How to Deal with a Curve Ball I NEVER Saw Coming (death by puns)

[tiredofvampires]

Okay, scratch that whole last post.

 

I just got out of the shower and he's here. Said "Hey, {ToV}".

[Honey Pumpkin]

Just read this thread - you have his number, why don't you text him and suggest you meet for a coffee before you both move out? It's probably a terrible idea, but I do understand where you're c oming from, and wanting to at least say goodbye.

[penelope13]

If I didn't know the rest of the thread and would read your last post - it reads like one of many, many threads of ENA where a relationship ends and the person who got broken up with is trying to come up with all sorts of reasons why they need to stay in contact/ make sure contact is remained (truly that was the first thought that jumped into my head) driven by similar thoughts of 'we had something real/special, it feels cold to walk out, what will he think of me, what can I do/say last minute to ensure that his impression of me is a positive one'.

 

Personally I would not bother about this and take the attitude 'if I run into him, ok, I may take the opportunity to say something and if not, also fine'.

 

However, you have to decide with which choice you will live better.

 

If you feel, you must in some way try a last ditch effort - then write him a quick short note wishing him well for the future and that you are open to stay in touch via email/phone. In this way you are leaving doors open if he was so inclined to walk through. If he chooses not to, you have even more evidence that whatever you are seeking is not what he is interested in.

 

However, I strongly recommend not to write a lengthy, well thought out letter putting all your thoughts for the simple reason that I think it's much more likely that it won't elicit the response you hope for, much more likely that it doesn't elicit any response whatsoever and instead of receiving closure, you will be left with more questions of 'why he doesn't consider you worthy enough of a response even if it was to say that he is not interested in staying in touch.

 

Hardly any human interaction is defined by a single moment, thus wanting to part 'in a positive light' is often more a sign of anxiety and insecurity than a true believe that in that singular moment you can redefine what your interaction was about.

[Miss Firecracker]

Okay, scratch that whole last post.

 

I just got out of the shower and he's here. Said "Hey, {ToV}".

 

And? Is that it?

[Miss Firecracker]

I have a feeling there is much more to come. No pun intended.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

Once again I agree with Penelope. This whole thing actually sounds like a long-term romantic relationship gone bad rather than simply two people who became friendly out of circumstances had a couple of non-committal sexual encounters and that's that. Given the unpleasantness of the whole situation with the landlord, that should actually be your number one priority, not some "two ships passing in the night" relationship. In fact, I would be more concerned about the fact that you can't hand over the keys in person and get some kind of receipt for handing in the keys. I would not like to just leave keys around especially when there has been that much trouble with the landlord. Your priority should be with making sure you are out of there properly, not how things end with this guy. Anyway, I guess he came over so I hope you get the closure you are looking for.

[penelope13]

i agree with focusing on making sure that things with the landlady turn out alright. I would even suggest mailing the key by registered mail rather than leaving it somewhere in order to have a certified proof that you have indeed mailed it and not kept it.

[Ellie2006]

Yes to Penelope's post, yes to CAD's post, yes to Lavenderdove's post: move onto bigger and better things! Cuz you deserve it.

 

On a sidenote, I know this is totally sexist (and probably inappropriate) of me but i wanted to give you a big "Atta girl!"

[greywolf]

I just wanted to chime in and say that I think it'll be pointless and a waste of your energy to talk to him about it. And I don't think that not talking to him about it means that you are letting him get away with his behavior.

[tiredofvampires]

Yes to Penelope's post, yes to CAD's post, yes to Lavenderdove's post: move onto bigger and better things! Cuz you deserve it.

 

On a sidenote, I know this is totally sexist (and probably inappropriate) of me but i wanted to give you a big "Atta girl!"

 

That's neither sexist nor inappropriate! I'll take it!

 

I just wanted to chime in and say that I think it'll be pointless and a waste of your energy to talk to him about it. And I don't think that not talking to him about it means that you are letting him get away with his behavior.

 

Thanks for weighing in, grey. I kind of came around finally, to that...but....

[penelope13]

So, what happened?

[tiredofvampires]

It's taken me a little while to get back for an update, because I'm trying to adjust to my new locale in my new place.

 

This is a neighborhood I'm not at all familiar with, and even though there's an amazing view and some altitude that will do me some good...there are some big things I'm going to need adjusting to (like a bus that rumbles by right outside my window starting before dawn, on an otherwise very quiet street, and not being close to any of my familiar hang-outs or stores.)

 

I have to say...I'm dealing with some anxiety now, and feeling out of my element. And disconnected, just for starters. This issue and feeling torn away from something familiar and cozy, part of it.

 

But anyway, back to the wrap-up on Sunday...

 

I did focus on getting the move-out duties squared away properly (I certainly wouldn't neglect that!) Thanks for the suggestion of mailing the keys, registered, penelope. That was a good idea but I didn't want to risk the mail coming after my official departure date (which is actually today).

 

And? Is that it?

 

No, lol. There was more after that. That was just the beginning of an afternoon of interaction, as it turned out, but I had to post that it was a moot issue of him not showing up, as he'd just appeared.

 

Before I go into it, though, some other things need to be said.

 

First of all:

 

And you yourself are confused... you alternate between talking about wanting to 'teach' him something, then switch to images of wanting to rest your head on his chest, so really, do you want to be his Mother and straighten him out, or his lover and enjoy his hard body? That confusion is obviously being felt by the both of you, so another sign to just let this go and not try to turn it into either a quest to restore you ego and respect (when he honestly did nothing that means you need to do that), or a quest to turn it into a high romance (which isn't going to happen because you indeed ARE old enough to be his mother and there are very very few men who would be comfortable for more than an encounter or two with as large an age gap as the two of you have).

 

You've said a lot of very incisive things, LD, but it appears I need to re-iterate to you and others who may still be not hearing me on this:

 

There is one thing I'm CRYSTAL CLEAR ABOUT: I DO NOT WANT, AND AM NOT SEEKING, A ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP WITH THIS MAN. NOT ONLY THAT, I WILL NEVER (A WORD I USE VERY SPARINGLY, KNOWING THAT NONE OF US CAN PREDICT THE FUTURE, INCLUDING HOW WE FEEL ABOUT THINGS) WANT ONE. Sorry for the all-caps, but I need to be as emphatic as I can possibly be about this, as it's come up in a variety of posts, even when I thought I took this element off the table, and it was amply clear.

 

I also don't think that wanting to teach him something about life means that I'm standing in as his mother. A friend can teach. A lover can teach. A close relative who is your peer can teach. A stranger on a park bench can teach. We pick up food for thought from all kinds of different sources, so I don't see that my giving him the benefit of a mature/different perspective = "I'm your mom." It's a false choice between "enjoying his hard body as a lover" and "setting him straight" about stuff. Just because I'm older than him (and could chronologically have a son his age) doesn't mean I see advice or personal guidance/reflections I offer him to be "motherly". I also have a nurturing streak that's pretty universally applied.

 

But I certainly would not entertain "a high romance", a low romance, or any romance with him. And when I say "romance," I mean a situation where I am hoping to build a future of some kind -- since for me, romance implies that element. I don't consider affairs, flings, etc. to be romantic -- they're exciting, sexualized interludes, or "dalliances", but for me, a true romantic interest would by definition involve building a history together that I'd hope would blossom into an LTR, and for me, culminating in marriage. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned that way, but that's my definition of romance -- something where "intent to create something lasting" is implicit. This is all theoretical, of course...since as I've said, at this point in my life, I have lost a lot of steam on actively pursuing that, and expecting that to manifest. Mostly because of the focus that's been on my health and the crises that have erupted around that, and related issues in my life. Romance, dating, and attempting to find someone "more appropriate" and likely for me has been put on hold, with a good deal of...not pessimism exactly, but lack of vision that used to be there. Is it something I desire less than I did? Of course not. Am I resigned? No. But I just see it as such a longshot now, I've been in hibernation with it all.

 

And why am I so sure I wouldn't start to bend in that direction with him, if given the chance (i.e., a continued sexual rapport)? As I said, there is too much stage-of-life difference between us to bridge that in either my mind or heart. He feels like a man to me inasmuch as he's solidly into his adult years. Intellectually and physically, we are peers (and I do feel that intellectually, he's not a slouch -- he's got some brains, without which I don't think this could have even happened; something still needs to be going on upstairs, for me). But I do see his mentality and emotional development as boyish (the man-boy thing, yes.) And that's central to having a compatible romantic relationship.

 

I've actually known 20-something men (including here on ENA) who had an EXCEPTIONAL affinity and sensitivity level for all the things I value (and huge surprise, none of them have been alpha males.) But these kinds of guys are, as I say, RARE. This man is more typical, and that means he's got far too much emotional growing to do and I've got no interest in regressing through 20 years of my own growth to deal with his learning curve (no offense to the many great younger men on ENA who may be reading this, who have a wealth of wisdom in their own right).

 

Then there are some more superficial divides -- our interests and being eachother's "type." I'm not as equipped for physical adventures as he'd probably like in a partner, I'm guessing. I certainly don't think he can comprehend my disability, and has no interest in the subject in general. I think he's more interested in mainstream acquisition (material comforts) than I am. He drinks more than I'm comfortable with, and even smokes on occasion; and he is not terribly health conscious even though he's quite buff (you can eat non-optimally and abuse yourself a bit, while still being young enough to look like he does, if you work out a lot.) As an anachronistic hippie with bohemian style, we make an odd "match" -- odd enough that I almost give him credit for fancying me, haha, because it speaks to him being more versatile in his tastes than the average guy like him. But I see him with someone of a different sort....and I SAW someone with him who does not resemble me in probably a lot of ways. And frankly, I even feel that being older, I have a sort of responsibility to not get lost in impossibilities, and to consider that he deserves a normal future with a wife and kids, if that's what he ends up wanting (and he does seem like the type to eventually want that, having a traditional streak in him.)

 

But I'd say the top thing that would deter me is that some aspects of his personality (or character) are troubling to me, as things that may not change with age and maturity. Or they're much harder to change, and require some precipitous motivational trigger. Namely, he has a kind of changeability and unpredictability that I don't trust. There are times when I've felt he was having a very genuine moment of emotion and expression, and in those moments I really liked him and who he was, as well as the fact that he was not hiding some evident vulnerability. When a "manly man" type of guy lets down their guard to show some vulnerability, I've found those times to be expressions of implicit trust in ME, and trust implies a mutually felt bond that IS real. So he's shown some sides to him that I find endearing...very much so. It's those things that I feel a real affection for, which goes beyond just "oh, that was fun, whatevers."

 

But there are other "faces" to him that I either don't like for what they are (the height of it being when we were intimate, when I felt like a faceless nobody, and that he was actually trying to achieve that effect for whatever reason), or I don't like the mere fact that there are different faces that I question as genuine. I like people who are multifaceted and complex -- but I still need to feel that these aspects are all borne out of a genuineness -- that I'm not falsely reading sincerity and honesty into what is presented. With him, I'm not entirely sure sometimes. There's a hint of salesmanship in that, and that leaves me cold and wary. And I can't be with someone who is this old (at 25, that is a significant character trait laid down) with that kind of quality.

 

I guess I'm saying...I don't know if "once a player, always a player." And with whom a player does not play. Or WHEN a player is not playing.

 

Honestly, I couldn't tell anyone how much of that consumes his nature.

 

Nothing could blind me to that. And that's where I feel age has changed me: in my 20's, I'd see such "bad boy" elusiveness and obscurity, and try to look past it for the things that I like. I'd try to reconcile such things in my mind, to appease my intuitive conflict about the man. I'd even find it a challenge. I'd blind myself with hot pokers if necessary, to see it turn a corner in my favor. Now, I would never do that.

 

It's not a strong enough element in him that it borders on some kind of mental disorder (like sociopathy, where people manipulate everyone to get a desired outcome), not by a longshot. And I believe he has a moral compass, and a basic desire to do right. That's what makes it less clear-cut. Our discussions about conscience and the way he's trying to improve his life, and his devotion to his religious beliefs (which he has emblazoned on his back, as a shoulder-to-shoulder, neck-to-pelvis tattoo of the cross, along with a Luke verse) -- however far he has to go to be congruent with these ideals -- have impressed me with the sincerity of intent and effort, at least.

 

So, as a "love" he is out; but could I have such a person as a friend? Yes, with some cautions. How a person conducts themselves is pretty important to me, but I'm forgiving if I know the motivations are not malicious or 100% self-serving. We all have some issues, of some kind, and one reason I get along with lots of different types of people is that I can relate to a little bit in everyone. He's got these barbs; but he's got other glimmers that offset them, too.

 

I once overheard a conversation he was having on the phone, with what I gathered to be a local friend (I suspect male), and he was saying, "Yeah man, I'm here for you if you need to talk or anything about any of it. My motto is, give everyone basic respect. But watch out for you, because you really don't know who you can trust, ever." I think that captures his mindset in a nutshell. I could read a lot into that, which remains speculative. Some people see the world as untrustworthy because they're just burnt/shrewd; others, because they, themselves, are not trustworthy. What I took from that snippet, which was not affected and said in a private moment of candor, is that he believes in respectful behavior, even though he's jaded in some ways.

 

And so his consistency and delivery is what sucks. Plus, it's possible that he is simply moody (and his default is this brooding demeanor, which I've seen a lot) in the most unintentional of ways. As someone pointed out, what if some of his disappointing reactions to me owe to just his being somewhere else in his head, and tuned out? It's still not my idea of attentive or cool behavior, but I'm cautious about blowing reactions out of proportion without understanding the reasons for them.

 

He has an enormous number of friends, and is clearly socially well-stocked, some of whom, he labels as "close" (some of which are women, from where he works). So unless we were to assume he's a sociopath who charms everyone but has no real concern for anyone (which we've ruled out), he's got to be doing something right, as a person -- and returning affection, giving, and so forth. Being reciprocal in some way.

 

Basically, I'm just laying out some things that I wanted to clarify in my orientation going forward with him, even though, as I'll explain, forward movement is probably not going to happen at all.

 

But at least I hope that bit in red won't come up again.

 

To be continued after I'm less engrossed in the election battles playing out, ha....

[Klokwurk]

I've actually known 20-something men (including here on ENA) who had an EXCEPTIONAL affinity and sensitivity level for all the things I value (and huge surprise, none of them have been alpha males)

 

Talkin' bout me, right?

 

No, but seriously, ToV... He is a true and honest jerk for running out of the room. That simple act shows such a crazy amount of disrespect, it boils my potatoes that you are still thinking about him. You are wise as heck, so I am not worried about you at all.

 

Thank you for a very interesting read, by the way!

 

Peace.

[tiredofvampires]

Talkin' bout me, right?

 

No, but seriously, ToV... He is a true and honest jerk for running out of the room. That simple act shows such a crazy amount of disrespect, it boils my potatoes that you are still thinking about him. You are wise as heck, so I am not worried about you at all.

 

Thank you for a very interesting read, by the way!

 

Peace.

 

Aw, Klokwurk, I really do appreciate your taking the time to read it, and register your thoughts! Like I said, the male perspective here is in short supply. Plus, I enjoy your posts in general.

 

What's interesting to me is that there have been mixed views here among the women who have weighed in about what constitutes "disrespect", or whether it classifies as disrespect at all, what he did. While for men, it seems to be an accross-the-board no-brainer that he was disrespecting me.

 

Interesting feedback, and gender (perhaps age, too) differing pov's.

 

Some here have contended that he was "just being young and typically selfish," and since that's what young, thoughtless 20-something men do, I'd be in error to view this through the lens of being disrespected. The argument has been, I'd be foolish to try to make a cocker spaniel into a great dane. (Which seems a deterministic way of viewing him, i.e., that he simply can't help who he is and has no volition in how aware he can or should be of his actions and treatment of others.) I'm not the one to be the agent for change in another person, obviously...but nor do I think they're not accountable, especially as a grown-up, for their interactions.

 

Once you're talking about "selfish", it's a short step, really, to "disrespect," in my experience. How, indeed, do you separate selfish behavior and disrespectful behavior? I mean, you can have someone hog the last bit of pizza for themselves and call that selfish/greedy...not necessarily "disrespectful" as a go-to word...but doesn't respect MEAN that you are considering others? That you care about what they may want, what they may need, or feel? If you're selfish, isn't it really about disregard of others, and if you're disregarding people...how does that amount to respect?

 

Another, perhaps better analogy is littering. If you throw your trash on the ground, you're in essence saying, "I can't be bothered with the environment. IT DOESN'T MATTER TO ME, IT DOESN'T COUNT ENOUGH TO WARRANT MY ATTENTION." It's thoughtless, and careless, inconsiderate...but taken together, all those are a sign of disrespect. You've just revealed that you don't give a crap about the earth, by crapping on it with your empty, crumpled Sprite can. Because what matters to you, what you wouldn't want to crap on, you give attention and some sign of care to, and those are the hallmarks of respect.

 

You don't have to love, be in love with, or even admire a person you RESPECT, in the most fundamental of ways -- i.e., you just don't do things to crap on them.

 

Then the arguments here have been, well, he may not disrespect me as a whole person...just in a bedroom situation. And I'm still in the dark about that one.

 

I actually looked up the word "respect" and the dictionary says: "esteem for or a sense of worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability...the condition of being esteemed or honored." (emphasis mine)

 

Disrespect: "(to) regard or treat with contempt or rudeness."

 

So, when I was pulling off his shirt and he stood there, not facing me fully, not looking at me, but drinking his beer and saying in an almost bravado way, "Mmm, that's good"...when he pressed for sex even though he knew I was worried (and being old enough to be past high school sex ed, he DOES know that I'm at risk for at very least, pregnancy)...when I tried to explain my concern and he said to me in an irritated tone, "And you keep talking," to try to get me to drop it...by not touching me anywhere that would have made me feel cared about/considered (in that context, in that moment)...by trying to push my legs apart even as I said, "no" (unless that's the new "I really do want it" signal?)...and yes, when he left both nights in either extreme haste or turning his back literally on me...was that "esteeming", much less "honoring" me in any way? Was that not "treatment with rudeness"?

 

So it seems clear to me that he was disrespectful, by most well-accepted definitions of that.

 

This is not to say I didn't have choices to make at any and every step of the way; I did make them (for those who have suggested I am not taking responsibility; and I do not feel this is a blame game). I went forward even though some writing was on the wall (though it became more obvious over the course of the incidents; repeated info says more than on-time info.) But I've explained my reasons for those. Curiosity (that was huge) + lust. Feeling unable to weigh out the pros/cons in the moment, and even unsure of gut impressions, so just continuing to go with the flow. Feeling it hard to turn down such an unexpected compliment. Wanting to take advantage of an opportunity that I didn't feel would be coming my way any time soon, largely to prove to myself that I could still function at all (that being a more thorny and painful question for me than others, given my health issues.) Wanting to feel normal again. Wanting to be surrounded by and enveloped in male energy, and to feel again the element of close touch. Wanting to "live life a little" and enjoy a break from the usual self-protective prison I live in all the time. All these stacked up and on the balance, all together clearly were at odds with the part of me that felt this was compromising, as having a demonstration of respect went.

 

I could have stopped it at any moment and called his bluff (and it was at the tip of my lips more than once) -- saying, "You know, the vibe right now is kind of not doing it for me. I get that this isn't more than a bit of short-lived fun, but then let it be fun where I don't feel left out." But you know, once you have to say that...it's kind of shot. Once you have to ask for some things, it becomes self-negating. Plus...if I called his bluff that way, what are the chances he would have just said "forget it" and walked out, and I'd be left wondering, "Wow, was what I said THAT deterring?"

 

And that's probably also a reason I didn't speak up. I really didn't know what the "etiquette" was "supposed" to be. A huge part of me felt like it must be par for the course to be treated somewhat disrespectfully to some degree (as I said earlier in this thread, I have a hard time seeing casual sex in any honoring light). To what degree, I didn't know. I just felt that I'd have to put up a shield, and have a temporarily thick skin for it, as that was the nature of the beast. If you want to play in the sandbox, expect sand in your eye, in other words. I didn't know what was inherent to this situation, and what was him being gratuitously a jerk.

 

I've been in with jerks before. But this was so spectacular...that in a bizarre way, it was captivating.

 

So it's been really helpful to me where people have posted that this wasn't just necessarily "the nature of the beast" even though that is the risk of these situations -- but that IN HIS CASE, YES, HE WAS ACTUALLY BEING REALLY SUPER SHODDY, and beyond just ground rules for non-committal sex.

 

Klokwurk, the reason I was confused after he bolted out (the first time) was that I didn't know what to attribute it to. It felt horribly rude in the moment, and disrespectful...but then later when he told me he was "blown away", I wondered if it was some strange compliment. Like he was just suddenly no longer Mr. Hotshot, but Mr. "Wow, I'm a little freaked out at this lady, and kind of intimidated" (some men on this thread have said older women would be intimidating to them.) Which would be (if that played in), in a twisted way...sort of a compliment.

 

What do you think?

 

What do you make of the split between treating another lady (his ex, who seems to still be in his life -- see post#36) with respect as a woman, and me without it (outside of the obvious point that they have more history together)?

 

And maybe that part up top in bold, I'd be interested in your thoughts. If it's not too much of a bother.

 

(Of course, I'm directing my questions to anyone, not just Klokwurk.)

 

Lol, about "boiling your potatoes." Again, thanks for the vote of confidence. You may be less worried about me than I am, right now. lol It bugs me that I'm still thinking about him, too.

 

That this thread is still alive is testament to how much of a meteor into my rocky, cold planet he was.

[pl3asehelp]

Women put up with a lot of crap from men they shouldn't. Men know if too. An example is saying 'just being young and typically selfish'. Men are not special. They know it's not ok to be selfish ever at any age. Yet, they do it because women absolve them of responsibility for themselves (they let them get away with it).

[tiredofvampires]

The argument has been, I'd be foolish to try to make a cocker spaniel into a great dane. (Which seems a deterministic way of viewing him, i.e., that he simply can't help who he is and has no volition in how aware he can or should be of his actions and treatment of others.)

 

Or maybe that would be better said, "he can't be HELD to his treatment of others."

[Honey Pumpkin]

TOV, I had a kind of similar fling in May, where I ended up giving oral to a guy I'd had a friendship with. He was so nice afterwards, holding me and kissing my forehead and hair when I slept. I think this guy sounds so cold and all about him - it's just rude. I'm not into casual sex, but I think you met someone who lacked decency.

 

BUT - you also had an experience which exploded into your life, and that's to be cherished. Not him, but the experience of being rudely shaken awake and reminded that you are an attractive, desirable physical being. And that you crave physicality and touch. Maybe it's a sign to get more active and to open yourself up to the idea of putting yourself out there again. I know you have a difficult condition, but reading your story is like reading about a flower opening to the sun.

 

I think it's actually been a memorable experience, which is always good. And maybe it's a sign about what your body wants and craves. I don't know. You seem such a lovely person, maybe it's time to take more risks?

[tiredofvampires]

Women put up with a lot of crap from men they shouldn't. Men know if too. An example is saying 'just being young and typically selfish'. Men are not special. They know it's not ok to be selfish ever at any age. Yet, they do it because women absolve them of responsibility for themselves (they let them get away with it).

 

I agree with that.

 

I think that's why I've been conflicted here, in part. Because I wasn't sure that depriving myself of an experience (which I explained the motivations for, which DO carry and DID carry some positive effects) should have involved me not being able to stick up for myself, or ask for a little more of what I wanted to feel in the experience. Yet...that is what happened.

 

It was an exchange I didn't really see happening until it had been all happened.

[Miss Firecracker]

Hit & Run!

 

I knew there was a name for that. Urban Dictionary has some definitions that are pretty cool, but sadly I can't post them here.

[tiredofvampires]

BUT - you also had an experience which exploded into your life, and that's to be cherished. Not him, but the experience of being rudely shaken awake and reminded that you are an attractive, desirable physical being. And that you crave physicality and touch. Maybe it's a sign to get more active and to open yourself up to the idea of putting yourself out there again. I know you have a difficult condition, but reading your story is like reading about a flower opening to the sun.

 

I think it's actually been a memorable experience, which is always good. And maybe it's a sign about what your body wants and craves. I don't know. You seem such a lovely person, maybe it's time to take more risks?

 

HP, what a sweet post. Kind of choked me up, actually. You get it. And not parenthetically, thank you to the others who have also expressed these sentiments. It feels poetic, the way you said that. And that's how this whole thing feels to me. It's not a romance, it's not casual sex...it's an identity issue/question, really. Flowers opening to the sun...against darkly fettered iron prisons, is how this plays out within me.

 

With your friend, that you had the fling with...did you continue to be friends? If so, was there any "weirdness" after that, a suggestion of more, the door open to having a consummate experience (sex and the works?) Or did it just end there, if you don't mind my asking?

 

One of the things I didn't expect from this experience was noticing the thought, "Well, at least if this guy doesn't care about me and leaves, it'd be nothing I couldn't have anticipated. If I hold out for someone who really cares for me and gives me what I'm really wanting, then the despair I'll feel if I'm not good enough for him -- sexually or otherwise -- will be far, far worse."

 

And now, I realize I've entered upon some somewhat more commonly-wrought reasonings why people don't commit, are scared of intimacy, blah blah blah. It's why a lot of people choose NSA sex as a rule. Fear of rejection.

 

Having said that, I need to very vehemently add that this thought process feels very new to me, and unlike me. It's totally alien. And I'm capable of having a deep, emotional bond. It's what I seek, have always sought. I have been nothing but stalwart in biding my time for the right person all these years. The incidents that I'd call flashes in the pan (rare, against a backdrop of LTRs as my usual MO) were spontaneously entered upon and then aborted because there was just not that much traction, I could see we weren't meshing well enough, and I realized there was no future. As mentioned before, I'm about romance -- meaning, holding out for something enduring and weathered. For me, that would be complete with a person who accepts me, accepts these physical challenges I contend with, and who knows it all but still wants to stay.

 

Most of my breakups before have involved other incompatibilities, and weren't directly related to my health. But a few relationships (the shorter ones) did involve levels of strain or outright conflict regarding my situation (for example, my last ex taunted me at one point about being a "special needs girl" when he was resenting some other stuff.) When I was in my 20's, I was with a heartthrob who was a professional dancer (as in, theatrical dance, not Chippendale's, haha.) And once during sex, he made a comment that was very disheartening about my limited range of motion in my hips that made me feel really inadequate. That was so many years ago, but it was burned into my brain like a branding iron.

 

I wouldn't say I don't value or respect myself. But the qualifiers and road to full self-acceptance...I admit I still have a long way to go.

 

I've had some more affirming experiences...but since the last 2, 3 years have been worse for me (in a Sahara of validation), I've sort of curled up onto this cocoon of self-protection and avoidance of men in general.

 

And not just for physical reasons. This condition has affected my ability to work, to prove myself in that sphere. I've done a lot of things to stay active and participate in activities that are work-like (different projects I'm committed to), and I've worked at the rate I can, when I can (freelancing stuff), but it doesn't all add up to a professional identity that is the first thing guys ask about at social gatherings, in potential dating situations, first-meets, etc. Even if a guy were to look past it at first, I have grave fears about financial inequity in the relationship, and how that would create an unhealthy dynamic. This is so not "sex and romance" material...but in a way, it is. Because how I see myself sexually and physically as a desirable partner (certainly, one who can hold her own in a dater's market) bleeds out into a catastrophic puddle of self-doubt about all the rest.

 

I simply want to be the best partner anyone could hope for, in all ways. To do justice to the man I'm with, and to know that he feels happy with what he's getting out of being with me. And I feel I'd be falling short on so many counts, that none of the good things I feel I bring to the table could overcome them, or I'd be feeling like I continually have to compensate for my weaknesses.

 

But the sexual piece is so fundamental (and I'm an extremely sexual person, with all of this garbage removed from the picture) that it somehow colors everything from there. Maybe because in that first gaze at someone you like, that you feel drawn to, sexuality is already implied. And with that, then intimacy. And then with that, all that is required of one to make a relationship last, even though difficulties.

 

So my mind just shuts this whole train down.

 

I'm on another forum (only very recently found it) with women who share some of the same health issues, and boy oh boy, is it a mournful place to be. Women whose boyfriends have finally announced that they need "more", or feel they can't do *this* anymore. Husbands who have cheated, or grown distant. New lovers who aren't as patient as they said they would be, or are fostering unrealistic hopes of total cures. Old boyfriends who have lost their boners over time, or started to put too much pressure on. People who have been left after 15 years of dealing with ups and downs. So the fear of this impacting me, and devastating me, is REAL. These things are happening. And a lot of these women have said they've just decided to grieve by realizing they are not going to put themselves out there anymore, and to just take care of their health without worrying how it's going to impact someone else.

 

Frankly, it's so depressing being on that forum, I can only spend little snatches of time there. Which was surprising to me, since I've been needing a support group of peers with like problems, and that's been missing. Now that I have one...I'm grateful for it, and to know I'm "not alone" there...but the population is composed entirely of women (so it's not balanced; and it's a small community), and it feels like the blind leading the blind. It just doesn't feel like being on ENA, where people from all walks and perspectives are sharing their thoughts from outside this perspective I'm having. Just having someone feeling as crummy as I do doesn't take me a step higher or give me a bigger view. (that's not to put down all the uplifting posts and the brave women on that site, who I am truly blessed to have found.)

 

I think after my last relationship, and with the recent upheavals and torques in my life (which have put my health on the downswing, not the upswing, which is what I'd hoped for in returning to dating)...I'm just more afraid than ever of this:

 

maybe it's time to take more risks

 

Yet, I think you may be right. You and a few others (Cap, Silverbirch, IAG, etc.)...I feel that this did, in fact, have some "awakening" power. After these events with him, I went out to a party/house concert, which I hadn't gone to in a while (my entire social life and networking has atrophied, as part of the fallout; not just dating). I wore one of my favorite outfits -- with my favorite colors, dark reds and golds. I felt good looking at myself in the mirror, for a change. I went out feeling sexual, and sexy, and it felt grand. It scared me. It scared me to feel that I could toy with the idea that I could be looked at again. That I had touched someone "that way" only days ago, and that I could do it again. Maybe. While I was at the party (which was crazy good, and fun, with great music, even though I was struggling with some of my usual symptoms, pain and fatigue), which was a bit of a more mature, seasoned crowd, an older woman joked with me about the handsome cellist of the band (who looked to me to be in his early 30's), and how maybe since they want some tips of places to visit while in our locale (they're touring, but in small venues), I could go up to him and strike up a conversation. HINT HINT, WINK WINK. I laughed, and I don't remember what I said after that, but somehow we started trying to guess his age and marital status, and in the mix, she told me I looked like I was roughly 28 years old. I've been told I look younger than my age before, but not so recently. And if anything, I've had some feedback that makes me think with the new grey hairs, I'm looking at very LEAST my age. I think the lighting was dim enough she didn't see the silver hair, but needless to say, it just compounded my feeling very good that evening in a way that I haven't felt in a long, long time.

 

I went from feeling half dead and seriously depressed about a new twist my doctor discovered and my current prognosis...to feeling like I would possibly defy the lot of them, and magically create a whole new ending for myself.

 

So yes...there is a part of me that feels he woke something up. I want to do something with that...but all the old feelings are still there, and with him gone now (still have to post about how that went down), I feel...I could easily regress.

 

To the degree that this guy was boorish...maybe not even decent to me in the sack...is the degree to which I didn't have to risk being known. And that is a new one for me. That's never been a part of my mentality. Ever. It took someone as close as a bedroom away for many months of non-threatening friendly interchange, but far as an emotional Pluto, to pull it off. The co-existing pieces of circumstance made it even thinkable to me, whereas some hotshot in a bar or wherever else would have been off my radar.

 

I feel grateful to him, in a way. As the catalyst that we're talking about. So how can I not feel an abiding affection and wistfulness for someone who did something for me like this, even though it's mixed up with indignation, disapproval, and disappointment?

 

I guess what I'm feeling is that being with him was confirmation/affirmation of something, but I'm still to concerned that that would not translate well into the demands, expectations, and shared investment of a relationship.

[Wayfara]

I am not a man but I hope you won't mind me chiming in some thoughts anyway.

 

I also don't know how the same traits in me that he would love in her (emotional softness as I sensed it, sweetness, nurturing qualities) would bring disrespect for ME, if these are qualities he values. That doesn't compute.

 

I have a hard time not internalizing that as a function of something unlovable about me.

 

I think respect can be compartmentalized as penelope13 says. You can recognize someone as intelligent but consider them a jerk, respecting their intelligence but not their morals, it is possible that he respects your conversations but not your sexuality. I also believe respect can both be a feeling and an action and that these don't always go together. I think you can respect someone (as in recognizing their value) and still be disrespectful to them in action. I think love can be divided like that too, cheating is an deplorable act but a cheater can still love his wife, a man can also hate his wife but not cheat. It is the same with respect, one can think someone isn't worthy of respect yet be respectful to them. What he did to you was very disrespectful and I don't blame you for being angry, I would have been too, but I don't think it has to reflect disrespectful feelings toward you although it could be that way. In my opinion though he's a jerk regardless of the feelings behind.

 

Playing with the idea he thinks lowly of you I still don't think that has to reflect badly on you. Jerks think and do mean things to nice people, it doesn't mean the victims did anything to deserve it or are unlovable. You point out he has it in him to be nice. Most jerks have it in them to be nice, rarely is someone 100% a jerk, even Hitler loved animals. You ask how the same behavior can result in two different treatments. To a Hitler a sweet dog might have made him want to pat it while a sweet Jewish child might have been sent to the gas chamber, the reason might not be logical. You said this guy wanted to marry this girl, disrespecting her would probably decrease his chance of marrying her but with you he had nothing to lose by being selfish and disrespectful, he wouldn't see you again after you moved out.

 

I simply want to be the best partner anyone could hope for, in all ways. To do justice to the man I'm with, and to know that he feels happy with what he's getting out of being with me. And I feel I'd be falling short on so many counts, that none of the good things I feel I bring to the table could overcome them, or I'd be feeling like I continually have to compensate for my weaknesses.

 

All people fall short in some way or the other, perfection doesn't exist. If a man in wheel chair had a woman falling for him I don't think she would see his disability as hindrance to her happiness, it would make certain activities harder but I don't think it would make her enjoy his company less, his humor, morals and mind wouldn't be diminished by him sitting in a wheel chair and she would feel lucky to have him despite his limits.

[Honey Pumpkin]

Thanks TOV

 

Well, it turned into a fling. Long distance, and meeting up every month or so. We got tangled up in emotions eventually, because it felt that such an intense physical relationship should be about love, and I don't think it is. It's probably in the process of ending. However...I cannot regret it because it was what I needed. I have a lot of body issues, I have lost a huge amount of weight over the last two years and I am very very self conscious about my body. Having a physical relationship with a very attractive man who is super fit did something for me, for my self-esteem and confidence. Because he is very enthusiastic physically. Like you, I started to realise that while this may not work out, maybe just maybe there were other options for me.

 

So I understand about not regretting something, because it's what you needed on an emotional level. For me, it taught me a lot about honesty. I tell him what I want, and what he wants. I want raw sex, but also hand holding, dinner, lots of affection. So after a couple of months, I learned to be very upfront and tell him what I want. He was always upfront about what he wanted And guess what? I did get those needs met. It taught me to be less of a doormat, that it's okay to say what you want.

 

It's not going to end well, I think. BUT...I even welcome the pain, because I was in a 'safe' cocoon where I didn't let anyone in. I've realised the issues I need to work on emotionally, but it's been like an electric shock in my life. So I cannot regret it, the pain and the angst is worth it. I have a feeling of optimism about the future.

 

So that's why your post resonated with me. I'm 43, with huge body issues, and I had shut down emotionally and physically. The last six months have been difficult and a roller coaster and painful. But I feel alive and forced to think about what do *I* actually want. I've made lots of positive changes in my life, I've joined a gym, got a promotion at work, done lots of things outside work. I've realised that I need to take risks and that although my fling is now hurting me, it was worth it to me.

 

The other last thing I would say - I had a lot of advice from people which didn't help. Because it was from a perspective of people who were in relationships, and were telling me how to manage a relationship, how to walk away etc. I struggled with this, because like you, I think (hope that's not too presumptuous), the experience has been incredible for me. It's jolted me back into the real world and made me realise that I'd rather the pain than a safe blanket. So I cannot regret it, even though in many ways he's not treated me well (being detached, letting me down). But the last six months has really changed my life and my outlook. I'd rather have the pain than not have had the experience.

 

The one last thing I would say is that my guy turned out to be a pretty decent guy in many ways. He has issues of his own, but he's never been mean or unkind about me physically, which would have damaged me. He's very enthusiastic and appreciative, which let me relax. But it turned out that I did need to tell him what I wanted - i.e. reciprocal oral sex etc. I think the guy you were with does not sound 'safe' in that respect.

 

I'd write more but I have to go to work. I just wanted to say that I have a feeling we have experienced somewhat similar emotions - and you know what? It's okay. It's not conventional or what a young woman in her 20s may want, but it's okay. And the impact it has had on your life is profound, even the anguish and the angst. It's more than okay, it's positive, because it's been like a shock in your life. I suppose the key is what we do with that next...

[ProtestTheHero]

I've been doing case research for a while, got bored, hopped on the forum, and saw this thread. Since I'm so late to the game I feel like an appellate judge dealing with principles instead of factual outcomes, lol, but I will post because I (respectfully) feel that many people have simplified the issue in calling this guy a selfish douche.

 

It is especially important for me to say that I'm not trying to pin a person's viewpoint to any particular characterization, so my post is directed at no one in particular besides TOV.

 

I don't think that this guy can be painted as some incredibly selfish jerk. I have been in this situation enough (minus being scathingly hot) that I can put myself in those shoes. Proximity forces a certain surface level interaction, the interactions inevitably become a little bit deeper because you see each other so often, and a surprising understanding of one another develops when that wasn't really the intent at the outset. Intense attraction has a tangibly electric feel that most people who are socially aware notice, and I don't doubt that he probably ascertained that you were into him on that level. Even if he was a complete moron, guys this attractive are like broken clocks who are always right because they err on the side of arrogance and the arrogance is generally well-founded. Yet, he didn't pounce right away. In his mind he probably could have made a move long before he chose to but he didn't. Why? Probably because of the things you mentioned -- residual feelings for another girl, no real need to crap where he eats (so to speak) when he could just as easily find someone outside of his living arrangement, the age difference, the conversations, etc. Most of the true douches that I know do not have the patience to cultivate anything beyond what is necessary to determine whether the girl is attracted to them, and once they know the answer they force her hand and move on.

 

I think at the end of the day these sorts of issues arise from radically different views on things like sex and life. This guy doesn't view sex, in and of itself, as a big deal. In what way does he need to be validated? What flaws does he hope this new person won't notice? What historical context does a new partner need to understand how he views himself as a viable sexual being? He doesn't have any of those concerns, and when those of us who do try to explain them to people that don't, it's a lot like trying to tell a dog that it should be ashamed of being naked. It's not even conceptually significant because it's never come up and probably never will. Therefore, sex is not something that requires any particular associated emotion aside from consent and desire. Is this wrong? No. It's not a reflection of love, care, respect, or anything like that. Would anyone think about love, care, and respect if took them out for ice cream? No. Why? Because it's no big deal, and when there's never been a reason, driven by insecurity or otherwise, to codify sex as anything other than a manifestation of consent and lust then why would you all of a sudden change for one person?

 

I can reconcile that with the way he treated his high school sweetheart. Compassion/care isn't a prerequisite for sex in his mind, but he has the capacity to feel those things for someone who has earned those feelings with time. She did so he treated her like a goddess. You have a harder time separating compassion/care from sex...you inherently care about the people you have sex with. That is your personality, and that is neither right or wrong, it's just you. For him, it's probably just consent, desire, and respect (in the form of a basic understanding). A small percentage of women have accused me of being "cold" like this at times, but they knew the arrangement ahead of time (as you did), they were headstrong (as you are), and I respected their own assessment of their ability to handle this arrangement. I think your personality and your values are far too codified for you to be really "vulnerable" in this situation; he was at the right place at the right term in terms of you being able to meet this possibility with curiosity instead of flat rejection. That doesn't make you vulnerable, IMO. The longer I've been removed from high school the more willing I've been to trust women. That's certainly a change from my past pattern of behavior, but it's a product of the way circumstances and context can change our outlook at various points in our lives. So, I don't think the fact that this type of sexual episode is outside of your SOP necessarily indicates that it was a product of your vulnerability. Sometimes we're just bored of the status quo and things we don't expect become water to our deserts.

 

He didn't place a whole lot of weight on performance, rapport, or your empowerment because at the end of the day you are an asterisk to all of this other stuff going on. I don't think that this makes him an ass unless he led you to believe that a future with him was a real possibility, and you said you knew that this wouldn't happen. Respect takes a different form in these types of sexual relationships. Respect here equals lack of paternalism. You take her for her word that she's fine with the arrangement until she says otherwise and you don't read between the lines.

 

If you aren't cool with this particular arrangement or you were at the outset until it shifted in an undesirable way then you should always express that. Shushing you is corny and he shouldn't have done it. He should have been willing to listen, but at the same time he's not going to think it was that important if you just drop the issue.

 

I would also say that you should never write a letter to a guy in this circumstance, ever. That is a general rule that applies to every fringe-ONS/FWB circumstance like this. If you write him a letter browbeating him for not treating you in the way you never communicated that you wanted, it's hard to take a lesson from that. I'm going to chalk that up to her being unclear and not take anything from it. If the letter is designed to be educational, especially about STDs, I'd say that's probably an even bigger waste of time because he's not ignorant of those issues -- he just doesn't care. I think that's probably as effective as walking up to a smoker in 2012 and telling them cigs are bad for them -- they know.

 

I agree with whoever said that you should take more risks. I think the feeling of being alive that you experienced is the important takeaway, and it was a product of a calculated risk.

[leonardo5]

I’ve been following this story from the starting. I usually read a lot from here though rarely I post, due to my writing English skill is quite limited.

But I appreciate the abundant material provided in this thread, since I besides amusing and learning about the life in general, I have the plus to learn new words and expressions that later I try to use when I want to write a little as right now.

The fact that I dare to write is because I want to add my two cents in this thread.

I lost my virginity when I was 18 with a woman in his 30’s. Needless to say I was very nervous and now, as an adult, I’m shocked and ashamed each time that I remember how awkward and inexpert I was then.

I guess she probably left with similar feelings afterward than you felt with this guy. Though the main difference respects your experience was because it was full sex (in the sense there was penetration) but there were no foreplay, no touching, no oral (at that time it was unthinkable) from me. So now I realize how poor and selfish my performance was.

However what counts on my side was the fact I was very very concerned and worried to do the main act that forgot any other activities as important as this (if not more).

Anyway, despite many years have passed by, I have a vivid remind of each detail of that encounter and I’m grateful towards her though she doesn’t know this.

[PaintWithLight]

So to summarize.... His idea of "giving you the full treatment" was to lay back with his arm over his eyes as you pleasured him??? ToV....Why are you trying to turn this toad into a prince??