Has He Changed his Tune?

[tiredofvampires]

Naomi, these epic long threads are about you not knowing what you want. It doesn't matter what he might want, the overriding theme is that you are vague, or noncommittal, with yourself. It seems you jerk yourself around. Not a great way to treat yourself.

 

This is an ace post. I don't think you're trying to get attention (any more than any other ENA poster) and if people blow their time posting on a thread and their advice isn't heeded, well, that's kind of the risk people take here. It takes both community and OP's to make a thread long. (I have a theory that people glom onto posters they can identify with in some way -- maybe even if something about those qualities is repellant, even unconsciously.)

 

But I do believe the other poster was right on when he said you ought to spend much more time with introspection. And journeynow highlights what's important about that here.

 

You started this thread saying that you felt vindicated that you'd "won". Your first reaction to his email, I'm sure, was not outrage that he was not respecting your boundaries. It was probably glee, yes? Your heart skipping a beat? Even in your last thread, you wanted so badly for him to contact you.

 

Then you said maybe you'll sleep with him if you feel like it. See how that goes. And you'll be strong about it, even though the act itself is the breakdown of resolve (which you gotta admit isn't the strongest choice.)

 

You defended him all the way through, saying what if he's not so "dubious" after all, and really does miss you? You surmised that his movtives were only 30% sex. He was a sympathetic character who deserved to at least be heard out, if not one who has seen the light.

 

Now you're indignant and saying how dare he disrespect your boundaries of NC and go back on his "word" that he wouldn't contact you (which is a weird way to look at it -- I mean, he didn't vow a solemn oath not to contact you and you didn't say, "Please don't contact me anymore", so it's not like he's really disrespected anything in my view. He's just broken down and wants some sex, so he's asking [not explicitly, yet] -- until you tell someone what overstepping is, they can't mind read.)

 

It's a good thing that you're trying to work this out in your head, and I have often vacillated in my thinking about something. But what I see with you is a bit different. It's that you leapfrog from one firm statement about what you value and believe to another firm statement about what you value and believe. It's not just weighing out evidence or different interpretations. It's that you, INSIDE, don't seem to have a center. A centered place from which you are making judgments. It's like whatever comes along (in terms of suggestions from posters) is your new thought process, and it's not just a change of heart, it's like this is what you've been meaning to say all along even though it's not at all what you've been saying all along.

 

Not to mention you're calling him a "lizard" all the while trying to defend him, or condemning him while contemplating giving him the benefit of the doubt.

 

And, you didn't answer the question about why you had no idea this would happen when nearly everyone here saw this coming. That you seem to be in shock about this is frankly shocking -- it doesn't even take brilliantly incisiveness understanding of the human psyche to have anticipated these events, and been able to read this man. To have foresight about some of these matters. That's why posters here are feeling almost like, is this some kind of joke you're playing, to appear to be the hapless heroine undone by a rogue? I keep thinking you must be 17, but you're in your 40's -- you've been around the block a bit. But it comes accross as you are absolutely clueless -- about men, about relationships, about people's character, about yourself, most of all.

 

A few of us on your last thread told you to stop dating for now. You are not grounded enough to know who you are, how to ask for what you need, what you need, what you want. You did "thank" a lot of those posts, but you've been dating away, after all. You're intelligent, Naomi. But if your intelligence does not translate into wise calculation, it's nothing but fancy mental gymnastics.

 

Do you not think it's a good idea to TAKE A BREAK?

 

You are contemplating going back to a man that you told in no uncertain terms it was over with, because you wanted a relationship. You were filled with pride for being "strong" and taking a stand. No relationship, no arrangement. You knew what you wanted.

 

Those were the terms you gave him, and he pretended to respect those. Maybe he wasn't even honest with himself. He feigned or mustered enough self control not to contact you. I think he was calling your bluff (and you, his, really -- which is why it's now come to his "loss" and your "victory" [temporarily!]). You proudly said you would not contact him -- so the danger of succumbing to temptation with him was not there, you claimed. You pretended to yourself that this was an active choice, when it really was a passive one. I told you then that your resolve was only resting on his, and I think you balked at that or dismissed it with great certainly that it was a moot issue, with melodramatic terms like "forever", but here we are.

 

I actually think this was more about the high of drama and what you'd like to think is true of yourself (which is why I think some people are seeing something attention-getting about you here) than being real, or having a sense of insight into what's really going on for you or the situation at hand. I'm glad you admit to being a drama queen. This is pretty much the epitome. You'd be one of those women on dating profiles who would write, "No drama, please!" because you're the queen of drama yourself.

 

As much as he has had to eat his words, the whole reason you ended it with him will be up in smoke when you sleep with him, because when you ended it with him, it was only very conditional. You didn't REALLY mean to end it, even though that's what you wanted to believe about yourself. You just meant, "I'll end it if you don't initiate contact". "I'll end it if you never show up again." "I'll end it if I meet Prince Charming before you come back to seduce me." "I'll end it until I get lonely and miss you too much, and you swoop in at the right time". "I'll end it if I morph into someone who finds you absolutely toad-like and is grossed out at the mere thought of you." OTHERWISE, GAME STILL ON. There was all this subtext going on, and you blinked, moved on, and failed to see it all because it was under the surface.

 

So you didn't really mean what you said, just as he did not. And the problem is that it's okay to miss someone, but once you tell them, "I'm giving you an ultimatum," and then go back on it, your word is as good as a limp saltine after that to them. And the level of respect you'll have for yourself and they for you will then follow suit.

 

I also don't think the "it's not in my personality to do what's advised here" is a very good defense. I understand what you mean, that you don't like to be harsh to people, but you are doing something here with him that signals a part of your personality that goes along with not asserting yourself. It's not in someone's personality to stand up for themselves until they stand up for themselves.

Your email conversation lost an opportunity in my opinion, and your "let's wait and see what he does next" is just part of the love of drama. You don't see that, because you're not deeply examining yourself. You're reviewing the data endlessly, but that's not the same as EXAMINING YOURSELF. I don't see self-examination going on, just a lot of gear-shifting between facts of the case and your friends' opinions, and our opinions. It's at a superficial level.

 

I do think that if you were serious about fixing your problems in a more deep way, you'd take time away from men and dating -- not to just enjoy a vacation with some vino and adventure, but to do soul-searching work. I think you find that deeply unappealing. Where's the fun in that? The high? The distractions of the highs and lows?

 

This is the way I see that the conversation really could and SHOULD be conceived, if we compress it and just take out the extra padding of the NC silence these last couple of months:

 

Naomi: I want a relationship. Are you prepared to be in one, after these months of this affair?

Doctor: Ah, relationships. Feel free to date. I do like you, though.

...

Doctor: Don't get me wrong. I like you so much, I'd say you're an incredible woman. And I do think about you all the time.

Naomi: So if I'm an incredible woman and you think about me all the time, what does that mean? Are you just saying something appreciative? Or are you prepared to have a relationship where you can have me all the time, instead of just thinking about me all the time, as a COUPLE?

 

That's really the progression, as I see it. The 2.5 months was just hitting the pause button. And so it should not be starting again with you being cute and playing innocent (more drama) all over again, to start the courtship dance at square one, and then saying it's because your personality is just a little gentler and sweeter.

 

You don't have to be mean to be balls-to-the-wall. You just have to know how to sht or get off the pot, cut the crap, cut to the chase with someone by getting to the point in a clear and decisive way. What is it you're buying for yourself in this time? Other than the thrill of the suspense and for effect? BEING HONEST WITH YOURSELF?

 

I see streaks of denial throughout your posts -- about what you're capable of, what you're thinking and feeling at any given point. And a tendency to blame at times, rather than take the responsibility fully for what you're experiencing and resenting. It's very soap-opera-y.

 

Don't now blame the doctor for the way you get thrills. He throws you the bait you love, then you get angry, then you take it (likely). Also, don't confuse sassiness and even indignation with self-respect. I see a lot of the former, with the latter being quite shaky.

 

Self-respect is not defined by your ability to get pissed off at someone, it's defined by the actions you take to support your highest good, in the most expedient way.

 

Self-reflection is very badly needed. And a re-eval of your "personality" -- being able to separate what is a personality trait and what is a dysfunctional pattern/MO you have no idea how to break.

[missmarple]

I didn't think calling him out on his BS at that point was a fitting moment in time.

 

Sorry but I think you're lying to yourself..which is understandable up to a point..I've done it, too and, I imagine, most of the people here have.

You didn't call him out on his BS because you were afraid of the answer.

 

Knowledge is power. Admitting to yourself that you're not over him and that's why you're still walking on eggshells around him, because you really don't want to close that tiny door he's opened, would be the first step in recovery. If you keep believing or trying to believe that 'oh, well, timing isn't good' and 'I was being light as this is my nature', etc, etc, you'll only confuse yourself even more.

 

As I said, we've all been there. I just wish, when I had been there, in the past (some 20 yrs ago), I had a forum full of people as my support system. Unfortunately, my friends back then only told me what I wanted to hear.

[reinventmyself]

Types of engagement and staying attached - among a few:

 

Mental gymnastics, what if's and whys

Forecasting/mindreading

Arguing/fighting

Posturing

Fantasizing

Being kind

Any type of response, emails/texts

Cyber stalking

 

The very fact that you are talking and/or even thinking about him breathes new life into this, keeps it alive and keeps you attached.

Little kids act out for attention. . .good, bad or otherwise. Just because he emailed means he wants attention. Not to be confused with wanting you.

At least not in the way you had hoped

If you intend on really moving on (someday) all this precious energy would be best spent elsewhere.

Whether you see it or not. . you are still attached.

[browneyedgirl36]

Naomi, these epic long threads are about you not knowing what you want. It doesn't matter what he might want, the overriding theme is that you are vague, or noncommittal, with yourself. It seems you jerk yourself around. Not a great way to treat yourself.

 

This very brief post absolutely NAILED it. It doesn't matter AT ALL what he wants. What do YOU want? Have you forgotten yourself?

 

A few people have asked you -- on this thread and your previous one -- some variation on the question, "What is it about this guy that keeps you hanging on?" I think that's the wrong question (with all due respect to the people who asked it). The right question, in my mind, is this one: What is it about YOU that keeps you hanging on? Because really, this is not about him at all. It IS about you and about why you kept going with something that wasn't working for you for nearly a year and why you're reading so much into this one very insubstantial contact. It may be that you don't know what you want. It may be that you don't think you deserve better -- or that you question whether or not you do. I can't say, since I'm not in your head, but....this isn't about him. I promise you.

 

I hate to beat a dead horse, but I've been there. Oh, how I've been there; I barely posted about it on here while it was all going on because I feared what people would say, because I KNEW how badly I was shortchanging myself, and I was embarrassed to admit it aloud. In hindsight, I wish I had. Perhaps some sense would've been knocked into me sooner. It went on for FIVE years, though we were in an actual relationship for a time, and there was an ex-girlfriend-he-couldn't-get-over who kept popping up and wrecking havoc, but it was basically the same. I wanted more than he was willing to give. I'd cut him off (we worked together, so I couldn't avoid him completely, but there would be no contact outside of work and no personal conversations at work) and he'd ALWAYS, usually after 2-3 months, start sniffing around again. In these situations, they ALWAYS do. They do it until one of two things happens: 1) They meet someone else who intrigues them, and they turn their attention to that person (which is what happened to me); 2) You cut them off for good -- total NC -- and move on with your life.

 

These things rarely go any other way except one, I'm sorry to say. I think you know this, but I think you're getting bogged down in what he might be thinking, which should be inconsequential to you. What do YOU think? What do YOU want for yourself? What are you afraid will happen if you cut this guy off for good? What are you afraid will happen if you take your chances with someone else, someone who hasn't put you through all this before?

 

Just some things to think about. I have a feeling you're going to put yourself through all this again. Maybe it's what you have to do in order to learn. I did it, and I learned. I don't recommend it, though. It basically ruined five years of my life by keeping me miserable all the time. I regret that more than anyone could possibly know. The only good thing is that I took what I learned and completely changed my outlook, my view of myself, significant parts of my life, and I met the best guy I've EVER dated or been with. Great things can happen when you let go, but you have to be willing to do that.

[Helpexpressme]

They were never in a traditional relationship anyways, so what difference does it matter if she wants to "see" what could happen with this guy? Not much I'd imagine, as she's already taken her rose colored glasses off for quite sometime now.

 

Maybe she misses the bit of fun, and company and maybe she will walk away if he ends up a douche again, but she just wants to see. Is that so wrong?

[Rosti87]

I think if the OP wants to take herself through the ringer again so be it. My only caveat that time is precious and you can't get it back. Wasting time on a guy like this in your 20's is one thing. But after 40 time becomes even more valluable. Wasting it on people or situations with little ROI seems to not to be an ideal experience.

[Hollyj]

They were never in a traditional relationship anyways, so what difference does it matter if she wants to "see" what could happen with this guy? Not much I'd imagine, as she's already taken her rose colored glasses off for quite sometime now.

 

Maybe she misses the bit of fun, and company and maybe she will walk away if he ends up a douche again, but she just wants to see. Is that so wrong?

 

Actually, it's sad.

 

This guy has shown her that she has no place in his life, but she continues to hang on to every little bit of nothing.

 

It seems that she has commitment and self esteem issues, or she wouldn't give this guy the time of day.

[browneyedgirl36]

I think if the OP wants to take herself through the ringer again so be it. My only caveat that time is precious and you can't get it back. Wasting time on a guy like this in your 20's is one thing. But after 40 time becomes even more valluable. Wasting it on people or situations with little ROI seems to not to be an ideal experience.

 

Yep, my "wasted time" was in my late 30's - early 40's. Granted, I didn't (and don't) want to have children, so there was no "biological clock" element for me, but...yeah...after a certain point in life, time gets WAY more valuable, if only because you just don't have as much of it left.

[ThatwasThen]

They were never in a traditional relationship anyways, so what difference does it matter if she wants to "see" what could happen with this guy? Not much I'd imagine, as she's already taken her rose colored glasses off for quite sometime now.

 

Maybe she misses the bit of fun, and company and maybe she will walk away if he ends up a douche again, but she just wants to see. Is that so wrong?

I'm sorry, but that is codependent thinking at its finest.

 

If she goes back under the same circumstances to "just see where he takes her" without stating what she wants and seing if he is agreeable to it, then she's just enabling him to be the emotional taker that he's always been. It's women that keep going back to him and other players like him, to be able to be uncommitted takers. Even if they do think they are incredible women.

[Rosti87]

I'm sorry, but that is codependent thinking at its finest.

 

If she goes back under the same circumstances to "just see where he takes her" without stating what she wants and seing if he is agreeable to it, then she's just enabling him to be the emotional taker that he's always been. It's women that keep going back to him and other players like him, to be able to be uncommitted takers. Even if they do think they are incredible women.

 

The quality of men is as good as the quality of women... If more women would put their foot down on this type of behaviour there would be a lot less of it. If this man does not see any consequences to his behaviour he will keep trying it on.

[ThatwasThen]

The quality of men is as good as the quality of women... If more women would put their foot down on this type of behaviour there would be a lot less of it. If this man does not see any consequences to his behaviour he will keep trying it on.

 

Yes... that is what I was saying.

 

To clarify: When I said "even if they think they are incredible women... I was meaning that even if the player men think/say that these enabling women are incredible.

[Hollyj]

The quality of men is as good as the quality of women... If more women would put their foot down on this type of behaviour there would be a lot less of it. If this man does not see any consequences to his behaviour he will keep trying it on.

 

Totally agree! Many have very little value for themselves. Makes it tough on the rest of us.

[Naomi99]

I don't have a stable defined core of what makes me me. It is because I struggle between doing right thing for me versus mind-reading what the other person wants (the doctor in this case) and basing my decisions off of what he may be feeling. Mindreading, which Reinvent threw into that list of behaviors of attachment. Sometimes I feel like the strongest woman in the world with all of my convictions and nothing can throw me off path. Then I hear from someone like the doctor and I crumple to pieces and my moral compass gets thrown in the shaker.

 

It seems so simple as: I miss him. He misses me. We should see each other. It seems as logical as 1+1=2. And my mind tries to simplify this so my heart can have what it wants, and that's what gets me tripped up. But really it's much more faceted, more like Green1+ Purple1 = Poop-colored 2.

 

So much information here, esp. from Vampires, the beautifully-written long post that she took so much time and reflection to write, and I thank her for that. I read it five times and there isn't anything she wrote that I can find fault with. A lot of this drama is self-created because I haven't examined myself. If I had, I would be solid in my decisions and not let a single email from him throw me off balance where I have to come running here asking for direction.

[boltnrun]

Naomi, you say you didn't want to call him out in your response because it's "too soon".

 

What do you mean by that? "Too soon" in what way?

 

Are you afraid of making him mad? Are you afraid of "scaring him off"? Of driving him away?

 

I think it's because you're thrilled you have his attention again and you want to keep it. Which means you are willing to go back to the same dynamic. Last time it took about two months before you caved and went back. Well, here you are at the two month mark again, and you appear to be caving again, even though you insist you are not and that you are being "strong".

 

One of the other posters nailed it...instead of wondering what he's thinking and why he wrote to you, why not ask yourself WHY you care? Why do YOU engage with him? And yes, replying by telling him he looks like a cartoon character is very much keeping yourself in his life. Why?

[Naomi99]

It's very presumptuous asking him is he ready for a stable relationship just based off his email "I think about you all the time, you're an incredible person."

 

After reading a ton of these posts, I now realize maybe stating "does this mean you're ready" blah blah isn't presumptuous, but a responsible way for protecting myself.

[Naomi99]

BTW, he wrote back this morning. He said nothing of importance. I'm not responding.

[boltnrun]

It's very presumptuous asking him is he ready for a stable relationship just based off his email "I think about you all the time, you're an incredible person."

 

After reading a ton of these posts, I now realize maybe stating "does this mean you're ready" blah blah isn't presumptuous, but a responsible way for protecting myself.

 

So you're afraid he'll think you're "presumptuous".

 

So, you're basing your responses to him on how you think he might perceive you. Instead of responding based on what is best for you.

 

Still putting his wants before your needs!

[boltnrun]

BTW, he wrote back this morning. He said nothing of importance. I'm not responding.

 

How about deleting the message? So you aren't tempted to reply?

 

Or...do you want to keep the conversation going?

[itsallgrand]

I'm not as eloquent as TOV nor a lot of the others. But I think you make this way more complicated than it is.

 

It's a simple conflict really. And one almost every person has faced, at some time or another.

 

Do you want to have casual sex and fly by your panties, or do you want to go in the direction of having something else? A committed relationship, or even, real dating?

 

And when you think about this and decide this, don't just think of what you think you want. Think of the consequences of choosing each one. If you think you want to really date or a committed relationship, then the consequences of that are being prepared to have your own house in order and facing yourself head on. Be prepared to turn down a lot of sexy men who don't cut it, too, as far as relationship material goes.

 

If you go the casual route, you could skip a lot of the work and having to turn down sex.

 

And I have to throw this out there. As far as seduction goes, the doctor is a lightweight. "I miss you and think you are an incredible woman" is pretty standard fare, and stuff you can hear just about anywhere if that is all you need.

 

On the other hand....sex. lol.

[Naomi99]

So you're afraid he'll think you're "presumptuous".

 

So, you're basing your responses to him on how you think he might perceive you. Instead of responding based on what is best for you.

 

Still putting his wants before your needs!

 

 

I just wrote exactly that on the post several above this…how I battle with doing the right thing for me versus mind reading what the other person wants and not upsetting them. SOmething like that.

[boltnrun]

Naomi, I like you. When I like someone I sometimes take the chance of making them mad at me when I say (or write) certain things. I would rather risk someone I like getting mad at me than keep quiet and see them possibly hurt themselves.

 

So...if I poke and prod, that's why. I just think you're selling yourself way too short with this selfish doctor.

[Naomi99]

You're very eloquent and I get your messages loud and clear, which is the important thing.

 

Yes, I hear you. If I was able to have casual sex and date others (like men do all the time) that would be awesome, but I can't. I get attached, and I still am even after two months. I thought I wasn't but it's clear his stupid email made me freak the hell out. So probably not wise to get involved with someone who is going to stomp all over my heart…and he has a history of it.

[Naomi99]

Bolt: I like you too. I like all of you a lot….such smart women, and very observant and kind enough to put effort into helping me out.

 

 

Last time it took about two months before you caved and went back. Well, here you are at the two month mark again, and you appear to be caving again, even though you insist you are not and that you are being "strong".

 

Last time it only took one or two weeks, not two months. It doesn't really matter though. It's the same behavior. Must have been a typo somewhere.

 

I broke up with him on Valentine's Eve and told him we don't want the same things and I'm moving on. I left him in his bed with big wide eyes staring at me saying "Okay, I understand sweetie." He didn't even chase after me. I drove him crying. When I get home, I get a text "Happy Valentine's Day… blah blah" and I was flabbergasted. Then a few day later he texts me saying "please come over and watch a movie and cuddle with me, platonically, of course." As if nothing ever happened!!!!!

 

(He was going into surgery later that month so he was despondent. Understandable.)

 

I didn't respond for a while. I kept thinking he might die on the OR table (stupid excuse) so I texted back and said Okay, if anything happened and you croaked, I'd be devastated. I'll see you.

 

So I went to see him a few days before his operation. Yes, we ravished each other. Nothing happened to him on the OR table, of course. We continued seeing each other as he was recuperating all the way up until July when I posted here about casually dating this man, and you all said he's bad news, in a nutshell, among many other invaluable lines of advice.

 

I hate him.

 

No, I really don't. But I would like to strangle him.

[boltnrun]

I don't know if he's "bad news". But you become bad to yourself.

 

You put his wants above your needs. To keep him, I guess. I'm not sure what you're afraid of, but you do NOT want to be without him in your life. You want to keep yourself attached to him, at a great cost to yourself.

 

The big question is, WHY?

[journeynow]

It's very presumptuous asking him is he ready for a stable relationship just based off his email "I think about you all the time, you're an incredible person."

Presumptuous? You'd be basing that on YOUR HISTORY with him, not the one email.

 

Mind reading is presumptuous. You are fine with that.

 

Sassy, cheeky, are synonyms for presumptuous, and you like being sassy and cheeky.

 

And it is perfectly within your rights to presume you want clarity, not more confusion in your life, and thus are free to ask for clarity from someone you interact with.