Has He Changed his Tune?

[boltnrun]

Sorry Naomi, all of that just sounds like you don't want to end it for good with the doctor. You want to keep that door open because you're not ready to let go. You want to keep the option of going back open.

 

You do realize going back would mean more of the same old same old, right?

 

But, like I said before, your life, your choice. If keeping him in your life, even marginally, is what you want, then so be it.

[ThatwasThen]

You are practicing being vulnerable to the wrong person. If you want to practice being vulnerable, then why not wait until you have met someone that is clearly showing you that they value you. That is who will actually care and who you should be showing actions of love to. Not some chronic player who has done this to countless women over the last four + decades.

 

I'm thinking you want to show a vulnerable side to him because you're still being naïve and you are thinking "Gee, maybe he doesn't know how much I care because I was always so stoic with him?" Well, I don't know if you are thinking that, but if you are, get it out of your head because he liked it when you were stoic, it meant that what he had with you hadn't reached it's expiration date quite yet.

[boltnrun]

You are practicing being vulnerable to the wrong person. If you want to practice being vulnerable, then why not wait until you have met someone that is clearly showing you that they value you. That is who will actually care and who you should be showing actions of love to. Not some chronic player who has done this to countless women over the last four + decades.

 

I'm thinking you want to show a vulnerable side to him because you're still being naïve and you are thinking "Gee, maybe he doesn't know how much I care because I was always so stoic with him?" Well, I don't know if you are thinking that, but if you are, get it out of your head because he liked it when you were stoic, it meant that what he had with you hadn't reached it's expiration date quite yet.

 

Yep, as soon as you show "vulnerability" (i.e., adding "drama" to the "vag"), he would most likely shut it down.

 

The "stoicism" suits him just fine because he can get what he wants (sex, dinner, companionship) without the messy, uncomfortable emotions that woman are always hassling him with.

[lilygirl]

I think that sending that kind of message will surely lead to regret, which may in turn lead to feeling like you have to backpedal and clean up the mess that kind of message can make. It sounds childish. If you had issue with any of those things (parking, food etc) then you should have addressed them at the time, but you didn't, so mentioning it now will seem awfully petty.

 

I think you have received some amazing advice Naomi. However, I think that while you are getting all this great advice, and understanding it intellectually, your heart is not having it, thus all the reason for the back and forth. I hold no judgement, been there, done that. This may be one of these times that you are going to lead with your heart. This just may be the only way you are going to get it all figured out once and for all. And there is nothing wrong with that. Painful? Highly probable, but the big life lessons often are.

[tiredofvampires]

TOV, you rock like Van Halen. No, you rock like Led Zeppelin. Like Jimi Hendrix.

 

Hahaha, I'll take all three!!

 

And this is so true:

 

You have two choices...go back, knowing FOR A FACT that things will be exactly as they were before, or refuse to engage with him by ending contact, realizing he is never, ever going to give you any more than he has before and recognizing that that is not acceptable to you. That's it. No third choice

 

You do have the choice of going back to him and continuing as things were. It's one option, Naomi. And it's something you can and should consider, given how torn you are. What would it be like to feel the rush of sex with him again, when at some point, you'd be reminded of how little he considers your feelings? What would it feel like to watch your resentment fade into adoration and lust, to then feel the natural desire to cook for him again and do pampering little things to show you care, only to feel again that you're pouring that care into a bucket with holes? How will it feel to enjoy his body again and have to leave at an ungodly hour? Maybe this time, being aware that you will get nothing back, you can try this experiment saying, every time the adoration turns into resentment (that you must bottle up), "I'm doing this to myself, he isn't doing anything to me." And keep repeating that every time you feel unreciprocated. "I'm doing this to myself."

 

Like I said, it's going to take a brutal toll on your self-esteem and as I said some people need to be bloodied to learn (so it's a growth opportunity, but a gory one), but that is one option that IS on the table.

 

The only other choice is walking away now, because becoming immune to wanting something more from him is not gonna happen any more than he is gonna wake up and fall in love with you.

 

If you walk away, HOW you walk away is a growth opportunity.

[reinventmyself]

When I was in therapy, my therapist asked me to describe my dating style.

At the time I thought I was pretty smart, acting coy, playing hard to get. (much like N describes herself)

I got the attention I wanted at the time but I didn't clearly see the pattern of men I was attracting.

 

My therapist told me if I continue to go about this way I would be most attractive to unavailable men.

 

It took me some time to wrap my head around this. But unavailable men love the chase more than the others. Besides it's chasing something that appears unattainable so it's safe.

It suggests to them that they won't have to commit to the very thing they are in pursuit of.

 

It's not so much about being vulnerable, but it's about getting real, being transparent and clear about your expectations when it comes to dating.

First and foremost with yourself and then with others.

 

N admits she went into this with a cavalier attitude. Maybe the Dr should be indignant that she was in pursuit of something other than what she was really portraying.

[mhowe]

I vote TOV the MVP of ENA!!!!!

[reinventmyself]

I vote TOV the MVP of ENA!!!!!

 

I second that!

[Naomi99]

The advice on here is AMAZING. That's for sure. Beautifully written, nonjudgmental, thoughtful and above all challenges my brain. It's like you guys are Sleeping Beauty's little fairies watching out for her or Jiminy Cricket warning Pinnocchio.

[Naomi99]

You know what I should do that would be safe yet kind of funny?

 

Copy and paste the exact same message I sent him two months ago when I broke it off.

 

"I've decided to follow your advice and find real boyfriend. I'm dating and don't have much time to spend with you. Please, no need to stay in contact. Take care."

[reinventmyself]

You know what I should do that would be safe yet kind of funny?

 

Copy and paste the exact same message I sent him two months ago when I broke it off.

 

"I've decided to follow your advice and find real boyfriend. I'm dating and don't have much time to spend with you. Please, no need to stay in contact. Take care."

 

When you say things like this, I have to question if you're really listening

[Naomi99]

When you say things like this, I have to question if you're really listening

 

OMG YES I'm reading every message, sometimes twice! I read TOV's long messages sometimes up to 10 times and have a post it here with notes. Not joking.

[reinventmyself]

OMG YES I'm reading every message, sometimes twice! I read TOV's long messages sometimes up to 10 times and have a post it here with notes. Not joking.

 

I guess those of us dedicating time into this are looking for some introspection or possibly some change.

After all, you are asking for advise.

Or are you?

[Naomi99]

Since I cannot decide whether I want to respond or not, and should I respond what type of message it would be (I would like to stick to TOV's suggestion of poise and dignity), I'm going to rest on it for a while. I think with time, my emotions will settle down and what is right for me will become apparent.

[tiredofvampires]

Even now with his recent contact, that same urge to display an air of indifference arises. Why?

 

Perhaps because it's non-committal and therefore you don't have to take a stand?

 

for me to conquer this fear I have of speaking up and showing vulnerability. He said he was sad. I want to let him know I was sad too.

 

I usually deflect with humor and sarcasm. I don't want to do that this time. I can do sarcasm and sassy very easily. It's speaking truthfully from the heart I have trouble with.

 

I just don't know if this is the proper time or circumstance under which to practice this.

 

I don't believe there is any time when speaking truthfully from the heart is inappropriate. I'm trying to come up with one example in life where that isn't the best way to approach any given situation, and can't think of any. What are the alternatives? Speaking untruthfully? Speaking from the...? One might tailor the tone to befit different types of situations, but when is not speaking from the heart with truth a good approach?

 

I strive to be the kind of person who speaks from the heart and with truth always, using of course care to know your audience in your choice of words and delivery.

 

If this is not the "proper time or circumstance" to practice it, when is? Why is this not the perfect time to practice this?

 

I also don't think that speaking about your true feelings and thus displaying a vulnerable side means you have to be taken in by someone's tactics or give over your resolve to follow through with a plan to stand strong in a hard decision. You can say, "I am sad, too, this is hard for me because I wanted things I could not get from this relationship for a long time" and there is nothing wrong with that if you know what you're going to do to protect yourself, and have anon-negotiable action plan. You are not here to negotiate with him. In some cases, expressing vulnerability is part of a process of negotiation and sharing with a partner who wants to grow with you and be with you on all levels. In other cases, expressing vulnerability is purely for your own sense of closure and self-expression -- without any desire to change the other person's view. As long as you know you're only expressing your feelings for their own sake, and not to change or manipulate him, or alter the decisions being made, it's okay.

 

And yes, buying yourself time for clarity of thinking is always a wise decision! Voting yes on waiting to see how you feel after time clarifies the waters.

[reinventmyself]

this is where I get weary and label it -attention seeking

 

You've gathered an extremely large volume of advise and information from responders who are not only amazing but much more patient than myself.

Take some time to process all of it and decides what's best for you. Whatever that looks like.

Coming here asking the same questions over and over and doing the same thing is where I opt out.

I guess without it all there wouldn't be much to talk about, right?

I wish you the best.

[Naomi99]

Holy guacamole TOV, how did you become to be so logical and balanced? You should call Oprah because she'd make you the next Dr. Phil.

[tiredofvampires]

ToV, with all due respect, but you have been unnecesary hard on Naomi. She did asked the Dr. to not contact her again. I took the time to look it up in the mamouth thread under "Journals". Post #945 on page 95. She did ask for no contact.

 

I don't mean to pick nits here, or toot my horn, but this is not a nit. I think this is important.

 

I did not have time to go back to that post in the last thread where Naomi "asked the doctor not to contact her". As I said, I wasn't sure how she couched that, but do recall it was not direct. I remember it feeling noncommittal, whatever it was. And I have to go back to that interpretation, because a poster now has quoted that post and Naomi said this to doc:

 

Please, no need to stay in contact.

 

"No need"?

 

East, that is not the same thing as asking the doctor not to contact her. The difference seems small, but it's actually a big one. She managed to find a way to get around asserting herself by putting an escape clause in there: read, "you don't NEED to contact me if you don't want to." She put it more or less as an optional thing. With the ball more or less in his court.

 

Well, now, he is lonely enough to see a need, lol.

 

So I stand by what I originally said. SHE NEVER ASKED THE DOCTOR NOT TO CONTACT HER.

 

And it's an example of her finding ways to not make a decision, to let others make the decisions for her, to be vague and ambiguous, to protect herself from loss by leaving the door open.

 

And then later to be able to get enraged at him for "not respecting her wishes", which is unfounded but gives her someone else to blame.

[ThatwasThen]

If this is not the "proper time or circumstance" to practice it, when is? Why is this not the perfect time to practice this?

Because chances are high that her being vulnerable to him WILL cause her to break her resolve. (Only her actually carrying out her "practice of being vulnerable" will tell of course but does this man deserve to know that he broke her heart? Because yes, that is what he has done (or she has done to herself actually) I think everytime she cooked for him, everytime she left at 2:00 a.m. and came right back for more of that, every time she didn't adhere to personal boundaries in order to keep things going with him in a free vag on a stick manner ~ she was being vulnerable to him. That is how she caught feelings for him by seeming, in her mind that she was important to him by doing things that she felt were important in order to show value.

 

If there ever was a time that one should be stoic, it's when a player is trying to get them to play yet again. He will know what to say to her to help melt her resolve. It will work too because N. puts more worth in words then she has in actions with this man.

 

Speaking from the heart, IMO, should be done when who you are speaking to is invested more then what this man has ever been.

[tiredofvampires]

I think there is a defense for both approaches. You have to know yourself. How strong you are, to balance what you're saying with what you're doing so that you still come out feeling you've protected yourself and are being consistent with your values.

 

If what this man says can "melt her resolve" with his words, awareness is 90% of the battle won there. If you know someone can use their words to melt your resolve, know they are a player, and STILL go back to them -- that's a huge revelation about yourself. On the other hand, it might be the challenge you need to get unstuck. To realize this is how much power you need to reclaim for yourself.

 

I don't think she has to tell him he broke her heart. She doesn't have to spill her heart and soul to be able to say, "I am sad, too" because it's followed by something sober and pragmatic, like, "...but this is not going to work, not even as friends, so we have to part ways." I'm just proposing a way to say what you want to say, AND do what you want to do, because they are not mutually exclusive.

 

If my priority is being true to myself, I can find a way to express myself and also keep my power. Being true to myself means being true in all ways. Being stoic may "get the job done", but it's at the expense of being true to myself, so it's not the ideal answer for me (and maybe not Naomi either, but she's quite different from me, so maybe it's a trade-off she'd have to make, to stay on course.) But yes, it's a balancing act.

 

I think you're right that one has to be careful of casting pearls before swine -- and I have been there, done that way too many times. But I don't think you're casting pearls if you're very clear of what your intentions are and aren't, and that ultimately you're sharing to let go of something FOR YOU, not for them or the relationship, and they can think whatever they want. I don't care what they make of it -- the pearls are still mine to keep.

[Naomi99]

I'm overwhelmed right now with the choices that are before me. It's not just end it or go back. It's whether I should respond, how I should respond, should I not respond. And if I go back, am I skilled enough to handle myself differently? Will I only see him one time? Will it be too much for me to handle? When he says friendship, does he mean status quo or a true friendship? (everyone here thinks it's status quo. The people who know me thinks it means a true friendship.) Why am I unable to shut the door permanently? Will i regret shutting the door? Will I regret opening it? Practice vulnerability? Protect and stay stoic?

 

To top that off with pissing ENA people off because I'm not making a decision…

 

Plus I'm swamped with work...

[mhowe]

OH Cripes...we have backed tracked 1,000 miles from NC to actually pondering going back for "friendship".

 

There are none so deaf as those that will not hear.

 

Please send ice pack to TOV. She likely has a headache of epic proportions from hitting her head against the wall.

[tiredofvampires]

I just realized I made a significant typo a few posts back:

 

In other cases, expressing vulnerability is purely for your own sense of closure and self-expression -- without any desire to change the other person's view. As long as you know you're only expressing your feelings for their own sake, and not to change or manipulate him, or alter the decisions being made, it's okay.

 

I meant to say, "your own". Your OWN sake.

 

 

Please send ice pack to TOV. She likely has a headache of epic proportions from hitting her head against the wall.

 

LOL! It wouldn't be the first time, though, here...

 

But I do this to myself, too, so I kind of get it. I'm different from Naomi in some ways, but I've had my jams before, lol.

 

Naomi, the smartest thing you've said on this thread is that you need to give yourself time to let it "digest." My immediate answer is never the one I'd have a few days later, or a week later.

 

I try to imagine what type of answer I'd be proud of myself for saying 6 months out.

 

Just sit with it and yourself.

[missmarple]

I'm overwhelmed right now with the choices that are before me.

 

You only have one choice. Stop responding to him. Anything else and you're just asking for drama. Because that's all you're gonna get from this situation.

[boltnrun]

LOL at "true friendship".

 

Yeah, we all know how THAT worked out last time.

 

Go ahead and go over to his place to watch a movie "platonically".

 

I'm not a gambler but I'd bet a year's salary you'd end up leaping on him before the opening credits finished rolling.

 

And anyway, didn't you say he doesn't do a single thing that you consider a friend would do? So how do you get from that to believing he's offering "true friendship"?

 

Yep, believing what you want to believe is powerful indeed. So is that river in Egypt.

 

Oy vey, Naomi...I wish you would stop pretending to yourself and just go do what you really want to do already. It's OK, no one will die.