Has He Changed his Tune?

[tiredofvampires]

I read up to the following post when I replied. And I only am responding to whatever you reported in his message, which you shared explicitly with us (can't speak to the parts you may have not disclosed).

 

 

 

This answer is spot-on. Everything I'm thinking. It's better to be angry than to be groveling, but misplaced anger and anger that is completely inconsistent or over-reactive, or misdirected at the situation is not a sign of emotional health.

 

Again, here is the drama, and the unstable Naomi that can be dishonest (with herself):

 

1. He never "promised" not to contact you again. He did not "disrespect your wishes" -- if I recall, but correct me if I'm wrong, you didn't ask him never to contact you again. I don't remember what last message you sent him before he said, "I won't contact you unless you contact me", but I don't recall you wanting to be so explicit in shutting the door on him as to give him a directive. You not only wanted him to break down before, you were happy he did now -- and even being angry you want him to try and try again, to show you he's fighting for you! So your anger at this point is not fair.

 

2. Your question about whether you should not block him so we can see him try again is disturbing on many levels. Why, if you're LIVID, would you want more? You don't want him to play games with you but this is the ultimate game, and I actually think it's a bit disrespectful to him. And yes, that IS possible, and I'm sure behind that cold-blooded "lizard" exterior, there is some feeling of loneliness and need that's real. You should not cater to it, but you also shouldn't be doing things to continue to provoke it and abuse it. You are baiting him now every bit as much as he's baiting you. You don't want to reply at all, but you want him to keep trying? DRAMMMA QUEEEEEN...

 

3. You're LIVID at him for his message, but if he stopped and didn't try again -- watch how quickly that would change your mood.

 

4. I don't see anything about his message that might not be true for him. He seems like he's being honest. He just wants friends with benefits, not a romantic relationship, and that's what he's offering. In and of itself, it's not inconsiderate or disrespectful to ask for a friends with benefits. Sure, it serves him. But you were in a quasi-non-relationship before because it served you. You wanted and needed the things you got out of the relationship before, and the only thing that differentiates you from him is that you want a more full relationship, a romantic relationship with give and take. Also, your definitions of "friendship" is different. He's got a very selfish streak, so he doesn't make that great of a friend. But in his own eyes, he sees himself and you as friends. People who are selfish often have no concept of what unselfishness looks like, but they have the emotional need to feel connected nonetheless.

 

So I'm taking his message at face value, and what I'd see in that is an effort to use the friendship card to reel you back into his bed. Yeah, it's manipulative to an extent, but he's also perhaps thinking you're not so naive that you'll interpret that as a sexless offer. He's asking if, based on his (limited understanding) of friendship, you'd be okay continuing as before. Sex plus whatever else is not sex that you shared. He just wants back what he had before. The only part I really object to is his saying he makes a "good friend" -- so he thinks, but that's because he's not capable of wrapping his head around what GIVING is. You yourself, though, said you two shared more than just sex, and played up the other 70% of the aspects of the relationship you thought he might be after, so...it's not like he's pulled the friendship card out of his butt either.

You have a right to feel what you're feeling. There's really no "right" or "wrong" emotion, but there are some that are more healthy than others.

 

I would not just leave him dangling - - I know lots of people respond this way, and I think it's a communication cop-out. It's really an aggressive (not assertive) move most of the time; and in this case, it's a move for more one-upmanship and trumping and creation of drama. It's not about resolution. Only very rarely is silence called for, as closure. In this case, you prove it's a maneuver, not a desire for closure.

Do you enjoy being a drama queen? Or do you want to change that? That's a direct question, not a rhetorical one. Because I'm honestly not sure. It seems you relish it. That would be a bad prognosis for change.

 

Here is how I would respond to his message (or something along these lines):

 

"Thank you for the honest explanation. I, too, appreciate friendship. But I think we may have different definitions about what we're seeking in a friendship, and I also don't believe we would just be platonic friends. We would end up in the same type of relationship we had before, in which "friendship" was incidental, and I don't want that arrangement again. I care for you, but being together again in any capacity is not going to work for me. I wish you all the best, but we do have to go our separate ways."

 

And then if he contacted me again, I would ignore it or block him, if you don't feel resolute enough to handle silence, which I think is the case for you.

 

This is called CLEAR COMMUNICATION. It's what I mean by balls-to-the-wall, but without meanness. There is actually a meaner streak in your wanting to dangle him in limbo than this, which is in direct contrast to your fawning at the beginning of this thread.

 

Do you see the erratic nature of your emotions and responses? This is what I meant in my earlier post about not being grounded and wild flip-flops. Your anger is not something arising out of an insight. It's arising out of pure reactivity. You're either faltering in self-doubt and mooney-eyed, or you're outraged and almost spiteful. There ought to be a middle ground between these extremes -- clear, direct, unemotionally charged, straight-shooting, kind, but resolute.

 

Whatever happens with this doctor, this is a quality YOU need to explore and work on, it's going to affect many aspects of your life/relationships.

[ThatwasThen]

Thank you. I feel a little bit queasy.

 

If anything I learned in the past few days, as much as I love hypothesizing over what he's going to say, I keep telling myself it really doesn't matter. It's what I want that matters regardless of what he says.

 

Now THAT's honouring a very fundamental personal boundary. Good Job!

[boltnrun]

Naomi, you don't want to block him because you want this to continue.

 

I think you're still secretly hoping he'll respond to your silence by declaring his love for you. Yeah, I do believe you're hoping for this. Even if you swear you aren't.

 

You were calling him attractive and sophisticated, angry that people were assigning dubious motives to his message, now you're angry with him because you don't like his response.

 

As TOV mentioned, the doctor has not changed at all. Of course, you were hoping he would. And that's the source of your anger.

 

He. Will. Not. Change.

 

All you can do is change how you deal with him.

 

Me? I'd send him the message TOV suggested. And I would not sit there waiting for his response. I'd click "send", then click "block".

 

And remember, he pulled the "let's be platonic friends" card before and you leaped at it (and it took all of what, an hour or two before you were back having sex with him), so why wouldn't he try it again? Best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, and all that. He is a doctor, after all.

[ThatwasThen]

Plus the fact his initial message was "I think about you all the time and you're incredible!" Why lead with that?? To mislead! Mentioning my birthday restaurant. Yeah. Reminiscing to hook me in.

 

He likely led with that because its true. Just because he misses you and thinks you are incredible does not mean that he wants something other then what he once had with you. It likely wasn't to mislead but rather his limited ability to be vulnerable to you while also being enticing. He's well aware that a woman's ego plays a large role in his success with them.

 

Gimme a break. He was throwing out bait.

Well, it worked on you before so why wouldn't he try it again? It goes back to that old adage... You teach people how to treat you. He's just now been introduced to someone with boundaries when it comes to protecting her emotional health. Chances are he won't contact you again now. If he's like most chronic womanizer/bachelor/players, he'll leave the decision up to you and he'll be out scouting for his next cuddle bunny. You may get one more crumb just to see how you react to it... to solidify in his mind that it's time to fade to black if you ignore. Don't break NC... you will kick yourself in the arse if you do when he makes you mad/sad/indignant once again

[Helpexpressme]

He's gonna have to do better than that lame response!! He wants to be friends?? He didn't try very hard did he. IGNORE!

[East4]

ToV, with all due respect, but you have been unnecesary hard on Naomi. She did asked the Dr. to not contact her again. I took the time to look it up in the mamouth thread under "Journals". Post #945 on page 95. She did ask for no contact. And he replied he would not contact her first. Her break up text was clear and to the point.

 

I also understand her resentment and anger today. The emotions are still raw. You can't expect from a hurt woman to be perfectly cool. She is desiring some vindication and it is perfectly understandable. Hence her wish to see him squirm and reach out again. This too will pass. Naomi is a smart girl.

[Naomi99]

I cried driving home from work today. I know my emotions are extremely volatile right now and it isn't good for me to do anything until I give myself a few days to settle down.

 

I read his message over and over, and instead of focusing on his asinine comment about what a good friend he is and how he doesn't take that for granted, I place my focus on the first paragraph he wrote about how he was really sad and wanted to say hello to let me know he cared about me, although he doesn't want a romantic relationship, he still had strong emotions concerning me.

 

For 2.5 months, these are the words I was waiting to hear. He reached out and said exactly what I wanted. He was sad and he cares about me. And instead of being happy for getting what I finally wished for, I become angry with his selfishness and how unbelievably blind and obtuse he can be. But maybe I am the one who is obtuse and losing focus. Bottom line, I got what I wished for. He misses me and cares about me.

 

When I posted here how I'm livid, that'd been minutes after I'd read his email and that was my primary reaction. Secondary action was empathy for him, because I too felt saddened and and still care for him. Knowing I wasn't alone in my sadness made me sadder.

 

I also think I've been on such high guard with him and his intentions that I doubt a lot of what he says, so I scrutinize his words with a stronger magnifying glass.

 

I don't know what I am going to do right now. I do know this about myself: I tend to react strongly, but I recognize when I'm emotionally dysregulated that I need to stop and identify what I'm feeling, let the emotion pass. Then I can make a decision what I want to do when I am in the right frame of mind.

[East4]

Glad that you can see a silver lining amidst the emotional turmoil. He did/does care for you, Naomi. But he is unable to love. Courage.

[Ms Darcy]

I am empathetic to your feelings of anger. But it seems like you either really love him or still want a relationship with him to feel this strongly.

 

Your refusal to block him shows that you were still holding out hope.

 

He has now crushed it. There is no hope of a relationship. For some reason, you needed to hear him reject you twice to believe it.

 

So, now your next growth step is to block him so you can move on once and for all.

[mhowe]

My reaction to her last post is that she wants to find the wiggle room to be "friends".

[Naomi99]

To reject something you have to be offered something.

 

I never offered him anything. I asked for clarification.

[Ms Darcy]

To reject something you have to be offered something.

 

I never offered him anything. I asked for clarification.

 

I think you and he and all of us are wise enough to know that you wanted a relationship and he didn't. Rejection comes in many forms ... explicit and implicit.

 

Your question implied to him (rightly or wrongly) that you still wanted a relationship. So, his response was to clarify that he still didn't.

[Naomi99]

My question to him was to clarify his taking the time and engery to contact me after he said he wouldn't, bringing up "I think about you all the time and you're an incredible person," which implies TO ME something more than friendship. I never tell my platonic friends "I think about you all the time and you're incredible." Do you?

 

So no, I did not offer or imply that I wanted a relationship. I said "Have you changed your mind about what you want" because of these three factors.

[Naomi99]

Anyway I am not fighting over technicalities anymore. It is what it is and I have to figure out what I'm going to do. No response or respond politely or respond with everything I truly feel including the mean stuff.

[Ms Darcy]

OK. So, are you ready to block him and move on?

[mhowe]

i would bet 2:1 she responds.

[boltnrun]

Naomi, you're not going to block him and move on.

 

Instead of seeing his message for what it is (he wants things exactly as they were before), you've chosen to see his message as a sign that he "cares" for you the same way you care for him. Unfortunately, we know (and you know deep down inside) he doesn't.

 

But Naomi, you're obviously not going to accept that because you are looking for a way back to him. You're taking his words as proof that it's OK to go back to him because he "cares".

 

Yeah, he "cares". He cares about getting drama-free vag from you and he cares about getting whatever else he wants from you. The "friends" thing is the minimal effort he's willing to put forth to keep you attached to him so he can keep getting sex.

 

But you're choosing to see it the way you want it to be.

 

I do see you going back to him, because, you claim, he gave you exactly what you wanted. Except he didn't, but you don't care, you only care about being back in his life and having him back in yours.

 

Everything that happened in the past two months was kind of an exercise in futility, because you didn't really want to stop seeing him.

 

If you're miserable without him, even knowing you'd have to see him on his extremely limited and selfish terms, then I guess you need to go back.

 

If that's what you want, go back! And God bless and good luck.

 

You know, my mother in law has complained about her weight the entire 28 years I've known her. She complains while she eats pizza and ice cream and cake and pastries and pasta loaded with cheese. She says she wants to lose weight because she's supposed to want to lose weight. But she really doesn't, and she's even said that. I say, never mind about losing the weight! If she's happier eating whatever she wants, then she should eat whatever she wants. And don't worry about what other people think.

 

Naomi, if you want to eat whatever you want...then do so. And never mind what we think.

[tiredofvampires]

ToV, with all due respect, but you have been unnecesary hard on Naomi. She did asked the Dr. to not contact her again. I took the time to look it up in the mamouth thread under "Journals". Post #945 on page 95. She did ask for no contact. And he replied he would not contact her first. Her break up text was clear and to the point.

 

I also understand her resentment and anger today. The emotions are still raw. You can't expect from a hurt woman to be perfectly cool. She is desiring some vindication and it is perfectly understandable. Hence her wish to see him squirm and reach out again. This too will pass. Naomi is a smart girl.

 

Okay, I stand corrected about her asking him for no contact earlier. I don't have time to look that up, so glad someone else did.

 

But I stand by what I said about the anger. I have gone through such things, and felt such things -- wanting to see someone shoot their foot and live to regret it, to see some kind of karma come and bite them in the ass; I've wished for dumpers to find themselves out in the cold and lonely and full of pain for their decisions.

 

Doesn't mean those are always justified (and on some "higher plane", they never are; when you care for someone, you don't wish for their demise, but that's for the saintly among us). Sometimes anger is not justified -- anger is justified when an injustice has been been done, or a betrayal. This doctor was not deceitful, he didn't lie, he was not unfair or unjust. He just gave her all that he was willing and able to all this time, and that's that. He has been upfront all this time. She has always been in the position to take it or leave it, ask for more or continue to take what she could.

 

I have been with selfish men, and (rarely) men who were happy to call the shots while remaining ironically passive (making me the one to define the course of the relationship), and yes, it's made me angry. But it's misdirected. Unless someone is pretending to be otherwise and tricking you, once you realize someone has a self-centered agenda, being angry at them is like being angry at a frog for being a frog.

 

I know it's easy to say standing at this distance, but that's why there's a forum. So people standing at a distance can point out the pitfalls. I can say anger is an emotion you should accept and work through if it's coming up, but be clear about what you're angry at. Otherwise, you miss an opportunity to see your own responsibility for the dynamic as it continues. Raging at someone for not being capable of something is actually wasted energy at a false target.

 

I know Naomi is smart, but at the root of this is that she is terrified of him walking away permanently, especially by her own hand. So those emotions may trump intellectualized concepts about what's "right". It's not about being smart, it's about understanding one's weaknesses and why they exist and I'm not sure she's in touch with that.

 

Naomi, whatever you feel today, I guarantee you in a few days/weeks you'll feel differently. And if you respond with any meanness, I can almost guarantee you'll regret it later.

 

I think your final answer to him should honor the feelings of care you have, and the appreciation you have for his statements, but to make it crystal clear that you must part. That way you are not denying anything you feel, you're not trying to prove anything, you're not trying to trump, you're not playing games, but you ARE also putting your foot down about what has to happen.

[snf23]

You know, my mother in law has complained about her weight the entire 28 years I've known her. She complains while she eats pizza and ice cream and cake and pastries and pasta loaded with cheese. She says she wants to lose weight because she's supposed to want to lose weight. But she really doesn't, and she's even said that. I say, never mind about losing the weight! If she's happier eating whatever she wants, then she should eat whatever she wants. And don't worry about what other people think.

 

Naomi, if you want to eat whatever you want...then do so. And never mind what we think.

 

This is a great analogy. We've all been there (some more than others), where we complain or feel bad about something that can be changed but we choose not to. Because it's comfortable, because we like the pain/attention/whatever.

 

My first heartbreak when I was 19 happened because my boyfriend at the time cheated on me. I thought he was the "love of my life" and I was devastated. I hated him, I didn't want any contact, I was done. And yet everytime he had a problem with his new girlfriend, had a rough day, needed reassurance and validation, he came to me because despite wanting "nothing to do with him", I would give it to him everytime. And then he would ghost me until the next time he needed me and I was the one left hurt, feeling like crap about myself, complaining to my friends over and over what he had done and how horrible he was. For FOUR YEARS I let him do this. Ignored everyone's advice even though, if this was one of my friends, I would have been so frustrated that they didn't see their own self worth. It took endless tears, a few lost friends, and a man who treated me like gold (which is what I deserve, as do you) to stop the cycle. To stop saying that I wanted him gone and to actually put forward the actions to get rid of him. And I never looked back.

 

Don't wait until you hit the bottom 2, 3, 10 times before you really and truly let him go. Why let him keep contacting you to feel some kind of power over not replying to him when you could feel an even better sense of power, and freedom, in blocking him now and being done forever? You deserve so much more, someone who gives you what you deserve. But you have to want to, nobody can come to your house and delete his email, facebook, phone etc. Because you would find some way for him to contact you again no matter what. Stop this cycle and give yourself even the smallest chance to be free.

[journeynow]

Please, give him the "crickets chirp" response. Loooads of it. Protect your dignity and sanity, Lady N!

 

Ha, yes, "cricket chirps". When your mind wanders into thoughts of him, do this for yourself to him in your mind: cricket chirps. Replace those thoughts with cricket chirps, and move on to doing something else.

 

One of the biggest obstacles to healing my break up was my mind. I had to kick him out of my thoughts, a number of times, and bring in my inner cheerleader.

[Naomi99]

TOV should be a life coach.

 

Being "mean" doesn't really mean being mean, per se, but pointing out facts like driving home late at night and not scooting your car over are all indicators of a friendship I'd rather not have. I don't see any point in mentioning these things because it won't make me feel any better nor will it make him. It would be just to highlight the differences in what I view as a friend opposed to his.

 

There is also an emotional part of me that wants to let down my guard and be vulnerable and let him know I was hurting and sad too. However I don't know if it's wise reveal that side of me to him.

 

The haughtiness in me wants to remain silent and aloof, but that's pretty much what I've done the entire time and look where it's gotten me.

[Naomi99]

If that's what you want, go back! And God bless and good luck.

 

Bolt, I can't ever go back. He will never, ever respect me. My word will be as solid as a limp saltine….that analogy you mentioned.

[boltnrun]

Bolt, I can't ever go back. He will never, ever respect me. My word will be as solid as a limp saltine….that analogy you mentioned.

 

More importantly, could you respect yourself?

 

If you went back, accepting having to park and schlep groceries uphill, accepting that your careful choice of lingerie will be ignored, accepting that he will kick you out of his bed at 2:00 AM after you've made him dinner, dressed up in sexy lingerie and gave him mind-blowing sex...would you respect yourself?

 

If it would embarrass you to admit to friends and family that you went back to him...then just maybe it would be a bad idea.

 

I sincerely hope you love and respect yourself enough to stay away.

[browneyedgirl36]

More importantly, could you respect yourself?

 

If you went back, accepting having to park and schlep groceries uphill, accepting that your careful choice of lingerie will be ignored, accepting that he will kick you out of his bed at 2:00 AM after you've made him dinner, dressed up in sexy lingerie and gave him mind-blowing sex...would you respect yourself?

 

If it would embarrass you to admit to friends and family that you went back to him...then just maybe it would be a bad idea.

 

I sincerely hope you love and respect yourself enough to stay away.

 

Yep. A big gauge for me of how much harm I was doing to myself was that I was too embarrassed to admit to family, friends, and even here on ENA, that I kept giving my ex chance after chance. He didn't deserve all those chances, and I deserved WAY better than how he treated me. Once I started acting like I deserved better, things changed drastically for me.

 

It took me awhile to forgive him, but it took me even longer to forgive myself for what I put myself through. Never again. I hope you won't put yourself through this again, Naomi.

[Naomi99]

I read his message multiple times and there just isn't anything worthwhile for me to respond to.

 

The only thing I can see fitting for a response is:

 

"Thank you for the offer of friendship. I'd really like that. So when I feel the urge to sit in stop-and-go traffic in my sleekest attire and most uncomfortable lingerie, park in an undesignated spot and haul three 15-pound Le Creuset pots to your house filled with artisan food, feed your ass, have dynamic sex only to be nudged at 2 a.m. to leave so you can get a proper night's rest, I'll call you!!"