Advice needed: Keep an aggressive dog or not?

[Seraphim]

Well, I'm not Dog Whisperer but I don't think its a good idea to lean in to kiss any dog. If they want to lick you in an appreciation and 'love' they will do it without moving in on them.

 

I hope you can find a farm or something where she can keep the barn cats in line and isn't around any kids. If not, then sadly I think there is only one other choice for her. (IMNSHO)

 

Yes it is absolutely not a good move to lean in and kiss the dog . That is an aggressive move in dog language . Never put your face in a dog’s face . My husband did this once with his cousin’s dog and the dog was part husky and part wolf. She dug her top canines into the top of his skull and her bottom canines through his chin . She was going to tear his face off . My husband was not raised with dogs and knows little to nothing about them. I was raised with dogs my entire childhood though .

[ThatwasThen]

The "dog pound" is a bad idea.

Then I suggest she be put out of her nervous wreck misery if the pound can't give her any advice based on their training in such matters.

[j.man]

Yatsue.......I really wish I knew more about her history. The animal shelter that I got her from had no information about her history. I sensed in the beginning that she was nervous and thought that the problem would go away once she became used to us. Most of the dogs I have owned have been rescues, and I haven't done anything differently. It is very possible that she came from an abusive home or was placed in various homes the first year of her life.

You got your dog when it was a year old. That's not even fully developed. I wouldn't be looking for its past as a scapegoat. This dog clearly was not socialized, and, at least from all the details you've given, even if she's got some legit anxiety, it doesn't sound a whole lot more complicated than that. In fact, given you admit most your dogs have been rescues, the problem could have been that you were actually given a relatively clean slate for a dog. Aggression towards humans can be an issue with rescues, but it's far, far, far more likely they've been conditioned to be submissive, which comes with its own plethora of issues. You had a responsibility to socialize and establish boundaries between the dog and people (going both ways). Now you're having people shove their faces in your dog's for a kiss? While you're holding her and denying her egress, no less?

 

I gotta say, though unfortunately not for the reasons I'd like to be, I'm actually a bit more hopeful for the dog. Doing some reading on canine behavior and, while trying my best not to be mean, exercising some overall common sense would likely make a huge difference. It would seem this isn't simply a case of the dog being overprotective in the entire territory of the home, but actively being put into situations that would understandably exacerbate its behavioral issues. I'm not saying I'd ever trust my kid nieces around her, but that would be easy enough to control for.

[Sweet Sue]

"Now you're having people shove their faces in your dog's face for a kiss"........is not what I said. I didn't MAKE my father lean over to get a kiss, which he has done many times before without incident, the only difference this time was that I was holding her and she felt threatened as he was getting to close to me.

My dog has aggressive issues, which complicate matters at home, but she is overly affectionate and playful and happily accepts people into our homes that we accept. The aggression occurs mostly when someone gets to close to me, hugs me or reaches out to me. Typically, she barks and growls to warn. If it happens to quickly and she feels there is no time to warn, she bites! Simply, I have never owned a dog that has anxiety and bites. I have been very lucky in that my rescues have adapted very well and socializes well.

I didn't do anything any different this time and I am not one to every strike a dog. I have attempted to train her when she misbehaves, but not with great success, I am sad to

say......

[Seraphim]

You need to put her in her place. She is not the dominant animal. She thinks she is and therefore is nervous. She needs to understand YOU are the alpha and won’t tolerate her aggression. In nature the alpha would teach her a lesson until she submitted. Locking her in a room and drugging her is not making the connection for her. Watch how a dominant dog disciplines another of the pack. You don’t need to hit her that is wrong but you need to make her submit to the lead dog, ie, you.

[Wiseman2]

Strange. Sounds like a flying monkey more so than a dog.

[thealchemist]

"Now you're having people shove their faces in your dog's face for a kiss"........is not what I said. I didn't MAKE my father lean over to get a kiss, which he has done many times before without incident, the only difference this time was that I was holding her and she felt threatened as he was getting to close to me.

My dog has aggressive issues, which complicate matters at home, but she is overly affectionate and playful and happily accepts people into our homes that we accept. The aggression occurs mostly when someone gets to close to me, hugs me or reaches out to me. Typically, she barks and growls to warn. If it happens to quickly and she feels there is no time to warn, she bites! Simply, I have never owned a dog that has anxiety and bites. I have been very lucky in that my rescues have adapted very well and socializes well.

I didn't do anything any different this time and I am not one to every strike a dog. I have attempted to train her when she misbehaves, but not with great success, I am sad to

say......

All that you have said here makes it very likely it is a doninance issue and you have let your dog think it is the boss over everything. But that the dog isn't a really bad dog.

[Sweet Sue]

Seraphim.......I don't hit animals and never said I did. I sought the advice of my vet and it was his decision to put her on anxiety issues because he believed

she has anxiety, and that is why, in his opinion, she lashes out. I don't know if I will ever get the chance to observe how a dominant dog disciplines another pack,

but I would be interested in learning. All my efforts have failed. Sadly enough.

[thealchemist]

Seraphim.......I don't hit animals and never said I did. I sought the advice of my vet and it was his decision to put her on anxiety issues because he believed

she has anxiety, and that is why, in his opinion, she lashes out. I don't know if I will ever get the chance to observe how a dominant dog disciplines another pack,

but I would be interested in learning. All my efforts have failed. Sadly enough.

Well dominance is simply whose rules are followed.

 

It really isn't about using force to establish pecking order.

 

In the wild that is how animals establish dominance but I don't want to have to tackle my dog and bare my teeth at it every time he steps out of line.

 

It is better established by other means.

 

For instance, when you go to a door and plan to leave, if your dog runs up and expects to jump out before you, that is a lack of clear dominance.

 

If my dogs do that I won't open the door until they back off and they go through only after me.

 

Or establishing where they sleep...

 

My dogs are not allowed on the bed because it can cause dominance issues too.

 

I also do not let them get away with disobeying me because then they think they have the authority to do as they see fit.

 

So if I tell them to leave the room because I am cooking and have food out (which means they can't be around) and they ignore me I don't ever just roll over and ignore it.

 

I make them leave and possibly punish them if they don't do it accordingly. Punishment doesn't mean hit them either.

 

Consistency is key.

[abitbroken]

"Now you're having people shove their faces in your dog's face for a kiss"........is not what I said. I didn't MAKE my father lean over to get a kiss, which he has done many times before without incident, the only difference this time was that I was holding her and she felt threatened as he was getting to close to me.

My dog has aggressive issues, which complicate matters at home, but she is overly affectionate and playful and happily accepts people into our homes that we accept. The aggression occurs mostly when someone gets to close to me, hugs me or reaches out to me. Typically, she barks and growls to warn. If it happens to quickly and she feels there is no time to warn, she bites! Simply, I have never owned a dog that has anxiety and bites. I have been very lucky in that my rescues have adapted very well and socializes well.

I didn't do anything any different this time and I am not one to every strike a dog. I have attempted to train her when she misbehaves, but not with great success, I am sad to

say......

 

If you were holding her -- then she is a small dog. Is she a terrier/chihuaua mix or something like that?

 

Basically, you are describing small dog syndrome. People treat little dogs like dolls. They bite because they get extremely protective of their owner -especially if they are carried around a lot. A friend of mine has a teeny tiny dog that she rescued and she makes the dog go outside to the bathroom like bigger dogs - no pee pee pad. She taught her how to walk on a leash and is expected to walk on her own two feet.

 

It seems that this whole problem can be solved by you PUTTING THE DOG DOWN when its time to say goodbye to people and instruct your guests that when you have the dog, they don't lean into you. Its that simple.

 

Remember - tiny dogs can get nervous easily when people walk around in heavy boots - speak in booming voices or try to grab them.

 

My small dog who was a small mix was the same way --- if someone grabbed me, leaned into me or got into my space while i was ho

lding her - she was owned by an elderly person who treated her like their little doll -- had a purse carrier, they were always on the lap, etc. , so they learned to be very protective. I quickly learned her wavelength and made sure that no one who came over picked her up (if she jumped into your lap while you were on the floor - then you could pick her up, but no other way.) i learned that aside from carrying her down stairs outdoors, she walked and had to behave like the other dogs.

 

 

To me it sounds like your dog is behaving like a dog - and you need to help her by not creating situations where she is scared --- if you are sitting in a chair, imagine her sitting there with someone else's body suddenly comes close to being on top of you (for a hug), and if you are nervous about that hug because the dog is in your lap, the dog picks up on it.

 

I think with some common sense, you will be fine. But you have to use some common sense here.

[Seraphim]

You have to be consistent every single solitary time, like with kids. If not you’re toast.

[Sweet Sue]

Abitbroken............no, she is not a small terrier. She weights around 27 lbs. The reason I picked her up that night was to get her off the bed, but she is not treated like doll.

She is dead weight and not easy to carry around.

I consulted with the vet today and he suggested several things we can try at home, so I am going to give it my best shot.

[Wiseman2]

What did the vet recommend?

I consulted with the vet today and he suggested several things we can try at home.

[Sweet Sue]

Wiseman2...........he put her on prozac, which I am reluctant to give to her. I haven't picked up the script as of yet. I don't like to see animals drugged, but he

feels it is the best, at least for now. The other suggestions were: putting her in isolation after scolding her: ex......"no bite!", and then putting her in a crate for

an hour to start with. Another suggestion was to have her on a choke chain when people visit. The choke chain is for training purposes only using the pull and jerk

motions after giving a command. Then immediately remove the chain from her after training.

What do you think?

[Wiseman2]

Listen to the vet. Or get rid of the dog. Or risk serious injury to your family or visitors, getting arrested (for elderly neglect, documented 2x now by hospitals) and going bankrupt when you are sued for damages by visitors, neighbors etc..

[abitbroken]

Abitbroken............no, she is not a small terrier. She weights around 27 lbs. The reason I picked her up that night was to get her off the bed, but she is not treated like doll.

She is dead weight and not easy to carry around.

I consulted with the vet today and he suggested several things we can try at home, so I am going to give it my best shot.

 

That is still a small dog. To me, anything 30 lbs and under is small when you are used to dogs that are 75-150 lbs all the time.

And if the dog only seems to bite when someone reaches over into YOUR physical space, etc that is very easily remedied by being upfront with guests not to lean in for a hug when you are holding the dog or the dog is close to your body. When people are going to leave, you excuse yourself to put the dog away in her crate or the other room and you hug and kiss and all that stuff. Most dogs I knew growing up were not slobbery goofballs who loved everyone. They were protective of "their kids". One of my relative's dogs won't let anyone get in between him and his person. And the dog is a lovely, sweetheart. At family functions, the dog is put in the other room. Or with close family that knows the dog, the dog likes to be petted and comes and asks for it -- just as long as you are not trying to wedge yourself in between the owner and the dog.

 

I think that you need to also see a trainer - not just a vet -- because a trainer also trains the person to better anticipate and communicate with the dog. The vet has no idea to see how its actually being implemented at home. I hope the vet is suggesting some common sense.

[j.man]

Wiseman2...........he put her on prozac, which I am reluctant to give to her. I haven't picked up the script as of yet. I don't like to see animals drugged, but he

feels it is the best, at least for now. The other suggestions were: putting her in isolation after scolding her: ex......"no bite!", and then putting her in a crate for

an hour to start with. Another suggestion was to have her on a choke chain when people visit. The choke chain is for training purposes only using the pull and jerk

motions after giving a command. Then immediately remove the chain from her after training.

What do you think?

So where's the positive reinforcement in all this? I can understand punitive measures to stop a dog from doing something dangerous or violent, but this is who you raised the dog to be. You can't undo 6 years of failure to socially condition the dog by just sticking it in the kennel for an hour at a time (which is awful, as the dog's not going to have the faintest idea why she's in the cage after only a few minutes). Your dog isn't a bad dog. She sounds like she'd be a good dog if you were elderly and solitary or, as someone else suggested, she were on a farm deterring pests. She just wasn't raised to appropriately handle other people.

 

Hire a trainer. Don't cut corners.

[Batya33]

That is still a small dog. To me, anything 30 lbs and under is small when you are used to dogs that are 75-150 lbs all the time.

And if the dog only seems to bite when someone reaches over into YOUR physical space, etc that is very easily remedied by being upfront with guests not to lean in for a hug when you are holding the dog or the dog is close to your body. When people are going to leave, you excuse yourself to put the dog away in her crate or the other room and you hug and kiss and all that stuff. Most dogs I knew growing up were not slobbery goofballs who loved everyone. They were protective of "their kids". One of my relative's dogs won't let anyone get in between him and his person. And the dog is a lovely, sweetheart. At family functions, the dog is put in the other room. Or with close family that knows the dog, the dog likes to be petted and comes and asks for it -- just as long as you are not trying to wedge yourself in between the owner and the dog.

 

I think that you need to also see a trainer - not just a vet -- because a trainer also trains the person to better anticipate and communicate with the dog. The vet has no idea to see how its actually being implemented at home. I hope the vet is suggesting some common sense.

 

And then I wouldn't have any child over unless the child's caregiver/parent is going to be hovering to make sure the child doesn't inadvertently get too close. Or anyone who can't be reliably trusted to follow that rule. I personally would have no guests over unless the dog is in a crate or another room because it's too easy to slip up and the results could be devastating or at least very annoying (like torn clothing, etc).

[SherrySher]

I opt to have the dog put down. I see no other solution. The second a dog bites there is a huge problem. This dog has bitten more than once and you've tried different things.

My Dad would mean far more to me than a dog who is going to attack him.

No one else is going to want to take on a dog that bites, therefore you've only got one solution. Not what anyone would want, but your poor Dad doesn't need anymore harm done.

[Sweet Sue]

Positive reinforcements happen when she obeys a command. For example, she used to bolt and run when any exterior door was opened. I had to train her to "stay" by

giving her treats when obeys the command. Using negative punishment is removing the dog or isolating an animal that misbehaves and she doesn't like that. The other suggestion the vet recommended was to have her wear a muzzle.

So many things to think about. I don't think she is a bad dog. She just needs better training. We shall see.......

[thealchemist]

Positive reinforcements happen when she obeys a command. For example, she used to bolt and run when any exterior door was opened. I had to train her to "stay" by

giving her treats when obeys the command. Using negative punishment is removing the dog or isolating an animal that misbehaves and she doesn't like that. The other suggestion the vet recommended was to have her wear a muzzle.

So many things to think about. I don't think she is a bad dog. She just needs better training. We shall see.......

Negative reinforcement and punishment are different things.

 

Negative reinforcement isn't very effective with dogs. That is like taking away their toy because they misbehave. This takes higher reasoning.

 

Punishment is isolation or scolding.

 

In my opinion I would never use a choke collar on a dog.

 

All dogs want is to be safe and make their owner happy. That is pretty much it with most dogs.

 

I personally use isolation and a firm "no". Not yelling or anything. I even explain to them what they did and why it isn't ok.

 

I don't yell but they understand that I'm not happy. That has more affect than anything I've used.

 

You can use treats, I personally don't. I used to give treats and praise them a lot but I find they don't care about treats, it is mostly the praise.

 

Unless they are a pretty untamed dog that should be enough.

[abitbroken]

And then I wouldn't have any child over unless the child's caregiver/parent is going to be hovering to make sure the child doesn't inadvertently get too close. Or anyone who can't be reliably trusted to follow that rule. I personally would have no guests over unless the dog is in a crate or another room because it's too easy to slip up and the results could be devastating or at least very annoying (like torn clothing, etc).

 

You are being a bit extreme there. its very easy to deal with the dog and adults. When people are due to arrive you put the dog away and after the commotion of people coming through the door and kissing and bear hugging is over, the dog can come out. When its time for someone to say goodbye, you put the dog away again or you see them coming towards you and you use your body to make sure the dog is not between you and them. you say "i'll come say goodbye to you over there, just a second." Of course, if a repair person comes over, the dog goes away -- that's just total common sense that every dog owner should do.

 

as far as kids, I doubt you suddenly have an army of 2 year olds over. you simply babygate the dog away from your company so the dog can have some peace and quiet. Even with the most friendly dogs, I don't allow the dogs to be out with small children who are prone to pulling ears. I have had friendly dogs who were total goofballs and i have had older dogs that were very mellow but just not used to the commotion of children. They reveled in the peace and quiet they got lounging in the bedroom when kids were over.

 

Actually, you are protecting your dog from kids - so they aren't poked in the eye or sat on - even the most tolerant dogs hate that.

 

we had a party last fourth of july and we kept the current dog separate when everyone was over going in and out of the house. After the meal, and when everyone split off to the backyard or down the street for fireworks the house was empty, so the dog got more freedom and then we babygated once fireworks in the neighborhood started just so they didn't accidentally get out.

 

Honestly, you should try that. If the dog bit your dad ONE TIME in an 8 year period, your dog is not this dog that just bites everyone all the time. There was a trigger involved. Your dog needs you to be a knowledgeable owner and if you are not willing to let the dog have her own place to chill out when there is commotion in the house, you are expecting way too much of most dogs

[abitbroken]

Punishment is isolation or scolding.

 

a lot of dogs do like having their 'cave' or safe spot and will voluntarily retreat to a crate that is covered on top if things get to be too much or too noisy. Putting a dog in the bedroom or a place in the house they like to chill out and be away from little kids may be a relief for them - i don't consider that punishment. My parent's dog retreats into the bedroom on her own during visits and takes a nap

[Sweet Sue]

therealchemist..........Barbara Woodhouse, author of the book, "NO BAD DOGS", was an advocate for choke collars as part of training. I don't really seem the harm it can

cause. And of course, my vet recommended it as well.

 

Abitbroken......I agree with you that isolating an animal is necessary when they misbehave or when a repairman comes to the house or guests arrive and can cause animals

like mine to become anxious and potentially aggressive. She typically removes herself and finds her quiet spot or "cave" when she is tired or fearful of something.

[19Nick87]

I agree with those who say training. I have two german shepherds, one is a compleete ham and loves everything, the other is a scardey cat and afraid of everything and was very protective of my ex. After extensive work with multiple trainers she is starting to come around. Exact same thing, would get agressive when anything required ny ex’s attention and attack.

 

We learned how to control and respond to the dog. Nit outting the dog in a situation where she felt the need to be agressive, and my ex or I had/have to be assertive with the dog. Sinple things like eating inolain view if the dog and making her wait until after people eat dinner to eat, making her sit and stay and than wait for us to go through doors first than the dog, etc. rewards are lots of love and praise for doing good, punishment is a very stern NO! So if you wanted to give me a hug the dog would be put in a down stay and made to wait until the hug ended, than she would be allowed to sniff and greet..

 

I worked with a trainer near my house, Jamie Scott. To give you some idea of what training entails you should watch his video clips. http://www.jscottdogtraining.com/video-trainings/

 

From what I have expierienced it is allot of work but it also yields great results.

 

From what you have said the dog is fearful of others hurting you and taking you away from her, so she snaps/bites. This is not an insult to you in anyway but the dog doesnt understand you are the leader and to trust your decisions so shes deciding on her own. With proper training you can change this relationship and at the same time help your dog become less fearful.

 

Best of luck