Dating - what not to do

[IAmFCA]

HAHA The G got that name because of his dating skills, yes, and he was slow to make physical advances--- which almost cost him dating opportunities with me, actually. I wouldn't call it "nice", just diligent and risk averse.

 

The G is the man I dated forever, whom I used to blog about wondering if should date him or end it, like every week, and also wondering if I could show him the ropes... in the end, his reticence was evidence of a deep intimacy avoidance that I might have figured out very early, except that he is so good at dating. After I ended it, he bought me ring (?!) -- of course he did, now that I wasn't available, he wanted to marry me. How did you miss that?

 

I have learned I need to have good dating skills as well. If I don't reciprocate, then you gents will fall away. I hadn't noticed that because I am lucky enough to always have bee pursued by SOMEONE, and it wasn't until I wanted to be the Chooser and not Chosen that I realized I needed to be a better dater, so that I could communicate my interest in non-verbal, non-sexual ways. This way, I could keep someone like you around, since I know you will make sure your target reciprocates - and I think that is smart on both our parts.

 

Dating really becomes an exercise in building a new friendship, where you want to make sure both people know its a two way street.

[IAmFCA]

And PS (or PPPS, I am not sure now)

 

To the Unmentioned One -- why not? Most couplings are temporary.

 

The only thing I would hope for is honesty... beyond that, all bets are off. Its a playground out there.

[Sportster2005]

Interesting that you didn't quote the rest of that point, which was about the coffee afterwards and was what I had an issue about, along with everything else. As for offering to pay for the meal, I feel like I'm just repeating myself now, but I will just say again, I don't assume or expect guys are going to pay for me, I offer to pay for myself and genuinely mean it. It would be arrogant and presumptuous to just not offer at all, it's nothing to do with playing games or setting traps.

 

That doesn't mean that I don't appreciate a guy's generosity though and will return in kind the next time round. As mentioned in my latest update, it's very low on my priority list. On the other hand, calculating and stinginess is an issue/red flag for me.

 

I only wanted to comment on this one point, that's why. Generosity is nice. But you can't conclude if he's generous or not when you offer to pay. This isn't about paying or not paying. It'a about listening to your date. If your date wants to pay her half a man should listen and respect her wishes. I don't see why this is causing angst and confusion. One of the best dating skills we can have is listening and not second guessing intentions. This poor chap may have learned from an earlier date that scorned him because he didn't listen. I've seen threads on here where women bemoan that the man insisted on something and they got annoyed because the date didn't listen. You can't have it both ways. I often offer to pay for most of my first dates. Not always. And I'm serious when I offer. If the woman offers to pay her half, or all of it, I take her on her word that she wants to pay, and let her.

 

Say what you mean, and mean what you say.

[IAmFCA]

If I really like my date, I will let him pay. I rather like him paying. I won't even pretend to want to pay.

 

I know I will reciprocate. My favorite move is to reciprocate in a way that doesn't involve paying in front him, so he doesn't have a choice. Examples: take him somewhere where he can't pay, such as a private club; order tickets on line in advance; etc....

 

I only insist on paying when I have really been a burden, such as I am the only one who ate, or I made him take me out, in some way, and especially, if I have no intention on seeing him again AND for some reason I want to settle the bill even steven.

 

When I have been with someone who really truly sees a future with me, even when I ask to pay, he will sometimes pay anyhow. It is his way of showing he wants to take care of me, and I accept that gift as a compliment to him.

 

It is not about the money. This weekend, my guy bounded out of a bar door to pay my $5 cover. I don't even know how he knew I was there. It's five bucks. I remain charmed.

[Batya33]

"Show up on time" -- my biggest challenge in all of life. People, on time is sign of respect and all of that, I get it. If you are ADHD or otherwise challenged, being on time is one of the most difficult things to accomplish. It seems so easy to you on time people, to us, it is damn near impossible. Please don't take it personally. We forget to include the time it take to park, the time in the elevator, the walk to the meet up, that we need gas.

 

Oscar Wilde said, "Be yourself, everyone else is already taken." If you remember this, then it isn't an interview because you could care less whether you qualify for the job. You are just sharing yourself.

 

There are a number of disabilities that can affect timeliness. Especially when I was doing these first meets, I often traveled out of my way to meet the person, put an effort into dressing nicely, etc. so I expected the person to be on time OR to warn me in advance that he might be 15 minutes late because of whatever reason -that way I could plan accordingly and bring something to do, or work that needed to get done, etc. My rule was that I left after 35 minutes because I thought 30 was more than fine so I gave even the extra 5. I didn't have a cell phone when I was dating but I would give my home and work numbers to the person and call my voice mail or he could call the restaurant. Obviously there are emergencies but I would hope that if someone had a known problem with being timely that he would let me know so that I wouldn't be waiting around and wasting my time.

[IAmFCA]

Agree. I think your approach was generous.

[SoulTaker]

So I had a second date with a guy that I met online, whom I don't plan on seeing again. He was a nice guy but made some "classic" dating mistakes that I just couldn't see past. I'm not seeking any advice but just thought I'd share them with my fellow ENAers, sort of like a "what not to do on a date" kind of post. Feel free to share your own stories if you have any!

 

Notalady, here are my two cents on this topic.

 

1. He kept apologising for "rambling". He wasn't rambling, he was telling stories or just elaborating on things. Granted, not the most interesting things, but I didn't mind it at all. Maybe I didn't look all that enthusiastic, but him apologising for it just came accross as lack of confidence. He also apologised several times for making unfunny jokes, even though I laughed! Again, came accross as lack of confidence.

 

Unless he's good at storytelling, he needs to save it until the woman feels comfortable with him (later dates). Nothing is worse than a person who tells stories, and isn't good at it. Apologizing makes the situation worse.

 

2. We talked briefly about exes, and he asked if my ex was a big guy/muscular, was he tall etc. he joked that he wanted to see how he measured up (um, what?) though I don't think it was actually a joke. He's tall but a bit skinny (not too skinny though, I thought he was fine), I feel that he was self conscious about it. I said I'm not into big muscular guys, I like intelligent guys who can carry on a decent conversation.

 

He wasn't joking. He was trying to see how he measured up against men in your past. It could be related to something in his past, physical insecurity,.... Who knows. It's not the most self-confident thing to inquire about. If you had a problem with his physical build, then he wouldn't have gotten a second date with you. He should have known that.

 

3. We had coffee and lunch, I offered to pay my share, the cashier heard this and said she can split bills, he accepted. That was fine with me but honestly guys really do score extra points with me if they offer to pay for the whole thing - it's not about the money and it wasn't an expensive meal, it's just a nice gesture that shows generosity and chivalry. And I normally pay for the next meal, so it's not all one sided. Not many guys actually do that anymore, sadly. Then we went to another coffee place and just had a coffee. He paid by card and I was giving him the cash, it was $5 and I only had $3 otherwise only bigger notes, I gave him the coins I had and said I owe you $2, and he said ok and took the money. I was honestly disappointed at that one, I mean seriously, he couldn't have said don't worry about it, it's just $2? I would have. Even with just friends and acquaintances. It pays to be a little generous.

 

This is always a toxic area. Whether men like it or not, they will be judged on whether they pay. If the man is into the woman, then he should pay to not leave a negative impression. For a coffee date (little money), it's a no brainer. This is no different than men judging women on the type of restaurant she asks to be taken too (expensive, modest, coffee place,...).

 

4. He made some jokes about being physical which made me somewhat uncomfortable (I didn't laugh). He also made a joke about me being "his girl", which also made me uncomfortable and I didn't laugh. He apologised for his cheeky sense of humour. I can handle a big variety of humour including many of what some women may consider as inappropriate, but I don't consider being overly familiar then passing it off as joking is actual humour.

 

This comes accross as immature. How was he during the first date? Did he feel that he won you over to the point where he could make these types of statements on a second date?

 

He said that he was not good at dating, which I completely understand and empathise with. Dating is tough and not everyone is made for it. But at the same time, it's not that hard either, just apply some common sense, be confident, relax and be yourself, and know what is appropriate/inappropriate behaviour (ie what you wouldn't say to a new acquaintance, you shouldn't say to a new date either). Other than the lack of interesting conversations, the above factors really led me to decide I didn't want to continue further. I'm all for second chances and not judging someone on first or second date jitters, but the harsh reality of dating is that I do have other options and they are more interesting and more my type so I unfortunately just don't have the time and energy to give this guy another chance. Is that unfair? Maybe.

 

Dating is something that if you're not a natural, you continue to work at improving yourself, and not make weak excuses for your behavior. If he's been on previous dates in his past, then he's made little attempt to improve his dating habits (such as reading these type of forums). A person only has one time to make a first impression. You gave him a second opportunity, which probably confirmed your impression of him based on the first date.

[IAmFCA]

SoulTaker's parse of the date is spot on.

 

What not to do on a first-ish date: Compare oneself to someone else, focus on physical traits of anyone, anywhere, get too personal too soon, assume a future with the other person. These judgments are okay to make; they indicate much more than dating skills - also indicate social skills, an expectation of success or failure, a sense of one's place relative to others.

 

What TO DO: Both parties, be prepared to pay the whole tab. Just in case. Have a back up plan - if it goes well, if it goes poorly, if your meet up spot has an emergency and is closed... Bring a memory with you of your initial communication so you can pull a theme into face to face conversation. Develop a subject you share in common more deeply, such as exchange skiing stories, parenting stories, biking stories, etc. Story telling helps illuminate what sort of choices we make.

 

Thank you SoulTaker for parsing the original post.

[happpybear]

Let's face it...the art of dating is something that really only us men have the burden or learning and mastering. I'm sorry, but most of us don’t care about a woman's confidence (LMAO), her body language, or if she makes any jokes that fall flat or are even slightly inappropriate...

 

Your post was great, however I don't agree with this part and am more inclined to agree with what ITIC wrote below.

 

I have learned I need to have good dating skills as well. If I don't reciprocate, then you gents will fall away.

 

Dating really becomes an exercise in building a new friendship, where you want to make sure both people know its a two way street.

 

I believe this because I know that when I was younger and attempting to date I was probably the female equivalent of notalady's date (minus the inappropriate jokes). I had no clue what I was doing, didn't know how to flirt or show genuine interest and had problems keeping conversations going because I was so shy.

 

I remember these cringe-worthy gems: mumbling a lot, never looking at my dates in the eyes, blushing so hard that I fogged-up my own glasses (yes, one can actually do this!) and saying really dumb things like "I fall down a lot" (when you are so nervous that only verbal diarrhea comes out of your mouth)....

 

I knew I was asked out because they thought I was cute, but that really wasn't enough to keep them coming back after my behaviour on our dates.

[SoulTaker]

ITIC, you make a good point in that it's about overall social skills, and not just dating skills. Dating is not only about learning about the other person, it's also about learning more about yourself in order to be a better dater.

[John John]

Thank you happybear, I appreciate that And totally respect that you don't agree with a portion of what I said (especially because you have the experience to back this up).

 

In your case...yes, maybe you were the equivalent of notalady's guy and the guys you were dating maybe didn't come back, but I'd wager that there are probably more guys who would've still given you a second/third date (myself included!) even with those silly things you said you did. I honestly found that very endearing, and it's only increased my happybear fandimonioum lol

 

Lots of guys I don't think would be given the same "leniency" (for lack of a better, less authoritarian term).

[Natasha24]

I would disagree with most of this. I don't think this is a list of "What Not To Do" on dates. I think this is a list of "What Not To Do On Dates With This Particular Person".

 

I've been dating for a couple years and it drives me crazy when guys offer to pay/don't let me pay for myself/pay for me and then don't let me pay them back for my share. It makes me feel like a child and it makes me uncomfortable.

 

It kind of sounds like he was "set up to fail". You didn't want him to ask about your ex - but you willingly talked about your ex. You didn't want him to let you pay - but you offered him money twice.

 

I don't know. It just sounds like you guys aren't compatible. I prefer to pay my own way on dates, I love cheeky/inappropriate humour, and I appreciate a guy who is ballsy enough to say something like "my girl" on a first date (as opposed to guys who think they need to "play it cool" and not even mention becoming exclusive for 3 months). It's unfortunate that you guys didn't get along but I don't think this guy needs to change a thing.

 

I understand the appeal of dating a guy with confidence and a guy you can tell has been around the dating block a few times. However, there is something to be said about guys who are shy, sweet, nervous and fumbling their words. My boyfriend was like this on our first date and it was incredibly endearing. That's one of the biggest reasons why I wanted to see him for a second date.

[Blue Spiral]

Knowing this, many men go into these dates even more nervous than they need to/should be, and thus end up in a vicous cycle of failure. Women for the most part just need to be have a friendly and somewhat interesting personality and be attractive to the guy in question (and have a decent career/job, although many don't even need that).

 

I'm way too insecure to ever try anything like that. To me, dating sounds like putting your ego through an industrial meat-grinder. I'm sorry...I've already been through a lot, I don't think I could take it.

 

This is why many nice guys stop being nice, and end up becoming PUA masters/players. They were beaten down so much that this is what they resorted to. I'm still my "too nice" self, but I keep that part hidden, or maybe I balance it out in other areas

 

That's how I started out--I was all substance and no style, and I thought that being a good person was enough. Now, I have just enough style to be effective, and I ditched "substance" entirely, because it wasn't getting me anywhere.

[weathergirl]

I agree with Fudgie. You weren't compatible and you didn't feel enough chemistry with him (that elusive "spark"). I think if you HAD felt that spark and chemistry with him, you would have found his jokes hilarious, and even the comment he made about how big and muscular your ex's were.... you probably would have thought was cute.

 

Re him letting you pay...if you felt chemistry with him...it probably wouldn't have been a big deal.

 

I don't think he made mistakes and did anything wrong. He just wasn't for you. NEXT!

[happpybear]

Thank you happybear, I appreciate that And totally respect that you don't agree with a portion of what I said (especially because you have the experience to back this up).

 

In your case...yes, maybe you were the equivalent of notalady's guy and the guys you were dating maybe didn't come back, but I'd wager that there are probably more guys who would've still given you a second/third date (myself included!) even with those silly things you said you did. I honestly found that very endearing, and it's only increased my happybear fandimonioum lol

 

Lots of guys I don't think would be given the same "leniency" (for lack of a better, less authoritarian term).

 

Aww, where the hell were you when I was 19? lol

 

I get what you are saying in that as long as she checks off some of your boxes even if she makes mistakes that you will continue to date her, that's really admirable of you! I feel that is rare in this world now, people are so fickle--but anyway that is a topic for another thread

 

And I am not trying to imply that notalady is fickle or wrong here, she seems like an experienced dater who knows herself very well. I think it's great that she gave him a second date, and the inappropriate comments would have put me off too. I think its simply a case of not being compatible and the fact that he was a disaster just made it more obvious.

 

I'm more lenient about this stuff because I have been there, been that awkward person, and I do agree (in general) that there is more pressure on men in society to be the chaser and to lead, so I wonder if perhaps that has something to do with what you are saying (that men are more lenient), in that you know how hard it is to be "perfect" on the date, and so then are less inclined to expect perfection....I dunno, just pondering out loud

 

 

 

I understand the appeal of dating a guy with confidence and a guy you can tell has been around the dating block a few times. However, there is something to be said about guys who are shy, sweet, nervous and fumbling their words. My boyfriend was like this on our first date and it was incredibly endearing. That's one of the biggest reasons why I wanted to see him for a second date.

 

I totally agree with this too, I find shy behavior a sign of humbleness, and there is nothing wrong with that at all! My last BF was an absolute disaster on our first date, I totally found it endearing because he knew he was a mess but still soldiered on and was able to handle his side of a very funny and intelligent conversation despite his shaking, blushing and sweating (yes I know, gross, but I thought it was cute lol)

[happy_snapper]

What not to do: Dating

[John John]

What not to do: Dating

 

Made my night! Hence why I'm still on sabbatical. Mrs. MCJD can just find me! Ha!

[itsallgrand]

What not to do: Dating

 

Lol.

 

But nooo, because this thread is loaded up with awesome people who need to be in the dating pool!!!

[weathergirl]

A date with the wrong person feels like a job interview. When you have good chemistry (physical and emotional and mental), you "click" with that person and it feels really natural. Not like a job interview at all.

 

If you're "trying" to impress and stressed in a date, you're either in the wrong mindset or with the wrong person. Or both.

 

Again, have to agree with Fudgie. It's all about chemistry....and if we're feeling it...it's amazing how many stupid jokes we will laugh at... think his insecurity is endearing... etc. That's been my experience anyway.

 

nota....if this guy turned you off...then fair enough. But I really do believe if you had felt some energy/chemistry with him...many of the things you found turned you off...you would have let slide or actually thought were cute. I've done it myself!

[IAmFCA]

What not to do: Dating

 

LOL, just got it.

[IAmFCA]

happybear, your dating history .... ouch! that is good fodder for at least one good stand-up comedy routine. Make it work for you!! Oh my goodness, the line about fogging up your own glasses. Killed it. I went on a date once with a guy who, at our first date, in a nice, full service, white table cloth restaurant that is also kind of a scene... he began to sweat profusely. From the top of his head. He put a napkin on top of his head. OMG I about died. And I felt for him too, what's a man to do in that scenario? I haven't a clue. Poor guy. He must have felt awful.

[journeynow]

And last week when he dated someone and he insisted on paying the woman was annoyed for not respecting her independence on not listening. If you want the guy to pay don't offer to pay half. Sounds like your setting traps and playing games.

 

As a male the major no, no I've come accross is:

 

When on a date I always insist on paying, its the gentleman thing to do, not splitting the bill but paying 100% However, its always nice for the girl to offer to pay. I think its rude if someone doesn't offer. Id never accept their gesture but at the same time it shows good manners.

 

It's a mind field. I tend to agree that if you EXPECT the guy to pay, don't offer to pay half. Or if you do offer to pay half, don't hold it against him if he accepts, don't make it a big deal. I know it's just one of a number of things that turned the OP off, but it might be a compatibility issue, too.

[faraday]

I love this thread.

 

I do think a lot of it chemistry. I've went on many first dates...and those with chemistry...they really couldn't do anything wrong...but those that lacked chemistry? They "made mistakes" too. Oddly the same mistakes the guy with chemistry could totally get away with.

 

*shrugs*

[John John]

I love this thread.

 

I do think a lot of it chemistry. I've went on many first dates...and those with chemistry...they really couldn't do anything wrong...but those that lacked chemistry? They "made mistakes" too. Oddly the same mistakes the guy with chemistry could totally get away with.

 

*shrugs*

 

 

Exactly. If they guy looks like a Hollywood celeb, he can pretty much do no wrong. All other guys (even ones that are decently above average/average-ish with good jobs) don't have this luxury. But I suppose the same is true for the reverse case (men evaluating women on first dates).

[journeynow]

Dating by eating has always seemed like an odd custom to me. At least for initially determining interest.