How to Deal with a Curve Ball I NEVER Saw Coming (death by puns)

[lavenderdove]

One other truism that applies here: No everyone is going to be as smart as you are.

 

If you are very intelligent (and you are) your brain runs like a Ferrari considering all the possibilities, implications, meanings, possible intents etc. Whereas a less intelligent person's brain putters along more like a VW bug. Once of the hallmarks of intelligence IS thinking things thru all the time, considering options, consquences, implications etc. A less intelligent person may operate from the perspective of 'if it feels good, do it,' followed by 'uh oh, now what, how do i handle this, i don't know, i feel bad, better run now.'

 

the fact that he thinks his boring but soon to be lawyer GF was the best thing on the planet tells you something... she is boring enough not to threaten him or make him feel bad about himself, yet she is going to be a lawyer which he may really respect if he knows he's not smart enough to do that.' So regardless of her looks/personality, she may be perfect for him, whereas someone with a Ferrari brain may overwhelm him or intimidate him.

 

What motivates people (and people of varying intelligence levels and histories) can be VERY different. In my own life, I had a long and exciting and complicated romance with a man who i really admired and saw as my superior in terms of some things, but he really was my inferior in terms of 'emotional intelligence'. We were a fabulous match intellectually, in terms of humor, wit, interests, sexual compatability etc. But there was one thing i totally missed when it came to understanding him. He had grown up very poor and embarassed by poverty and had made a LOT of himself and his life, but becoming wealthy and living that lifestyle became VERY important to him, and I personally have always felt/known that money can make you comfortable but cannot provide deep satisfaction in itself (at least for me).

 

In the end, we were separated by distance for a while due to work commitments, and during that time, he met a very wealthy woman who went after him, and he ended up marrying her because the money was so hynotic/attractive to him and instantly solved what he thought would be all of life's 'important' problems.. He desperately wanted to keep me in his life any way he could, because he did love me, and realized at some point that he was in a golden prison and trapped because this strong desire to be wealthy because it held such a strong emotional pull due to his background, and the recognition that he may now have this incredible financial life, but in the process lost me which was something he valued so much (and thought he could find a way to work around... long story, not relevant here).

 

So as much as you can think thru things, you have to always remember that everyone is so different in terms of their motivations and innermost desires, and you can't always 'figure them out' in a way that makes them work out with yourself. You are goin to bring your own perspective and history with you and interpret his behavior based on your own perceptions. Something that is VERY meaningful and important to one person may mean something entirely different to someone else. Often at the time something is happening, the only thing that can REALLY explain what happened is hindsight and things playing out over time.

 

So i don't think you should play this out as if he is a man that done you wrong... or expect him to take it seriously or take a romance with you seriously when he was just a young man who liked you who didn't think... you may or may not want to keep him as a friend depending on how upset this has made you...

[becomingkate]

Like the first time, he didn't lift a finger to touch my body, to kiss me anywhere, to caress me. And when I tried to kiss him, he'd just push my head down south again. He didn't at any point seem to want eye contact with me, or to even look at my body, but just lay there with his eyes half shut, in a beer-induced, apathetic stupor.

 

I didn't read the entire thread, but just wanted to say that pushing your head down is a MAJOR DEAL BREAKER. I would walk away and not waste another minute on him.

[tiredofvampires]

I didn't read the entire thread, but just wanted to say that pushing your head down is a MAJOR DEAL BREAKER. I would walk away and not waste another minute on him.

 

I know that can be a bad sign. And it didn't feel good with HIM with the vibe (of his not wanting me to do anything but), but on the other hand, sometimes during sex, wordless guiding can just be a signal from a partner of what you're wanting. So I wasn't sure how to interpret that or whether I should feel strongly about it. In the heat of passion, I'd enjoy that with someone, so it was a bit conflicting.

[tiredofvampires]

Okay, so there are a bunch of things I'm wanting to respond to. And man, I haven't even finished with the older posts that have meant so much to me during this thread.

 

Lavenderdove, those were monumentally insightful and keen posts, thank you.

 

Even if I have to finish these thoughts off after my move, I will for sure.

 

This weekend is going to be a big push to get moved. My aim was to be out by tomorrow (Sunday). I'm not sure what date he has to be out by, but I have to be out of here by Tuesday, and I very much want to be out before he is. I don't want the empty room without the tv and loveseat and the feeling of being here one second past his departure. Let him come home to the empty space.

 

Yesterday, I spent a good bit of time cleaning. More is to come today, and tomorrow to finish off. I'm also moving stuff into my new place. I thought, I'll be ahead of the curve and say goodbye first.

 

So I woke up this morning and I can see he is moving his furniture out. YIKES.

 

What's really bothering me is how to end this. A lot of people have said in this thread that I should just ignore him, be cordial but don't talk to him about the incident, don't give him a note, just hold my head high and keep walking.

 

Those were the opinions of the women on the thread (and all of them, I esteem highly).

 

Then there were a few gentlemen who proposed the idea that by not saying anything, I'm letting him get away with something, not speaking up for myself, things of that nature. Letting it slide just the way he's used to it happening.

 

I'm very, very conflicted now. Because on one hand, I feel, "what's the use of trying to communicate anything to him?" I'm under no delusion that I'll 'fix' anything about him, and I'm not here to be his epiphany. Even more importantly, I have been playing the "I'm not fazed" card pretty well, in that I have not ONCE, in passing, stopped him to give him a piece of my mind, to diplomatically express anything I've been thinking or feeling, etc. My demeanor has been light, friendly, and casual, if anything. The LAST thing I'd want to convey is that I'm hurting and bruised over this, or pining away (and I'm not pining so much as ruminating).

 

What I want him to know is that I was not stupid enough to think it would have ended up being romantic for me, that I did not expect more from this, but I did imagine he might have been more attentive while during the events. Somehow, I need him to know that:

 

a. I didn't "chicken out" (to put it in Truman's words -- EEEEK!! why does that make me feel SO bad! I don't want to be seen as too timid, too shy, a 'fraidy cat, not fun, etc. etc. THIS BLOWS) -- we didn't have CONDOMS, for crying out loud

 

b. If we had had condoms, we could have had a "good time" (at least a semblance of it), I just didn't think it was going to go that way, so I was not presuming it was more than a ONE-night incident

 

c. I IN NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM AM DELUDED ENOUGH THAT I'D TRY TO MAKE SOMETHING MORE OF IT THAN IT WAS (and I'm not even sure he why he would think that, given I have not sought him out, even after the episodes)

 

When we were talking on the sofa right before the second episode, when we were talking about the condoms and how we didn't have them, I said, "You say someday you want to marry someone. Don't you want to be healthy?" I thought that implied I had no intentions of futurity. That I have my head screwed on straight. Which I do, at least in that department.

 

In our contacts between those episodes and now, I've just kept my mouth shut but been erring on the friendly side, not the "can't you read in my face that this is bugging me" side.

 

And I just want to know if it looks LIKE I'M WALKING AWAY WITHOUT ASSERTING MYSELF TO SAY ANYTHING. I mean, it feels so, so weak. It really does feel like the moment may have passed. But I'm not someone who is good at bottling everything up because someone else wants me to dance around them.

 

I think part of this problem is that in our talks, as I mentioned before, he has said he loves being a guy because "he doesn't like talking about everything." He said, "that's the age-old difference between men and women, isn't it? Wanting to talk about things."

 

I think if there were some last words I'd want to impart here, they wouldn't be ones of scolding or recrimination, but gentle teaching/admonition about life in general: that COMMUNICATION is not a male or female thing, once people are grown up. Women are socialized and biologically wired to be more verbal. But in the end, men have to learn these skills, too. And a relationship without communication -- any relationship, of any kind -- has nothing. If you don't have communication, you have N O T H I N G.

 

I'd like to express that in a way that isn't preachy, and isn't presumptuous, but that would imply a lot of things, including our interlude.

 

I'm not sure how much or if I should say anything about the incidents themselves, but I really feel like it should have ended with my feeling after the first night, which was, "yeah, this young stud loved it!" Instead now, it's...I didn't go the whole way and leave him with that WOW. And the afterburn of tension that it probably wasn't all that for me, because I'm just not wild or spontaneous or whatever enough - -and on top of it, I'm too passive to tell him off about it being kind of shoddy.

 

The last thing I said to him when he left the 2nd time was, "I don't know how old you think I am, but I could still bear children." He said "Yeah, I know." So, Lavenderdove, that's a good illustration of what you're talking about. NOT THINKING ABOUT CONSEQUENCES (wth, he's not in HS anymore, though!). I mean, what if I got pregnant and decided to keep the baby? How would a lifetime of child support to a woman twice his age affect his life?

 

Bottom line: I thought a note would be a good "compromise" way of getting to communicate these things without ending on a big confrontational note, but it would at least show I'm not SCARED to say anything. People have said here that that would give him too much power, to even go through that kind of exercise. AND I SEE BOTH SIDES. It could go either way.

 

On the other hand, as I hear him moving all this furniture out, I'm having a bad moment here.

 

I JUST DON'T WANT TO LOOK LIKE THE WEAK PERSON I AM NOT, AND FADE INTO MUSH BECAUSE THIS IS HIS WAY OF DEALING.

 

I could always just leave without saying anything, knowing that I know in my heart I have nothing to be ashamed of, and this is all really on him. This is his loss, right? Even though I don't feel used -- I don't want to be walking away as if intimidated and scared to say you're an okay guy, and you'd be an even better than okay guy if you wanted to learn to communicate -- but that kind of SUCKED, dude. But RedDress made the great point that I run the risk of looking like "a woman scorned", and THAT I will want to avoid at all costs, if or however I say anything.

 

I think I can do that, it's just a question of emphasis, and whether it is worth it at all.

 

I'm just not someone who keeps their mouth shut and accepts being trod upon, and this is the last chance to say, do, write, or express anything. It's like speak now or forever hold your peace.

 

This is so stressful for someone who LIVES to get important things expressed (but always with tact and deftly), so that it hits where it will matter.

 

 

Ohhh, what should I do?

 

I'm typing this in a bit of a hurry, so forgive the scatteredness.

 

I just know after this, it's going to be another long drought. I'm going to miss feeling a bit more alive. My life is pretty gummed up with unpleasant, very heavy things right now. Visit to Planet Hedonistic Fly-By-The-Seat-of-Your-Pants And Live Forever, goodbye.

[tiredofvampires]

IfI was into the woman I would think "she is saving herself for a special person, and I could be that person if I treat her right"....If I wasn't interested in persuing the lady i might just think "she chickened out, I am not going to bother to try to recapture a moment that may never happen.".......can't help thinking about Thanksgiving and all the yummy side dishes Mom will serve lol

 

Owie. Ow. Ow, ow, ow, ow. lol

 

=/= Fearless Cougar. lol

[tiredofvampires]

See, this is what I'm talking about. So you would not say that all the advice to just WALK AWAY from him puts me in a more empowered position?

 

I don't know if it's too late, simply because momentum has been lost, to "stand up for myself." He's moving furniture out. It feels lame.

 

And then there is all the advice on the other side that that adds some fuel to the fire. If I'm trying to send the message that I am not cowed and snivelingly butthurt about this, it's a bit "the lady doth protest too much, methinks" kind of thing to broach anything.

 

So that dilemma and all that I presented above about it stands.

 

I agree with you and a couple of other posters (Silverbirch) who have said my emphasis may be focused wrongly on how he's seeing me. In the end...this is about what I think of myself. I really do feel that in my bones.

 

But part of how I feel about myself is that I am able to hold my own. That's something very important to me, critical in fact. And I don't know how best to manifest that here.

[tiredofvampires]

But I'm not someone who is good at bottling everything up because someone else wants me to dance around them.

 

Actually, revise that.

 

I'm pretty good at that, as a knee-jerk. But my entire life has revolved around breaking with that kind of weakness and fear of feeling punished for speaking my mind.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

The time to have called him out on his behaviour was the first time you had a sexual encounter and he treated you like a piece of meat. The fact that you went back for more gives him the impression that you were perfectly fine the way he treated you. Then you could have said something the second time but you didn't so that moment was lost. Even after the second time where he treated you badly, you went out to get condoms in the expectation of a third time. So why call him out on his behaviour at this late stage. I agree with Reddress that if you do it now it will look like the woman scorned.

 

but gentle teaching/admonition about life in general: that COMMUNICATION is not a male or female thing, once people are grown up.

That is going to sound like you are now taking the stance of older woman teaching younger man...almost like you are hoping to put the power back into your hands from his.

 

The thing is you both did what you did and there is no changing it. The most effective time to have called him out on his behaviour without making it look like you are a woman scorned, was at the time he was being disrespectful.

 

Instead of focusing on his behaviour which was wrong..I think it would be more beneficial for you to focus on why you chose to continue, why you chose this route, what have you learned from it, how will you do things differently in the future. You aren't going to teach this guy anything as he is generally reckless and nonchalant about other aspects of his life as well. Your focus should be on you and healing from this...because you are indeed very hurt from what happened.

[tiredofvampires]

think it would be more beneficial for you to focus on why you chose to continue, why you chose this route, what have you learned from it, how will you do things differently in the future. You aren't going to teach this guy anything as he is generally reckless and nonchalant about other aspects of his life as well. Your focus should be on you and healing from this...because you are indeed very hurt from what happened.

 

I don't see how the future and doing things differently relates, because this is never going to happen again. It is never going to happen again because it was a fluke.

 

And I just need to know how to deal with a face-to-face with him tomorrow.

 

Who knows, we may not intersect, but I doubt it. I expect we will be cleaning nearly side by side. And I'l be thinking, "say something, (me) for chrissake!!!!" I am NEVER good with goodbyes, but this takes the cake.

 

We have really been through a lot together while here, and I can't believe it's come down to this. A knowing glance and invisible duct tape around my mouth, instead of a warm goodbye.

 

@Silverbirch: Ha, I'm from the same "farmyard" as you are. And I've read the same books as you (Germaine Greer), etc. etc. I honestly find this whole thing a paradox. Because I don't find what I did inherently disrespectful to myself. I don't feel that having sexwithnofuture (aka, "casual sex", as others call it) devalues me. It may devalue SEX somewhat, yes (and there are degrees of that -- this would be the 3rd degree; or 1st degree, depends on whether you're talking about burns or crimes). But it does not devalue ME, as a woman or human being. As I said in my earlier posts, I actually do not know how much longer I have to live (and that's true for anyone, of course; but lately, I've felt my mortality heavily weighing upon me.) I never would have thought that in the thick of that, I'd be given a free pass to the carnival. I'm not yet so grim as to be signing up for the Make A Wish Foundation, ha...but nor do I feel particularly like life would have been enhanced by my saying no to this experience of physical intimacy with someone who RADIATES ENERGY, VITALITY, AND FREEDOM. It's like a contact high of potent medicine.

 

What has sullied it for me (one of the things) is that even if I do not feel I was disrespecting myself...his framing it in a way that would compromise me in his eyes casts me in a light that I BURN to reject -- yet that has not been made apparent. And that's what's missing here, in my need for resolution. I have not been able to reject that in a way that makes it clear to him that I reject it. I was so flummoxed, filled with conflicting desires (to enjoy what it was while it was there, yet to set him straight; to "live a little", as some very trusted healthcare providers endorsed this, yet to beware of untowered aftermaths; all of these being at odds) that the dynamic degenerated to his tune.

 

So walking away from this without rejecting the parts I wish to reject to his face, I feel incomplete.

[tiredofvampires]

Oh, and yes -- I agree, Silverbirch, that going up to my new place is for wiping the slate clean.

 

I'm not good at letting go. This is even though no one in my life would ever call me clingy.

 

Tomorrow, this will all be so yesterday.

 

This just underscores to me that the casualties of my physical challenges -- the way it's isolated me socially in the last couple of years (not just because it's hard to go out when you're not feeling well, but because when I'm around people, I have to playact the entire time to be good company, which is an enormous effort), the way it's plagued me as a woman, the way it's shoved all my desires to couple underground -- are even worse than I thought. (I can't believe a few years ago, I was putting myself out on dating sites, feeling ready for love.) It's easy to handle when not provoked. When I shut the world out. This was a case of the world coming to me. And I didn't want it to go away.

 

Tough thing is, there's little I can do about any of it. I'm maximally working on improving my situation, and fighting some intense fires. But sometimes I feel it's all taking me down.

 

Might as well go down...going down. lol

[tiredofvampires]

as for the title of the thread--as an old baseball player I remember a curve ball is a pitch you see coming but are fooled by the pitch, so you swing and miss. The pitch you neversee coming is the fast ball the sails and hits you in the head.....

 

Ah, yes. Note to self: always do your homework! Especially with sports analogies! Thanks for setting me straight.

 

I sort of feel it's a combination of both, though. I was fooled by the pitch, and I swung. But I didn't see it coming.

 

A fast ball.

 

Ha. Nope.

[Ellie2006]

TOV, another vote for not saying anything ... for all the reasons that have been given above.

 

And I don't think you're letting this guy off the hook by not saying anything at all.

Even if you do address it in some form, it sounds like what you say won't really stick with this guy, so why bother?

 

If you say it's for your peace of mind (and not for his benefit at all), then what different results would you reap from you talking to him VS you talking to a wall, you writing on this thread, etc. etc.?? From where I'm standing, I think you'd get exactly the same results.

 

Take whatever you have received from this encounter, be it life lessons, intense pleasure, deep insights, etc. etc. and move on and away, and just leave him to take whatever he may.

 

Just a thought ...

[Crazyaboutdogs]

I don't see how the future and doing things differently relates, because this is never going to happen again. It is never going to happen again because it was a fluke.

 

This is exactly what I am getting at...you are not taking responsibility for your own part in all of this..it was not a fluke..you made conscious decisions each and every time you got together with him...and this is not the first time you have run into a "fluke"...wasn't it a fluke when the well-known musician chose you that night? So that is the second fluke that happened...with the musician case he was well-versed in the art of making sure the woman was pleased so you left the situation not feeling as used, although you tried to call him back.

 

I know this counters what you want to hear and all the congratulations that others have given you about proving to yourself that you are still a sexual being..but I am not going to sugar coat this...you are unhappy about what happened and are trying to turn this around as completely this other guy's fault who needs a lesson in life..but you are not seeing your own actions. You are putting this down to a fluke rather than as your own conscious decisions. Even with the musician guy you rationalized calling him back as he gave you his number and you were curious about it. If that was an isolated incident I might be inclined to agree..but now you are going through such angst and mental gyrations over this guy and overlooking all the conscious decisions you made to continue having sexual interactions with him despite his treatment of you...just trying to see all the things he did wrong without looking at yourself. If the situation does come up again in another circumstance, and you are feeling lonely and insecure about your sexuality, it will indeed happen again....and guys who want no strings attached sex are a dime a dozen so it is not unlikely that you will run into this again, and the next one may be more accommodating to your needs or maybe not.

[Silverbirch]

Hugs TOV, Firstly, I'm so glad we are from the same farmyard! LOL

 

I feel for you and think I can empathise with you on several things here. I too have had some serious health concerns (presently treatable but malignant cancer)which has made me aware of this feeling of "I don't want to miss out!" I wonder if that is what you feel too. I'm certain though that in some ways, this has enhanced my life. I'd rather have some forewarning to pack in as much as I can and try not to leave unfinished business, especially letting the people I love know that I love them, and being able to do thing things which are important for me, live the life I have always wanted.

 

Sorry if I'm seeming off-topic a bit but wonder how big a part this all is for you in relation to this guy. I'm in a relationship now and things seem to be going very well, but we were only together 4 months when the cancer was diagnosed and there were some BIG questions for me with regard to being a in a new relationship and having cancer - I didn't want him to feel obligated to be with me - even though I really wanted to be with him. I didn't want to be unfair to him but I didn't and don't want to miss out (on having a deep loving relationship with a person I really want to be with.) I am so glad he wants to be with me for the right reasons and so I'm going to hang with him. I'm ready for this right now.

 

I think you are too, and this guy has brought an awareness of that for you. I just have this feeling that for you, there is something you might want which is more than this guy can give and that you might want sex with at least some future! Though no judgements from me if want sex without a future of course.

 

I don't think you should go on Craigslist or anything like that - you just need to get out there and live a little more. See what happened when you just got out of your usual space for a bit. With this new home coming up, as with all of us, it can make our worlds a bit more interesting and bring new people and places to us, and you are ready for this.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

Excellent post. I agree. In the face of serious illness many people want to make the most of the time they have so they might choose to travel a lot or take up new hobbies etc. Given your reaction to what happened here, it seems to me that it is not really just sex you are after, it is connecting with someone on a more meaningful level....something which you thought you had with this guy given all the talks you had prior to the sexual interactions.

[tiredofvampires]

Ellie! I'm so glad to see you. Feels like spotting a lighthouse!

 

Your vote matters! ('tis the season, lol)...thank you, lady.

 

And I don't think you're letting this guy off the hook by not saying anything at all.

Even if you do address it in some form, it sounds like what you say won't really stick with this guy, so why bother?

 

I'm glad you think that, in the bold. But I'm still not sure why not? I don't know why it feels that way so much, but it does -- like it's like he's getting off without an ounce of having to face the uncomfortable music, and can just skate by.

 

[[An interesting irony considering when we were talking about the shenanigans here with the landlady, at one point I was in tears and he said (invoking his Christian beliefs), "It's for their hearts to grapple with. Who would you rather be -- you or them? You don't have to cry. They're not 'winning' [replying to my statement that by tearing my heart out, I felt they were 'winning']. They're going to have to live with this, and you won't. And if that doesn't ever bother them, well, God be with them." LOOOOOOOOOL]]

 

But ultimately, you're right, I think. Not only will it not stick, but I think in a way it emboldens that part of him that preys on vulnerability in the first place.

 

If you say it's for your peace of mind (and not for his benefit at all), then what different results would you reap from you talking to him VS you talking to a wall, you writing on this thread, etc. etc.?? From where I'm standing, I think you'd get exactly the same results.

 

Well, presumably, my peace of mind is directly related to having called him out -- again, not in a scornful way, but in a cool and controlled way. Which is different than processing it here.

 

And honestly...I know I sound quite flip-floppy about this...really, really looking deep into my motives as I was considering this tonight, and dreading tomorrow...there is a part of me that wants to give him the benefit of my age. He chose someone older and more mature to tango with -- so food for thought might be the best thing I can leave him with. And he may shrug it off now, but it may actually sink in and be one of those things that later percolates up, long after the seed has been planted. I do feel there is a pure intent about that, which is wholly distinct from any need for self-importance, or trying to gain some dignity back, or whatever.

 

The acid test I did in my head to figure out whether I truly meant it as that, or it was arising as a cover for some other, more self-interested motive, was that I asked myself, "What if he just laughed at it, or threw it away (I had written a couple of notes to try out what I would say), or it didn't register? What if he haughtily thought that you were still trying to matter to him, to be effectual, to garner some attention, to *redeem* yourself, etc.?" What if he either thought the crappiest thing or was as neutral as fruit-free beige jello about whatever you have to say?

 

The answer I got from within myself is: I wouldn't care. REALLY. I would think, "Oh well. I tried." The thought that it would be misinterpreted, or cast aside did not change anything.

 

But then what arose from that was the conclusion you're talking about here. Which is that there is really no point, then.

 

If I am no longer invested in this anymore, what he thinks of me, what he knows he's done, what he's aware of or not...then I also let go of my wish to even educate someone who is as much a student of life as I am. Life is always the best teacher. And it's pretty arrogant of me to imagine that I can hasten the process. It may be well-intentioned, but it's far more challenging for me to walk off knowing that I said nothing at all when I could have, to appease my sense of wanting something good to come out of a situation that's gone wrong.

 

I guess I need to disengage from the idea that anything he thinks -- especially about me -- matters anymore.

 

Let him think I'm a pointless waste of space and an overly-guarded cootchie, with an over-eager-to-please mouth attached above, with a problem locating a spine.

 

It's kind of like how I've worked through the issue of the landlady and her daughter. For a long time, I was rehearsing the notes I'd write, and leave with the keys. The things I'd say which could no longer affect me, as I'd be driving away. Again: I would not hurl insults at the last minute and curse them for driving me out in the most vile of ways -- I'd write some wake-up call types of things. And I do WRITE better than I speak.

 

Then I thought the truest victory would be not needing one. After that epiphany, I threw out all my mental drafts.

 

I think I need to do that with him, too.

 

I'm lying in an empty room now with a single lamp by my bed. Alone in this place that used to be our little cozy corner of the house we took refuge in through eachother's company, even just through indirect presence in the next room. His balcony is clear. His room is dark, so his bed is obviously gone and he's sleeping at the new place. It's so very hushed here. The shapes of his loveseat and tv stand have left their imprints in the carpet, now a barren square of space. No creaks in the floor anymore, no bathroom door opening and closing. All his Old Spice body wash and cologne traces are gone, and I just smell empty house.

 

If I can sleep off the last remnants of heaviness and melancholy this all makes me feel, by morning when he shows up I'll be as he is, and was, as I lay on his chest.

 

A stone with a heartbeat.

 

GOOD LUCK TO ME. I'll have to sleep off who I am.

[lavenderdove]

>>And I just want to know if it looks LIKE I'M WALKING AWAY WITHOUT ASSERTING MYSELF TO SAY ANYTHING.

 

Darling, he is just a mid-20s bodybuilding bartender boozing his way thru life at this point... He had a little fling with you and he's continuing on his lunkhead way! He didn't really 'do' anything to you or disrespect you in a big way, he's just a selfish 20 odd year old man-boy! And man-boys who don't have much maturity yet think mainly about drinking and sex and having fun.

 

By having an encounter with him, you just got sucked back into the life of a 20-something for a moment. Many 20ish young men are very bad at sex and don't understand women or even their anatomy very well, and live for the blow job and next excitement. Even if they're very attractive, they can be very BAD at sex because they cruise on their looks and exchange women in and out like tee-shirts. He figures he's 'done his job' when it comes to sex if he shows up looking good with his well toned body. THAT'S the pleasure he offers, chiseled abs, not any skilled or tender lovemaking.

 

Truthfully, the best lovers I have had have NOT been the best looking... they are men who love women and appreciate them and have devoted time and effort to developing the skills they need to please one. Many very young men think good sex is them showing up with an erect penis, fingering you a bit, then hopping on. And if they can get you to do it, they'd prefer a blow job to any of that so they try to get you to give them one any way they can!

 

I think most people on this thread are hitting too hard on the idea of 'disrespecting' you when frankly i suspect he was just pursuing his NORMAL way of doing things as an attractive and vain young man. And you didn't have vaginal sex because you didn't have a condom and you wouldn't do it without one (good for you), but I suspect if you DID have sex, he'd probably come in a couple minutes then be proud of himself. That is what lots of young men do because they haven't yet learned the finer art of pleasing a woman and may be shallow enough at that age to not care much about it.

 

So there is no need at all to 'assert yourself' because honestly there was no harm, no foul here. He was just having a little fun, and you took it too seriously to trigger all this worry and analysis.

 

I agree with your doctor that you should just live a little and have fun, and don't live so much inside your own head, but instead get out there and live in real life, meet people and find men to date who are more equal to you in intellect and interests and who are not still half fledged man-boys. A man-boy with an awesome sculpted body doesn't have to be a good lover or tender or romantic or anything else because his cash in trade is his looks. He may genuinely have feelings for that one GF from the past enough to cut thru his own selfishness/arrogance and relate to her, but obviously at this point in his life he is mostly trading on his looks and having a really good time of it too!

 

You have lost no dignity, you have had a two-night stand with a man-boy who was very attractive but it was what it was, a friends with benefits encounter between a young man and an older woman. I'm sure he had fun and appreciated it, but now it is awkward becasue he realizes that you may be taking this more seriously than it was and he has no interest in making it a permanent thing. And it sounds like some of the things you said to him verged on preaching to him (i.e., you want to get married some day don't you want to be healthy). Frankly that little lecture would be something his mother might say to him, which combined with your age may have instantly snapped him out of any romantic inclinations towards you. Nothing is a buzz kill for romance like images of having sexy times with your Mommy brought to mind.

 

And you yourself are confused... you alternate between talking about wanting to 'teach' him something, then switch to images of wanting to rest your head on his chest, so really, do you want to be his Mother and straighten him out, or his lover and enjoy his hard body? That confusion is obviously being felt by the both of you, so another sign to just let this go and not try to turn it into either a quest to restore you ego and respect (when he honestly did nothing that means you need to do that), or a quest to turn it into a high romance (which isn't going to happen because you indeed ARE old enough to be his mother and there are very very few men who would be comfortable for more than an encounter or two with as large an age gap as the two of you have).

 

So it was fun while it lasted, so see it as that, and a sign you are still sexual and need to get out more, so go have fun! This whole thing didn't 'say anything' other than you made a nice little man-boy friend when you lived in teh same apt., and are still attractive and sexual, and that means you need to get out more and find more appropriate outlets for those desires such that you don't take one encounter so seriously. You have your own place now, so the first thing you need to do after settling in is get out and meet some people and then invite a man who is a better match for you to dinner!

[itsallgrand]

^excellent post lavenderdove. Hit the nail on the head, methinks!

 

Lunkhead is perfect. lol. He's just doing his thing and there is no need to overthink it, I agree completely. !

[Crazyaboutdogs]

While I agree in certain respects with Lavender, I will say that it is not just twenty year olds who do this kind of thing...there are men of all ages who behave like that..plenty of divorced men in their 40's and 50's with the same mentality of having their own pleasure and not caring about the woman. Which is why I don't think it is a wise idea to just go out there scouting for yet another men to live out the sexual desires and fantasies with if you can't handle "hit and run" sex. I think this episode and the one with the musician makes it very clear that your expectations are higher than just sex and goodbye forever once the deed is done. Divorced, jaded, not so physically amazing men also go out trolling for sex and have a "hit and run" mentality. Whether it is from this twenty-something man or from a man twice his age...it is indeed disrespectful and they do know exactly what they are doing and don't care. Disrespect is the chance anyone takes when they choose casual sex...and there are plenty of posts on this forum from men who got hurt from women who just used them for "hit and run" sex. As the expression goes "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen". I also think it says a lot more than about her being a sexual being...it says that perhaps casual sex is more of a risk to her heart and soul than she thought it would be.

[lavenderdove]

^^

Actually, i wasn't suggesting more casual sex, but that she go out and start meeting men who are more her equals, interested in dating her rather than just body building, boozing and hit and run sex as this young man was. If she's not into casual sex, then she should pursue men who want relationships rather than casual encounters.

[penelope13]

This is something I will never understand: how can anyone consider an encounter where one person lies back enjoying and receiving, but not lifting a single finger to give the other person any kind of pleasure be considered a respectful exchange between 2 individuals?

 

This may be acceptable in a long term interaction, where it's a one-off thing, but with everybody knowing that the next encounter will be different, but for a first time? And then a second time? - No, doesn't spell respectful for me at all. There is no consideration, true respect given from the person who is only receiving pleasures (although I concede it may not be an intentional disrespecting considering it seems that it's culturally widely accepted here that 'giving head' without anything else is ok), nor does it spell respecting oneself if the giver is hoping for something else/more but not expressing and insisting for it, nor walking away from such a situation when the expectations and hopes are not being met.

[PaintWithLight]

You totally built this guy into something he wasn't. Take away the chiseled body and he is very ordinary...and single for many many reasons. Do not waste anymore time on this one. He is a taker.

[penelope13]

No offense taken. Though correction -- I didn't call her an "ice queen,"

 

Sorry, must have read that wrong.

 

I said she was the opposite of one. I can't see him having the hard, dirty sex he was offering me with her, and while there is a yawning cavern of difference between me and her in his life, I don't know why sex with me should have to be less respectful, even if a fleeting experience.

 

You are making a lot of assumptions here: relationships are complicated, the reasons why he is having one type of relationship with her, while he has a different kind with you are probably totally different sets of reasons. Most likely, for him it’s not “her versus you”. It seems to be one of the things you struggle with a lot to comprehend that some people have a very different thought process and motivation to do things than you yourself, although intellectually you know this. There is really no need whatsoever for you to compare yourself to her and feel any less than her in any aspect.

 

For instance, if I say, "please stop", it seems that whether you're in the heat of the moment with an SO or a casual fling, that should be respected. If you inadvertently hurt your partner, it shouldn't hinge on how long you've been sleeping with them to say, "oops, sorry. you okay?"

 

This seems a bit out of context (or I’m simply not getting the context). Yes most decent people will stop in any kind of situation if another person says ‘stop’ – but that is not a question if the person in question has any particular higher personal regard/respect for the other person. It’s a question of manners, decency. It seems to me you are throwing different concepts of respect all into a single pot and are trying to make assumptions and inferrences that if someone has a set of manners if that can be translated into if this person also has personalized respect for you and thus if this person ‘cares’ for you. I tried to explain in an earlier response my point of view on how people can (and do all the time) apply respect to certain aspects of another person without having to respect that person on a personal level that relates to the potential of friendship or relationships.

 

I also don't know how the same traits in me that he would love in her (emotional softness as I sensed it, sweetness, nurturing qualities) would bring disrespect for ME, if these are qualities he values. That doesn't compute.

 

Aren’t you simplifying here what attracts someone to one person versus another? Attraction is based on many, many things. While you may be attracted to one person with certain attributes, those same attributes may be shared also by people who you are not attracted to. You will not be attracted to ALL people with that particular trait.

 

Did he actually tell you that this was his main attribute he was screening for? Is it not entirely possible that the reason she has the meaning that she has based on a large combination of chemical attraction, shared history, where he was mentally and emotionally at the time he met her etc etc? He met you under different circumstances, he is at a different point in his life, you are in a different point in your life etc etc, thus while you think (you can’t even be sure of that) you are similar to her it doesn’t compute at all actually that therefore he has to have the same consideration for you as for her. This is really not a situation where you are all on a dating site and he picked her over you.

 

Furthermore, how do you know he disrespects you BECAUSE you have those qualities?

 

I'm not saying I want to be his gf, I'm saying it doesn't compute that if you have "Nice Girl" traits, in one case, that brings you love; in another case, that brings you callous treatment and disrespect. And because of my past, I have a hard time not internalizing that as a function of something unlovable about me.

 

As said before, things are not easy when it comes to defining what attracts people to each other. (This is meant as food for thought, nothing else) by defining yourself as a “nice girl” and by expecting that this in itself should be sufficient to merit others to be attracted to you is not only simplifying attraction, but it also seems to indicate a certain entitlement in that you ‘earned to be found attracted solely due to having adhered to a nice-girl persona’. Any kind of entitlement is not a good basis to attract someone else.

 

As before, you are also jumping to the conclusion that his actions where mainly motivated by those traits. There are a million and one other reasons that may lie at the base of his actions. Assuming it has anything to do with those traits, says more about you than him.

 

 

The reason it seems I'm "all over the place" is because I'm going through a bunch of feelings and reflections about this, and if I had it figured out, I wouldn't be posting. I'm not gonna lie, I'm confused and the implications of different parts of this I want to understand better, so I'm exploring it away from the people who normally would accuse me of "analyzing it to death" (i.e., people in my real life). The beauty of ENA to me is that people stick around for an OP to work through something long after people in real life/friends would want to snap their heads off.

 

Oh I understand that you are confused and I think trying to work through those in whatever form is an excellent idea. However, if you want outside input, it’s usually easier to receive in a useful way to you, if you have identified and expressed to others what you are after. As someone who is responding, I adjust/limit my responses according to what the OP is asking for.

 

I have not posted such a personal thread here in years. And I almost didn't post this, because I felt I should be able to figure this out on my own, and plus, I imagined it would be seen with some stereotypical lenses that I don't feel fit my situation. But I posted anyway because for ME, this is not a simple and straightforward subject or incident, and if it were, I assure you I would have kept mums.

 

There is no need for you to justify why you have posted this thread. I certainly didn’t mean to imply that you shouldn’t have posted this. I merely was trying to challenge you to figure out for your own benefit what the underlying overall intention in your particular situation with this guy was.

 

Quite a number of people (myself included) have shown that they are not responding through stereotypical lenses and are trying to respond with taking your particular situation and background into consideration.

 

Will this issue finally drop, yes, but even though you're labeling it for me ("casual sex", which is "supposed" to be xyz), for me this is not a casual experience, for all the reasons I've described over these pages, whatever type of sex you want to catalogue it as.

 

I merely picked up the term ‘casual sex’ in contrast to ‘romantic relationship’. Throughout my responses I have expressed that I don’t believe in narrowing labels and that there are many more shades of gray. I’m a big proponent to stress that human relationships are complex because people are complex and that our language is too constricted in describing all the differences. I also tried to express that I don’t find anything wrong with having casual experiences and nothing to be ashamed of nor something that needs to be done in secrecy.

 

However, this paragraph actually contains the answer to the question that I had: if this was a truly casual or not experience for you. Now that you have answered that, you/we can move on and try to help you find the answers you are still seeking.

 

You're trying to make it fit into a certain box, and I understand why you're doing that -- you're trying to define the nature of what casual sex is about so I can ascribe its correct value to it, and move on without all this mental contortion (and thank you for the fine intentions), but it's not that easy for me because all the extenuating ramifications it has for me are VAST (my perception of my body, my perception of my overall sexuality, my mixed feelings about not having consummated it, my sex appeal as I may or may not be accurately judging it, what about this attention has inspired in me, either good or bad, my health and related risks, the complications that don't exist for others in that, weighing out those pros/cons, my future sex life and what I want from it, my fears about it, etc.)

 

Look, for me, it doesn’t matter if it fits into a box or not (or which box). However, it’s clear that for YOU it matters quite a lot. You started this thread (from my understanding) with the claim that you wanted to experience for once something that ‘wasn’t necessarily motivated mainly by hoping it to turn into a long lasting romantic one’ (I didn’t want to use any kind of term, so you wouldn’t think I am trying to label/define your experience for you). One strategy to help someone else find the right label for themselves (and IMHO it sounds as if you are trying to find the right label) is to throw out different options so that they can be rejected or accepted.

 

Having said that, I think this is a very important paragraph because this is what this situation is really about for you. It’s not about HIM at all. It’s about you and your perceptions of yourself and trying to identify what you want and what you want for your future and how to shape that. This is truly where the focus should be. Not on trying to get into this particular guy’s head. He is just a trigger for some of the thoughts. By understanding this particular guy you will not be able to understand guys in general nor find necessarily the answers to the questions that you stated here.

 

I have tried to express some of these significant issues as they relate to nonchallant, common "casual sex", as defined by *whomever thinks they have the right definition*, and in the end, this is about the ambivalence and unsteadiness I feel around all these issues -- not what people who are not me do with casual encounters. Of course their expectations are relevant inasmuch as this dude is behaving according to such common patterns, but for me the labels and what they designate mean little here.

 

I think you are giving people less credit than is due. We get that this is a situation with many nuances and that there is ambivalence. Where some of the disconnect may be is, that you are trying to get into the head of this guy more than is necessary because you are assuming that his actions were based on conscious decisions with a lot of thought behind it and thus each action of his is a direct reflection what he may or may not think and feel about you. However, unlike you, many people are simply NOT like that. They just live from one moment to another. Doesn’t always have to be a bad things – it’s just different from how you are. Thus the continued stress on ‘casual’ meaning ‘not without a lot of thought’ is the most likely reason for HIS actions. This is not the same as saying that for YOU the situation has been (or not) casual. You ask people not to apply their labels onto your situation. In the same spirit, you should not apply your interpretations and thought patterns onto this guy, because most likely what they designate to you mean little to him.

 

I'd like to see one standard definition of "casual sex" that everyone can agree upon. On one end of the spectrum, we have a drunk ONS you picked up at the bar. On the other end of the spectrum, you've got friends who hang out, talk, share life, and once in a while, get it on. And you have everything in between. Anyone who wants to lump all these shades of meaning and behavior (and emotion!) into one box, I don't see eye to eye with.

 

One person may pick a flower, smell it, and cast it aside. Another person may smell it and then write a book of poetry based on that. Person A might call Person B "overwrought". "It's JUST a flower. Sniff it, enjoy it, move on. That's what it's SUPPOSED to be." Says who?

 

I totally agree. Things are hardly ever black and white.

 

All my life people have told me that I overthink things, and sometimes I do. I'm a pick-aparter, for sure. My sympathies are with you -- sometimes I hate not being simpler.

 

I’m not entirely sure what you are trying to express with this, but it sounds awefully condescending. No offense taken, but thought I’d point out how it reads nevertheless.

 

There is nothing wrong with picking things apart (why I chose to respond in such an extensive manner), however I think it makes a huge difference if one can manage to keep the overall goal in mind while trying to analyze to the smallest detail. There is a balance for most things, while too little thinking is not good, too much can be equally detrimental.

 

The word ‘efficiency’ doesn’t really capture it properly, but I can’t think of a more appropriate term right now: the difference between overthinking and analyzing something in depth is the ability to ensure that the thinking is ‘goal directed’ and that neither the amount of energy, the invested time, nor the emotions that go along with it are interfering with one’s general well-being or with the the ‘goal’. Thus different situations warrant different amount and energy of thinking through them, there is no one-fits-all. Part of being an ‘efficient thinker’ rather than an overthinker is also the ability to accept and recognize when there are no more (nor more new) answers to be gained by additional thinking and to know when to accept a conclusion, even if it’s not the one one was initially hoping for.

 

Thus, when I said you are spending too much thought on this, I should have clarified it as: you are spending too much time on trying to figure out the guy and his motivations rather than focusing on yourself. This guy has proven through his actions (whatever his reasons and motivations may be) that he was interested in a casual (in the sense that most people use it) interaction, but that he doesn’t want to take it further. No amount of thinking is going to change that. However, the same amount of thinking through your own motivations and emotions in this situation will be highly beneficial to you.

 

But all of the feedback here has been productive, insightful, helpful, interesting, and FRESH, so I don't feel that it's too much. (A shout-out to everyone who has remained here, still following along.) I'm borderline getting to feeling sick of hearing myself talk about this, and wanting to get back to what I prefer to talk about, which is other people's stories. But I'm still getting a lot of good comments and this situation will not be completely clear until events occur some days from now. As I said, this is a self-limiting (most likely) situation -- though the chance still exists he may suggest we get together some time -- I highly doubt it, but it's not over til it's over, and I want to be prepared for any eventually in terms of the stand I take (which is still currently lacking in firmness and conviction), as this comes to a head. I even feel that once I leave, there will be an aftermath to deal with, because the stuff it raked up will not be gone even if he is.

 

 

 

I think you are overestimating the guy and underestimating yourself. Yes, this particular guy will not be in your life once you both have moved. However, the emotions and desires that this situation has evoke will still exist. He was just a simple trigger, not really the ‘creator’ of these desires. Thus I don’t think these desires will stop to exist just because he is not part of your life anymore. You may not be able to suppress those desires as you did in recent years now that they have been reawakened.

 

I knew it would be very hard to communicate some of the less typical aspects of this story and my own version of a familiar theme. If you feel frustrated by my posts (with all due respect, I sense a bit of that in your wording, such as "analyze it to death" -- not a flattering expression), or you think my basic process here is flawed (because of the subject or content), it's probably not going to be very productive.

 

I hope I have shown you that I don’t feel frustration and that I am not thinking ‘you should drop this and just get over with this’ and that I don’t want to discuss this anymore (all of this was your interpretation), but I think your focus should shift more onto you.

 

The analyzing to death comment: as explained above, it’s not a simple question of quantity of thinking, but if the ‘focus/goal of the thoughts is on target’ or not. Trying to figure the guy’s motive out is – IMHO – not on target. By trying to analyze his thought patterns and why he did what he did and why he didn’t see you in the same way as the other girl etc, you totally seem to have lost (i.e killed) the positive energy boost that you could derive from this situation: a 20-something year old guy was attracted to you to open his bedroom door for you. Since he won’t be a part of your life anymore you can now shift your focus on how to go about trying to find someone who is willing to share what you desire (requiring you to know what that is of course) while knowing you don’t have to worry with selfdoubts about your sexual attractiveness, because he showed you that you still got it.

[Miss Firecracker]

I missed the story about this other woman. If there is a significant one in his life right now, that would explain why he would not want to kiss you. He must be feeling guilt about what he was doing with you!

[tiredofvampires]

Once again, thank you for your weighty and thoughtful continued responses. It's all very helpful. I'll have more luxury later to respond.

 

There's one very imminent issue now here, for me, which I'm putting out there.

 

This occurred to me last night, and now seems quite likely: he may not show up today (Sunday) to finish his portion of the cleaning and remove the few things that are left of his, here. He gave his notice of intent to move a couple of days after I did, and I have two days still to go, myself.

 

Once I remove my bed here, I will not be here anymore, not to sleep, that is. Today, my friend is coming to help get the bed out, and we will do final clean-up, which is mostly just steam-cleaning the carpet. Since the landlady has rattled all kinds of crazy sabers that sound like she will find reasons to withhold some of the Security Deposit, and has further sent me the very inappropriate message that I minimize my in-person dealings with her (basically, stonewalling me) by leaving my keys at her door and just leaving, I need to be sure that I document all my clean-up duties as being done and the keys being dropped off. In lieu of the appropriate and standard procedures of a landlord doing a final inspection with me, approving, and me handing back the keys, my friend is going to do a video tour documenting the final clean-up and drop-off of they keys at her door, so that she can never claim something was not done right. We'll have evidence.

 

The problem with this? It may have to be done before I see this guy return. Clearly, he is going to finish his clean-up in a more leisurely way, now that he has his main furniture and stuff in his new place. He can come back here any time within the next few days. Though knowing his schedule and habits a bit, I'd suspect it could be tomorrow, if not today.

 

So what if I don't even see him today? Once I drop off the keys, I'm out of here.

 

I am stiffening myself for the goodbye that is not satisfying, that is devoid of any efforts on my part to get verbal closure with him. But I do want to see him after all that has happened and give him a hug goodbye, and tell him to take care of himself. Or something like that. I want to SEE him. It feels so icy to walk out of here not even saying goodbye.

 

Part of me wonders is that would be the perfect thing. But I also know myself -- that then that would be another fragment of lack of closure to agonize over, wondering what the last looks we exchanged and words could have been, to culminate all this dissection on this thread with what MY GUT TELLS ME in the moment, to feel I've had the eye contact. And hopefully, a point of graceful ending.

 

Given we (friend and I) were going to drop off the keys today after all was done, with it on camera, I won't be able to do that, unless I keep the keys and come back (expressly for this purpose [of course he doesn't have to know that]), on the chance he'll be here tomorrow. Clearly, this is a logistic obstacle.

 

Under other circumstances, I'd say that's almost neurotic, but we do have some real history here, I emphasize -- not just with the sex at the tail end, but all the rest that came before.

 

God, this is so contorted. But what if he doesn't show up today, or by when my friend leaves?

 

How would it be to just LEAVE?

 

I don't know if that's advisable, given that you wouldn't even do that with a FRIEND. I mean, I plan on saying goodbye to the other female roomate (if she's home). Let alone this and him. I'm not going to pretend this is of casual significance to me now, all of it, despite what the sex itself was/wasn't.

 

Thoughts?