How to Deal with a Curve Ball I NEVER Saw Coming (death by puns)

[LikeWater]

First of all I'm a guy, and I'll try to share my view of this.

 

It seems the story is done, for now at least, so I can't really offer any advice. I don't know what I'd tell you even if it were appropriate. You seem to be such an intelligent woman with a great head on your shoulders. All I can really say is that you shouldn't be ashamed or even questioning the way you've dealt with this experience. It's just the way you're wired and I personally see it as a great thing. You know what you want and you know what you need. For you, it's all about the emotions and all about that feeling of being appreciated. It's all about affection.

 

So really... you just kind of stumbled into a situation that you're not only unfamiliar with, but quite frankly, just isn't for you. Even if you made the decision in your mind that you're just going to have NSA, hot and steamy sex with this guy... you know in your heart that you would require something more. He would have came, he would be perfectly happy with the entire outcome... while you'd be left feeling empty, feeling like the tale had not been finished. Do you understand what I mean?

 

That doesn't mean you didn't have anything positive come out of this. As you said, you feel renewed, you feel sexy again, you're realizing you ARE desirable and hey... you got to have a couple nights with a stud. Yes, he turned out to be kind of a d***, but oh well. The problem is simply that you are much more than he can handle.

 

This is just the way I see it from what you've written. Your writing is brilliant by the way. I read through the whole thread!

 

I hope you're doing well and I hope you'll be able to look at this whole thing as not only a learning experience, but also, even if on a level that's not quite clear, as something that was a GOOD thing. Maybe even something you just needed in a weird way.

 

Sorry for arriving late to the party! Hopefully my post is still of benefit. Take care!

[truman2017]

the more I read the less I like this man.....

[Wayfara]

I see everyone as deeply flawed, as being human. So I could be friends with a compassionate toad. But that's a bit oxymoronic in my world, at a certain point. I mean, no, I would not want to go on casual dates with Hitler, even if we both loved dogs.

 

You wouldn't? lol Yes, I think there are degrees of toadness, as you say, and good actions don't always make someone less of a toad like with the mentioned case of Hitler. Goodness doesn't have to be correlated with low evilness, sometimes you hear about people who dedicated their life to good while they also abused their family. I think one has to look at the extremness of their bad actions to make the judgement if this is a toad you can be friends with, a rapist could be the savior of thousands but I don't think I would want to be his friend anyway.

 

I think the question will be moot, because he won't contact me and I've left it to him to do. But IF he did, this question would be very relevant.

The %age of toad one can tolerate is subjective so there is no right or wrong answer. If you decide to be friends with him though I would avoid getting sexual with him again as that would reward his disrespectful behavior toward you.

 

Most of the marriages I see where the wife is beloved and adored even with the disability is one that started with her being well

 

People are often more open minded concerning illness and disablites when it's someone they already love who has gotten afflicted but I also think when you are ill you are less likely to date due to the illness so the cause might be a combination of the two.

 

a question of sticking by eachother "in sickness and in health," and having a very strong bond overall.

 

Someone might stay out of loyalty and common history but I don't think loyalty and common history are enough to maintain love and adoration so if you know a man who loves and adores his disabled wife he probably likes being with her too. And while her husband might not have given her a go if she had been ill from the start their happiness together isn't be based on when they got to know each other. So what I meant in my last post is that if you believe it is possible for other disabled people to be good partners for their significant other then that must be true for you too.

 

Not everyone will be able to deal with the limitations that your condition creates but that doesn't make you a bad partner in my opinion, just as infertility, being a single parent or caregiver to an ill relative doesn't, it just makes them incompatible to those who can't deal with those limitations. Looking at yourself and this guy, you are the one with the disability and he is young and healthy yet you were the better lay, his young hot body couldn't make up for the selfish mind. Compared to an abusive, albeit healthy, jerk you have a much better chance at making someone happy in spite of your condition.

 

You seem like a woman with a big heart and you are no ordinary woman which I think this thread shows. No one is guaranteed to find someone so I won't say you will but I am pretty sure there are men out there who want the niche that is you and they won't find you replaceable with a 44-year old without health issues. There is and can only be one tiredofvampires.

 

The problem for me is, though, that this process is a bit reversed. Because there is nothing visual, or an obvious impediment, to "get past" with me, a man generally assumes I'm perfectly fine.

 

Sorry, didn't think of them getting feelings before understanding the severity of your condition. As your condition is less known and not visual it's harder to weed out those who can't deal. The only thing you can do is try to tell them in time and educate them, as you say, and if they still deceive themselves into thinking it less serious than it is and can't deal when reality hits them it's not really your fault, you did all you could. Yes, you will be taking a risk with your heart but that's unavoidable unfortunately if you want to find someone.

 

I've been told to take more risks on this thread. But taking that risk -- and that's the risk I'd ultimately be going after, not sex with some man who couldn't care less about me -- feels insurmountably scary.

 

I understand that fear, love is risky business, often lead to heartache. Only you can decide what is best for you, how much you want it and how well you would be able to deal with things falling through, if you want to play the it safe or love anyway. I wish you luck either way.

[mines]

tiredofvampires, I've missed out on some of the posts in this thread (I was here at the beginning but haven't caught up in a few days). Read your last posts here, and the 'full accounting' aka "The Shower Scene", and honestly this guy sounds like a very selfish lover.

 

I have a current F Buddy, (we don't hang out, so I don't consider it a FWB). Still he is very polite, gracious and is a very passionate lover. He's very discreet, sweet and kind to me, we laugh and have a good time when we are together. At no point was it ever a consideration that there would be anything other than the physical relationship. Part of the reason the sex is so good, is that we are both always touching, caressing and enjoying each other, even between 'sessions'. And we are both reciprocal and give each other equal attention. Things are varied each time (of course) but the affection and passion are always present.

 

You don't have to have 'loving' feelings or anything more than a hot steamy sexual relationship to be affectionate, considerate and passionate. Coldly standing in the shower while being 'serviced' meanwhile he's not touching you, kissing you, etc. is just wrong.

 

He sounds like a self-absorbed, egotistical pretty boy. (note, I've had a few pretty boys and they are NOT always like this loser). Sorry if I am too harsh, but that last accounting really riled me up! Apologize for posting without catching up to the whole thread....heading back to do that now

 

I wish you the best. You deserve the type of lover that you WANT.

[ProtestTheHero]

It's probably not all that helpful to tell you what I'd do because I don't think I'm a good litmus test for standard behavior. I'm guilty of probably half of those things, but none of those involved pressuring someone to do anything outside of what we already established was cool.

 

However, I have brushed someone away who was kissing my chest. I have spent the majority of my sexual encounters drunk out of my mind. I have put forth minimal effort. I have been indifferent and inattentive. In these scenarios I don't want someone treating me like royalty or nuzzling up to me or doing anything that attempts to recreate what this is. This is the .99 cent menu of sex. This is the Drive-thru at Wendy's of sexual gratification. It is what it is. I don't want to pretend otherwise.

 

Would I tell people or do any of those other things? No, but I'm sure if we removed everything from your post regarding feeling pressured and lamenting the fact that this guy wasn't being very discrete, then someone could have written something equally unflattering about me, lol. That's why I feel that I can step into his shoes (in an imperfect way, obviously there are differences). If we remove the pressure and the fact that he ran his mouth a little too much to other people, I don't see the rest as maltreatment. I don't think maltreatment is the equivalent of being a crappy/indifferent lay. I know for a fact that she's not going to blow my mind and I have no expectation of doing that either. If she grows tired of us drunkenly hooking up and feels like she's not getting much out of it then she's free to leave it. Her feelings aren't hurt and neither are mine. If she finds my effort unimpressive and knew I wasn't all that invested in whether I blew her mind or not and keeps coming back for more, I don't see who she can blame other than herself.

 

That certainly doesn't sound like the end of a Disney movie but we have to be accountable for the way people treat us in terms of the standards we establish. If we don't hold them to our own standards then who will, and who else can we blame? That's just the way I look at things. As I said before, the only check on this sort of behavior is to stop rewarding these guys so that they'll be forced to put more effort into it.

[tiredofvampires]

I'll be back shortly to respond to the newest posts...thank you again, everyone, for contributing such a wealth of food for thought, as well as moral support with a variety of angles.

 

Just for now, though, as a little update:

 

Either way report to ENA

 

Ha, will do, truman.

 

So he texted me today.

 

He told me he got his security deposit back without any hitches. From what he told me, it appears the landlady even gave him a slight break.

 

I texted back saying that was super cool, that I hope she'll be as easy on me, and that we're still waiting in limbo on ours. But that I feel more upbeat about it because of his report.

 

That was that, then. No response after that from him (which I didn't expect.)

 

So that one piece is filled in: whether he would even bother to text me with the outcome of that, as he said when we parted. And he did. It's a small matter...but I did not expect him to follow through with that.

 

So now, I don't have to make a judgment call about whether or not to initiate this interchange. I'm going to text him when my mom gets her deposit back, about how it worked out for me. EZ PZ.

 

But, ha, there's always a "then what?" question here, isn't there?

 

I mean, it could go like this:

 

SCENARIO A:

Him: I got my deposit back and it was cool

Me: Good for you, I hope it happens like that for me

(a couple days later) Me: Yay! I got my deposit back, too!

Him: Cool

 

THE END

 

 

Or, it could go:

 

SCENARIO B:

Him: I got my deposit back and it was cool

Me: Good for you, I hope it happens like that for me

(a couple days later) Me: Yay! I got my deposit back, too!

Him: Cool

Me: So now we're free, that place can burn in hell, lol. How's your new place working out? Are you getting more used to it? [he said it was super noisy]

Him/Me: __????????___ .......(or not)

 

Those are the two viable scenarios I see. However, there is even a Scenario C, and I'll base it on truman's post, as follows:

 

if you want to see him, make the call.

The worst that can happen is that he blows you off. I doubt that would happen, he said he wants to see Lincoln with you. Rejection may sting your ego, but that is the price one pays for taking the risk.

The best thing may be a continuing friendship, although that may end when a more permanent partner ultimately enters his life.

 

SCENARIO C

Him: I got my deposit back and it was cool

Me: Good for you, I hope it happens like that for me

(a couple days later) Me: Yay! I got my deposit back, too!

Him: Cool

Me: Uh huh, so let's go get a bite to celebrate that s.t being behind us! Wait! What about that movie? It's coming out in like a couple of days, isn't it?

Him/Me: __????????___ .......(or not)

 

So that's the risk truman's talking about. And the reason I don't see this as a viable option is because even though I don't have a problem asking guys something like this (and I've done it before), I feel that it could send the wrong message. And that message, as I said, is that I am clutching at straws and need this more than he does.

 

In a pure friendship (or hopeful dating situation in the abstract), this would be uncomplicated. But the sexual component with us established something I do not want to reinforce: that namely, I'm eager to be doing all the work to make things happen. No way in hell am I going to chase him, particularly since this situation could carry the implication of the older woman pursuing some stud who I can't seem to get over. ICK. It'd have to be with us feeling like we enjoy the companionship on an equal footing, and there's zero power/age/interest imbalance. That was muddied with the sex.

 

I feel that it's up to him, because he's been the more flighty party here. And I know better than to try to capture a bird in flight.

 

I don't know if others see that as him calling the shots, but my main goal is to be sure it's clear I'm not desperate. Because I'm not. Even if I'd LIKE to hang out (with some qualifiers, which are for another post), and even though I kind of miss him and our lively chats, life will go on if he vanishes.

 

My feeling is that if he wants this for any reason, if I have made any impression on him worth his time, then let him come forward. If not, I'd just let it be.

 

But I'm not sure. And Scenario B is kind of a compromise between A and C, in terms of me prompting him.

[tiredofvampires]

First of all I'm a guy, and I'll try to share my view of this.

 

It seems the story is done, for now at least, so I can't really offer any advice.

 

Welcome to the party, LW! It's never too late in the game, and I so appreciate your comments and sharing your take on all this!

 

I feel like you "get it" from everything you've said! And thank you for the very kind, encouraging words. You seem quite articulate and thoughtful of a person, yourself, so I hope I'll see more of your posts on ENA.

 

As for the story being over, if you check out the most recent update on my situation with him, there is still a bit of a question I've got, about how to best proceed with him. As I see it, I could either attempt to prompt some friendly dialogue at this juncture to see if it leads to a reciprocal interest in connecting, now that we've moved, or I could leave it up to him to make any further overtures. I'm debating about how forward to be, as my read of his current mindset is obviously clear as a brackish pond. I see pluses and negatives with each approach, and was wondering if anyone might lend their opinions on that. So if you're still tuning in to this thread, you could still advise me on that. (see posts relating to that, one right above, one right below)

 

All I can really say is that you shouldn't be ashamed or even questioning the way you've dealt with this experience. It's just the way you're wired and I personally see it as a great thing. You know what you want and you know what you need. For you, it's all about the emotions and all about that feeling of being appreciated. It's all about affection.

 

You just hit the nail on the head. I have realized from this experience that I can't separate sensuality and affection from my sexuality. When I (and you) say "affection", that means a kind of playful lust that gets woven into the experience. I want the passion and physical sensuality to rile me up so I'm fully present, instead of just going through some motions as an automaton. I feel that if we are human beings rather than inanimate sex props, there is absolutely no point in it without being able to play and frolick and enjoy different sensations and kinds of touch, without it being "censored." I CAN'T STAND WHEN PEOPLE STIFLE MY EXPRESSIVENESS, and this is a universal for me.

 

There is no point in a living, breathing person having sex with you (imo) if you are divorced from them being a person. It doesn't compute to me how it doesn't miss the point for anyone, but of course, I'm just one person. A blow-up doll doesn't need to be kissed or touched, told anything sexy, or to touch you, so why not just go with that? And it's not so much that I have to commit myself in any way in order to feel that our being naked involves a basic care for their body and appreciation of it, which the sex is ABOUT demonstrating. I may be weird in that way, but "getting mine" is about enjoying our bodily contact in all ways and feeling free with that.

 

You can't feel free and uninhibited with your body when you've got all these unspoken rules about how we can't touch or express anything, how that ruins or threatens the "sacred" impersonality of the arrangement, and how doing so is taboo. Such sex seems not just cold, but rigid. How can that be enjoyable enough to warrant doing it? Inhibited sex = BAD sex = why bother?

 

I don't feel that warmth is an unrealistic thing to want, even if it's just for one night. And the deprivation of that speaks to me about something more than just another person's lack of emotional interest. Lack of warmth in these situations to me signals some greater internal obstacle or fear.

 

So really... you just kind of stumbled into a situation that you're not only unfamiliar with, but quite frankly, just isn't for you. Even if you made the decision in your mind that you're just going to have NSA, hot and steamy sex with this guy... you know in your heart that you would require something more. He would have came, he would be perfectly happy with the entire outcome... while you'd be left feeling empty, feeling like the tale had not been finished. Do you understand what I mean?

 

Yes, I do know what you mean, and that was so well-put, it feels like me trying to describe what's in my own brain. I think you're right about all of this. I kind of know this in my heart. I guess the problem is that since I've got these health issues, I feel that the true picture of how I'd feel and what would disappoint is absent here. I'm extrapolating from what I already know about myself and how I feel about such things to conclude that. But what if I'm missing out on some mind-blowing experience that is not available to me?? That'd be sad, you know? I just hate that I've been dealt a hand where trying this out is next to impossible, because by the very nature of my situation and extenuating difficulties, I just about NEED someone I can trust physically to take my cues. And wild, spontaneous, abandon with a person who knows and cares not is ill-suited to that requirement. So that really haunts me. If I'm missing out on something.

 

I've actually wondered, while processing my thoughts on this thread, whether for some people, it contributes to the high of carnality to have a level of disregard. Because if you take all higher human brain capacity out of the equation, there must be a different energy to the experience. And what is that like? Does that add intensity? Or pleasure? Or thrill? Or raw feeling of some kind that you simply can't get otherwise, in a situation with more regard for the person as something more developed than a fellow ape? Is there anything positive to recommend that minimization of the experience at all? These are real questions, as crazy as they may seem to most people who have tried the gamut and feel fairly confident of their physicality.

 

The problem is simply that you are much more than he can handle.

 

Haha, I love you for saying that. Even though ironically, it's been the source of so many woes on many aspects of the romantic front for me. So it's bittersweet.

 

I hope you're doing well and I hope you'll be able to look at this whole thing as not only a learning experience, but also, even if on a level that's not quite clear, as something that was a GOOD thing. Maybe even something you just needed in a weird way.

 

I couldn't have said it better. DEFINITELY...that last sentence rocks.

[tiredofvampires]

So, I should probably text him, as I've found out that my deposit has also been returned without any problems.

 

If this does not completely die a natural death, only two possible outcomes that I can see, exist:

 

1. We have some kind of friendship that involves the dynamic we had before the sexual stuff, only we are doing things out and about, rather than just talking in our living space; SO, FRIENDS WITHOUT BENEFITS

 

2. We start in with the above, and it progresses to a FWB situation

 

Honestly, I would be game for #1, without question. He's fun. He's got youthful vitality that rubs off on me. We have a number of interests in common to sustain it. He's intelligent, and therefore intellectually, we're compatible. And it's diversity, as I pointed out. He might even make a nice bit of armcandy, should I want a date for more sophisticated events that I wouldn't go to by myself, haha.

 

As for #2...I would not let it progress into that unless I had a frank convo with him about my "standards." It would have to be different, basically. I'd make it quite clear that I have no designs for a future relationship and don't feel that romance with him would serve either of us well. This would be for now, for pleasure, for enjoyment of physicality -- but that it can't go the way it was then. This thread has helped me shape my position on that, and I'm much clearer than when I started out. It's not worth it to me to have bangity-bang sex where he doesn't touch me, since the way sex fills a need for others, touch fills a need for me. That's MY itch that needs to be scratched. And I can't have this bravado attitude either, that'd have to go. So I'd spell it out, what's cool and what's not. And this time, he'd be the one to take it or leave it. Having any more sex with him would involve him being more attentive, considerate, and picking up my cues.

 

Could he actually go into it on those terms? It's possible I'm creating a man that does not exist within him, under these circumstances, to ask for that. But then we'd either be left with #1 or nothing at all.

 

The question I'm stressing about right now is: how much should I endeavor to initiate some conversation, or an offer to go out (the more bold version of "testing the waters")?

 

I've got one text to make, and that would set the tone for all the rest.

 

On the positive side of me prompting him is that I'm showing him that I'm still game, and he may assume if I don't that I'm not. On the negative side, he may take from that that I will be doing all the work to make things happen (ala the sex), and just reinforce his sense of superiority, if that's there.

 

So I'm not sure what to do.

 

Our sexual history has really thrown a wrench into this as a pure social attempt.

[DylanNotorious]

Tiredofvampires, you seem like a very intelligent nice lady. So why on earth would you want this guy who is not pursuing you at all? You seem like a women who values herself, but with this guy, you seem to not hold yourself in very high regard. Why is that?

 

Wouldn't you rather have a man who is interested in you, and would like a relationship with you? Or do you simply want some adventure in your life at the moment.

[tiredofvampires]

Tiredofvampires, you seem like a very intelligent nice lady. So why on earth would you want this guy who is not pursuing you at all? You seem like a women who values herself, but with this guy, you seem to not hold yourself in very high regard. Why is that?

 

Wouldn't you rather have a man who is interested in you, and would like a relationship with you? Or do you simply want some adventure in your life at the moment.

 

Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes. No question.

 

But as I've said in this thread...I've got some fears that have increased significantly about that happening, with the recent more worrisome developments with my health, and the way the last 2-3 years have taken a toll on me.

 

So with no man for the relationship I really want on the horizon, and this falling in my lap, though I'm not SEEKING such adventures, the adventure of it has been wildly intoxicating to me. I wouldn't pursue it randomly with some man, but one that's already quasi available here and now, depending on my next move? Maybe.

 

During these 2-3 years, I've had to stem the bleed of several very critical survival issues -- my health, where I live, a more concerning recent diagnosis that could imply some even greater challenges to come, legal issues -- and in the process, my social life has taken a rather gigantic hit. On any given day, I've usually had any number of friends (of different ilk) to call up or arrange some get-together, if I wanted. But as I've dealt with these crises -- which have affected my sense of physical viability -- I've retreated from people socially. Not only because of the way I've seen myself, but even moreso because this was just exhausting stuff I had to deal with and I simply didn't have the energy to go out and have fun. And this just isn't what I want to be bringing to the table, content-wise, on my end of what's going on with life. It's not what people want to be talking about. When I wasn't actively working on these problems and researching solutions, I've been trying to take down time for myself. And I felt I would come out of this cocoon at some point feeling better -- like better company, like a better potential romantic partner, all of it.

 

It's just that I've taken so many rainchecks, people have stopped calling. And I've drifted from the social life I had, so I've been in a bit of an isolation mode. Not completely, but moreso than at any time in the past. This definitely surpasses all my other ups and downs.

 

So it's not as easy as just deciding to go back out there, since I'm still dealing with these challenges.

 

I've made so proactive efforts, but I've not heard back from some people I've contacted. It's just going to be hard.

 

I don't want to give the impression here that I'm only wanting his company because I've got nothing better, or that he's just the nearest thing. That would be untrue. My friends are still my friends. And I don't know that even if I had a flourishing social life right now, I wouldn't want to cultivate something with this guy. I've cultivated things with people (and guys) before when I thought it was an unlikely alliance. Some of them petered out, some have lasted. So it's not completely out of my normal MO that I'd be interested in this. I'm a people person and can enjoy different aspects of different people.

 

But the fact that this is still fairly fresh means that I feel I should decide what to do with it.

 

How much of its fate is in my hands?

 

Do you really think that even though he's not pursuing me, Dylan, that it'd be pointless to put the feelers out to him that the door is open? Do you feel that compromises me?

 

I guess I'm also not sure what would constitute him "pursuing me". He said he'd be in touch after we moved. And he did get in touch. So that much he did do. It was completely straightforward stuff about the deposit, but really, he didn't have to even bother texting me about that if he wanted to fully wash his hands of it, at least as I'm looking at it. I mean, he didn't owe me that text. So I'm not sure about its significance, and whether that's him making some feeble attempt to look available, and continue some connection or other.

I'm really, really not sure if this represents me not valuing myself, or just being the social omnivore.

 

And maybe...if I'm brutally honest with myself...in a scenario where we'd see a movie, get together, enjoy it, rinse and repeat, and it came back around to sex, I'd be more fully equipped to handle that and making more self-informed decisions, or reject that route.

 

Gosh, I don't know if I made myself clear?

[DylanNotorious]

I just don't know vamps.......but I think that I could support your desicion on this guy, if it were for test purposes lol. So what I'm saying is, I think un-consiously you know this guy is not going to be the guy for you in the long run, but because he's entered into your life and stirred it up a bit, you may actually be getting ready to enter into a proper loving relationship, but maybe this guy is just the test-run leading up to it.

 

I just don't want to see you get hurt that's all.

[tiredofvampires]

I just don't know vamps.......but I think that I could support your desicion on this guy, if it were for test purposes lol. So what I'm saying is, I think un-consiously you know this guy is not going to be the guy for you in the long run, but because he's entered into your life and stirred it up a bit, you may actually be getting ready to enter into a proper loving relationship, but maybe this guy is just the test-run leading up to it.

 

I just don't want to see you get hurt that's all.

 

LOL at that in bold, Dylan! I hate to say it, but...this whole thing has that ring to it. Good catch. Starting with his sexual advances.

 

I absolutely know what I ultimately want with a man, so yes, this has stirred up enough that I'm dunking my toe in something, but I'm also VERY clear that a line with him exists that I will never want to cross. He is not for me.

 

The ambiguous part is, I feel I've already proven to myself that I can JUST be his friend. I VALUE FRIENDSHIPS. If he was 110% player, he wouldn't, but he's not a black-and-white character. I've been able to sustain that with other men, and I don't feel anything we did thus far would mean I can't do that now, with him. I have a small handful of male friends that used to be lovers. In one case, it's always been clear we weren't going to seriously enter a relationship (we push too much of eachother's buttons). Others like this have left my life because they got a new lady, and she couldn't wrap her mind around the fact that I could separate what once happened and a new paradigm for our relating (being platonic.)

 

So in any case, I would not be expecting to get sex with him, but nor if the conditions I stated above about it (my bottom line) were agreeable to him, with my explicitly having that convo with him (no matter how unsexy/awkward it'd be), would I necessarily take it off the table (I just think that's like trying to turn a raccoon into a squirrel with him, because I don't see him suddenly wanting to change his bedroom MO for me.)

 

Either way, I made it clear when we parted that the ball was in his court by telling him he had my number and could use it.

 

So far, he's used it. Now I don't know whose court it's in. lol

 

This is starting to sound like some major military operation, and it's a fricken text.

 

LOL @ myself.

[tiredofvampires]

One thing I will say is that the number of decent, nice men on ENA that have come forward with genuine concern and mature, emotionally-evolved advice is touching, therapeutic in its own right, and heartening to me. Especially since I've exposed some of the things that beleaguer me the most without the slightest guilding.

 

So there's a handful of good ones who don't seem fazed by what I consider to be dealbreakingly against me....(or, I'm not seeing posts by the ones who are fazed, haha.) I wish it was as benign a world out there as here.

 

But it's noteworthy that this place is still an enclave, a subset, of that which exists.

[pippy longstocking]

vamps darling I have been away a few days so I just need bringing up to speed

 

 

did you bang him ?

 

if not ...why not ?

[tiredofvampires]

Hey, Star!

 

vamps darling I have been away a few days so I just need bringing up to speed

 

 

did you bang him ?

 

if not ...why not ?

 

Nope, no bang.

 

I did buy the box of condoms (maybe you read that far?) in case it would come in handy, but he did not approach me for a 3rd session of any kind. I will not have sex without condoms, period. But his lack of initiative + the way the second encounter we had went (a repeat of the first, but with more tension and ill-at-easeness, and concerning elements), I was ill-inclined to make the offer myself.

 

Whether that was a blessing in disguise or not, I'm not sure. I may wind up concluding I dodged a bullet (I mean, physically he may have caused me some pain/problems because he was not attentive).

 

Even with the condoms and an offer on his end though, I was preparing to give him a heads-up about some things needing to change in his demeanor, saying a bang'd be on the table if he could find it in himself to stop acting like I'm a blow-up doll, and that he'd have to listen to cues from me. Oh, and no nursing his beer, if he's going to nurse anything, while we're getting down. Which may have meant no bang, either. lol

 

I wonder what would have happened if I outright told him he might have a chance to get some if he stopped acting like a jacka$$. Hahaha. Alternate scenarios.

[Wayfara]

He doesn't strike me as shy and you have already told him you care about him so if he wants a friendship I don't think he really needs the promting. Prompting him might get him thinking you would be up for more encounters like the two ones before and if I had been you I don't think I would have wanted to further stroke his inflated ego after how he has treated you.

 

The one-sided pleasure and the pushing could have been "written off" as selfishness and immaturity but asking your housemate to join you for a threesome without checking if it's okay with you is blatantly disrespectful and something more than just selfishness and immaturity. Even if it was just to get her reaction he must have known you didn't want your sexual relationship advertised over the house and if he couldn't stop himself from bragging why rub it on your face? The whole thing seems like it was specifically designed to upset or test you.

 

I just don't know vamps.......but I think that I could support your desicion on this guy, if it were for test purposes lol. So what I'm saying is, I think un-consiously you know this guy is not going to be the guy for you in the long run, but because he's entered into your life and stirred it up a bit, you may actually be getting ready to enter into a proper loving relationship, but maybe this guy is just the test-run leading up to it.

 

I just don't want to see you get hurt that's all.

 

I agree with this. I've never been in your situation and maybe you need this. But if you are going to do it make sure you are doing it for the right reasons, even if you don't want romance with this guy romantic feelings can catch up and he doesn't seem deserving of any deeper feelings from you.

[tiredofvampires]

Goodness doesn't have to be correlated with low evilness, sometimes you hear about people who dedicated their life to good while they also abused their family. I think one has to look at the extremness of their bad actions to make the judgement if this is a toad you can be friends with, a rapist could be the savior of thousands but I don't think I would want to be his friend anyway.

 

Yeah, I think it comes down to what you said -- taking a person at their worst, and basing your standards from there. This line though is not a "hard", concrete one for me. I don't have a codebook where I would write someone off or not based on given flaws. It would have to come down to degree, how it balances out with their other attributes, and especially, how they view their own flaws. It's very much on a case-by-case basis.

 

If someone knows that they have a problem, I can be pretty forgiving. It's the ones that unscrupulously continue on exploiting people that I want nothing to do with. So, self-awareness is really key.

 

My take on this guy is that he does have that capacity (maybe it even had something to do with why he bolted out). So that tends to mitigate things a bit.

 

If you decide to be friends with him though I would avoid getting sexual with him again as that would reward his disrespectful behavior toward you.

 

That's a good way of putting how I feel about it. As I said above in another post, I would only consider getting sexual again with him if I could be direct about my objections and have a different understanding. But that's creating a fictional man with a fictional capacity and a fictional personality.

 

People are often more open minded concerning illness and disablites when it's someone they already love who has gotten afflicted but I also think when you are ill you are less likely to date due to the illness so the cause might be a combination of the two.

 

True. And that's one of the problems here. If I were dating more, I would have a chance to investigate more prospects. But the reason this hasn't happened has been because of the illness and recent developments, which in turn fuels the feeling that I can't hope to date indefinitely, which then is a self-perpetuating cycle.

 

He doesn't strike me as shy and you have already told him you care about him so if he wants a friendship I don't think he really needs the promting. Prompting him might get him thinking you would be up for more encounters like the two ones before and if I had been you I don't think I would have wanted to further stroke his inflated ego after how he has treated you.

 

That's really how I'm feeling now. Thanks for concurring with that -- my feeling is that he knows exactly what is open to him, and if he had any wish to cultivate something, I think he'd need to actually demonstrate that. You know, raise a finger.

 

The one-sided pleasure and the pushing could have been "written off" as selfishness and immaturity but asking your housemate to join you for a threesome without checking if it's okay with you is blatantly disrespectful and something more than just selfishness and immaturity. Even if it was just to get her reaction he must have known you didn't want your sexual relationship advertised over the house and if he couldn't stop himself from bragging why rub it on your face? The whole thing seems like it was specifically designed to upset or test you.

 

I only added this Shower Story "detail" in the story late in the game because I didn't feel it'd add significant information, but it seems clear that others agree this took things to another level. Yes, like I said, the really troubling thing about it was that it seemed geared not mainly to get a reaction from her, but a reaction from ME, and what would be his reason for that?

 

The way it happened though made it very hard to respond to. We were taking this shower and I was already in the mode for that, and what was I supposed to do, with him telling me this as though it were some harmless "fun"? Jump out of the shower (which I wanted to take anyway), yelling at him, telling him that's really disrespectful? The problem is that something like that can be sold off as "I was just having some fun, what's you're problem?" and that he didn't actually TELL her anything about us, so why am I drawing such a paranoid conclusion? It's the sort of thing that can be turned on you as if it's really YOUR problem for having a stick up your ass and being unreasonably serious. So I didn't have a ready appropriate response. And this pattern I think established the rest of the night.

 

Actually, I think it may have started before that when we were sitting on the sofa recapping the first night, and he asked me bluntly if I bought the condoms and said he'd pay me back. I said even if I did get them, I'd cover the cost. As I said before, I did this to assert that I'm making my own choices and don't need him, but he then said, "So....you're a GIVER...?" And the tone in his voice made it sound like the word could have been "doormat." I think that was a major missed opportunity to have said, "Last time I checked, that's a good thing."

 

I missed a number of opportunities because I was blindsided.

[tiredofvampires]

Anyway.

 

Just a newsflash. Or a non-newsflash.

 

I texted him today about getting my deposit back, saying, "Woohoo, we're free now!" I told him it'd all gone peachy for me. And many hours later, not even a response text to say hey, good for you.

 

I could conceivably get a text tomorrow, or the next day. Or the next. Might be too soon to call. But I'm going back to the assumption that this is now over and done with.

 

After all this pondering, I'm surprised at how numb and detached I feel about this person.

 

I really don't think I'd give much that I own to be him, even though the pleasure of sex and all that comes with it is as easy as a breeze...not a subject of private emotional torture, land-mined with scarred memories and associations to try to overcome, and he'll never be wanting for attention, health, prosperity, and opportunity.

 

Funny how these things -- these comings and goings, these hoped-for connections dropped like phone signals in remote areas -- happen so routinely, they don't even register on the radar of the universe. Dime-a-dozen, faceless, nameless. But it's been a journey for me.

[LikeWater]

if you want to see him, make the call.

The worst that can happen is that he blows you off. I doubt that would happen, he said he wants to see Lincoln with you. Rejection may sting your ego, but that is the price one pays for taking the risk.

The best thing may be a continuing friendship, although that may end when a more permanent partner ultimately enters his life.

 

Either way report to ENA

 

I'm going to have to go ahead and just agree with this. I would wait a few days at least, but if he doesn't get in touch with you I see absolutely no harm in you getting in touch with him. Truman spelled it out perfectly. The worst that can happen is he blows you off, doesn't answer, etc. You're already well aware of this but I feel you're strong and level-headed enough that it shouldn't get you down too much. At most it will be a disappointment, but then at least the tale will finally be over (seemingly so at least, I guess you never know, he could randomly call you a month down the road) and you can move on with the next chapter of your life.

 

We all over-think scenarios such as this and make them out to be more complicated than they have to be. That's the nature of things when emotions get involved. I know all too well how that is hehe

 

I have to wonder though... and you haven't made this very clear at all, but what relationship do you actually WANT with this man? Simply a pure platonic friendship? FWB? Hell, do you even know? Do you even care? You have, however, made it quite clear you're not seeking a full blown relationship with him. So are you in the mindset of not even knowing what you really want this relationship to be and you'll just see where it goes? How it naturally develops? Can't help but wonder.

 

I think it's important for you to first define exactly what you're seeking. I think it'll make it much easier to process the whole situation, his actions, and the route you should take on making it happen.

 

By the way, should you decide a FWB relationship is what you want, I do agree with you flat out making it crystal clear to him what that means TO YOU, and what YOU need from that. I agree with the majority of people here who have stated that just because it's NSA sex doesn't you have to go at it like robots, get it over with, and part ways with a "I'll see ya next week." Unfortunately, I see it as very likely that he doesn't feel the same way. It's quite possible that for whatever reason, he won't be able to comply with your needs and that will be that.

 

Perhaps for now it's best you just go the strictly platonic route. You like him as a person, and despite all he's done, I do believe he likes and respects you as a person as well. I doubt he'd have followed through with texting you about the deposit if that wasn't the case. So this is the safest route and probably the best. You guys could just go out and have fun together, see movies, chit-chat about this and that, and next thing you know you have a great friend and the whole situation with your sexual encounters with him will be pretty much forgotten.

 

Ah... it's quite the conundrum, though, isn't it?! As I said, you just need to be honest with yourself and come to a decisive outlook on where you want to go with all this. Is it possible that simply being friends with him and nothing more would not satisfy?

 

I feel like I've rambled a bit here (which I tend to do) but I'm really just trying to offer food for thought. I hope I haven't added to the complications of this whole thing when I clearly stated that we often make these things out to be more complicated than they really are, haha!

 

To conclude: First, decide exactly what you want your relationship with him to be. If that's friendship, no problems there. That's easy. If it's a FWB thing, once the opportunity arises, I'd suggest just being the hottest, sexiest little thang you can be and take the initiative of being affectionate to him. If he's not responding in the way you need, that's when you can spell it out for him. If he's not okay with the conditions you lay out for him, that's that, and you leave and never look back. You'll realize you did all you could given the situation and given your own personal needs and desires. And you can be happy with that.

 

Thank you so much for the compliments and just... being such a kind soul. Hopefully you realize that despite your hardships, despite your health issues and whatever else you've been forced to deal with lately, that you have a lot going for you. Look at the pure appreciation and respect you have on this forum. People are delighted by your company, ToV. That must ring true 100x more in person.

 

Good luck with everything and keep us updated! I can't help but be wildly interested how it all pans out.

[truman2017]

I'm going to have to go ahead and just agree with this. I would wait a few days at least, but if he doesn't get in touch with you I see absolutely no harm in you getting in touch with him. Truman spelled it out [/b]perfectly.

 

 

always like to see this

 

on a serious note, this thread has really made me think about things, reflect on the past and enlightened me in various ways. I intend to treat people and be more attentive to them.....inside and outside the shower

[Wayfara]

This line though is not a "hard", concrete one for me. I don't have a codebook where I would write someone off or not based on given flaws. It would have to come down to degree, how it balances out with their other attributes, and especially, how they view their own flaws. It's very much on a case-by-case basis.

 

It is mostly a case-by-case judgment for me too and we all have different dealbreakers. I can be more tolerant than most about some things and some things I am less tolerant than most.

 

If someone knows that they have a problem, I can be pretty forgiving. It's the ones that unscrupulously continue on exploiting people that I want nothing to do with. So, self-awareness is really key.

 

Very true, some are so self-delusional that they can never see their own wrongs and then they can't feel remorse and remorse just makes it so much easier to be forgiving.

 

the really troubling thing about it was that it seemed geared not mainly to get a reaction from her, but a reaction from ME, and what would be his reason for that?

 

Well I can make a wild guess but I might be far off so I hope you won't mind. He said you are a giver in the same tone as you were a doormat so maybe he thinks being a giver is a sign of being a doormat. He had a rant about women loving jerks but he doesn't seem like the type who has it hard to get women so no reason to rant out of envy or frustration. Maybe he is someone who looks down on weakness and thinks himself to perceive a weakness in women, especially in doormat women who are the type that end up with jerks the most. I know some reason that if someone doesn't demand respect they don't deserve it for being weak, it might not even be a conscious thought, one guy I know call women all kind af bad names when he is drunk, when he is sober he doesn't know why at all. The incident in the shower could have been him testing your boundaries to see if you "deserved" his respect (in his eyes) or maybe he just thought it would be fun to see how much you take from him. And had you called him out on it he could just call it harmless fun and tell you not to be paranoid, as you say, so it was safe game to him.

 

There could be other reasons too. Are you someone who is very calm? Maybe he wanted to see if you always keep your cool.

 

Anyway it is only speculation, you know him better than me.

 

The way it happened though made it very hard to respond to.

 

I think that was a major missed opportunity to have said, "Last time I checked, that's a good thing."

 

I don't think you should feel bad about it, it's hard to come up with a perfect comeback in the moment, I am pretty bad at that myself, and sometimes there is no perfect comeback. You were also caught up in the situation and out of your normal comfort zone, when someone is disrespectful to you you don't always realize it or get sure about it until later because of the surprise of the moment. But if you would ever get into a similar situation again where you realize you are being disrespected just know that some people will always be able to fast-talk you and turn around everything you say to them so a graceful exit might not be possible with them, you just have to accept you will look stupid in front of them and make your stand anyway.

 

he knows exactly what is open to him, and if he had any wish to cultivate something, I think he'd need to actually demonstrate that. You know, raise a finger.

 

Yes, I think he knows exactly what is open to him, but that is not say he wouldn't take a friendship if you prompted him. So I think it is about how much or little effort you would be okay from him. I think it would be a ego stroke for him to have you prompt him but you can choose to not care if the benefits outweigh the costs for you.

 

Either way I think you should use these recent experiences to something positive, he clearly stirred up something in you. And like others have said maybe it is a sign to take more risks, and these risks don't have to be sexual. Most good things involve some risks (now I don't mean you should have unsafe sex I hope you don't misunderstand).

[tiredofvampires]

So whatever anesthetic was in my veins yesterday is ebbing. And it's stinging a bit.

 

It seems to me a referendum on the entire time we spent together -- in and out of the bedroom -- that he did not even bother to text me in kind to congratulate me on my successful deposit return.

 

This is the guy who told me he loved being in his field of hospitality and hotel industry management because he loves the concept of good service. We were once talking about the vulgar and disrespectful treatment by the landlady's daughter. I said, "I'd like to think that I live my life with a little more class than this, and he said, "EXACTLY!!"

 

It's funny though, how if you're attuned...you can perceive things that only later you recognize the meanings of. As I mentioned, for a brief time he was actively courting this girl here (who I assumed was a new love interest in the serious making; this was way before I knew anything about his "lady love" back home who he said he wants to marry). On one Saturday in particular, I saw him with a glass vase ornament that held a spray of baby's breath and roses, which he placed in the center of the kitchen table. No one ever used that table, but by later that day, it had been cleaned and perfect table settings appeared. The silverware, lined up in the proper order (an art lost on me); the dishes elegantly nested in one another and at pleasing angles, indicating a plan of courses; the napkins folded in a practiced way next to the wine glasses. There was even one of those small, cozy and low-lit lamps that give special ambiance to tables at restaurants made for "go-all-out" dates. The kind of restaurants you take your date when you're closing in with anticipation on first-time bedroom activity, or have just had it and are somewhere in the ether with the honeymoon bloom that has just sprung. I didn't want to linger too long admiring the effort put in, and the affinity I have for attention to detail, because I felt I was crashing an intimate staging.

 

Strangely enough though, I had this discordant feeling that I could only identify as the same one that I had with my last ex. Unlike all my boyfriends to that point, he had this lavish material aesthetic which placed great importance, both symbolic and tangible, on these kinds of demonstrations. He loved this kind of elegance and sophistication in his living space -- his concerns included what kind of flowers I would prefer; which kind of vase looked better with those flowers; and making sure that the table was dressed up for the occasion was paramount in his estimation of "what an attentive and romantic date must look like."

 

I've posted about this elsewhere on ENA, but this emphasis made me uncomfortable -- for a few different reasons, but the one that disturbed me the most was, "what woman wouldn't be ga-ga for flowers and nice table settings, and all the bells and whistles?" Yet it put me ill-at-ease, and for a long time I put it to possibly an inability to really imagine someone putting that kind of care and quality into me, so it must be some low self-esteem buried issue, now come to the fore through this disparity of expectations. As time went on, I saw how truly it was about an incompatibility of values, not a self-esteem issue. That first of all, I find it highly unoriginal, as gestures go. That second, it only takes money, a fairly good eye, and the luxury of discretionary time for frivolous considerations to do it. But most of all, that he was really good at the superficial stuff, the gallant gestures that sweep women's pulses up with confected mental images of what "romance" looks like. After that relationship and all the damage he did when the lutes weren't playing and the verses weren't being recited on bent knee up to open windows....I realized it was all part of a fascade. He couldn't do the big things that require unselfishness and generosity of heart. So this is what we were left with as stand-ins.

 

I'm not saying that some man with a really great heart couldn't adore someone much more capably in a real and emotionally grounded way, and still enjoy some of this stuff. (So you guys reading this who are the real deal, no need to discard these flourishes, if you like them!) It's just that my early qualms and distaste for the commercialized and trite nature of it seem to have accurately marked him as someone who was very good at image-making. Ala ADVERTISING. I'm saying that while roses and immaculate cutlery etiquette doesn't mean there's something wrong with a guy, it'd make me more wary than charmed. So count me as the odd lady out.

 

Even though we agreed that "classy" was where it's at. And from there, I thought it would play out as a shared value system broadly applied, which was a mistaken extrapolation. I guess I don't feel that "classy", as the standards you hold yourself to, you get to punch out of.

 

So when I first saw this laid out for the lady, I thought, "Aww....that's sweet. He's so cute, he's doing all the stuff girlies love." It was almost like being back in high school and getting the stuffed bear with red heart boxes for Valentines from boyfriends, saying, "I love you forever." How innocent and sweet. (And unexamined.) And then...there was that slight unease. It all looks good now. It's all that "glitters." What glitters and what's gold sometimes don't even resemble eachother. Was his date even hip to that? I asked on some less-than-conscious level.

 

Sometimes, if it's that sweet, you'll find your teeth falling out one by one and wondering what hit you.

 

Shortly after, she was no longer a presence at that house. I saw/smelled a few cologne-saturated dates come and go with her, followed by early retiring into the bedroom with sounds that I tried not to hear, and then she was gone, for all those Emily Post-approved, A+ Hospitality-Matriculating Student Achievement Table Awards.

 

I'm sure he's the handsomest waiter in his restaurant.

 

So handsome, you wish he'd keep serving and serving you. So handsome you want something more to be offered after dessert but alas, that is that, and you're sad to get the cheque. So handsome and attentive to whether everything was done to your satisfaction and enjoyment, you really wish you could just go home and roger his brains out, where he keeps his fingerprints far, far (did I say far?) away from any of your fine crystal (and these are useless decorations to him, anyway), so both of you can focus on the real centerpiece: his swollen phallus.

 

Wayfara, you remarked that it was I who was the better "lay", even though I have these physical restrictions. Can you even call someone a "lay" if no one gets laid? Haha. Clearly, this gal who was a flash in his pan didn't stand a chance at any sort of continuity and he was actually wooing her ardently. And she actually WAS a lay. It just makes me all the more aghast that I'd think any woman he sticks himself into -- perhaps outside of that "friend"/ex of his -- has even the slightest chance of not being discarded after being laid (whatever the nature of the relationship foundation).

 

I'm not bitter. I'm just saying.

 

I don't know if I'm a "better" or "good" lay, (but thank you for that really nice boost anyway)...I just gather I was too difficult a lay. A troublesome, obstacle-course-ridden lay, lol. Too many if's, and's, and but's. Too much work. Not streamlined for the action. Sort of a ONS lemon. LOL

 

In some ways, I'm ahead then, I suppose. Because the idea of winding up with cervical HPV (which, as we've covered, is entirely possible with even a condom) over someone like this sounds like selling off your house for a 5-day vacation in the Bahamas.

 

I have no idea what I'd started this post off intending to write, but it turned into this stream-of-consciousness-of-a-thousand-tangents.

 

So I'll be back on track.

 

Next up....

[Wayfara]

Wayfara, you remarked that it was I who was the better "lay", even though I have these physical restrictions. Can you even call someone a "lay" if no one gets laid? Haha.

 

I might be biased (bisexual in a same-sex relationship) but in my book oral sex is still sex. But maybe getting laid means intercourse and not sex in general? I'm not an English speaker as you probably have noticed lol. Either way you gave him two orgasms and he gave you none and left you unsatisfied both times so that should tell you who was better at the sex. And even if he wanted intercourse he still got a lot of pleasure or he wouldn't have come back for more (which I doubt he would have if he thought you were bad).

[tiredofvampires]

I might be biased (bisexual in a same-sex relationship) but in my book oral sex is still sex. But maybe getting laid means intercourse and not sex in general? I'm not an English speaker as you probably have noticed lol. Either way you gave him two orgasms and he gave you none and left you unsatisfied both times so that should tell you who was better at the sex. And even if he wanted intercourse he still got a lot of pleasure or he wouldn't have come back for more (which I doubt he would have if he thought you were bad).

 

Ah, touche!

 

I'll go with your definition, then. Works for me!!

 

I almost wish he had given me just a bit more rope to text further, so that he WOULD "get the wrong idea" that I was game for more of the same, and then I'd have a chance to build up to the sexual opportunity to take the bull by the horns and cash in on all the insights gleaned from this thread.

 

Then he'd just be stuck with the friendship components, and all that fun that'd be too hard too resist, heh heh.

 

Anyways, correction: I gave him three orgasms.

 

P.S. Oh, and no, you totally pulled the wool over on not being a native English speaker -- I would have never guessed that. You write far more articulately than many people here, and unfortunately, with the advent of the iPhone series and touch screens, it would appear no one knows how to speak English anymore, right here in America.

[tiredofvampires]

on a serious note, this thread has really made me think about things, reflect on the past and enlightened me in various ways. I intend to treat people and be more attentive to them.....inside and outside the shower

 

This is awesome. Really? Well damn. Call me Aesop! HEHEHE, just kidding.

 

No, but you know something...what an unexpected blessing. How little this guy knows he did. He returned my mojo (somewhat...), but perhaps more than that, his toadish example may be making a few men even better ones. That's way cool, truman. I definitely agree that it should be inside and outside the shower, in a box, with a fox...not in a box, and not with a fox.