lingering in orbit, emotional residue

[Morello]

Bluecastle also had to put up with her hooking up with another guy and putting a photo on social media while they were in the early dates. While I applaud for him for acting cool an unaffected, I don't think it's something you can just forget either. It just stays there. I understand they were not exclusive at the time, but the whole social media thing had obviously a meaning. She wanted him to know, so it was a clear manipulative move from her.

 

This is the problem with this chemical attraction and connection we feel with someone. We just ignore the red flags. If you look at this relationship, there were many of them from both sides. But when we're in it, we keep telling ourselves that the connection we feel is more important than everything else because it's rare to find.

 

Those red flags become clearer later, in hindsight. But in the heat of the moment we tend to give them much less importance than they have. Also, I agree with others about this inner 'fear' we have that we won't find (or it will take long to find) another connection as strong as. So it's easy to revisit the feelings and be less rigid about what we really want to have in a relationship just to feel that chemistry and connection back.

[bluecastle]

Maybe this should be for a more generalized thread—moderators, lemme know—because I'm kind of over picking this apart.

 

But I'm kind of curious about what people define as an ex. This is based on Weisman's read of those red flag moments.

 

The woman in Asia. We dated for two weeks five years ago, never slept together. Remained in similar circles in that town, saw each other around, and it evolved into a friendship. Is that really so outside the box?

 

The house I'm in. The woman who rents a room in in it—the house belongs to a man—and I met six years ago, both single, some friends in common. We had sex a few times. We then went about our lives, in different places. Both pretty nomadic—she spends 8 months a year on movie sets. We get a drink when we're in the same town, have a good friendship. Again, is this so strange? (And note: my deal with the house is that I'm NOT sharing it with her; she lives with her bf now, but pays a small part of the rent for storage.)

 

Do most people never, ever talk to someone they've kissed/slept with if it turned out to not have the stuff for romance?

[katrina1980]

 

 

This is the problem with this chemical attraction and connection we feel with someone. We just ignore the red flags. If you look at this relationship, there were many of them from both sides. But when we're in it, we keep telling ourselves that the connection we feel is more important than everything else because it's rare to find.

 

 

Thnx for posting this Morello, so true!!!

 

I'm very guilty of this and have overlooked A LOT all in the name of that ever-so-elusive and rare "chemistry." Thinking back, I shudder when I think of some of the things I tolerated (and actually accepted) that I should not have.

 

Not sure what the answer is though; our emotional brain tends to overrule our logical brain when in the throes. Mine does anyway.

 

M. Scott Peck (A Road Less Traveled) called it a sort of "temporary insanity." I agree with him!

[katrina1980]

bc, your last post -- your justifications make sense and do seem quite "innocent," however what's important is to be aware of how it all appears to whomever you are dating.

 

I mean it was an issue for her as evidenced by her snarky comment "you and all your other women." Remember?

 

From the outside (prior to your disclosing the details), it's questionable at the very least, at most it looks bad; in fact, wrong or right, one of my deal breakers is a man remaining in contact with any of his ex's, unless they have kids together, obviously in that case they have to interact.

 

But yeah what constitutes an ex? Correct me if I am wrong but did you not refer to these women as "ex's" yourself? To her and to us?

 

How things appear to whomever you are dating is important and can have a profound effect on their feelings and behavior, no matter how 'innocent' they actually are.

 

Ex's are a hot button for sure (in general), so I try to be aware of and sensitive to that when embarking on a relationship with a new man.

[bluecastle]

Not sure what the answer is though; our emotional brain tends to overrule our logical brain when in the throes.

 

Let's just roll with this stuff, and get away from the me-stuff.

 

My feeling is—wait for it—that this is a GOOD thing, the way we ignore red flags. I think it's a different sort of logic system that is essential for connection, for experience, with value that extends far beyond romance.

 

Romantic example. Probably my best relationship began with a woman I was friendly with—she had a bf. As friends, we talked a lot about how she was craving independence, wanting to be on her own. Attraction bloomed, sparks flew, we stared connecting on that level. My concern was: sh*t, somewhere in there is a woman craving being on her own, who is now craving being with me. Hard logic says: no, don't go there. Emotional logic says: roll the dice, open the heart, tear off the clothes. The latter got me 3 epic, drama-free years that ended, yes, with her wanting to be on her own. Heartbreak, bit time. But also a great friend, growth, evolution. That's forever, heart's heal—total win.

 

Professional example. I work in a field that everyone says is impossible to work in, especially when you're curious early. People roll their eyes at your naiveté, are almost comically discouraging ("What are you going to do with that degree?"). Too competitive, financially unstable, a recipe for pain. And, yup, it IS all that. it levels blows, daily. But it's also been so rewarding, so intense—and, well, real. Not impossible. Ultimately ignoring those red flags got me everything I wanted from a job: it's thrilling and grounding.

 

Sure, sometimes we overlook some very dangerous red flags that come back to bite us, hard, in romance and out of romance. Those moments help us fine tune that other logic system, but I don't think it's about letting it go. Most relationships do end, be they loving or toxic. Often they end for a reason we saw coming very early, but chose to half-ignore. What are you going to do, you know?

[katrina1980]

bc, you know I can't really disagree with that; my attitude has always been every experience we have, positive or negative, no matter how it ends up (usually heartbreak at least on some level) is good, a brick on our path leading to wherever we're meant to be, if there even is such a place.

 

I'd like to think there is, but I'm beginning to believe that life is just a series of different experiences and simply a journey, with no particular destination, but no less rewarding and exciting.

 

I dunno this "life" stuff can be so hard sometimes, you know?

[boltnrun]

I won't deliberately put myself into a situation that I'm fairly certain will end badly just for the "experience".

 

I HAVE done that in the past and regretted it every time. I didn't need to stay in a relationship with a lying cheater for 4 years. I got nothing positive out of that experience unless you count vowing to never do it again as a good thing. I could have arrived at that conclusion without humiliating myself. I knew two months in but due to low self esteem chose to play the "pick me!" game, to my own detriment.

 

I post on this forum largely because of that experience. Even though everyone on here is a stranger, I would really, really like no one else to go through what I went though. I don't think it is helpful at all to humiliate oneself, to deliberately lower oneself just to try to keep someone not worth keeping, to experience such overwhelming anxiety that I nearly had to be hospitalized, to get to the point where I nearly was incapable of caring for my children. Nothing positive about any of that.

[katrina1980]

I get what you're saying bolt, and I won't deliberately place myself in a situation I know will be hurtful either.

 

Problem is, I just don't know how hurtful it's gonna be until it happens. And I'm a risk taker in dating and willing to take a chance when I feel a strong connection.

 

I actually don't regret any of my experiences, even when they turn out to be hurtful.

 

I think I explained why earlier, I don't fear pain, I embrace and learn from it, grow stronger for having experienced it.

 

Just me, I acknowledge I am a bit of a weirdo. ;)

[ThatwasThen]

My feeling is—wait for it—that this is a GOOD thing, the way we ignore red flags. I think it's a different sort of logic system that is essential for connection, for experience, with value that extends far beyond romance.

... and my feeling is that doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is...etc.

 

To each their own.

[bluecastle]

I hear you too, boltnrun, and I'm really sorry about that chapter.

 

I certainly am not advocating for putting up blinders to "fairly certain it will end badly" in order to have an "experience." If I'm fairly certain something will end badly, I don't do it, never have.

 

Generally speaking, I think (perhaps like K) I have a high tolerance for pain and risk. I was an acrobat from age 5-14, broke lots of bones, but can't recall being "scared" in a way that eclipsed "excited." I'd just be eager for the broken wrist to heal so I could do the thing that broke it again. That's just how I am, in most things I do. Does that read as "reckless"? It might. To me it feels logical, controlled, natural. Most of the time I land on my feet, literally and figuratively. Breaks heal.

 

Romantically, though, it's different. I hedge hard against risk, against pain, my last longterm relationship really being the epitome of that. It was "easy," at least for me, because she was perpetually scared I'd leave her, always reaching out, always there. It had a toxic undercurrent, but the day to day was...fine, at least on my end. Warm and sexy, if a little too meh. When everything she was holding inside came out—yeah, it got nasty, delivered some unexpected hurt. But the solution was easy: I dealt with draining two months of "trying to make it work"—the longest I've spent in that purgatory in my life—and then I ended it.

 

Lesson there for me was not: being cheated on sucks. Lesson was: at least do some real crazy flips to justify the broken wrist.

 

K, when I hear you say you're a "risk taker in dating" I find myself getting jealous, which is maybe the underlying frustration at the root of this situation/thread. I almost long to be the guy who, against all logic, or following that other logic, is not writing about it here while cooly disengaging IRL, but is leaving flowers at her door, throwing caution to the wind, seeing if there's more juice inside the connection. Maybe my writing here gives the impression that that's how I roll—but it couldn't be further. In my mind, maybe. In practice, no, never.

 

In this case, maybe (likely) the wrong person, the wrong time—yeah, yeah. I get it. Still, that's the bigger rub.

[bluecastle]

... and my feeling is that doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is...etc.

 

To each their own.

 

Haha. Well, of course. But there's a line, no?

 

Zoom out too far on that, or cling to it tightly enough, and you go: I tried to date once when I was 17, I got hurt, so now I no longer date.

 

My biggest relationships have been so different—different dynamics, different personalities. If I lined up the women against the wall, played a montage of the relationships, there'd be far more differences in patterns than similarities.

[figureitout23]

... and my feeling is that doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is...etc.

 

To each their own.

 

This.

 

I mean good grief I feel we’ve gone in so many circles over the same subject we could sell the self made track to nascar...

 

A red flag, is a red flag, is a red flag, first post, they were potential, by the second they were definite and now I’m not even sure what’s going on.

 

I feel like the next post is gonna be titled: Were engaged and she’s cheating, if I blow fairy dust in her aura will she fly?

 

I mean come on guys, this abstract thinking is all fun and games until you’re using it as a crutch.

[ThatwasThen]

Well, I think the "pattern" is there if you (the general you) actually look at the dynamic rather than the individual girl/guy you were dating.

 

It all depends on your end dating goal how you choose. If you're happy with ignoring red flags and just enjoying the chemistry then by all means, follow that bliss. However, if you want someone for evva, then one has to be alert to the red flags and discuss with our partner about change. If the red flag behaviour rears its head again, then to hell with chemistry... time to look after one's emotional health and leave so we can keep looking for a LIFEmate who we gel with beyond chemistry.

[catfeeder]

I'm kind of curious about what people define as an ex. [...]

Do most people never, ever talk to someone they've kissed/slept with if it turned out to not have the stuff for romance?

 

Well, I guess there's an ex spouse, an ex partner, and an ex lover.

 

An ex spouse is public information, but how many partners or lovers isn't 'need to know' discussion for me. So if I sometimes cross paths with an ex partner or lover, that's not the same thing as voluntarily having them 'in my life'.

 

I suppose my own rule of thumb about disclosure would be, if the situation were reversed, would I view it as necessary information for me to have? Since my own private rule is that I won't involve myself with anyone who's still 'involved' with an ex, voluntarily, beyond shared children, I'd want to know if any chum, buddy or pal has any sexual history with my date.

 

I get that some exes play friendzies, it's just not something I want to be around. So that's a clear line for me, and I haven't found it to be problematic.

 

As for red flags, my best aim at those is to first have clarity about What I Want. Then I can work backwards from that. So, sure, chemistry and attraction and simpatico are important to me, but my long term vision of matching definitions of respect, loyalty and monogamy with a partner tends to outweigh the sexier stuff.

 

I know myself, and I bond emotionally when I'm sexual. So I've come to learn the importance of being careful about who, exactly, I'll want to bond WITH. Learning where I stand with someone--and where I'll want to stand--is something I'll do before investing sexually, because sleeping first, then asking questions later is the perfect way to land in that stilted limbo pit of discomfort you've described with your last GF.

 

I think getting naked is easy--we can just take off our clothes and have a ball. But getting emotionally naked? That's the stuff I feel a need to be on solid ground to attempt, and if I pull my own rug from under myself by doing pretzels 'around' red flags just to keep exploring beyond them, then I just can't get there.

 

Whenever I've messed with anyone without owning clarity about What I Want, I've made a mess. Figuring out What I Want, first, has served as my best instrument for navigating turbulence. Learning that I already have What I Want from myself has been my biggest liberator from false need, and this has made viewing red flags as self limiting one helluva lot easier.

[greendots]

bluecastle I just have to say it, the way you use words is impressively powerful. There is lots of depth and connection which reels you in. Honestly, I believe words reveal who we are and what we desire in life. And what hasn't been said? That's important, too. Perhaps the answers you are seeking exist in what you have already written.

 

 

I'm kind of curious about what people define as an ex. [...]

Do most people never, ever talk to someone they've kissed/slept with if it turned out to not have the stuff for romance?

 

An ex is someone you had a long-term relationship with. Otherwise you just dated or whatever else. I don't believe in pursuing some past experiences as certain chapters certainly end for a reason. So, in all honesty, keeping loosely in touch (if at all) with some people suffices. With others, experiences dependant, I might connect more. It's not something sought out purposefully, rather it's a natural occurrence.

[Wiseman2]

The woman who broke up with you was upset about the Asia trip for some reason, even though now you claim it wasn't an ex, just a friend. She was also put off by your housing arrangements apparently because she was informed that this was someone you had sex with and still hang out with .

 

"Ex" is a matter of semantics in these cases it doesn't really need a hair splitting debate on the precise definition.. The gist of it is after a turbulent, yet fun few months of adventurous dating there were a lot of incompatibilities, miscommunication and perhaps too much unnecessary sharing of too details of every woman you are friends with, dated, had sex with, etc.

 

Being honest and transparent is great but TMI and listing conquests, lists of all your female friends, etc. to someone you're dating is not. Trying to create an atmosphere of 'so many women, so little time' may seem like it would impress a younger women with your purported prowess, but as you can see, it backfired in this case.

The woman in Asia. We dated for two weeks five years ago, never slept together. The house I'm in. We had sex a few times. We get a drink when we're in the same town, have a good friendship.