALL your demands and to change his ways in one month?? It makes no sense.

 

If it were me I would want to see how things progress and if he follows through on his commitments to me before I agreed to marry him.

 

Thanks bunches for your feedback! It’s super helpful.

[nyghts628]

Been late to this one.

 

I’ve admittedly skimmed a bit, but my two cents: just keep exploring this, but from a less fantastical standpoint.

 

Neither of you quite know what you want, save for not losing the other. Explore that, without all the all-or-nothing nonsense. That’s really just your mutual fears and hang ups surfacing as wild drama and psycho-sexual-philosophical gamesmanship.

 

Ditto all the poly talk. He’s not poly, neither are you. You’re both independent, highly sexual adults trying to reconcile those urges with equally primal ones: for security, for connection, for sustained intimacy. I’m a member of the same club.

 

You don’t want to mess up and get hurt or hurt someone. You don’t want to feel boxed in, trapped. Newsflash: that means you’re both just human beings, flailing around, trying to figure it out. Get real and own that—together, rather than going to side pieces to quell the anxiety—and I suspect there’s some more sweetness and connection to cultivate.

 

Does that all lead to nuptials? Who the f knows? At three months it shouldn’t matter. What I’d be trying to figure out is if y’all can drop the games and sword play and be a bit more real and vulnerable together and still make some fire. I’m optimistic that you can, and that there are some lessons there.

 

WOW, THIS. ALL OF THIS. You articulated so many things that I think I have been trying to, but couldn’t in this thread. Thank you so much for approaching my original post and question with a degree of nuance, and for not demonizing me and my partner. I know that we are not perfect, and I think you are 100% right about what we are going through and trying to accomplish. And I really appreciate your advice. I’m definitely going to meditate on it and just observe the situation and see what happens.

[itsallgrand]

It sounds like you already know what you'd like to do. Good luck! I mean that sincerely.

[nyghts628]

It sounds like you already know what you'd like to do. Good luck! I mean that sincerely.

 

I think I do too! But I couldn’t have gotten here without everyone’s help... SO THANK YOU, ALL!! xoxo

[Wiseman2]

You are going to do whatever you are going to do anyway with or without anyone's input. You want rich older men. Monogamy is unimportant if they meet that requirement and this guy who "proposed" is who you are going to date for a while. So that is the same circumstance/result as your initial post, after 100 or so posts with a lot of OMG! exclamation points!!!! and not much else..

I couldn’t have gotten here without everyone’s help

[nyghts628]

You are going to do whatever you are going to do anyway with or without anyone's input. You want rich older men. Monogamy is unimportant if they meet that requirement and this guy who "proposed" is who you are going to date for a while. So that is the same circumstance/result as your initial post, after 100 or so posts with a lot of OMG! exclamation points!!!! and not much else..

 

Nope. Not even a little bit, Wiseman. And even if that *were* true, then so what? What’s your point? I asked for folks’ opinions and they gave them. Then I’m allowed to take the advice whichever way I choose, which is the point of a forum like ENA. Every single OP on this entire website is going to do whatever it is they want to do at the end of the day. So you’re not really saying much here. It actually just sounds like you’re a little mad that I have particular preferences re: who I date, and you are trying your best to make me out to be a shallow person who does not value other things aside from money... as though dating young broke men somehow automatically makes me a better and more moral person. You have no idea all the things I value, nor do you know the extent to which each quality weighs in my final decision. I already told you that he is not my sugar daddy, and that is not our relationship, and that we actually do love each other, even after you asked that inappropriate and irrelevant question about why Adrian is willing to provide us a traditional lifestyle.

 

So I guess I’m not sure what your point is, except to get the last word on the thread? ::Kanye shrug::

 

Anyways! Having said all of that, I still really appreciate the time that you and others have taken to give feedback. As I mentioned earlier, I will consider all of the feedback as I go forward.

[Wiseman2]

Exactly. Many original posts just go full circle.

So you’re not really saying much here