Dating - what not to do

[notalady]

So I had a second date with a guy that I met online, whom I don't plan on seeing again. He was a nice guy but made some "classic" dating mistakes that I just couldn't see past. I'm not seeking any advice but just thought I'd share them with my fellow ENAers, sort of like a "what not to do on a date" kind of post. Feel free to share your own stories if you have any!

 

1. He kept apologising for "rambling". He wasn't rambling, he was telling stories or just elaborating on things. Granted, not the most interesting things, but I didn't mind it at all. Maybe I didn't look all that enthusiastic, but him apologising for it just came accross as lack of confidence. He also apologised several times for making unfunny jokes, even though I laughed! Again, came accross as lack of confidence.

 

2. We talked briefly about exes, and he asked if my ex was a big guy/muscular, was he tall etc. he joked that he wanted to see how he measured up (um, what?) though I don't think it was actually a joke. He's tall but a bit skinny (not too skinny though, I thought he was fine), I feel that he was self conscious about it. I said I'm not into big muscular guys, I like intelligent guys who can carry on a decent conversation.

 

3. We had coffee and lunch, I offered to pay my share, the cashier heard this and said she can split bills, he accepted. That was fine with me but honestly guys really do score extra points with me if they offer to pay for the whole thing - it's not about the money and it wasn't an expensive meal, it's just a nice gesture that shows generosity and chivalry. And I normally pay for the next meal, so it's not all one sided. Not many guys actually do that anymore, sadly. Then we went to another coffee place and just had a coffee. He paid by card and I was giving him the cash, it was $5 and I only had $3 otherwise only bigger notes, I gave him the coins I had and said I owe you $2, and he said ok and took the money. I was honestly disappointed at that one, I mean seriously, he couldn't have said don't worry about it, it's just $2? I would have. Even with just friends and acquaintances. It pays to be a little generous.

 

4. He made some jokes about being physical which made me somewhat uncomfortable (I didn't laugh). He also made a joke about me being "his girl", which also made me uncomfortable and I didn't laugh. He apologised for his cheeky sense of humour. I can handle a big variety of humour including many of what some women may consider as inappropriate, but I don't consider being overly familiar then passing it off as joking is actual humour.

 

He said that he was not good at dating, which I completely understand and empathise with. Dating is tough and not everyone is made for it. But at the same time, it's not that hard either, just apply some common sense, be confident, relax and be yourself, and know what is appropriate/inappropriate behaviour (ie what you wouldn't say to a new acquaintance, you shouldn't say to a new date either). Other than the lack of interesting conversations, the above factors really led me to decide I didn't want to continue further. I'm all for second chances and not judging someone on first or second date jitters, but the harsh reality of dating is that I do have other options and they are more interesting and more my type so I unfortunately just don't have the time and energy to give this guy another chance. Is that unfair? Maybe.

[hurtinheart]

Classic. He blew himself out of the water here on so many different levels. 90% of guys need to study before they even think about dating. If he did things right perhaps he could of gotten to the second date.

[bigtrain]

Erm...I think what you mean is that you met someone you were not compatible with. He didn't do anything wrong at all, he was just being himself and you weren't keen on it. That's fine, but to say he screwed up is a bit harsh. He wasn't rude to you, he didn't act in an unpleasant manner in any way, you were just incompatible. To be honest, I too prefer confidence, but not everybody in the world is confident and feels good about themselves. That's an unfortunate fact. I really think it would be much nicer of you to feel empathy for his insecurity and hope that he feels better soon.

 

I went out with someone for one date who mentioned his depression a lot. I liked him as a person, but I didn't want to see him again because I'm not the kind of person that could cope with going out with someone with depression right now. We were incompatible. I didn't go away thinking he's 'screwed up', though. I thought he seemed like a nice guy and I hope his depression improves.

 

As for splitting the bill, I don't know what it's like in America but in the UK it would be seen as rude NOT to split the bill, and frankly bizarre for one person to try and pay for it all unless there is a special reason (like a birthday present). I do understand there are cultural differences, though, so perhaps it's a faux pas over there, but here it would be rude to expect one person to pay the bill on a date.

[notalady]

Classic. He blew himself out of the water here on so many different levels. 90% of guys need to study before they even think about dating. If he did things right perhaps he could of gotten to the second date.

 

That is 100% correct. He would have got a third date (that was the second date) if he did things right, I would even say that I'll let a couple of things slip (like the coffee bill thing) if everything else was good.

[hurtinheart]

Hopefully he'll learn to keep his mouth shut and pay in the early stages of dating. I assume he probably won't though.

[notalady]

If you read my post carefully, I said I understand and empathise that he's not good with dating. I never said he was rude, I said he was a nice guy. If I was to be harsh, I would say the jokes about getting physical was rude and offensive. But I'm not easily offended. It did make me uncomfortable.

 

I also did not say anything about expecting a guy to pay. I said they would score extra points if they do, and also said that I would generally pay the next meal, I'm not in for a free ride and I can afford my own meals. I treat people how they treat me, ie if they are generous then I'll be generous as well. if they are calculating, then I'm not going to be generous with them. Despite all that, I also said I was fine with splitting bills in the first instance, the coffee thing though, did put me off a little. Also, I'm not from America. I'm not sure what the social expectations are here but I'm only speaking for my own preferences.

 

I don't know if he was being himself or not, I didn't say he screwed up, I merely stated the facts of what happened, and my decision to not see him again, as much as I understand that sometimes people just need a second chance. I was just putting up some of the behaviours that I thought were things you shouldn't do/say on a date (at least the first few dates). Do you disagree in that these are things you should do?

 

P.S. Having depression is a whole different story, it's a medical condition and it's something you either can or can't accept, it's like if you met someone who have kids and you didn't want kids or any other "deal breakers" for you personally, it's nothing to do with their behaviour on a date.

[bigtrain]

No I don't think you should see him again or give him a second chance, you're clearly incompatible. I guess I was referring to the fact that you said 'what not to do' and the posters here who said he made classic mistakes. He didn't do anything wrong and he doesn't have anything to learn except hopefully he will grow in confidence and become a happier person. I wouldn't suggest that he 'hides' his insecurity in order to get a girlfriend. I would suggest that he work on his insecurity for himself and get a girlfriend later. Some people, however, are totally ok with insecurity, in which case he could do it the other way around and that would be fine too.

 

All he's done is do things that are not right for you, personally. Even the jokes he made might have been right for someone else. I've certainly made jokes on dates that the other person has found too graphic, but other dates I've had have found them funny. It just depends who you are. Some people aren't compatible, that's all that happened here.

 

I'm glad that you have empathy for him and I'm sorry to offend you.

[hurtinheart]

But he DID screw up.

 

Plus, if a woman let's a man pay on the first four dates that's a sign a man can use to gauge her interest. If she insists in paying her own way, the guy is probably dead in the water. Unless she is a user. Now that's at the beginning, things change later. If she never offers to pay later on that's a problem.

[itsallgrand]

I agree that all those little things can add up to putting someone off, who may actually have had interest that could have been further developed.

 

I feel the same way as you do about splitting/paying. I am more than fine with paying my own way, and enjoy being generous with treating as well. However, if it comes to something like a cup of coffee, and someone doesn't want to take that 'risk', it would put me off too. I would do it without blinking, even for a stranger. And a coffee is a perfect example too of the level of generosity I think is fair for a first or even second date. The point is the gesture.

[notalady]

None taken you are right in that we are probably just incompatible and he's probably better off working on those insecurities rather than hiding it. However by the same token, if he hadn't shown it full blown like that, which most women would have been put off by, he would have let the women get to know him better including all his good qualities and then decide if it's worthwhile sticking around despite maybe some insecurities.

 

As for the jokes, I'm actually a pretty inappropriate joker myself (only with people I know that can handle it), but this guy joked about touching my belly and giving me a mammogram, honestly dude, I don't care what type of sense of humour you have, that is so inappropriate and not funny. I can't see any women appreciating that in the early stages of dating but who knows!

[notalady]

I agree that all those little things can add up to putting someone off, who may actually have had interest that could have been further developed.

 

I feel the same way as you do about splitting/paying. I am more than fine with paying my own way, and enjoy being generous with treating as well. However, if it comes to something like a cup of coffee, and someone doesn't want to take that 'risk', it would put me off too. I would do it without blinking, even for a stranger. And a coffee is a perfect example too of the level of generosity I think is fair for a first or even second date. The point is the gesture.

 

That is exactly my point about the coffee, it made me feel like he was a stingy person. I'm not even going so far as to say he should have just paid for the coffee, which was only $5 (it turned out to be actually $3 for me as the cashier got the order wrong, so I don't owe him anything), but at least have the slightest generosity to say don't worry about the $2.

 

Also this was the second date, the first date we did split and that's fine, I can understand that some guys are of the view that they don't want to pay for the first date (or rather, first meet) because they don't know if the girl will even be interested in going on a second date. But surely on the second date you can afford to be a little bit generous with something small like that?

[Fudgie]

You two don't sound compatible. You were turned off by his humor and lack of confidence. I don't necessarily think he did anything wrong.

 

I don't think that he "should" have paid for the date either. I get that it's tradition but it's a silly double standard. He could use the same logic on you "Well, she could have been generous and paid for both of us." Different strokes for different folks. I see nothing wrong with splitting the bill for the first few dates. You're just getting to know each other, neither of you "owes" the other anything. Save paying and treating each other for when you're going more steady. I see no reason to pay for someone (ie invest) in someone that I barely know.

 

I don't think he was "bad" at dating. He's just not the guy for you. Not everyone had the confidence you seek, and not everyone has a sense of humour that you're not going to find off putting or offensive.

[Ms Darcy]

But he DID screw up.

 

I tend to agree with this. Much of the challenge of a first date is that it's about perception. His comments made him seem lacking in confidence, insecure, and rushing into physical stuff. Had he not, she might have been interested in a second date.

 

So there were things he did for her that made her lose interest in further testing compatibility.

 

I actually think this thread is helpful for the seemingly many guys on ena who can't seem to "get" why they don't get 2nd or 3rd dates. I'm sure this guy thinks he did OK and would be pretty frustrated when you reveal your "no thanks to a second date" response.

[hurtinheart]

The paying ritual in the initial stage of dating is all part of the dance.

 

Now if a guy winds up with a girlfriend who feels entitled to have vast sums of money spent on her to "prove she's worth it"... he better run and not look back.

[itsallgrand]

That is exactly my point about the coffee, it made me feel like he was a stingy person. I'm not even going so far as to say he should have just paid for the coffee, which was only $5 (it turned out to be actually $3 for me as the cashier got the order wrong, so I don't owe him anything), but at least have the slightest generosity to say don't worry about the $2.

 

Also this was the second date, the first date we did split and that's fine, I can understand that some guys are of the view that they don't want to pay for the first date (or rather, first meet) because they don't know if the girl will even be interested in going on a second date. But surely on the second date you can afford to be a little bit generous with something small like that?

 

Yeah, I totally understand and feel the same way.

 

This thread actually made me think of a good date. A date which became a relationship for a period of time. We were already friends, and then decided to date.

On the first date, he brought me a little painting he had made. It was a still life of cookies. Particular cookies he knew I loved.

I remember buying our meal that day. lol.

 

So it's not that it has to be 'buying' something either. It is simply appreciating and liking those little gestures of giving and goodwill early on, that can signal '"I like you, I don't mind sharing something of mine with you".

[notalady]

I tend to agree with this. Much of the challenge of a first date is that it's about perception. His comments made him seem lacking in confidence, insecure, and rushing into physical stuff. Had he not, she might have been interested in a second date.

 

So there were things he did for her that made her lose interest in further testing compatibility.

 

I actually think this thread is helpful for the seemingly many guys on ena who can't seem to "get" why they don't get 2nd or 3rd dates. I'm sure this guy thinks he did OK and would be pretty frustrated when you reveal your "no thanks to a second date" response.

 

Thanks MD, that is exactly why I made this post and that is exactly my point. I'm hoping it might help some people in learning the art of dating.

 

As much as some of you say that we are just not compatible and different strokes for different folks, the harsh reality is that most people like confidence, or at least neutral (ie not a display of outright lack of confidence or insecurity), and most people appreciate generosity (whether they take advantage of someone's generosity or reciprocate it says more about them than the other person I will also go so far as to say that this is a good way for the guy to gauge if the girl is in for a free ride or she herself is a generous and independent person).

[hurtinheart]

 

I actually think this thread is helpful for the seemingly many guys on ena who can't seem to "get" why they don't get 2nd or 3rd dates. I'm sure this guy thinks he did OK and would be pretty frustrated when you reveal your "no thanks to a second date" response.

 

Thumbs up.

 

Like I said earlier 90% of guys don't know what they are doing.

 

Don't talk about anything that will hurt your cause and DON'T talk about sex!!

[notalady]

Just FYI there were also other things that he said that leaked insecurity and lack of confidence, some of those conversations regarding the factors I listed also went on a bit more that further confirmed my view, I just didn't want to put them all up.

 

Again, he really does seem like a nice guy, and I'm sure I would have seen some of his better qualities if I stick around, but I just don't have the time when I already don't like what I see this early on and have other prospects that I've also been on a couple of dates with and left better impressions. Having dated an insecure guy before helped me develop a dogs nose for insecurity lol, but also a lack of patience for insecure guys. That's just me I guess.

 

But the point stands that he's not helping himself by letting the women want to get to know him more and see if they are compatible.

[itsallgrand]

BTW, I don't mean to beat the coffee thing into oblivion! Out of what you posted here, the more toxic mix to me in initial dates has been the lacking confidence + making too many or too far physical comments (or worse, sexual).

 

I once had a first date where the man commented "wow, your boobs really are huge! I knew they were, but wow!".

 

There is nothing that could redeem that. Sure, go ahead and think it. But those are the things you censor when on a first date with a woman. lol.

[bigtrain]

Yeah, well some of this might just be social skills and nerves.

 

If people here have serious problems with dating (you NEVER get a 2nd or 3rd date or whatever) then work out why you're unhappy or why you're picking the wrong people (these are the two most obvious reasons) and give the dating a rest for a while until you've figured that out. If you are seriously lacking in social skills - most people aren't tbh - then a therapist might be able to help. For most people, it won't be a lack of social skills, it'll just be anxiety. In which case, you need to work on your anxiety FOR YOUR SAKE.

 

Rather than saying to the men here 'don't do this' or 'hide your problems' and making it sound like there is jeopardy (that's just going to make people REALLY anxious!), it might be helpful for those people to think about how they can help themselves in all areas of life so that they can feel like they can be themselves on a date. If you feel like you need to hide things - like your insecurity - or pretend to be happier than you are, then you have problems bigger than dating.

 

Perhaps this just isn't the forum for me, but all of this stuff seems to be taken as very serious and important. It's really not. Go on a date, have a nice time, if you don't, no biggie, it's just a date, not the end of the world.

 

BigTrain out, I think.

[notalady]

BTW, I don't mean to beat the coffee thing into oblivion! Out of what you posted here, the more toxic mix to me in initial dates has been the lacking confidence + making too many or too far physical comments (or worse, sexual).

 

I once had a first date where the man commented "wow, your boobs really are huge! I knew they were, but wow!".

 

There is nothing that could redeem that. Sure, go ahead and think it. But those are the things you censor when on a first date with a woman. lol.

 

Haha.... That's also a classic.

 

I agree, if it was just the coffee/split bill thing, it would have been totally fine with me. But it's the combination of things together that turned me off.

[notalady]

If you have been here a while and read enough posts, you'll see many men posting about why they don't get a second date, what are they doing wrong, how can they be more confident. The general feedback from posters are that they need to work on themselves, be comfortable in their own skin, be confident and happy in themselves etc. it's easy for confident people to put their feet up and say just work on yourself, just be confident, just be yourself, but for people who lack confidence, it's not easily done, it's a struggle. And they genuinely don't know what exactly is it that gives people the impression that they lack confidence. They want women to get to know them better, to give them a chance. And I'm posting this to show, this is exactly what someone who lacks confidence would do. Don't do that. I mean you got to start somewhere. In fact I recently saw a great TED talk about "fake it till you become it", it's a legitimate technique to help you improve confidence and acquire better social skills, if that's something you look for (which I dare say majority of people fall into this bucket.) acting confident for example, will likely lead to more success in say getting more dates, which will in turn help you feel more confident, and the positive cycle continues. No one is born confident, it's developed over time. You know you do something well so you develop confidence in this area.

 

It may seem serious to you as a reader because it's being posted and discussed, and dissected even. But it's what most people already do in their heads, just not saying out loud. You just think ok that didn't work out, no biggie, moving on, which is what everyone does, including myself. The point of this post was not to "bash" anyone, especially not the poor guy who's going to get a rejection if he chooses to ask me out again (which he may very well not, I don't know that), or to establish some kind of rule like you must do this or you must not do that. It's saying, it's not a good idea to do these things on the first few dates at least, it won't help you get more dates.

[hurtinheart]

If you don't have confidence fake it, or at the very least keep your mouth shut. Let her do most of the talking and you're covered!!

[missmarple]

All those things would definitely put me off, too...lethal combination..and OMG I cringed at 2 things: the mammogram comment and saying ok about owing him $2...the first one being 100% inappropriate, the second one being 100% cheap...I would say forget about it even if I was out with a friend!

[notalady]

I will just add that, on the issue of men paying for dates, it's a gesture that I appreciate but very low on my priority list. However, if a guy shows himself to be calculating, and/or stingy, that's an issue for me.

 

I learned many things from my last relationship and one of those things is that I don't like guys who are too calculating. My ex would always insist on things being 50/50, to almost the exact amounts. He keeps tab in his head and he would remind me he paid for this and that and so I should pay for such and such, there was really no need to do that, I knew it was my turn to pay. It even caused arguments a few times, not for the money itself but because I was really uncomfortable with his approach. One time I even had to say outright, you forgot that you ordered that expensive drink, therefore I don't owe you anything. He apologised for miscounting, but not for the fact that he was so calculating in the first place, which was what caused the problem.

 

My preference is that we both take turn to pay for things without having to keep tap of the exact amounts. I feel that a relationship should be both parties giving and being generous to the other, whether it's money or otherwise, and that builds a positive cycle, rather than both parties calculating how much they gave and expect to get back. I don't mean splurging, I just mean not being calculating, and that's what I consider a red flag for myself, if I get the sense that a guy is calculating or stingy, I will seriously reconsider if I want to continue.