Dating - what not to do

[Fudgie]

My preference is that we both take turn to pay for things without having to keep tap of the exact amounts. I feel that a relationship should be both parties giving and being generous to the other, whether it's money or otherwise, and that builds a positive cycle, rather than both parties calculating how much they gave and expect to get back. I don't mean splurging, I just mean not being calculating, and that's what I consider a red flag for myself, if I get the sense that a guy is calculating or stingy, I will seriously reconsider if I want to continue.

 

I agree with this, and I have done this in a relationship. He pays, I pay, he pays, I pay...back and forth, not really caring too much about the amount. However, if I (or him) splurged on a particularly expensive dinner, the other would make a point to pay out for the next 2 times for the person. But yeah, the actual amount...doesn't really matter.

 

In terms of the early stages of dating/getting to know each other though, I prefer splitting because I don't know the person and I don't want to feel owed/feel like I owe them. Nor do I think it's fair to expect a guy (or heck, a girl) to be "generous" with someone they barely know. I think there's a time and place for that once a steady dating pattern/relationship is established but not necessarily early on.

[Sportster2005]

 

 

3. We had coffee and lunch, I offered to pay my share, the cashier heard this and said she can split bills, he accepted. That was fine with me but honestly guys really do score extra points with me if they offer to pay for the whole thing - it's not about the money and it wasn't an expensive meal, it's just a nice gesture that shows generosity and chivalry.

 

And last week when he dated someone and he insisted on paying the woman was annoyed for not respecting her independence on not listening. If you want the guy to pay don't offer to pay half. Sounds like your setting traps and playing games.

[notalady]

And last week when he dated someone and he insisted on paying the woman was annoyed for not respecting her independence on not listening. If you want the guy to pay don't offer to pay half. Sounds like your setting traps and playing games.

 

Interesting that you didn't quote the rest of that point, which was about the coffee afterwards and was what I had an issue about, along with everything else. As for offering to pay for the meal, I feel like I'm just repeating myself now, but I will just say again, I don't assume or expect guys are going to pay for me, I offer to pay for myself and genuinely mean it. It would be arrogant and presumptuous to just not offer at all, it's nothing to do with playing games or setting traps.

 

That doesn't mean that I don't appreciate a guy's generosity though and will return in kind the next time round. As mentioned in my latest update, it's very low on my priority list. On the other hand, calculating and stinginess is an issue/red flag for me.

[notalady]

And last week when he dated someone and he insisted on paying the woman was annoyed for not respecting her independence on not listening. If you want the guy to pay don't offer to pay half. Sounds like your setting traps and playing games.

 

Also, I would have thought that, if you offer to pay for a date, and she insists on paying for herself, no reason you can't just let her do it. It's not like you're psychic. If she wants to pay and you insist on paying and you get into a heated discussion about it, that may be going overboard. By the same token, if you simply offer to pay as a nice gesture and the woman goes off at you about some independence crap rather than being appreciative or politely decline, I should think that's a reflection on her, not you or your next date or even the next date. Or women in general.

[notalady]

All those things would definitely put me off, too...lethal combination..and OMG I cringed at 2 things: the mammogram comment and saying ok about owing him $2...the first one being 100% inappropriate, the second one being 100% cheap...I would say forget about it even if I was out with a friend!

 

Yea I thought I heard wrong, with the joke. I laughed politely, then he said "oh that's a yes", in my head I was thinking wth is going on! I said haha no that's a no.. And he joked about being a professional or something, then said that's a bad joke and he's not THAT experienced. At this point (towards the end of the date), I just wanted to get out of there. It was strange, but anyway.

 

On the walk back to his car, he said he's a bit shy, I said that's ok and that I didn't find him shy at all (I really didn't), and said "I hope I'm not too shy, well I know I'm not shy haha", then he elaborated more and I realised he's talking about shy in the physical aspect and how some guys might be "smoother" in making a move. I said that I don't expect to get physical on the first date or two and that I don't like "smooth" guys. I said that expectation doesn't make any sense and said don't you think it's weird that people expect to get physical with someone they've only met once or twice, ever? And his response was oh I'm being shut down already, before I even made a move. I wasn't shutting him down, I was just making clear my views about the whole thing, and he should just take it a clear and obvious hint that it won't be wise to try anything because I'm not comfortable with that, not on the first or second date anyway. Again, seems very focused about getting physical. Maybe he felt pressured, who knows.

 

He also had preconceived ideas about what women like or dislike rather than asking me first what I like or don't like, such as women like big muscular guys, women like to just walking around shops, both of which I happen to be not into. He also apologised for his fashion sense and his shoes (it was totally fine, there was nothing wrong with it! I don't know why he keep apologising for all these non-existent issues), and asked if I have fashion rules etc, I said I couldn't care less just as long as they are clean and neat. Having preconceived ideas based on gender and race, while not my personal preference, is not necessarily a negative as long as it's not offensive, that's why I didn't put it in the first post, but this did not help his case after everything else all added together.

[Blue Spiral]

As soon as I saw this thread, I hoped that it would be advice for women, from women. But I assumed that it would actually be women telling men what we "need to do", with the implication being that women just need to show up. I remain sadly unsurprised.

 

"Guys, you aren't doing a good enough job of buying us free meals. Let me tell you how you can really do better..."

[Ms Darcy]

I think it would be good for a man who is successful in dating to provide advice to women as well.

[notalady]

I'm tired of explaining about the fact that I don't expect men to pay for my meals, read my other updates, or don't. I don't care anymore.

 

This post was well intended and if any one wants to share examples of what not to do on a date for women, it's more than welcomed. Nowhere in this post was it specified "what not to do, for men". It is also worth noting that most of these things apply to women as well (e.g don't act insecure or lack confidence, don't make inappropriate jokes about the other person's body part, don't ask about the other person's ex and say you want to see how you measure up. And it doesn't hurt to pay for something if the guy had paid for something else.)

 

Some people insist on twisting my words and pick and choose what to read or not read to fit their own agenda. Fine, I stand corrected. I was wrong to want to help people identify what they might be doing wrong on dates, I'm just a picky woman. Do whatever you want on your dates, I wish you do well.

[Fudgie]

I think some men need to be better about picking up what sort of humour their date is into. Goes for women too. Some are more easily offended, some are not. Some are more into slapstick/goofy stuff, others like dark humour, others are extremely sarcastic, etc. I wouldn't say that physical/raunchy humour is an automatic no-no on a date because some people DO like that but you need to try to find out beforehand what they are into. I like certain comedians and shows that give away my sense of humour. It may be a good idea for someone to ask their date beforehand to get a better idea of what they are into.

[Batya33]

I never liked the situation where the man didn't offer to pay for my $2 coffee (which is all I would order) or offer to go up to the counter to order. I especially didn't like when we both went up to the counter and he made no effort to ask what I wanted ,etc (I would have done that for a casual acquaintance I was meeting for coffee, and had) . Sexist? Maybe - but since I did the same in similar situations and it was just coffee I felt that on balance he should at least offer.

[Mr_LFA]

"Guys, you aren't doing a good enough job of buying us free meals. Let me tell you how you can really do better..."

lol

I've been absolutely grilled before when I didn't pay for lunch once - I guess it was the 'who asked who' rule... But I think if a guy can't offer to pay for a $3 cup of coffee on the first date then that's pretty poor form and he doesn't really deserve another.

[Batya33]

lol

I've been absolutely grilled before when I didn't pay for lunch once - I guess it was the 'who asked who' rule... But I think if a guy can't offer to pay for a $3 cup of coffee on the first date then that's pretty poor form and he doesn't really deserve another.

 

When I went on first meets I assumed it was not a date and I tried to arrange it as just for coffee at a casual place without waiter service. Typically I'd offer to chip in or split the bill (or if we were going to go for a meal, at that time) - most of the time the guy refused my offer. Two exceptions - one guy traveled far to see me so when we sat down for lunch I told him that I was treating. He accepted and I didn't really appreciate that he ordered quite generously for himself -when a man treated me I tried to either match what he ordered or more typically order less/less expensive.

 

Another guy said he thought I had offered to treat when I had only offered to split the bill so I corrected him (because he wasn't someone I ever wanted to see again based on all his behavior and that was the last straw).

 

And, finally I really didn't appreciate the guy who insisted on meeting for dinner at a very fancy restaurant (I had suggested drinks), then accepted my offer to split the bill and didn't care how I was getting home (let alone offer to chip in for a taxi late at night) and then asked me out again after asking nothing about me during the date and complaining about his life. That is what "not" to do (he emailed me two years later to thank me for being so open with him about why I declined to see him again -he begged me over email for the reasons -he said the email really helped)

 

I was ok with the insecure/shy type behaviors - first meetings can be daunting. It depended how much/to what degree.

 

I think it's fine to expect a guy to offer to pay for a $2 cup of coffee and not fine if his reason for not offering is for some sort of "test" or other manipulative reason. It's just coffee. Lattes, etc -that's a different story.....

[RKO]

As a male the major no, no I've come accross is:

 

When on a date I always insist on paying, its the gentleman thing to do, not splitting the bill but paying 100% However, its always nice for the girl to offer to pay. I think its rude if someone doesn't offer. Id never accept their gesture but at the same time it shows good manners.

[John John]

Sigh...I feel so bad for men sometimes...

 

Ok...first of all, I have to say that I like OP (notalady) a lot. I think she's cleary and intelligent and genuinely cool woman. So OP, this isn't anything on you

 

I will say that in my college days, I was somewhat like this guy that notalady dated. While I NEVER made any crude or cheap jokes like this junior rookie did, I struggled with dating back then. I remember one truly horrible date that I had freshmen year in college. I remember I asked out this Mariah Carey lookalike (back in her prime)...and to my utter shock...she said yes. But man oh man, was the date an embarrassing (for me) TRAIN WRECK. My main mistake…I just kept showering her with compliments, to the point where she told me to stop. I was just being my "too nice" self and saying what I felt...but clearly, I was doing all the wrong things. And I paid for the whole date (took her to a nice restaurant in Times Square, even on a limited college budget), but still didnt' get a second date because I was the dreaded "too nice." Hahaha...it took me a long time to really learn how to date properly. Dating is something that, unfortunately, men really have to learn and get good at. I still have FWB that say I'm too nice, but they only see this facet of my personality after I get to a certain point.

 

I agree, this guy really did mess up with some of his stupid inappropriate jokes and comments. However, I sympathize with him a little bit in terms of the not hiding his insecurities problem. People who know me really well would probably say that I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve. I've learned to dial this back over the years, but it's something that's a part of me that I've had to actively battle against. Maybe this guy hasn't learned how to do this, or hasn't had someone flat out tell him "dude...you need to STOP." It’s all in the body language too. Good old Thorshammer noticed when we hung out that I tend to lean in during a conversation (just because I’m interested and trying to really hear what the person is saying, especially if in a crowded place), but he pointed out the underlying assumptions that this body language can give off (being “too interested” or “caring too much” . I think I do that more with friends or people I’m comfortable with, but I certainly make an active effort to not do that during dates.

 

Let's face it...the art of dating is something that really only us men have the burden or learning and mastering. I'm sorry, but most of us don’t care about a woman's confidence (LMAO), her body language, or if she makes any jokes that fall flat or are even slightly inappropriate...if we're at least somewhat attracted to you, we are a LOT more forgiving, and there is usually at least a second date And we really appreciate it when you offer to pay, even though we are paying for you!

 

To all the men on ENA who are having trouble getting past the first date. I'm sorry to break it to you like this...but the absolute worst advice any of your friends or family can give you is to "be yourself." That does not apply to us. Take it from me, because I used to struggle with this. Please see Exhibit A - my train wreck date example above. Learn from my mistakes. Get good at dating…it is a tangible skill that must be learned!!

[Cherry009]

His agreeing that you owe $2 and his constant apologising is so cringy!!! oh & the rude talk about touching you!

[Ms Darcy]

Thanks for your post MCJD and not letting the thread derail (and degenerate) to a conversation about who pays!

 

I know this is not a perfect example, but dating sort of reminds me of doing job interviews. You should practice, practice, and practice before you go. Make sure you look nice, make sure you are smiling and look pleasant, make sure you clearly articulate the points about yourself that you want to get accross. The "interviewers" are looking for a good fit ... so first impressions make a difference.

 

But you have the dual role of being an interviewee AND an interviewer on a date. You are not just one or the other.

[John John]

I totally agree with you Ms. Darcy - dates are a lot like interviews. Although I still feel that, on average, you ladies are tougher intereviewers than we are

[Blue Spiral]

I was wrong to want to help people identify what they might be doing wrong on dates, I'm just a picky woman.

 

In the event that a woman ever asks me out--it hasn't happened yet, but I keep hoping--I am not going to lecture her about what she could have done better. I'd just be thrilled to get the attention/free meal. Now, if women were asking me out all the time, and I could take that sort of attention for granted, I could see how someone could become picky.

 

Do whatever you want on your dates, I wish you do well.

 

I've never dated at all, and part of the reason for that is because I don't like the "job interview"-ish structure of the idea. Artificially trying to impress someone...it just seems soulless, to me.

[Batya33]

"I've never dated at all, and part of the reason for that is because I don't like the "job interview"-ish structure of the idea. Artificially trying to impress someone...it just seems soulless, to me."

 

It can be as can any social interaction but it doesn't need to be -if two people genuinely want to get to know each other better and both want to make a good first impression it should feel pretty darn natural.

[Fudgie]

A date with the wrong person feels like a job interview. When you have good chemistry (physical and emotional and mental), you "click" with that person and it feels really natural. Not like a job interview at all.

 

If you're "trying" to impress and stressed in a date, you're either in the wrong mindset or with the wrong person. Or both.

[Batya33]

A date with the wrong person feels like a job interview. When you have good chemistry (physical and emotional and mental), you "click" with that person and it feels really natural. Not like a job interview at all.

 

If you're "trying" to impress and stressed in a date, you're either in the wrong mindset or with the wrong person. Or both.

 

So, yes I think people should "show up [on time] look nice and be nice" -no big "have to impress you" kind of thing but yes I think you should put your best foot forward and show the other person you're making an effort.

[John John]

In theory, yes, it should be a two-way "interview" (because let's face it, that's what most dates feel like, at least in the beginning)...but whether people will admit it or not (I'll just come out and say it) men are judged against much stricter (and often, frustratingly confusing/contradicting) standards (for example, as mentioned a earlier, a guy gets burned by one woman for insisting on paying, and then doesn't get a second date with another woman for not offering to pay). Knowing this, many men go into these dates even more nervous than they need to/should be, and thus end up in a vicous cycle of failure. Women for the most part just need to be have a friendly and somewhat interesting personality and be attractive to the guy in question (and have a decent career/job, although many don't even need that).

 

As a disclaimer, I'm not trying to start a gender war I'm just stating what I have seen and experienced first hand. I am an expert in dating because I had to get good at it. Dating is a tangible skill that men have to learn (unless they look like John Stamos or make seven figures, or both). I still get nervous for dates, but I now have the tools to excel regardless (and no, it's not even of that PUA garbage, even though some that is true). And as a result, I feel that I get to do a fair amount of the interviewing too, even if she looks like Kristen Stewart (had a date with her doppelganger last year - had no personality, so no second date with me, but I'm sure she had 1000 emails waiting for her on POF, which is how we met hehe).

[IAmFCA]

"Show up on time" -- my biggest challenge in all of life. People, on time is sign of respect and all of that, I get it. If you are ADHD or otherwise challenged, being on time is one of the most difficult things to accomplish. It seems so easy to you on time people, to us, it is damn near impossible. Please don't take it personally. We forget to include the time it take to park, the time in the elevator, the walk to the meet up, that we need gas.

 

Oscar Wilde said, "Be yourself, everyone else is already taken." If you remember this, then it isn't an interview because you could care less whether you qualify for the job. You are just sharing yourself.

[IAmFCA]

PS MCJD is right: Dating is a skill.

 

I have dated men - The Gentleman, for example - because they are good at dating. If you are good at dating, it can obscure whether you are good for each other in relationship.

 

If a man will plan and initiate and be good company, then I will reciprocate with a plan of my own every two or three dates. This can go on forever, unless one or the other wants something more. Dating between two skilled daters is a convivial pleasure of shared companionship. It can include sex, or no sex, but it always adheres to certain elements of politesse and tradition. That is how each party knows its a date, feels the affection of being hosted, and knows when the date is concluded.

 

When looking for a date, be a good date. Let yourself be hosted, contribute knowledge, company, and appreciation, and return the favor. Don't interview. Let that stuff emerge.

 

When looking for a relationship, date someone first, and notice whether the relationship thing is there. If not, just date them, as long as you like, or not.

[John John]

PS MCJD is right: Dating is a skill.

 

I have dated men - The Gentleman, for example - because they are good at dating. If you are good at dating, it can obscure whether you are good for each other in relationship..

 

 

And this is exactly why I say dating is a skill that really only men have to master. Maybe you wouldn't have dated The Gentleman (maybe he's "too nice") if he wasn't good at dating (I don't exactly know what you mean by Gentleman, maybe I'm making incorrect assumptions here)? I think you make a good point how someone being really good at dating can somewhat cloud if you're viable as a coupe long-term...but it will at least allow the guy to get his foot in the door and really show you what he can do (non-sexual, FYI), as in job interviews. He at least may get a few weeks of dating the woman to show other facets of his personality.

 

This is why many nice guys stop being nice, and end up becoming PUA masters/players. They were beaten down so much that this is what they resorted to. I'm still my "too nice" self, but I keep that part hidden, or maybe I balance it out in other areas