How to Deal with a Curve Ball I NEVER Saw Coming (death by puns)

[BellaDonna]

Hi TOV. If I were you I would not sleep with him. He sounds like he'll be a "wam, bam, thank you m'am" type, and a waste of your time and energy overall. Don't give him the full golden ticket. lol

 

He sounds inexperienced and is probably used to his looks getting him by.

 

Based on your recap, it seems the only time he was interested in really connecting with you and in tune with you, was when he gave the first massage, before you ever did anything sexual with him.

He sounds like a lost little boy of sorts.

 

The only purpose he's served, as far as I can see, is getting you to think sexual thoughts again and feel attraction. Consider it good practice for when something better comes along.

 

I would NOT write him a letter. He doesn't sound deep enough to appreciate it. I would not let him know you got condoms either and were even entertaining the idea of going all the way with him. That gives him too much power. Remain cool, calm, collected.

[tiredofvampires]

I really do appreciate everyone's input, again -- and wanted to give a shout-out to the guys, all 3 of them, haha, who posted.

 

But about the note situation, I think it would be a bad idea, because if you write a note it will most likely be thrown away (definitely if he reads a part that he doesn't like he might just stop reading then and get rid of it). Also giving him a note seems so low, I mean if you really want to get this threw to him a note would not suffice (I don't know how to really project what I'm saying from this statement but its more like you would get more satisfaction from confronting him, feeling more empowered, if that is your wish).

 

Thank you for your kind words about my writing, Notbad. As for what you've said here, I think you're probably right about him not reading the note, or throwing it away. I think I'd have tried to write something non-accusatory, and trying to stay away from a tone that sounds "scorned" (as RedDress put it) -- just a heartfelt view of life and relating, as I see it should be in the world.

 

I also agree with you though that there's something indirect about notes. It's like you didn't have the courage to say it to their face.

 

And for that reason, it doesn't matter how good the note is of a read, I really can't do either. Because as more days lapse here and the whole thing becomes less likely to even arise, I feel that all the advice here to just withdraw is really the best.

 

TOV, you are by far my favorite poster on here so it pains me to see that you are in such a situation that said this guy isn't worth your time and I suggest moving on without contacting him again.

 

Thank you, that's such a lovely thing to say Brian and it touches me that you'd post with this kind of concern. It means a lot to me that you took the time to read my OP and post, because I really had hoped for more guy opinions on this -- especially guys who have had all sorts of opportunities with the ladies.

[Silverbirch]

Hi TOV, I agree with Bella Donna. I think you are deserving of someone more sophisticated, but warm as well - and I think you should move on from him and become open to the idea of a new lover - one who has more to offer. Yes, I love your writing too.

[tiredofvampires]

I really appreciate your saying that, Silver. Thank you. You're right about the sophistication issue. Absolutely.

 

I think what's gotten me in a snarl about this is that...sometimes sex that's raw and spontaneous is not all that sophisticated, and I've had relatively little of that in my life. So I was kind of hoping to see what that was like before I die (that being a sort of running theme for me these days. Not to sound morbid, but...)

 

I've had rough PLAY with serious partners, and raw, "dirty" passion. But I imagine there's another whole layer to it when by the nature of the contact, it's ONLY about that. So I guess I'm going to have to wonder about that the rest of my life, because of who I am, what my history is, my difficulties and challenges. And it may sound twisted, but I wish all those complexities about me could just be wiped away....for just a night or two.

 

BellaDonna raised a really good point with this:

 

He sounds inexperienced and is probably used to his looks getting him by.

 

It's quite counter-intuitive that one could call such a guy "inexperienced" when he may have had more sexual partners in his day than I have, spread out over all this time. I don't know his partner count, but I sense that his MO involves some significant "mileage", as it's called on this board. Yet, I don't think being experienced = having the same experience again and again. Repeating the same moves, the same gross stunts, the same acts. After a while, it's not experience, it's just repetition, and I think he's probably used to bedding women who are not attuned to their bodies, who don't even know what they need to orgasm, who have no clue what is possible with sex. I think his knowledge base is this, and no one ever saying, "Hey, this is hardly what good sex is about", and probably notions culled from porn, which we all know does not accurately depict what women really want out of a sexual experience.

 

Bella, I also agree about him being a "lost little boy." (and that element was actually part of what took away from my attraction to him as we became more buddyish). Ironically, men who are suave ladies' men often are that, underneath it all, don't you think? I think the man has some demons, and what's funny is that even though when he smiles it's radiant and warm, his DEFAULT expression is one that slightly disturbs me and always has. It's this somewhat shut off, hardened, look. There's something dark and tough in him, that's very guarded. I know only the merest basics about his early life, and it was a broken home. In his own words, he's from "the ghetto". I feel that he's trying to better himself, to climb up in the world -- to be ambitious, "righteous", etc. And his career is going to be in an industry which is quite sophisticated (hospitality, hotel management, etc.) Where I live is the capital of the world for that. He prides himself in wanting to live a classy life.

 

So that's part of why this has been such a mind-f. How can someone have so many solid goals, and be such a flake where the rubber meets the road??

 

AND HOW CAN SOMEONE CARE ABOUT ANOTHER PERSON AND THEN JUST NOT CARE? (to UNCARE)

 

I'd like to think that I understand human behavior, even that which doesn't look like my own. But in my world of reasoning, you either care about someone and that transcends various situations with them, or you don't care and never did.

 

And unless someone does something outrageous and reprehensible, how can you start out respecting them, and then just not respect them?

 

I don't know how this works.

 

I have been propositioned by lots of guys, been offered lots of massages in my time, and so this is not new to me. But all those were situations where I didn't have any time to get to know the guy, and it was a blatant player act. I've never fallen for those, even when the guy was attractive. THIS, I thought, was DIFFERENT, because we've been living together for a third of a year, and have come to share not only a living space, but a bit of our lives.

 

So I can't wrap my head around this disconnect, and it still feels like a wound.

 

I repeat with great emphasis: I was not hoping for this to become anything more, romantically. I am VERY CLEAR that his life and mine can't and don't match in that way, so I have a line in the sand drawn there. But I had not expected signs of thoughtless uncaring.

 

And for me, the equivalent of "wanting to get laid" after a dry spell was wanting to be TOUCHED and caressed after a dry spell. It didn't have to be oral sex, or something heavy. Just feeling physically appreciated and given some lovin' touch would have been my "fix", and I'd have walked away feeling it was even.

[quirky]

AND HOW CAN SOMEONE CARE ABOUT ANOTHER PERSON AND THEN JUST NOT CARE?

 

I'd like to think that I understand human behavior, even that which doesn't look like my own. But in my world of reasoning, you either care about someone and that transcends various situations with them, or you don't care and never did.

 

I have wondered this so many times.. I simply don't get that either. I end up feeling like I invented the guy.

[Silverbirch]

AND HOW CAN SOMEONE CARE ABOUT ANOTHER PERSON AND THEN JUST NOT CARE?

 

I'd like to think that I understand human behavior, even that which doesn't look like my own. But in my world of reasoning, you either care about someone and that transcends various situations with them, or you don't care and never did.

 

Well, I'd say most of us have had that experience of being drawn in by/attracted to another person who turns out to have very little substance or depth to their emotions.

 

 

It's quite counter-intuitive that one could call such a guy "inexperienced" when he may have had more sexual partners in his day than I have, spread out over all this time.

 

My ex-ex's first sexual experience was with the "babysitter". He was 14 at the time and very proud of that. When I pieced things together, he'd had sex with many, many women, but when I look back now, having had more positive sexual experiences - as blunt as it sounds, he was a dud in the sack. I've only had 2 partners since him, and know that neither of them had the amount of partners anywhere like the ex-ex, but sex with them has been infinitely more enjoyable - especially with the current SO - partly because he is so "giving" and affectionate.

 

I think what's gotten me in a snarl about this is that...sometimes sex that's raw and spontaneous is not all that sophisticated, and I've had relatively little of that in my life. So I was kind of hoping to see what that was like before I die (that being a sort of running theme for me these days. Not to sound morbid, but...)

 

LOL, well you aren't dead yet and it's sounding like it didn't take long after you had ventured out of your usual world to at least attract a man (albeit not warm or mildly sophisticated). Keep venturing out, and I'm sure the opportunity (or perhaps many) will arise.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

sometimes sex that's raw and spontaneous is not all that sophisticated, and I've had relatively little of that in my life. So I was kind of hoping to see what that was like before I die (that being a sort of running theme for me these days. Not to sound morbid, but...)

 

And it may sound twisted, but I wish all those complexities about me could just be wiped away....for just a night or two.

 

ToV, I think you are in a very unhappy period in your life and that is why you are focusing so heavily on animal sex...it is a distraction from what is really going on with you. The thing is you had the booty call and it didn't do anything for you...and I suspect that even if the guy had given you your fantasy of closeness for a night or two, in the end you still would have been feeling unfulfilled because it doesn't take away the issues that are really at the core of why you are focusing so much on trying to have casual sex experience.

 

In life it is not necessary to experience everything in order to be fulfilled...but it is necessary to be generally happy with the life and positive experiences we are given because that is how we will be fulfilled.

[Batya33]

Hi TOV, I agree with Bella Donna. I think you are deserving of someone more sophisticated, but warm as well - and I think you should move on from him and become open to the idea of a new lover - one who has more to offer. Yes, I love your writing too.

 

TOV - I apologize for not reading all of your posts - my excuse is I am rushed for time and I hope you accept my excuse because what I have read is so insightful and eloquent as others have written here when I skimmed some posts. I wanted to respond with what Silverbirch wrote above - it made me cringe to think of you settling for someone like this. Please don't.

[tiredofvampires]

Still working my way to replies...

 

TOV - I apologize for not reading all of your posts - my excuse is I am rushed for time and I hope you accept my excuse because what I have read is so insightful and eloquent as others have written here when I skimmed some posts. I wanted to respond with what Silverbirch wrote above - it made me cringe to think of you settling for someone like this. Please don't.

 

Apology accepted, Batya (though no need to apologize). It IS quite an in-depth thread (then again, on the very rare occasions I make a thread, it usually IS involved.)

 

You're right -- I've had the very, very best of input here. Incredible posts from everyone, and also being die-hards to read the long OP. I had a very hard time wondering if I wanted to post this, but I'm glad I did. Usually I come to ENA because I like trying to help other people through their stuff...but now and again, I have stuff, too. haha And this is pretty big stuff to me, especially where I'm at in life all around.

 

Thank you for weighing in, and corroborating the voices here, which don't seem divided. I'm a bit surprised at HOW consistent the advice has been about what I should do/not do, but that element helps as well.

 

Now it'd just be perfect if I could get some guy input here. As only like 3 guys have posted, and this is a topic that I'd love to get the male perspective on (especially if you've had such encounters before, but any man, really). So if any of you out there checking out this thread have a penis, lol, please come here and add your two cents! Thanks in advance.

[Capricorn3]

Oh man, I've been wanting to get to this thread for ages but just never have enough time and too many other things getting in the way. I've been trying hard to keep up, but after reading the replies so far, I feel I really don't have anything to add because everyone has already given such eloquent and brilliant advice and all I can say is that I pretty much agree with the vast majority of replies. To quote BellaDonna (which covers it well):

 

"Hi TOV. If I were you I would not sleep with him. He sounds like he'll be a "wam, bam, thank you m'am" type, and a waste of your time and energy overall. Don't give him the full golden ticket. lol

 

He sounds inexperienced and is probably used to his looks getting him by.

 

Based on your recap, it seems the only time he was interested in really connecting with you and in tune with you, was when he gave the first massage, before you ever did anything sexual with him.

He sounds like a lost little boy of sorts.

 

The only purpose he's served, as far as I can see, is getting you to think sexual thoughts again and feel attraction. Consider it good practice for when something better comes along.

 

I would NOT write him a letter. He doesn't sound deep enough to appreciate it. I would not let him know you got condoms either and were even entertaining the idea of going all the way with him. That gives him too much power. Remain cool, calm, collected."

 

Walk tall, head held high, and keep walking.

[tiredofvampires]

There is another twist to this.

 

I don’t know if it explains any of his behavior. But in an insidious way, it plays also into my bad feelings, in some indirect way I don’t fully understand yet.

 

I'm still trying to work out what's attracted me to this guy, besides the most obvious, with his looks and aura (which as I said, is not enough to captivate me alone, and conventionally good-looking men have never been my go-to types.)

 

I sense some kind of emotional depth in this man, and for however submerged it may be, and embryonic in his ability to express it, and obscured by self-centeredness and narcissism, something during my stay there broke the mold of that, with regards to his orientation to women.

 

After about a month of my being there, I began to see him court a woman -- with flowers, making her dinner, the works. I actually had a bit of an "aww, that's cute" mixed feeling about seeing it. She then slept over a few times, and they'd come in and out from dates (this was before we were conversing much). This kicked the "Welp, I'm not even going to flirt with him" into high gear, which was pretty effective at snuffing out the crush thoughts. I was sure it was a budding romance. (Not that I would have had designs on him, but it was like a bucket of icewater over the head anyways.)

 

Then I stopped seeing her around and it seemed mysteriously over. And some time after all that, he confided in me that he has an ex (someone he'd referred to before, more than once) who was still in his life, and that they have remained very close and consider eachother dear friends. Having a relationship like that myself, I could relate to that. But then he said "She's the love of my life...I mean, she's my heart" and literally put his hand over his heart. "I mean, I want to marry this girl," he said. I wanted to just ask, "Well then...what's stopping you?" but it seemed too invasive a question for the moment, so I just asked what happened. He said she was his high school sweetheart, from age 17...and that after high school, they lived together for 4 years. The last year, they started to "drift" and decided to go experience other directions and things. I don't know how much of this was a mutual decision, and of course it's too little info to base anything on. But what was clear is, he has someone he's involved with in a long-distance way, whom he is calling his "friend". Yet he also called her "my lady" when he spoke of his love for her.

 

Several times he's referred to her and each time made a point of saying, "my friend." I said, "I thought you had a girlfriend at one point..." and he said, "I don't have a girlfriend, no."

 

Then she had a break between semesters at school -- and she bought tickets to fly out here to see him. He told me she was very stressed (she's a first-year law student), it's been 2 years since they've seen eachother (which sounded like missing eachother was involved), and he wanted to give her a chance to see the beauty here. The plan was, she'd come and stay here for about 5 days, and he wanted to make it absolutely perfect for her. He had misgivings though about the landlady letting her stay in his room and use the bathroom, and whether some BS would explode in the house while she was there; so, being very protective of her, he consulted with me about what he should do. I ended up literally standing by him (as moral support) while he asked the landlady for her permission for this guest stay, and she agreed. Afterwards, he was so relieved, he was laughing and jumping up and down, and I fist-bumped him. See? Big sister stuff all the way, no?

 

When she came, I didn't see much of her, as she was studying in his room a lot of the time. But one night he introduced her to me, and I was very surprised -- she was nothing like I'd pictured. First of all, even though she had a pretty smile, I didn't see her as the type of girl you'd pick out of a crowd as pretty. She was on the homely side, in fact (though I can see how she'd become beautiful to the guy who loved her). Not what you'd call alluring or worldly by any means. She had a lovely demeanor -- very, very, SUPER sweet, and VERY innocent-looking, almost to the point of my thinking she seemed virginal (though I'm sure she wasn't, especially having lived together). Her clothing was a bit conservative -- not concealing, but not going out of the way to exude sexiness. Soft-spoken and a little uptight in the shoulders, she didn't project ease to me, or even confidence. I almost felt like conversationally, I had to not overwhelm her. I certainly couldn't see her as a lawyer.

 

He treated her like gold while she was here. One night, I peeked at them on the loveseat watching tv, and saw her leaning into him (the familiar cuddle posture), and his arm was around her. Then when they got up to go out for dinner, he rubbed her back in such a gentle way. He dressed up to the nines checking himself in the mirror and asking me if he looked okay, and she was just rather simply/plainly dressed. I must say, it looked like a conspicuous mismatch, with his dashing, debonair Jose Cuervo flair and her somewhat prim, demure, understated get-up. One thing I found cute was that she was trying to reassure him that he looked fine, and wasn't swooning over him, but just treating it as an ordinary moment of familiarity. As a person, how could anyone not see her as a total sweetie pie...but I totally was picturing someone fiesty, dressy, and sophisticated looking. This was anything but.

 

So what's the point of this, you ask? I saw and heard them interacting, and everything he said and did was about giving her everything he could to ease her stress, making sure she was having a good time, looking after her. I overheard him say "I love you, too" a number of times, and he was totally AVAILABLE, as a guy anyone would feel respected and adored by, during this stay. So this was not just the gentleman he puts on at work, but this was the way he was treating someone he LOVES and who MATTERS to him.

 

And this made me think...the guy obviously has it in him, right? Has it in him to care? To really, really care? To love. To say "I love you." To not keep someone at a lofty and callous distance, using and discarding anything that comes his way looking like feminine vulnerability.

 

I want to make it very clear that I didn't take from that that he would feel that way about me -- obviously, that's someone with a lot of history with him, and all the other reasons. But it was just an observation that seemed more congruent with someone who is emotionally capable and UNSELFISH than the selfish and unfeeling person he became with me. It's like...who he was with me, especially on the second night...seemed like a different person from this one a few months ago.

 

I don't know if any of this factored into the way he bolted out of the room the first night with me. But that dawned on me. He was still referring to her as his "friend" even after she left. So this is all speculative. But part of me wonders if there is someone he really has his heart in, and the only way to make his wanderlust with another woman "not count" would be to make an encounter with me (or any other woman he is having flings with) as SOULESS as humanly possible.

 

Like, maybe if he showed zero care and didn't attempt to please me at all...it'd resemble a relationship so little, it "wouldn't count," in his mind.

 

I don't know what any of you think of that. Or if you think this could have something to do with the way he was acting. Because I don't sense he was lying that they are not "officially" bf and gf. I could be wrong, but he was pretty unwavering in that framing of their relationship, even before this got sexual with me.

 

But the impact this has on me has had the peculiar effect of making me feel particularly passed over. I know it's irrational, it doesn't even relate to him as more than a symbol, and it's something I've expressed on this board before, ages ago, just in less sexual and specific contexts.

 

She must be quite a special lady to command such a character and his heart. Interestingly enough...I sense I'd relate to hers more than his.

 

This should be no reflection on me, and yet, in translation...I mean...when you (a couple) have that...why would anyone need or want what he did with me? And how could he see me as anything BUT meat, to resolve his cognitive dissonance?

 

I feel the razor sharp distinction now of "people that matter" and "people that don't matter" with him.

 

I'm on the latter team. I'm not sure why I get picked for that team a lot, and usually I'm not aware of it until after the fact. This just brings up some really old stuff.

 

I want to be chosen like that. LIKE THAT. Not like this. Like THAT.

 

I want to be the Other One...the Not-Me one in this scenario.

 

The "real deal" is for others. Isn't it?

 

Even a selfish douchebag to me is capable of being someone else's prince.

 

I wonder if I'm making a particle of sense. This is starting to feel like a warped journal entry. lol....bah.

[Silverbirch]

You're making sense to me TOV. You had hoped, though you weren't being unrealistic, that maybe this guy would treat you the same way. Well, he didn't because he has already given his heart to somebody else. That might be why the other girl wasn't hanging around for long either. The thing is that the girl who he is enamored with is somebody he knew for a long time whereas you only knew him for a couple of months. Also, he may not have been like that with her when they were together - he might have treated her in a similar way.

 

Thing is, having articulated here, you are clearer about what you want - the full things. You know there are people in intimate, affectionate and caring relationships who get to have the raw sex thing sometimes too. I don't think you are past it by any means.

 

BTW, the way you write, somehow reminds me a little of Emily Bronte and Anais Nin but with other styles mixed in which I'm uncertain of - I can't explain it. I've had a copy of "?Shades of Grey" for ages and haven't been bothered to even open it. With what I hear, I'm not sure I'll be interested. Have you ever thought of writing female erotica. I have this hunch that you could do it well.

[Avila]

[quote=tiredofvampires;5493503

AND HOW CAN SOMEONE CARE ABOUT ANOTHER PERSON AND THEN JUST NOT CARE? (to UNCARE)

 

I'd like to think that I understand human behavior, even that which doesn't look like my own. But in my world of reasoning, you either care about someone and that transcends various situations with them, or you don't care and never did.

 

And unless someone does something outrageous and reprehensible, how can you start out respecting them, and then just not respect them?

 

I don't know how this works.

 

 

I think many of us on this board struggle with this exact thing. Personally I've stopped trying to puzzle it out as it does cause you unnecessary frustration. It simply isn't worth the mental effort that you could be spending on something more fruitful. He's a player. It sounds like you got what you needed out of the situation and learned what you didn't need. If you were purely interested in sex, than play him back. I doubt that would make you happy.

 

And as everyone else here has stated. Wonderful writing. I was riveted.

[Realitynut]

I started to read this thread, and i got all giggly and excited....grabbed a bag of chips and hunkered down to enjoy a tale of romance.

 

Then CRAP! It ended up like all of my 'encounters'.

 

Been there, done that..numerous times. Does wonders for my ego. Except that I'm MUCH older.

Ditto on it awakening something that's been dead inside of you tho. ummmm...except i woulda gone for it without condoms.

 

It was like i was there....right with you....relating to you....but in my mind....i was remembering when it happened to me! The shock that someone won't/can't cuddle afterwards?? Mine said immediately after, as i was crawling up to his head to lay next to him...'i don't do commitments or relationships'....ahhhh....

Memories.

 

Gotta get to bed...or i'd be writing a book too! Enjoyable as it was....i like HAPPY ENDINGS.....oh was that a pun?? lol

[Silverbirch]

I started to read this thread, and i got all giggly and excited....grabbed a bag of chips and hunkered down to enjoy a tale of romance.

 

Then CRAP! It ended up like all of my 'encounters'.

 

Been there, done that..numerous times. Does wonders for my ego. Except that I'm MUCH older.

Ditto on it awakening something that's been dead inside of you tho. ummmm...except i woulda gone for it without condoms.

 

It was like i was there....right with you....relating to you....but in my mind....i remember when it happened to me! The shock that someone won't/can't cuddle afterwards?? Mine said immediately after, as i was crawling up to his head to lay next to him...'i don't do commitments or relationships'....ahhhh....

Memories.

 

Gotta get to bed...or i'd be writing a book too! Enjoyable as it was....i like HAPPY ENDING.....oh was that a pun?? lol

 

 

See what I mean about a talent for writing erotica TOV? Just maybe a little bit more juicier . . . . but not too much

[Crazyaboutdogs]

While he may have not behaved so wonderfully, I think you also need to take responsibility for your own role in this. You were actually lucky that you saw him shower affection on another lady because your eyes were completely open to the fact that his heart was engaged. So knowing this, you still went in there offering yourself to him..there was no way you were going to get any kind of affection from him when it was clear his heart was elsewhere...with someone closer to his own age. You need to be realistic about this...you in your forties, he in his twenties...it was not very likely that this was going to be anything other than getting his sexual needs met.

[Silverbirch]

I think that from time to time, there are intimate relationships which develop between people where there is a wide age difference - more so with older men and younger women. I don't think it is unreasonable for TOV to have expected more at least than she got simply on the basis of the age difference - but yeah, I think it was a lot more to do with the previous girlfriend who he is still enamored with.

[EQIQ]

Just read your last post about how he was all lovey dovey with that Long Distance girl, etc.

 

Here is my perspective. There are times we just want sex. We don't want romance, love, we want sex. There is also the curiosity and familiarity factor that comes into this too. You see each other often. Are in the same house, which psychologically might trigger some sense of "partnership" that is akin to couples/married people living together. The curiosity of... "hmmm an older gal that looks not too shabby... I wonder what that would feel like". For example, men find different ways to masturbate, not because one feels particularly better than the other, it is just a variety thing, even if we have a one preferred method, we change it around (that's my personal experience at least).

 

In Brasil there was a man that kidnapped old lady (like 70-80 year old), drove her to an isolated field and told her to take off her clothes. Once she did, he told her to put them back on. Told her that he just wanted to see what his wife would look like when she got old.....

 

My point is this. You = sex. Not love or romance, just sex. I went out with a girl last year twice, before meeting my GF. At the time I had never kissed a girl before, and was just curious about all this stuff. So I just went with it out of curiosity. She was a nice girl, sexy, fun, etc. But I had no true deep feelings for her. I did treat her nice, have interesting conversations with her, even talked about some emotional personal stuff with her, but I did not want a relationship with her. For me, she was a friend that I could get sex from (I never did, but could have, I chose not to). I felt bad about it, because of personal beliefs, called her, and told her I couldn't go on with it, and cut all contact. I still feel bad about it, because she had feelings for me, I was just using her to satisfy my curiosity. Sucks that she will be the first girl I ever kissed... could've waited and made it more significant, but oh well.

 

I think the way I viewed her, is similar to how he views you. It is about sex, curiosity, sexual experimentation, familiarity... etc. Maybe he feels guilty about it, and that would explain the coldness, and running away after the encounter, he might be trying to block his guilt by not thinking about it, and by distancing himself from you. If he acknowledges you as someone that has feelings, then he will have to deal with the fact that he is using you, and if this is out of character for him, he might not want to acknowledge that. I had to completely block that girl from my life, because I felt bad about it, not because I didn't care about her as a person, but because knowing that I used her made me feel like someone that I am not.

 

What to do? Depends... He may or may not be willing to talk about how he feels. If he is blocking it, he may not want to touch on it, and just view it like a sexual release (like porn+masturbation), without making him feel guilty about using you. Should you have sex with him, that is up to you, but I think on an emotional level, it will be harmful to both of you. He will have more guilt to get over (if what I think is correct), and you will feel more used than you already are.

[truman2017]

I have been reading this thread, have a penis and have had similar encounters, some of which I am ashamed of my behavior....so what would you like a man to comment on about your situation?

[Firiel]

This tangentially reminds me of a moment that happened to me a few years ago. I knew this jerk of a guy-- dated, abused, and cheated on my friend. Broke her down emotionally. Did the same thing to other girls and then laughed about it with his friends. A real jerk. I found myself wondering why anyone would want to be friends with this guy even... how anyone could associate with someone that was so cold and malicious. Then one day during class, we were all laughing at a joke, and we somehow made eye contact. And I saw something real there, something not faked, and I realized that, of course, he had a side that was genuine. He just didn't allow women to see it, likely.

 

Perhaps a better example is something similar. I worked with a guy once who had a, shall we say, reputation with the ladies. He made out with co-workers randomly and then either ignored them or made fun of them for it later. I heard enough of these stories to know he was no good romantically. But when we would open up the pool together in the mornings and it was just the two of us for a couple of hours, we'd have great conversations. We'd talk about childhood, he told me about girls that he dated (that he had really liked); I mean, there was this level of respect there that was decidedly missing in his romantic interactions/flings with women.

 

I think it sounds like the guy you encountered has a lot in common with these guys, and I think a lot of it boils down to respect and double-standards. I don't think Guy 1 respected women at all, romantic or not. Your friend reminds me of Guy 2. He clearly can have a real relationship with a woman, but there seems to be this disconnect between the relationships of friend or lover and the relationship of casual sex/sexual conquest. I wonder if it boils down to the common double-standard that many men hold that THEY can have casual sex, but if a woman does, it's dirty and directly causes a loss of respect. So he was especially horny one night, and yadda yadda yadda-- you crossed that line from friends chatting about life while watching an empty pool to co-workers making out and refusing to talk about it later.

 

And the thing is, even the way that sweet law student was treated... you don't want to be chosen like THAT by a guy like THIS. I know that you would want to be chosen like THAT by a guy that's willing to treat everyone with respect and not one that holds those types of double-standards about women or would throw away a friendship for not just casual but downright cold sex. When you are with someone long enough, no matter how special you are to them, you end up seeing them (at times) at their worst, at their meanest, and at their cruelest. Of course this guy could mature-- it's not unlikely, based on what you've said about him. But as he is NOW, his worst is pretty bad, even if what you saw in the bedroom was his worst.

[truman2017]

Claire was 47-Truman (ME) was 30. We worked together. Socially we might get together in groups at work celebrations, just talk a bit casually. Eventually she started to unload a bit about her divorce and failure to find a man as she rebounded. It sounded to me she just didn't think her husband or any of the men she was dating was really what she wanted. Claire shared her failed love life with maybe 4 other co workers, at least one of them was a 50ish year old man. We worked together for about a year when on a Friday night Claire called me at home, and she was a bit tipsy from drinking....as we talked she invited me to visit her that evening.....i was a bit depressed about another woman I wanted to marry but we couldn't seem to establish a committed relationship....so I went to Claire's house, we sat on the couch and shared a drink, her robe was a bit open and I could see most of what I wanted....her body was so firm, she worked out regularly, and I asked her if could open her robe, i did and moments later we did it on the couch and I stayed the night but left really early when she got a phone call from her college age son.

On Monday she apologized to me, told me what we did was "evil" and couldn't happen again, yet she continued to call me, I never called her, we drank together out one other time when asked me once during dinner if we were going to "f*ck tonight" (that is what she called it), but nothing ever happened. Eventually I got a new job and she moved out of town, but I got a call about once a year for about 8 years and she told me how she had loved me but what we did was evil

[tiredofvampires]

I'm going to try to do justice to the continuing wonderful posts here, and a few that were earlier in the thread. Thank you, Truman, for the shot of testosterone in the thread!

 

As a little update...and to address some of the feedback (particularly some of the more critical stuff) I'm getting:

 

The countdown of days is in full swing (my official move-out day is Nov. 6, though my new place will be available tomorrow, Nov. 1) -- and to boot, I've gotten my period, so a biological deterrent has arrived (serendipity?). So if he wanted to pursue me now, I currently have a good out.

 

The question being, am I relieved now with this out? Really yes and no, which is the focus of this post.

 

With each passing day, as nothing noteworthy has happened, with an undertone of avoidance, I sense this is dying its natural death. I hate this "elephant-in-the-room" feeling, which is why I wanted to say something. With all the input here, I'm holding my tongue. But it feels as though somehow he's "winning" -- as though I'm just copycatting his inability to communicate properly. I hate people who sweep things under the rug, and I feel I'm acquiescing to that somehow. Is that misguided??

 

 

This is going to be hard, because even without the sexual foray factored in, I'd be attached somewhat to him. I've lived alone for 13 years in my own place, and now, having someone "to come home to", to share a bit of the day, to have a sense of shared domesticity even in silence, has illustrated to me what I've been missing, even though we are not romantic partners and our schedules are crossed. I don't know if he cares at all about me (my guess is he thinks I'm a nice person, but that =/= care), but I do care about him and the various concerns he's expressed over time.

 

I would like to say something about my emotional motivations with this. It's hard to comprehend, I think, without having had health troubles.

 

In some ways, I see this as a rather different scenario than a lot of threads like it -- where a woman comes here asking about a selfish, non-committal sexual partner/player. The big difference is this: that in the elapsing years since my last relationship, but really all of the years I've had medical issues (which has been all my adult life), I've come to view myself as someone who would let my partner down in the sexual department. It's not for lack of libido on my part; nor enthusiasm, nor adventuresome spirit. I'm very playful and giving in general, and the bedroom is certainly a great place for me to express those sides of myself. The problem is, I'm physically fragile. I easily tire, fatigue, start hurting, have to alter or limit things. My pain also affects my lady bits, so some awareness and care has to be part of my partner's mindset. I've had to stop boyfriends before because I was hurting somewhere. And this puts me in the disadvantageous position of fearing that I'm "not enough" for a guy. I mean, this is decidedly UNSEXY, which is why they don't have sex scenes like this in Hollywood, lol. This is despite the fact that I've had long-term partners who were satisfied (though one or two burnt me to cinders on this, in my 20's, leaving scars). You'd think that would convince me...but as I've said, my health has slid in the last 2-3 years, and I've reached new lows of insecurity with this, especially being out of the loop for 5 years.

 

The fact of the matter is that relationships DO end as a result of health limitations. I've heard of it, I've seen it up close and personal. So the problems I face fearing I can "keep a guy", sexually, are REAL. This dimension does not exist for a lot of women who post about these sexually/emotionally compromising affairs.

 

So in a way, having a fling with someone as "hot" as this guy goes farther than just the massive ego-boost of someone so youthful fancying me that much. And it's not the prototypical "hoping to generate an emotional connection that doesn't exist and can't". For me, there is a very distinct need to feel that I can satisfy even the most sexually-driven guy, and feel competent as a full lover. So in a way, this guy -- and the raw, animalistic sex I knew he'd be dishing out -- would be the litmus test. Crazy? Maybe. But after 5 years of practically forgetting what sex even feels like, and participating in the world as a sexual being...you could say this felt like a timely "experiment" of sorts. Like a therapeutic gift, in a way. To see that I could be functional and normal. Pleasure would be icing on the cake -- thick icing, ha, but icing. The most important thing is that I wanted to stop this wanting to run for the hills in fear anytime someone hits on me, thinking, "I can't do this." (lol, I have to laugh a bit for saying "therapeutic", because I'm aware that could apply to anyone wanting to get laid for whatever reason they're feeling crummy.)

 

I wanted to have a living, breathing experience of being able to carry it all off, going into the future. I wouldn't have expressly gone looking for it (thus, my celibacy), but if it was offered up on a plate, as the epitome of contrast to me, masculinity and strength?? I'd have to kill myself for not saying, "hell yeah!"

 

So I know that's really a strange perspective, a pretty atypical twist on this theme of casual sex and being unfulfilled. It was unfulfilling for all the standard reasons this would be sexually unfulfilling for all the women weighing in on this thread and forum. Because of all the things he didn't do to make me feel good in a basic sense, and the boorishness.

 

But for me, there's this lingering layer of unfulfillment that I haven't had the "therapeutic" completion of this, because we didn't go all the way.

 

I was also spurred on by a couple of healthcare practitioners close to me, one being my main doctor (male) who said to me after the first episode, "Wow, cool! Right on, you gotta sometimes live a little, and go with the flow of life happening. I know you, and it's about time you had something that feels like a little normalcy." So I got more than one thumbs-up to stop taking myself so seriously, to take a few calculated risks with life, and let myself enjoy and explore something that was beckoning.

 

And the truth is, I keep saying I'm holding out for Mr. Right...but what if he doesn't show up? Then, I get old and dried out, and I'm a few adventures and experiences of love (or lack of it, haha) and life less. I'm not going to live forever, it could be downhill from here, and then what good would "saving" myself and missing something potentially enlivening do?

 

So this made me feel pretty in control of the situation (as opposed to reckless), and it felt incredibly refreshing and like shackles were coming off of me. Even when I broached my fears about the health risks, they didn't change their stance. My therapist added to the feedback, "You're trying everything in the book to try to get me to condemn what you did, but I won't. [this was after the first episode]."

 

All I'm saying here is that I feel I have/had extenuating circumstances that drove me to want this, in addition to what drives other women to sleep with someone with no future...and that not consummating it leaves me feeling that I didn't get closure about this. Which then translates into a bit of susceptibility to something happening before I vacate the place, even as remote as that seems. I better not screw this up, with all the resolve and better judgment.

 

This is why I've always been able to relate to the angst-driven male virgins of this board. It's not the same thing, but it's a kindred feeling. It's like, I need to at least know that I'm sexually part of this world and have known what others do.

 

I'm not sure how to reconcile this bit.

 

The fact that it was devoid of any human warmth just poured gasoline on the fire.

 

And then the fact that the same person is capable of warmth with others (but I don't warrant it), is a match tossed in.

[tiredofvampires]

How do my posts get so long, when I "just" wanted to highlight one thing? Ha...wow...

[penelope13]

You know, if you want to experience raw animalisitc unattached sex, I also say: go for it. However, not with this guy. He just seems so selfish and disrespectful that I doubt even 'going to the end' with him would be the experience you are hoping for. That doesn't take away from your friendship with him and your living experience with him, but sometimes people's bedroom behavior doesn't reflect the rest of their lives. Some people compartmentalize and share different aspects of their personality with different people. this seems incomprehensible to people who are not like that, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible for others.

[tiredofvampires]

You know, if you want to experience raw animalisitc unattached sex, I also say: go for it. However, not with this guy. He just seems so selfish and disrespectful that I doubt even 'going to the end' with him would be the experience you are hoping for. That doesn't take away from your friendship with him and your living experience with him, but sometimes people's bedroom behavior doesn't reflect the rest of their lives. Some people compartmentalize and share different aspects of their personality with different people. this seems incomprehensible to people who are not like that, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible for others.

 

Thanks for that, Penelope. You and a few others -- Firiel, itsallgrand, pinkelephant, and a few others, forgive me for not recalling each one -- have made this clarifying distinction between having casual sex that's mutually beneficial and more equal, vs. something this imbalanced and out-and-out DISRESPECTFUL. In the words of IAG, "this was a WORST CASE SCENARIO." So, point taken. I think this helps me more than anything to separate what my conceptual desire is vs. what THIS particular guy is bringing to the table. And that's feeling helpful to tease out, to get some peace with walking away from this.

 

And yes, I do find it incomprehensible that people compartmentalize like that. Firiel made some great points about that, as well. I guess I see someone who disrespects someone in ANY context, however you want to compartmentalize that, as having a disrespecting character. So I'm not sure that's an ability so much as a disablity.

 

I used to see casual sex as tantamount to disrespect. Mutual disrespect. Which was kind of partly confusing this picture for me. Like, well, if I want to sleep with someone under these circumstances (and someone this sought-after), expect to be disrespected to some extent -- that extent being the NATURE of such fly-by-night sex.. I'm hearing from what you're all saying is that this is a false equation.

 

I still feel there's an element of cheapness to it ("casual sex") that I probably won't ever see past, and I think goes with the territory. Kind of like McD's compared to a fine restaurant. The less you know/care about the person you're with, the cheaper (and the more "non-nourishing") -- I think that's my measuring stick. I'm the world's biggest romantic in that if someone fully has my heart, I won't even consider sleeping with someone else, because I have a vision -- no matter how long it might take, or how far away they are (which is one reason I have a hard time getting into his head about his "lady friend" and how that relates to his escapades.)

 

But over the years, I've seen that there's a lot of different shades to casual sex. It seems this thread is bearing this out in vivid color: that you can't just lump it all together.

 

This relates to a lot of your points, CAD -- especially this one:

 

While he may have not behaved so wonderfully, I think you also need to take responsibility for your own role in this. You were actually lucky that you saw him shower affection on another lady because your eyes were completely open to the fact that his heart was engaged. So knowing this, you still went in there offering yourself to him..there was no way you were going to get any kind of affection from him when it was clear his heart was elsewhere...with someone closer to his own age. You need to be realistic about this...you in your forties, he in his twenties...it was not very likely that this was going to be anything other than getting his sexual needs met.

 

I don't think I've at any point shirked some responsibility for this, or my role. I made it clear in my OP that I was not expecting to fulfill loneliness, to "scratch an itch" because I can't stand to continue to be single (if I could handle it for 5 years, I could handle another 5), or for him to want more from me than a sexual encounter. Neither I nor you have any idea what his feelings for this woman are, or more relevantly, how those feelings relate to their relationship. He has professed his love for her, but I also see that they are not together (at least if I'm taking him at his word.) And why is that? The reasons could be anything at all. Maybe he loves her, but for varying reasons, they feel their future together is at best questionable, at worst ill-fated, over issues that I can't possibly guess. Maybe he needs to sow his wild oats and is banking on her being there when it's over; but how does that pre-empt being a decent or even good lover (i.e., more than just "time to stick it in") to his "conquests"?

 

I've been in situations where I was between relationships and, even if I did have a love interest, I may have thought it very unlikely to come to fruition; and in the meantime, someone I had some sexual chemistry with and I became sexual. I don't know if you'd call this "casual sex", but it was "sex with no intent to turn into a relationship". Or if it had the potential of it going there, it was still not the emotional/heart-driven sex I've had when I'm in love and declaring a relationship exclusive. For instance, the last guy I had sexual encounters with -- the one 5 years ago -- was not long out of my last LTR (the one I came to ENA over.) He and I met on a dating site and liked eachother enough to "go out" but I wouldn't even call it "dating", because we were such an unlikely unit as a serious future plan went, it was just for the enjoyment of the companionship. There were a number of things with him that didn't mesh with me, but I certainly did like and respect him, and vice versa. So being in bedroom situations with him was an extension of that. We were not in a rush to establish something, we were both acting like freespirits...and so being horny and having eachother to be sexual with just happened. There were no sexual casualties as a result of this -- no one being butthurt afterwards, no one feeling gyped. But he was very attentive and demonstrative with me, physically. He kissed my breasts, told me they were nice. He touched my body sensually, my arms, my thighs; he kissed me on the neck (which always gets me). This doesn't mean we were on a relationship track or that I was emotionally attached to that occurring. But I didn't feel neglected and dissed, as though I was no longer ToV, but a blank, erased spot with a hole. By the time we became physical, I knew him about as long (short) as the guy this thread is about.

 

And I do think that my expecting him not to be attentive to my body, to care if I was feeling at all good, to honor my feeling unsafe without a condom doesn't have anything to do with our age disparity, so I'm not sure how you're conflating the two. You're saying I need to be realistic about this, that because I'm in my 40's and he's in his 20's, I should just accept that he would want to get his sexual needs met. Do you think the other women he has played who are his own age just to get laid (and I sense I'm the first older woman he's been with), who he does not love, he treated differently, because they were younger?

 

I was obviously going in with a certain agenda, and of getting my needs met (some of them, as I've described above, fairly uncommon). But those needs overlapped with seeing him feel good. And so I don't think those are mutually exclusive.