How to Deal with a Curve Ball I NEVER Saw Coming (death by puns)

[tiredofvampires]

Mines, I really, really got a lot out of this personal account, as sharp contrast between your guy and "mine". Thank you for providing this counterpoint of real, lived experience!!

 

It really puts things into perspective.

 

I've read a number of your posts, and threads, and gather that you're one of those women who can enjoy "sex just for sex" without the emotional ties or a sense of futurity. So your weighing in on this thread about this F buddy of yours is what was needed.

 

I have never had an arrangement which was simply an F buddy/hook-up/booty call type thing -- and you're right, FWB is a different thing (too many people lump them together.) But there are some people here who have made the point that somehow, if you're just having sex for the sake of itself, you've got to accept that some cold distance will be there. So you're here proving that's not the case.

 

I think I've learned (as I said a few posts ago) that I can't separate sensuality from sexuality. That for me, if my whole body is a sex organ, it's really cutting out the heart of it to make it just about one act and minimal touching. I would imagine that's the case for nearly ALL women.

 

Someone earlier in this thread said something like this (actually a few people did) -- that this is a "worst case scenario" of casual sex, that I've experienced. It just goes to show how many different "colors" and "shades" of casual sex there are. I think a lot of people make judgments about it based on their own models and experiences (as happens with subjects non-sexually related), and that translates into thinking that's the way it must be for others, or the way it's "supposed" to be.

 

But if it's okay, I have a kind of odd couple of questions for you, if you are up to it. Don't feel like you have to answer them.

 

1. On a scale of 1-10, 1 being the worst sex you've had and 10 being the best, how does such an F buddy arrangement like this (which is as you describe it) stack up against sex with a partner you love, are in love with, and have a deep emotional connection to?

 

2. On a scale of 1-10, 1 being "the worst experiences I've ever had in my life" and 10 being "the best experiences I've ever had in my life" (I know, HUGE gap there, so just don't overthink it) -- how does noncommittal sex with an F buddy stack up in the rating of life experiences?

 

The whole thing is so hard for me to imagine. Not really because I can't imagine wanting someone to have sex with that I don't want a relationship with, but because I can't imagine calling someone just to make a sex appointment. Like you make time in your schedule to see your doctor, you make time in your schedule to make sure your horniness gets fixed. Lol, I mean no disrespect, it's just...how does that work? Excuse me naivete on this whole thing.

 

I just can't imagine how I'd get turned on to someone without at least feeling we can talk with a lot of rapport on a number of subjects, and once that intellectual fire is there, what would make me not want to enjoy that outside the bedroom? How does that work for you? Because that's why I can't see myself with this guy purely as a boytoy, even if he had been a lot more considerate, affectionate, and demonstrative in the bedroom. I didn't see him as relationship material, but nor did I see his mind and our enjoyment of eachother's company as exclusive to the bedroom. I think that would make me feel like I'm having to compartmentalize in a way that, taking a person as a whole person, seems at odds with.

[tiredofvampires]

I would also say that you should never write a letter to a guy in this circumstance, ever. That is a general rule that applies to every fringe-ONS/FWB circumstance like this. If you write him a letter browbeating him for not treating you in the way you never communicated that you wanted, it's hard to take a lesson from that. I'm going to chalk that up to her being unclear and not take anything from it. If the letter is designed to be educational, especially about STDs, I'd say that's probably an even bigger waste of time because he's not ignorant of those issues -- he just doesn't care. I think that's probably as effective as walking up to a smoker in 2012 and telling them cigs are bad for them -- they know.

 

I'm far behind in my responses to your posts, PTH, but I'm slowly catching up. There's more than you could possibly want to hear, lol. If you're even still following along.

 

But I wanted to say that I can see your points here. I'm glad I didn't give him a note, though admittedly, that was mostly because I was not in a situation where it would be my only means of saying goodbye. If I had to vacate the premises and give back my keys, and he hadn't shown up, I would have found myself in a terribly unpleasant dilemma, as giving him a note was in my mind far from ideal. But so was leaving without a trace, cold.

 

I would not have browbeaten him, though. I believe he was in full command of knowing (and you say yourself the man probably has a good sense of social cues) what I wanted. This thread should make clear that both verbally and non, what I wanted was clear. And as you can see, he wasn't listening, and didn't care, so my communicating to him/being clear was not at issue. But I would not have "browbeaten" him anyway because that just comes off as others have said, "a woman scorned." And that's pathetic, not sympathetic.

 

I'm not sure I agree about the STDs part. All you have to do is look on this forum to see the IMMENSE ignorance that abounds around the subject of STD's and sexual health/facts in general. I'm nearly 100% positive (based on other discussions we had about other medically well-known things, as well as just knowing guys like him) that if I asked him, "Do you know what HPV is?" he'd say, "huh?" Even women don't know what it is (especially young women), and it's more of a woman's problem, since it causes cancerous changes in the cervix more often than the penis. When I told him I was clean and wanted to stay that way, he was a bit offended that I thought I could get something from him, saying "if I'm not clean, why are you putting your mouth on my d/k?" Do YOU know what a cervix is? If so, you're ahead of the game, as a guy. For as often as he's bumped up into one, I don't think he'd have a clue. I also think he's just vain enough, as well as self-absorbed about his future enough, that it's not a question of apathy. I think like many young men, he's tried his luck a number of times, doesn't have sores or stinging when he urinates, and therefore assumes he's fine. A ton of guys say, "I'm clean" and sincerely think they are without being tested. When you tell them what is needed to ascertain their STD status, they've never heard of certain germs or diseases and are genuinely freaked out to know it's that easy to catch them, or that you can catch them in this or that way. So there's a big lack of education out there.

 

It's more obscure information to the masses than smoking dangers, by far. Also, I think there's a good amount of denial that goes on.

 

Someone who wants to have unprotected sex may be working far more on impulse (+ hubris) than on lack of concern. Those are two different things and I think it was the former with him, not the latter.

 

But I wrote a few handwritten drafts of a note to him, just to see how I felt about it, and if it came down to it. And no matter how I spun it, the STD bit sounded ridiculously pedantic.

 

In fact, it felt as though no matter how I put any of it, it all sounded either patronizing, pedantic, or pathetic. So I was really thinking along the lines of what you said -- that I should just drop the idea flatly.

 

My final conclusion on the note was that it didn't matter what I left behind, because however he chose to think of me was out of my hands. That I know myself enough to know my motives; and that his spin doesn't have to be my truth. And, that the best victory is not needing to be victorious. As long as my intent is clear to me, making a fool of myself with someone who I don't count to is meaningless, isn't it? So whatever I would say, would not matter. That freed me.

 

Nevertheless, I decided to try for some happy medium. The art of saying things as best they can be said, however imperfect words can be.

 

Just for shiz and giggles (feel free!), I didn't think I'd do this, but for the sake of the comprehensiveness of this thread, I will transcribe exactly what I wrote longhand and had ready in my spiralbound notebook. I decided to wait until the last minute I had to tear it out and leave it for him. Thank goodness fate intervened and it wasn't necessary to even consider it. So as it remains, in my notebook, my final draft:

 

*****

 

"oh's no's! another note!....." [this references the fact that I had given him a note about legal issues earlier, and our landlady had a habit of note-giving that was really annoying]

 

Okay, I just wanted to say a coupla things, _________. Since "guys don't talk," this is my compromise.

 

I told you you're a gentleman more than once.

 

Be a gentleman everywhere. Not just on the outside, but on the inside. Outside of doors...and behind closed ones. With everyone.

The most important part of a Man is his INTEGRITY.

 

Good genes are easy -- you were born with them. Integrity is a lifelong project of hard effort. So you're ahead of the game if you start early. Integrity is the only thing that's left when the rest fades.

 

Second thing: even though, yeah, women are biologically wired and socialized to verbalize more, when we all grow up, communication is not a "girl thing" -- it's a HUMAN thing. Take my word for it -- if you don't got COMMUNICATION, in any relationship, you don't got N O T H I N G. Guys definitely got the short end on that one, cuz it's not taught. But you gotta learn it anyways, or every relationship will go south.

 

So now, you can give me totally unsolicited tips on which muscle groups I need to work most, and we'll be even steven.

 

Take care hun,

{ToV}

XO

 

****

 

So, no a lecture about STDs. No browbeating about what he did wrong. I kept it VERY short, which for me, was a victory worth submitting in and of itself, lmao.

 

Believe it or not, if I gave him this note, I would have felt that I'd in good faith put out some key take-away thoughts for him to ponder. He could take them or leave them, but if at any point in his life they might ring a bell, he would have heard it first here.

 

And that was coming from a pure place, I can say truthfully.

 

Any critiques are welcome. haha

[tiredofvampires]

And this. Even though this seems somewhat moot now, since I don't think we will have any more contact, I wanted to ask --

 

I think at the end of the day he's probably going to try to divorce himself from the awkwardness of all of this. I don't think telling him you cared about him is going to help him in that process, lol, but at the same time your friend is right -- that was a very TOV thing to do and it doesn't surprise me. Again, it was neither right or wrong to say it to him, but I do think that pretty much closed the door to continuing whatever it was you had. You can't have pseudo-ONS sex after one person tells the other that they care about them, and it's probably just as hard to go out and see a movie and eat a pizza or something, too.

 

Basically, what you're saying is that he may have wanted to make an attempt to contact me after we moved, had I not said that? That if he might have, that alone would have changed his mind?

 

And what are you saying at the end? That it's hard to go to a movie and eat pizza with someone who said they care about you, within the context you might never see them again??

 

There was this one convo we were having (he, the other roomie, and I) where we were talking about our differing priorities in finding a place together. This was when we were really committed to it happening, or so it seemed. And I expressed the thought that I may be holding them back from finding a place quickly, because I have to be more choosey about some of the things I'm looking for in a place. Then he said very boldly, "If one of us is not happy with a certain place, we just won't get it. We want a place we can ALL be happy with. WE LIKE YOU. So we're not going to get a place that's not right for one of us. SO JUST BE YOURSELF, who you are as a person WE LIKE, just make sure you speak up if you don't like something so that we don't decide on it and then you're freaking out because something isn't working for you." I was mighty startled at such a blunt statement...

 

And I guess in that same vein, I said, "I really do care about you." It was like, "if anything is to be gotten out of this, know you have someone who started off as your friend, and would serve as one in the future, whatever else weirdness went on."

 

And that's enough for someone to leave skidmarks?

 

One final thing on this -- how do you figure even if I didn't say any such thing, and we became FWB's (big if, but that’s no longer ONS sex, or "pseudo-ONS sex" -- it's Friends With Benefits, aka your buddy that you get nekked with from time to time), it would make sense to go about sharing various aspects and events of our lives, while either not caring or pretending not to?

 

The kind of sex you describe -- devoid of virtually all feeling for someone and total indifference -- inherently lacks the ability to become a FWB situation, seems to me. Because friends CARE. While I rarely tell my friends that in so many words, let alone routinely....when you're about to walk out of their lives forever, and there has been some uncomfortably questionable interaction, why should that be so verboten?

[penelope13]

A few random thoughts:

 

 

SO JUST BE YOURSELF, who you are as a person WE LIKE, just make sure you speak up if you don't like something so that we don't decide on it and then you're freaking out because something isn't working for you.

 

Admittedly, I don't know the full context and background of the conversation nor your whole interaction. But I think this one sentence expresses quite clearly what kind of person he is when you boil it down to the bare minimum and how he sees you in some ways:

a) you can't state it more clearly than the first underlined part: he expects direct communication, because that's the way he is. Simple statements as 'I want/like this, but not this.'

b) his worry wasn't that you would be unhappy, but mainly that you would freak out. Interesting choice of expression, don't you think?

 

As to the whole "I care about you comment" and why you said it. I'm quite sure, unlike you, he didn't perceive the saying good bye as a monumental, epic event in his (or your life), but just one of those things that happen, while for you it seemed to signify a defining life moment. Thus the context for each of you were different and thus the interpretations can be hugely different.

 

 

----

About your note: I'm not sure if you are going to appreciate/like my following interpretation, but since you put it there and asked for comments, I will, in a rather 'brutal' way - but there is a purpose to my madness that I will tell you afterwards.

 

Having read this thread I know what you were trying to say (at least partially, I'm sure there are aspects you have kept to yourself), however I'm just going to give you ONE possible way of how this note reads from the perspective of the one receiving the note.

 

- you are trying to sandwich your message between humor to 'lesson the blow'.

- considering that in your second part you are stressing the fact that gender shouldn't play a role when it comes to communication styles, you are loading an awful lot of gender stereotypes into the first part.

-

Be a gentleman everywhere. Not just on the outside, but on the inside. Outside of doors...and behind closed ones. With everyone

-this is anything but being direct with your communication. You are not at all saying what you want to say, but wrapping it into something than can easily be taken as condescending or preachy.

-

The most important part of a Man is his INTEGRITY

. -What the hell????!!!. - You are oh-not-so-subtly telling me I'm not a person with integrity, and that I need to work on it as well as implying that it's a 'man versus woman thing'. Humans should try to act with integrity. Again, instead of telling me what is on your mind directly, which actions/words of mine specifically you are calling into question, you are throwing ill disguised insults at me wrapped into seemingly benevolent expressions I would have expected to hear from my grandmother. I don't consider someone having INTEGRITY if they can't express directly what they want and need, but then reserve the rights for becoming upset of not having their wants and needs met.

- in your second paragraph you want to imply how women are so much better at communicating, yet you failed entirely to actually tell me what this note is really about.

 

----

 

The reason I chose a rather harsh (but not necessarily unlikely interpretation) of your note is to show you, that while you are trying to say one thing, it can be easily misunderstood and taken in another way. When you write something, you always seem to have the whole depth of your reasoning in the back of your mind of why YOU chose a certain word, a certain phrase and probably think somehow that transcends into what you write and say, especially for people who know you a bit. - However, that's of course never true. Thus the more direct you are with saying what you want, the easier it will be for you to be understood.

 

And you want to be understood. I think that is a big thing for you. You seem to have this need to know/feel that the other person understands all the why's and how's of your thinking and acting, interpretations, where your feelings come from etc. You seem to strive to reach a point in your interaction with people where the other person has a light bulb moment and says 'oh wow, now I get it, this is the only possible way she could have said/done this, she is so right'.

 

The bitter truths is, noone can ever understand the full depth of your meaning of anything. Sure with time, some people will have some inkling, but this 'all encompassing understanding' is quite an impossibility. It's not a matter of using enough words, expressions. It simply is a matter of being 2 different human beings. No matter to which lengths someone would go to try to explain how it feels like to give birth, I will never have a light bulb moment of 'oh wow that's how it feels' until I'll be pushing out my own child.

 

The good news however is (as you actually said yourself): it's NOT important for others to understand you in depths for you to have successful and happy interactions with people. However, you can make it a lot easier for yourself by being actually more direct of what you are trying to express.

 

You have a wonderful way of expressing yourself, a rich vocabulary and you derive a lot of pleasure, pride and satisfaction from it. Yet, it is equally a skill to express a complicated matter in a few words/sentences. Sometimes it seems you feel it's beneath you to say something directly without giving it a 'verbal upgrade'. But as with most things, context, purpose, and target audience often require adjusting the way you deliver a message. In my professional life, I have to give presentations on a regular basis. You would think that once I have given a certain presentation that it would be easy to give again later. Nothing could be further from the truth. Although the content doesn't change, I might be given a 5min slot versus a 1 hour slot. Or I could be talking to colleagues rather than general public. All of these changing contexts and audiences require me to overhaul my slides.

 

Maybe it's making you feel vulnerable by being direct? I don't know. But I would recommend to you, to pick something you care about and try to express it in 3 different ways (you could even use that note) of different lengths and by trying to imagine 3 different scenarios as an exercise.

 

Don't understand my post of a critic, it's actually meant as help. When I was younger, it was sooo important for me that people would understand me, that they knew where I was coming from. Thus I can relate to you. However I made the realization that just because I want that, doesn't mean that everyone else wants that kind of exchange, nor do people want to invest the time and energy necessary - nor is it actually really important that people understand where I am coming from, as long as they are treating me in the way I want to be treated. That is what is important. They don't have to agree/understand (if they don't agree they are free not to interact with me), but if they want an interaction with my, they need to accept my respectful boundaries. At the same time it's MY job to make sure I express what my needs and wants are in a manner that the other person can relate to.

[tiredofvampires]

Thanks for your unsparing critical analysis, Penelope. I'm okay with "harsh" critiques, as that's how I was trained (in the arts, and in art school, be prepared for people to blast your work.)

 

I'd like to add something that I didn't add in the post containing that letter. I tried, but the edit window had closed and I didn't think it was important enough to try to tack on afterwards. But maybe it is.

 

I agree with you that parts (if not all) of the letter could come off as condescending and preachy. I said that in my post as well. That I wrote it several times, in several ways (so in fact, I already undertook your advice here, because that's writers do) -- and quite honestly, in the end, none of it was sounding good. As I said, whatever I wrote came out sounding semi or totally lame to me. So I realized that unless I was some genius (and I'm not), I don't think I could pull off my intent without it sounding lame. I like to take up the challenge that anything can be said properly, if done well (that may not be true -- sometimes silence may be the only good way of saying something.) So what I penned was as close as I could get to the intent, in the "voice" I would have used, in person, face-to-face, if he'd given me the opportunity. And even then, I gave myself the option of waiting until the time to leave it for him and then deciding against it. So I wasn't even sure I'd go through with it, and actually the more time I had to mull it over, the less inclined I was (I think you probably know this from your own professional life, that what sounds good at the time doesn't sound as good later; or vice versa. And I didn't have much time to "sleep on this", we are talking about hours to let the thing "gel").

 

I also agree with you that I have a desire to be understood, and that is important to me. However, understanding "my inner workings" was not the intent of this letter to him. And it's not my intent in every situation or with every person I know. My letter was not about asking for what I wanted, or explaining where I felt hurt or whatever. That kind of communication I reserve for people I have an ongoing relationship with, who I'm trying to establish a better foundation of understanding with. I've taken seminars on communication, and the goal for everyone is to make yourself understood, in a way that does not make the other person feel defensive. So wanting to be understood is a pretty healthy drive, as I see it. You just have to know with whom and in what ways that's important.

 

With this guy, it would be pointless for me to directly address flaws in his behavior when we were going our separate ways and most likely (I imagined) not having to interact. Getting "needs and desires met" was a non-issue at that point. And as was pointed out by PTH, to ME, that would simply sound like after-the-fact browbeating.

 

My intent with the letter was to be much more general. Unfortunately, that's what risks sounding like a "sermon", because in fact it's generally about "how life works." I don't claim to be an expert, but in that letter, I felt it was implicit that I was speaking from personal experience, as a woman, about what matters to me in terms of the most broad sense of values (and specifically, with the opposite sex). I think given our prior discussions, he has a grasp of these themes in his life -- and therefore, I was in fact speaking about things he could relate to and are part of his inner vocabulary -- but this was a more explicit way of underscoring those themes than he's used to. Also, I didn't think I'd need to say anything specific about how they related to the bedroom activity for him to make that connection himself.

 

So being a bit vague came with the assumption that he's not stupid, and can connect those dots.

 

As for the gender stereotypes, I was basically breaking the ones that he had explicitly told me he was operating on. He told me more than once, as I said in this thread, that he likes being a guy and "not to have to talk", that that's what women do, that's the difference between men and women, etc. etc. Once, when I tried to talk to him, he actually said, "I don't like to talk about stuff, I just wanna sit here and be a guy, okay?" So that's someone who has a whole lot of gender stereotypes in his head, and "male pride", etc. I can't go into all the ways that he reinforced his male/female worldview while I knew him, but the only thing that I really felt the need to address was this mistaken notion that "men don't communicate" and "women are the ones who talk." So in that, I was pretty direct. I honestly think he could have used some feedback on that -- and whether it was my role or not to tell him, since these issues had come up before, and because they related to ways he dealt with me, it felt worthwhile to say.

 

Anyway, I was all about breaking down the gender stereotypes, not building them up, so maybe you missed that intent.

 

I'm not sure how you feel that my letter was verbose or trying for a "verbal upgrade" with vocabulary embellishments and so forth. I actually felt that what I wrote was pretty simple and pared down. I tried to write as closely to how I'd actually SAY it, verbally. It's different when you try to write something from when you say it, of course, tone of voice being the key. So tone can get lost in the writing. I'm absolutely positive I could have said what I wrote there verbatim to him and carried it off without appearing to be condescending or preachy, and in fact, it could have been a decent dialogue -- except that dialogue was not his bag, nor direct communication, which was my point, precisely. So I was being quite honest saying that this was the next best thing, a "compromise."

 

I don't agree that the note itself is somehow high falutin, or out of touch with my audience, if that's what you're saying. I think it's pretty user-friendly, informal and everyday.

 

I'm well-aware that one must tailor speeches and writing to different audiences. Like you, I'm seasoned at that (moreso writing than speeches, but recently I've had to speak more and the nature of the audience spans the gamut.) I think it's much like knowing how to pick up on social cues -- you have to tailor how you express yourself given the vibe from a person or a group of people. There's an appropriateness factor to all social interactions, and I see presentations in the same way, whether on a large scale (a huge audience listening to your speech), or an intimate scale, like handing a roomate a hand-written letter that could be titled, "highlights I'd like to get out there, for you to consider, as it relates to what happened with me or anyone." It was not an effort for my heart/mind/soul to be understood, nor to itemize my grievances.

 

I do not have a problem with being direct in many instances. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. But overall, when I'm not direct, it's when I feel I'm dealing with a defensive person and have to tread lightly. Also, as someone who grew up with constant, unremitting punishment and criticism for speaking up and expressing myself, the residual fear of "repercussions" still lies within me. Twenty-five-plus years of that will last you a lifetime. But there was nothing about this situation with the letter that had to do with any of this. I wasn't trying to be vague, but I wasn't trying to directly address any of the incidents that happened with me/us, either.

 

However, I WAS direct when I told him "I care for you," and interestingly enough, that has not met with high-fives anywhere on this thread.

 

As to the whole "I care about you comment" and why you said it. I'm quite sure, unlike you, he didn't perceive the saying good bye as a monumental, epic event in his (or your life), but just one of those things that happen, while for you it seemed to signify a defining life moment. Thus the context for each of you were different and thus the interpretations can be hugely different.

 

Really, that's going a bit too far. I thought of the moment as "closure" for a period of time in my life that was unusual. I did want to feel I'd gotten that in some way and said the right thing, spoken from my heart but not in an overwhelming way. I don't know if I accomplished that, given the feedback I've gotten here. But I would not call it "a monumental, epic event" nor "a defining life moment." That's way melodramatic.

 

I just wanted to convey that even though there had been some strain, and perhaps wanting to continue our connection could be read as me hoping for more sexual contact, it really was about friendship for me -- and the defining quality of that as I said earlier is care. So I spelled that out.

 

For better or worse. I take it you are saying that this deterred him?

 

I would have preferred not to say something at the end that was such a deterrant, but on the other hand, I question whether that ONE thing in isolation could have such a consummate effect on what he wanted to do about staying in touch; and if so, part of me thinks there'd be something imbalanced and inordinate about that, suggesting that we had nothing to rest such a connection on in the first place.

 

I will say, in general (so, not relating to any particular piece of writing), that I love the unique breadth of possibilities within the English language and feel that too much of it goes to waste.

 

 

Maybe other posters have other takes of that letter. Though my smiley at the end indicates I'm not expecting rave reviews, lol.

[tiredofvampires]

Oh, just to add this:

 

a) you can't state it more clearly than the first underlined part: he expects direct communication, because that's the way he is. Simple statements as 'I want/like this, but not this.'

b) his worry wasn't that you would be unhappy, but mainly that you would freak out. Interesting choice of expression, don't you think?

 

All he was saying, basically, is don't go along with something you really don't want to (in settling on a rental together) and not state your concerns up front, only later to be really upset (i.e., "freaking out") that you didn't.

 

I assured him I wouldn't do that, and I agreed with that. And I voiced my concerns when they came up, in line with that.

[tiredofvampires]

However, I WAS direct when I told him "I care for you,"

 

And if there ever was a case of being direct and making yourself vulnerable, this was it.

[truman2017]

And if there ever was a case of being direct and making yourself vulnerable, this was it.

 

 

in the 21 pages of the thread I may have missed his response---what was his answer?

[LikeWater]

And if there ever was a case of being direct and making yourself vulnerable, this was it.

 

As you've stated, you'll probably get no high-fives on that one. However, that doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't have said it. Not only that but your friend flat out told you that it was totally you to say such a thing.

 

I can't speak from where that line was coming from in your case, but I feel that those words can be and often are misinterpreted. I can however speak from an experience that I had once. Basically, a female friend of mine (one I'd known for a while and never had any romantic feelings for) was going through a very rough time in her life. Just a lot of things going on at once. She had recently been through a breakup, there were things going on with her family, school was hard, and so on.

 

I felt really bad for her and could definitely tell she was not having an easy time at all, so I was trying to just get her to talk about it but she refused. I'm well aware of how independent (read: stubborn) she is so with not having much success getting her to speak about any of it, I told her "Hey, just so you know I do care about you, and that's why I ask. That's all."

 

See now to me it was just a reminder. Kind of like "HELLOO, remember me? I'm your friend... talk to me!" She saw at as something else entirely and thought I was developing feelings for her. Or trying to take advantage of her or something. It caused her to back off even more, and not only refuse my offerings of help and support but she essentially stopped speaking to me for a good month or so. Finally I asked if I had pissed her off somehow and she told me about how she interpreted those words. I don't regret how I put it, like I said, to me care does not equal feelings of love or desire or what have you. BUT... it was a lessen that maybe I do need to just sometimes reconsider how I say something while still being able to relay the same message.

 

Once again, I've not a clue how he interpreted what you said. It could be something that made him more reluctant to have any future interactions with you, or perhaps he's already gotten to know you well enough to even suspect you'd say something along those lines. Who knows.

 

As I mentioned, I do not regret the way I chose to express to my friend that I was there for her. I chose to say, "I care about you." I do feel like sometimes maybe people need to be reminded of that. Perhaps you have a similar line of thinking. If that's the case, you shouldn't regret it either. Just falls into the category of you being you, something one should never feel bad about.

 

I still say you wait a while and then just give him a call or text. Suggest the movies as you two have already talked about. If he doesn't respond or blows you off, then at least you tried, and life will go on. Personally, and maybe I'm just naive, but I wouldn't take his unresponsiveness at your deposit text as anything negative. He may still be totally open to being friends with you, but simply doesn't see that particular text as something that warrants a response.

 

Either way, I wish ya luck.

[tiredofvampires]

in the 21 pages of the thread I may have missed his response---what was his answer?

 

Ha, I'm definitely at the point in this thread where I am having trouble locating what I said where, or worse, trying to locate people's posts.

 

But I've gone back and found the post where I initially wrote about that piece of our interchange:

 

I said, “So, I’m going to say goodbye to you now,” and advanced forward, but as soon as I said that, he stepped forward too, and reached out. We kissed eachother on the cheek close to the mouth (with equal conviction -- though as you'd kiss your cousin), with a brief hug (also equal conviction). And then I said, looking into his eyes and with a clear, earnest tone, “I really do care for you. [ah, the iffy garbage!! - evoking a bit of a nervous smile from him] You have my number, so feel free to – " and I was going to say “use it”, but he interrupted quite affirmatively and enthusiastically, saying, “Oh, oh, of course. We’ll be talking, for sure. I’ll let you know what happened with my security deposit. And yeah, we’ll be in touch.”

 

Since we had seen on tv some nights before a trailer for the new Daniel Day Lewis movie, “Lincoln,” and agreed it looked really good (and agreed that DD Lewis is one of the best actors out there), I said in an offhand, very casual way, “Maybe now that we’re away from this craziness, we can get a coffee or something. Or Daniel Day Lewis…” and he nodded and said, “Maybe we can check out that Lincoln movie.” I told him I’d let him know how it went with my security deposit too, we cracked a final joke, and I said, “Well, I’m outta here, take care.”

 

“We’ll talk,” he said, confidently.

 

So he didn't say anything directly, obviously, but his facial expression conveyed a smile that was tinged with a bit of awkward nervousness, perhaps a bit of "yeah, yeah, I know." It was a smile though, not a grimace. And I thought I saved it (I felt instantly a bit mortified at myself, since I was trying to go for something totally nonchallant) -- I thought it was a "good save" that I immediately said he had my number (putting the ball in his court), so it didn't look like I was being pushy, even if I were expressing that sentiment. So I thought that would balance it out and put him at ease more.

 

As you can see from the conversation that ensued after that moment, it seemed to me that the "damage control" had worked and that we were going on to thoughts we probably mutually entertained -- going out for a bite, or a movie, or whatever.

 

Some time back, he had told me that his previous female roomate was someone he really liked so much that if she didn't have to leave (the landlady had driven her out as well), he would have "definitely wanted to hang out with her." Of course, if she didn't have sex with him of any kind (and I presume he was telling me the truth when I asked him if that happened with her as well, haha, and he was amused but said, no.)

 

I thought his tone of "we'll talk" and him being proactive with regards to the movie suggestion meant that he was interested, in the same way he might have been with his previous roomate, and in the same way had I not blurted out what I did.

 

I thought when we parted, it was with a kind of EQUAL, "Cool, let's be in touch" energy. He was not wildly enthusiastic, but nor did he seem to withdraw or act reserved right after I said that.

 

But I dunno. Maybe he was just being polite. I overheard him speaking with the landlady in her room when he was giving his keys back to her. I was standing just outside her door as he did so, ready with my keys in hand to do the same after him. And I heard him go, "MWWAHH!" -- so I know he kissed her on the cheek, most likely, and then add, "I'll miss you guys." Okay -- he'd been there for a year, more than me, so more history there that was positive than me. But the last few weeks had been utter insanity and I can't imagine why he'd miss any of that. He'd given me the sense that he was unbelievably fed up and eager to get the hell out.

 

So to what extent he was BSing and shmoozing her, I don't know.

 

AND BY THAT TOKEN -- to what extent he was BSing me, I don't know. It sounded real, his responses to me. But maybe he thought about it some more later and went, "yikes."

 

Anyway, that's the rambly version of the answer to your question, truman, lol. That was his response, up there.

[tiredofvampires]

As you've stated, you'll probably get no high-fives on that one. However, that doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't have said it. Not only that but your friend flat out told you that it was totally you to say such a thing.

 

LikeWater, I still haven't gotten back to your other really lovely and supportive post. All your posts have been honest and straight-dope, but still encouraging, so shout-out for that blend.

 

I have more to say, but just for now, I wanted to say (regarding your previous post) that I'll certainly bump this thread to let everyone know what happens, if he texts me or contacts me again! So fear, not, if there are any developments, you'll know! Thanks for your devoted readership.

 

Perhaps I've over-stated it, but I really feel that I can't: gratitude is a huge part of my life (despite my other moods, and feeling down on my luck), and I feel that recognition of others is really important. So anytime I'm feeling grateful to people (which has happened a lot on this thread), I express that. I don't often feel that I can share on this board, and feel much better dealing with the intricacies of other people's issues. So talking this much about myself is definitely an envelope-pusher. I feel considered in ways that I don't get in real life (and certainly, people don't have the patience in real life), which is why I've been here so long. So I feel fortunate for this medium.

 

I think this is, and always has been, a hard one for me:

 

Just falls into the category of you being you, something one should never feel bad about.

 

I feel that if I've done something by "being me" and that ends up with rejection (or a bad response), I'm hard-pressed not to examine where "being me" missed the mark, you know? Consciously and intellectually, I know that there are many scenarios where a rejection is no reflection on myself, or even the other person (sometimes, a relationship is just not meant to be.) But it's just hard for me to embrace (or accept) parts of myself that cause others to reject me.

 

I'm not talking about people who I know have issues that I can't take personally that are quite evident to me. I've been flagrantly rejected by some people and I don't mind because I see the problem is clearly not with me.

 

I'm talking about how I feel when someone who seems (SEEMS?) basically together rejects me, particularly after there was some really decent rapport.

 

So with my friend saying that he thought it was just like me to say, "I care about you", and that that's "just me," I'm not sure why that'd be an okay thing, just by virtue of it "being me." I mean, I didn't really get a result that I'd hoped for, right? And I wasn't seeking it with someone who I judge to be inherently bad for me (my mom will disagree -- I finally broke down and told her what happened here with TheyoungbodybuilderfromTexaswithhiscapturnedbackwardsandeatingpizza, saying, "I just don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater" -- to which she replied, "It's all bathwater.") So then if I'm just fine being me, I'd have to be completely fine with whatever negative result I got -- and that'd be false here, because in fact, I would have preferred the guy not be turned off (if he was).

 

I think my friend, himself, feels that's endearing about me. What I said, "I care about you." He had that tone in his voice. So it was comforting for a little while. Then the doubts crept in. I mean, I was interacting with this guy, not my friend.

 

Also, this friend of mine...while he knows me very, very well, we are actually exes. And for good reason. If he were to see this thread, he'd be going into paroxysms of vomiting, lol, for it's extent of analysis. Which is all "me being me." So miles of vomit is not my idea of "you're awesome just the way you are."

 

I've encountered people (and men) who are far more attuned to me intellectually and constitutionally, so we could say it's just as much his limitation, right? But they're few and far in between. And that's why when I look at "who I am" and only see that it could appeal to a tiny fraction of those I encounter, it's...well, it's not very conducive to full self-acceptance.

 

To illustrate what separates my friend's personality and mine, last night we saw eachother and I mentioned that I didn't get a return text about the deposit from this guy. And my friend said huffily, "Look, it is what it is. Stop reading into it." (Kind of what you said, so no, you're not naive.) I said, "Yeah, but isn't that just basic, common courtesy, to reply in kind, especially when he knew this had been an ordeal for me/us? Or if he wanted to signal some interest, since we have no more ties, isn't disinterest the unwritten message he's sending?" and basically my friend got really annoyed/worked up (a common thing), saying again and again, "it is what it is," which is obviously neither here nor there. "Stop overthinking things" is his mantra. Back when I posed the question of how I should text the guy about his deposit, he said, "Why play games? If you want to go see a movie, ask him. Just do what you feel." I don't see it as simple as that.

 

I mean, sometimes you have to pick up on hints, otherwise all you're proving is that you're either socially inept, or desperate, or both (and that's why so far I feel leary about making any overtures to him, even if "being me", I'd take your suggestion and text him because I'm a freespirit that way).

 

Having said that, you're right -- I don't know what his silence actually "means." I'm not presuming he's sending me some signal. But nor do I feel that silence = enthusiasm/interest. That much seems clear.

 

I think you're right, he could text randomly in the next months...or not. And it's hard to read anything in to this. To me though, when you're good friends with someone, you can let texts slide, whereas if you barely know someone, a single text says more.

 

Doing justice to your post needs a second installment. Your example anecdote really hits home...

[ProtestTheHero]

I'm not saying he would have contacted you but for your statement; I'm only saying that the probability of it happening plummeted after telling him that. It's hard to hang out with someone who has told you that they care about you if you're just neutral. It creates an awkward imbalance and it's just easier to avoid them.

 

In my experience, FWB is just a euphemism. It's more like acquaintances-with-benefits. The advantage here is, unlike one night stands, you don't have to build rapport with someone new each time you want to have sex. It doesn't always mean there's a whole lot going on behind the scenes that's not related to having sex.

[tiredofvampires]

It's hard to hang out with someone who has told you that they care about you if you're just neutral. It creates an awkward imbalance and it's just easier to avoid them.

 

Oh, well then. In that case. If this is what's behind it, then that's fine. Because the whole premise to me about hanging out as friends (that is, people who have more than acquaintance-level knowledge of, and trust in eachother) -- and really, I wouldn't hang out on a consistent basis with someone I didn't consider a friend -- is that we feel more than neutrality. What would I gain from the company of someone who feels neutral towards me? That's how I feel about the person next to me in line at Starbucks. Absolutely no desire to invest time or energy in that person, because no impetus exists.

 

So if that's how little this guy feels/felt for me, my "blowing it" by wearing my heart on my sleeve would be okay with me because I'm losing nothing. Neutrality = nothing. I'd certainly not want to suffer that imbalance.

 

I thought you meant that while he may like me or have some desire to cultivate something, he may have mistook my words to mean something (like, that I'm after a romantic liaison, or some other pressurized expectation) that he didn't want to deal with, so whatever interest he had in my company, he just shut off.

 

In my experience, FWB is just a euphemism. It's more like acquaintances-with-benefits. The advantage here is, unlike one night stands, you don't have to build rapport with someone new each time you want to have sex.

 

But you DO recognize that while that may be your experience, there ARE people who have friendships -- REAL friendships, replete with trust, history, "getting eachother", moral support, shared experiences, etc. -- who engage in sex, without wanting to turn it into a relationship? You're not saying these arrangements don't exist, are you?

 

And can you define "rapport"? Ironically, that was one of the words you used when you said this guy (maybe I should just called him This Guy, since he's got no name or title here) was lacking in the bedroom. Lacking care about "performance, rapport and ..." (there was a third one, I don't remember).

 

In your experiences, what is "rapport"? Rapport is built. Meaning, you're sensing eachother and taking cues, i.e., paying attention to eachother. I'm asking because the kind of indifference, inattentiveness, and detachment you've described as your existing experience suggests about as much "rapport" as -- no offense -- me being a baboon out in the wild sticking my butt in the air and waiting for a male to wander over and mount it.

 

When you don't care how well you're pleasing your partner, and you don't care much if they're making the effort for you (and even discourage it in ways), and you can't be bothered with anything outside of basics, and in the end you can take it or leave it, what is it exactly you're "building"?

[tiredofvampires]

And then it occurs to me to ask....why would someone who feels neutral about me even be game to hang out in the first place? I'm not sure how his desire to hang out with me would "plummet," regardless of what I said or didn't say, PTH, if he had no desire to begin with.

 

??

 

I just don't get that.

[Miss Firecracker]

And then it occurs to me to ask....why would someone who feels neutral about me even be game to hang out in the first place? I'm not sure how his desire to hang out with me would "plummet," regardless of what I said or didn't say, PTH, if he had no desire to begin with.

 

??

 

I just don't get that.

 

You didn't play the game. You weren't an ice princess, a challenge. I think that could be what he means. Forgive me if I am wrong.

[tiredofvampires]

You didn't play the game. You weren't an ice princess, a challenge. I think that could be what he means. Forgive me if I am wrong.

 

Hmm, you think? Maybe. I mean, I definitely didn't play the game and am no ice princess. But it sounds like PTH is saying the guy wouldn't want to hang around someone who cares, when he doesn't, and I don't know why any guy would want to waste his time having pizza and watching movies with someone he felt nothing for, ice princess or not.

 

Seems to me you have to have a bare minimum of liking someone to want to hang out.

 

And if you like someone...at that point, is it reasonable to say you care about them? I mean, if someone you liked suddenly got critically ill, would you not care?

 

Related to that, I wanted to clarify another of PTH's comments.

 

This is a close paraphrase of what you said, PTH, but you said, "You just have to care about someone you have sex with. It's neither good nor bad, it's just the way you are."

 

I think it'd be more accurate to say that "I care about people I get to know and like. Then, if it progresses to sex, all those feelings are carried over. They don't get left at the bedroom door. So in that sense, I care about people I have sex with, but that's because I've gotten to know them enough to like and care about them from hanging out with them." So, it's not so much that caring is a prerequisite for sex per se, so much as that's the way it works out because I don't have sex with people I've cultivated absolutely nothing with beforehand.

 

As I said in another post...the morbidly curious side of me really does wonder what I'm "missing" in the experience of just finding some attractive-enough guy in a bar and going to wherever to get our rocks off. I wonder how empty the emptiness. I can imagine, but maybe there's a thrill to being that immediate and animal?

 

So it looks like, fortunately or unfortunately for my inquisitive mind, because of the physical issues I come with, being with someone who doesn't care to be attentive would be a "limiting factor" in my experience. I've known this all my life...but trying to break the mold with this guy, I can see just how true that is.

 

The difference between me and other women who are firmly decided on my type of MO is that I feel in their case, it is freely-chosen. In mine, it's a product of suffering and limitation, and that taints it for me. Even if I would have it no other way in the final analysis.

[tiredofvampires]

Oh, and MissF -- I kind of wonder if I was in many ways not the challenge he expected.

 

I'm wondering if on some level, it appealed to him to think he could bag a mature lady, and that was a challenge.

 

I think he could sense enough about me that I'd probably have to be seduced into it, that even though I might be into it, it'd take some persuasion. After all, I was not putting out heavy flirtation or coming on to him in any aggressive cougar fashion (wonder if I did, how that'd turn out?) I don't imagine he was remotely surprised that I needed some cajoling and shooshing.

 

What I don't think he was prepared for was the challenge of not being able to insert his penis, the objections about being clean, my slightly awkward physical moments, my almost clinical distance from this and not losing my head over the chance to get boned by him.

 

What throws this off for me is that I could completely buy on to his being a playboy chasing one tail after another, with all the "challenges" and victories to his belt...and he'd be an archetype, that way...but then there is his "lady" friend. I don't understand how a person who likes games, challenges, ice princesses, or practiced sultry bed-hoppers would even be in the running for a LTR with the polar opposite, with that kind of experience behind him. PTH gave some explanation of this (being able to cultivate such devotion, respect and care over time), but that still leaves me mystified. Because I don't see someone who gravitates to the games, the cold encounters, the challenge of that which can be conquered, even gravitating to the sedate life of a sweet, homely coupling in the first place. It doesn't fit. What in a person can split down the middle like that so drastically, without being some sort of multiple personality disorder?

 

I have to say, though...a part of me feels a protective trepidation for this girl of his. If I knew my once-SO/SO-to-be/husband-hopeful had it in him to operate from such a schism of values and drives, it would be over with us. If I knew my guy had done what he did to me, blurting out we should all have a threesome to another roomate, to shock-and-awe the one he was trying to screw-and-toss, I'd be revolted to the marrow. This is not a matter of growing up, perhaps. It's a matter of how a person fundamentally can and does view others, and that would scare the living s.t out of me if I were her.

 

But what does she know? And maybe that's it.

 

Here's something that struck me, though it was very small. As the small things often do signify the big things. (PTH, this blew my mind.) When I met this girl when she came to visit, we were having a chat about her studies. As I've mentioned, she's a first-year law student. Even though she'd taken this vacation to be with him, she was still swamped with work. So we were talking about all that, and how stressed she was, and she said, "I just want to get my J.D." And he said, "Your what?"

 

So we both kind of in sync told him what "J.D." stands for. But that really threw me, because who in hell knows their loved one is going through an entire course of study and doesn't know what it's called, even. That's like someone having a partner going through medical school and halfway through, saying, "What's an 'M.D.'?" I was so taken aback, I mean maybe for the common person on the street they may not know that term, but he's with her and this is her life. I mean that's just basics. What are you talking about together if that's so inconsequential?? So WHOA, that is not a relationship I remotely can relate to, nor do I envy.

 

He was very careful about telling me not to spill the beans about all the ruckus in the house and the extent of the craziness, because he didn't want to "scare her" and only wanted her to feel completely free of worry and concern. When I mentioned that her red-eye flight home could bring a bit of jetlag, he motioned "shhhh!" to me, and later told me that she worries about jetlag. So you know, this is just not the kind of way I'd want to be kept -- in a bubble of pampered oblivion, ignorance, and thinking everything is just peachy. That's not what I want from my guy -- keeping me in the dark, making everything "perfect" for me when it's not, delivering a polished version of everything.

 

Where little realities aren't shared, don't matter, and are easily forgettable.

 

We're back to the fine table settings, aren't we?

 

It's not for me, and it's not overstating it to say that I fear for her.

[lavenderdove]

OK, please don't send that note.

 

You're talking about integrity, communication, being a gentlemen, men not 'talking' etc. He's going to get that note and go, 'WTH is this woman talking about... we banged a couple of times and she's sending me this passive aggressive crap because she took it WAY too seriously and now she's pissed because i don't want a woman who is old enough to be my mother for a GF.' Or he may not even have a clue why you're sending it because he bangs lots of women like he banged you and nobody has had any complaints about him displaying that awesome body of his for them...

 

the truth is you're old enough to be his mother. and now you want to lecture him like his mother. this will not end well for you or send the message you intended, it will just confuse and infuriate him and might make him think you have potential to be his stalker because that note will come from WAY out of the blue and is basically very negative/critical of him and your encounters. No way around it, it is scolding him like he's a child and he done you wrong.

 

the thing is people are attracted to friends and people who make them feel GOOD about themselves, not feel BAD about themselves. And most young men his age will not think that he owes you a lifetime of consideration and communication just because you guys had a couple of sexual encounters. You're a different generation, and many young people his age are perfectly comfortable having random sexual encounters that lead to nothing other than an orgasm and a 'buh-bye now' and they don't see it as lacking integrity or consideration or respect or communication.... they see it as fun and as releasing sexual energy, that's it.

 

it is clear from your posts that you are struggling with all kinds of self esteem issues because he 'did' this to you, when all he did was offer his body to you a couple times, then when it wasn't terrific sex (and you are acknowledging that) he just let it go.

 

and it is extremely relevant that you are old enough to be his mother... he doesn't perceive you as a peer as he does his ex-GF. you are not someone he feels he can marry and have a long term relationship with, but he did like you enough to communicate with you as a friend and hook-up, but NOT as a permanent FWB or GF. Mentally you keep running down that track, as if this had potential to be a 'relationship' or even a long term 'FWB' and i don't think it ever had that due to the circumstances and your obviously different emotional levels, intellectual levels, ages, life stages etc.

 

How would this look if you GENUINELY wanted to just be friends and didn't want a deeper relationship him? First, you'd not be giving all this mental real estate to him. You'd be settling into your new place and not thinking about him all that much at all. And perhaps you'd wait a few weeks or months, and when you have a house warming party, you invite him over along with the rest of your friends. You wouldn't do a ton of one-on-one stuff with him, but you would call to catch up now and again and maybe do a coffee break with him or stop by his bar for a drink and to say hi now and again. You'd ask him how he's doing, what's new, has he got a GF yet, etc., things you would ask any friend you're not expecting sex or a relationship with.

 

I think the lesson here is that you should make NO assumptions at all about sexual encounters unless you have talked to the person about it before you do it and let them know what it is you want and what you expect out of it. If it's just sex, then fine, but don't expect anything else if he's told you it's just sex. And recognize that not everyone sees casual sex from the same perspective you do. For them it is not about integrity or communication or anything other than enjoying the moment. And different generations have different perspectives about sex, with the trend being that it has been getting more and more casual. they won't invest a lot in someone they only want casual sex with, any more than they'd invest a lot of effort to go thru the drive-thru at a fast food restaurant to slake their hunger when it's convenient, but certainly wouldn't think they owed that girl at the drive thru window more than a thank you. They reserve the flowers and consideration and communication for women they have an emotional connection to, and see sex with love in a totally different light than sex for random sexual gratification of the moment when they don't have a GF at the time (and don't perceive the person as someone they can get serious with).

 

And young hot bodybuilding men are about VERY different perspectives than yours. He is about HIS BODY and frankly he is not going to choose a woman old enough to be his mother for anything more than a casual bang now and again when he's in the mood. And he's going to want to show it off every chance he gets. He's probably banged 50 women by now, to your handful. So his is a different lifestyle than yours and he is not evil because he chooses to be vain and have casual sex, he is just DIFFERENT than you and has an entirely different perspective.

 

And given all the emotions (mostly negative) this has triggered in you, you should try to keep those sexual encounters to men you have more in common with, who are realistic prospects for a relationship rather than someone who is as mismatched as you two were on multiple levels. You need to look for men who want to date and take you seriously, not men who want a quick bang because they haven't had one in a while and are horny at the moment.

 

A lot of wisdom in life is learning from experience because you can't intellectualize emotional experience. You can gain understanding, but i think what you are doing here is just trying to reinforce your own intellectual perceptions that sex should be about relationships and tenderness and if someone doesn't respond to you according to the way you want them to behave, suddenly he becomes 'less than' he should be and bad/wrong and you feel you have the right to lecture him. He didn't commit a crime, he had consensual sex with a woman whom he obviously wasn't a good match long term match with. He probably gets that, i'm not sure that you do.

 

People are not fixer-upper projects and he is who he is, a hot young body building bartender who had a horny moment and had a couple of sexual encounters with you. Then you're trying to jam a square peg into a round hole here and turn it into a lot more than it was, or punish him with lectures if he won't agree to that or have the same viewpoint about things as you do. It frankly sounds like he felt lectured to already, which may be one reason he has gone scarce on you.

 

And perhaps he has already learned far more from this than you know, as in, you are suddenly expecting a LOT from him, and are lecturing him about things and taking this too seriously when all he wanted was a quick orgasm, and thought you might enjoy it too. So he may be avoiding you mostly because he KNOWS you took it very seriously and feel the need to lecture him because he didn't act/respond the way you wanted. He may be saying to himself, 'well that was a bad idea because she's a different generation and seems to want a lot more out of that than i wanted... i don't want to hurt her, but honestly, she's not my mother and this awkwardness and desire to lecture me when we're in he middle of sex and afterwards is just a sign i should avoid older women who look at sex differently than i do.' So he is polite, but avoids anything more because he doesn't want it to be more and doesn't want lectures or emotional drama just because he had a couple of encounters with you.

 

I would suggest that you just let this go, or take the pure 'friends' route and invite him out to a party some weeks or months down the road when you have other people around, but don't expect anything from him at all, or feel you have the right to lecture him just because you had a sexual encounter or two with him when it was convenient for the both of you. Honestly, you should spend your time looking for someone who is right for you, rather than dragging out something that turned out to be WRONG for you.

[Capricorn3]

I would suggest that you just let this go, or take the pure 'friends' route and invite him out to a party some weeks or months down the road when you have other people around, but don't expect anything from him at all, or feel you have the right to lecture him just because you had a sexual encounter or two with him when it was convenient for the both of you. Honestly, you should spend your time looking for someone who is right for you, rather than dragging out something that turned out to be WRONG for you.

ToV, I'm afraid I have to agree with this. I think you are way more invested in this guy and it is not going to go anywhere - or at least, not anywhere you would like it to go. I get the impression it was a one-off thing for him, a short fling, he had his fun, but he's not taking this anywhere near as seriously as you are. He's not invested at all. I think if you didn't keep contact, you probably wouldn't hear from him much at all. He'll move on with his life and give it little thought (imo). I hate saying this and feel so bad saying it, but I think you are making it all much more than it really is, but I understand that's because for YOU it WAS/IS much more - unfortunately, it is not for him.

 

I honestly think you should let it all go. Whatever vision you have in your head with this guy, is not going to happen.

[greywolf]

I wanted to chime in and say that I think it would be best to give up on this guy. He doesn't even seem very interested in a friendship at this point.

[tiredofvampires]

Wow, Lavenderdove. That was quite the tour-de-force of tough love.

 

I appreciate how long it takes to pen something of that magnitude. As you know, I do that a lot here, myself. Posts of that length and passion. So I get it, and I always do so hoping that the energy spent will strike a chord with the OP that will feel correct, on-target, and applicable.

 

So I'm a little reluctant to tell you that so much of what you wrote is off-base, I wouldn't even know where to start. I'm trying to find one thing you're right about -- either in assessing my orientation or his, or the situation as it stands -- because I don't shy away from criticism and like to think I'm taking even the harsher points of view on board if there is any merit to them. But I don't feel that I can do justice to your points without an equally long and involved post, solely as a rebuttal to what I not only believe, but know, to be inaccurate admonitions, presumptions, and characterizations. And that's probably not productive, so I’m going to try to streamline my response as best I can.

 

One of the problems is that it's quite apparent you haven't read the entire thread. So without the posts to round out your cookie-cutter-assumptions about me to offset these impressions, I would expect a post like this. If you had read the thread (though I certainly don't fault anyone who doesn't wish to read such a colossal thread), you'd see that many of the things you're saying are not just ill representations of my position and feelings, and even of his reactions, but are factually incorrect/inaccurate.

 

To highlight just a few, offhand --

 

1. You keep saying we "banged"; using the word "bang" multiple times. A rather huge centerpiece of this thread is that we didn't "BANG"

2. I did not, anywhere, at any time, in any way, lecture him -- not in the beginning, the middle, the end, or the aftermath of the sex, and to the present date; if anything, part of this thread has been devoted to my wondering if I should have and if I missed that opportunity

3. We parted on amicable terms, with him suggesting in tandem with me that we see a movie, so him drawing the conclusion that I'm a bitter, scorned, pressuring, unrealistic "mother" figure couldn't be further off the mark, as a characterization of our dynamic; your saying that he may be scarce from me now owing to feeling lectured/berated seems to leapfrog over all the events surrounding our parting

4. I did not, anywhere, at any time, in any way, suggest in verbal or non-verbal cues that I expected anything more of this than what it was; the sexual episodes were dropped, and we moved forward to carry on much as we had been carrying on before

5. At the point you've come back in to this thread, it is quite clear that I won't be giving him that note, that it's entirely a moot issue; how would I? Being nowhere in physical contact with him anymore, with no way to give it to him, even if I desperately wanted to stalk him (LOL, at that, and his being "infuriated" and scared by me) -- READ THE THREAD, and you'll see that note is only presented here as a footnote of what I wrote at one point in time that was never used, and which I was glad was not used; I only posted that to chronicle one piece of this story

6. I made it very clear that, had I left the note for him, it'd be under circumstances where I didn't even expect to see him again, and was at peace with him making whatever he wished out of my words; that I was not invested in his interpretation

7. I've said in numerous spots that I've taken some equally positive things away from this experience that feel solid, and even expressed gratitude for him in that

 

In your last/prior post on this thread, you made a point of saying underscoring that I am old enough to be his mother and that I need to stop wanting a relationship that is inappropriate here. I posted back to you with the matter highlighted IN RED, BOLD type, stating that I had no such intentions or desires. I explained in depth why. Yet here you are again maintaining the same position as if I had said nothing.

 

I can't and won't try to convince you any more that I am not interested in pursuing a romantic relationship with this guy. No matter what stars exploded or were newly born, or which rare comets streaked accross the Earth's stratosphere with signs and omens of our meant-to-be-ness, I would reject that possibility in this lifetime for all the reasons I stated earlier.

 

Because I have had FWB relationships that I did not try to force into anything more, when I knew that they could not be more, I know that I am capable of such relationships. Would I want one with him? Again -- READ THE THREAD. I stated that it's not something I'd take off the table; however, I would very explicitly spell out terms that I need to have met for that to be enjoyable for me. One thing this thread has made amply clear, given the various input from women OF ALL AGES AND STAGES OF LIFE WHO HAVE NSA SEX, is that there are different ways a man can behave within that arrangement. Some men can act like boors within that framework, and some can act very decently and respectfully. So even with an NSA arrangement (and there are many that involve age gaps -- see eNotAlone website), there are cads and there are cool dudes. He was acting more like the former, and while my asking for some things to change wouldn't equate with the kinds of expectations you'd have in a relationship, I think they would be reasonable ones for the situation. And as I pointed out, that may deter him from wanting to even bother with it, so in that case, fine with me. We'd just be friends.

 

And I've also said that in numerous places in this thread as well: that I am interested in his friendship, without benefits. So, FWOB is something I can do, would do, and could sustain.

 

The only remaining question being whether he would find that worthwhile. Which takes us to the current discussion. It seems that he may not be inspired enough for that, in which case, I'm fully prepared for that and since I've been prepared for that all along, it'd really come as a shock if he wanted to check out the movie he seemed to want to see with me.

 

I've left the ball in his court (desperately clingy over-the-hill frau that I am), and that's so he can take it or leave it, and if it's leave it, I go with my dignity intact (dignity, because I do not believe it's out of bounds to think me making the next moves could look like exactly what you're scolding me erroneously about.)

 

Which is why this would not be suitable:

 

You'd be settling into your new place and not thinking about him all that much at all. And perhaps you'd wait a few weeks or months, and when you have a house warming party, you invite him over along with the rest of your friends. You wouldn't do a ton of one-on-one stuff with him, but you would call to catch up now and again and maybe do a coffee break with him or stop by his bar for a drink and to say hi now and again. You'd ask him how he's doing, what's new, has he got a GF yet, etc., things you would ask any friend you're not expecting sex or a relationship with.

 

Sure, that would be lovely. Except that something has to start that ball rolling. And that's where what I said above comes into play.

 

Why would I invite him over for a house-warming party after months of us being moved and in default NC when he hasn't even responded to the most bare-bones of texts/conversation-starters that I sent him? Why would I be presumptuous enough to call him, thinking he'd like to hear from me to catch up, if I've explicitly given him the green light to contact me and he doesn't? As another poster pointed out, he's hardly shy. Why would I stop by his bar for a drink (which he knows I don't do -- drink, that is) to say hi, when I didn't even do that when we were POSSLQ's? (for those who don't know, "persons of opposite sex sharing living quarters") If anything were to look tawdry and stalkerish, that would be it -- so transparently a ploy to come see him. He knows I wouldn't ever visit that place where he works, it's not my scene. I know you were just giving some examples, but as you can see, those are the only ones we have since we have no foundation other than the one we had, and so without a "date", even just a platonic and casual one, there is no "in" here.

 

As for housewarming parties, I can't expect you to know this, but I don't throw housewarming parties because the places I live are not conducive to large crowds. My new place is a tiny room. With a bathroom. And a tight kitchen. That's it.

 

So I hardly think the fact that I'm not doing all the things you suggest are indicative of my buried, closeted desire to force the round peg of my frustrated dreams with him into the square hole of his youthful indifference.

 

I'm not going to go out of my way to contact him any more than he will; but since he is the less forward of the two of us (sexual plays being the exception), and as all (including myself) have judged him to be the less interested party, it only makes sense that I leave this contact to him.

 

As for the mental "real estate" I've spent on him with this thread -- READ THE THREAD -- you'll find this thread is about more than just him; that he's in ways become a point of departure for other self-reflections, journal-like processing, life perspectives about human interaction in other respects, and my inventory of romantic pursuits, fears, historical references, etc. as they come to bear on my feelings about love, friendship and myself, triggered by our brief relationship.

 

What's more, I spend a whole lot of mental "real estate" on dozens of other things and people, and it doesn't have anything to do with my wanting a romantic relationship with them. I'm sort of the Donald Trump of thinking, period.

 

It's of note to me that while you took great pains to take me to task on the woes of lecturing him and patronizing a person, the tone of your post comes off as laced throughout with these qualities. I find it striking that, while you've missed so much of importance in this thread, you've picked up and honed in on words like "he did this to me," taking that out of context to characterize my emotions in a certain ugly light. "People are not fixer-upper projects and he is who he is." That's true. But you're not talking to ME. You're talking to some other poster. (And that is the recurrent feeling I have from elements in your posts on this thread, but particularly this last one -- that you are not actually hearing or listening to me, but rather drawing from some blueprint.)

 

One last refrain: READ THE THREAD. (I mean, you don’t have to, but if you’re going to make such strong statements about where I stand, it’d be advisable.) And if you have read it...well then, I'll just say, I don't know what happened.

 

Oh, and this is just a small technicality, but he's not a bartender. You've said that in several places. He's a waiter at a restaurant, as I've mentioned, so his background is in fine dining, not bartending. Serving drinks comes with that job and a bar exists in the restaurant.

 

Thanks for giving it your best shot, though. You have a lot of fine wisdom and experience overall as a poster, so I tend to esteem your opinion. It's just that this missed the mark in crucial and multitudinous ways, based on incomplete, stilted understanding of this thread and perhaps other factors I’m not entirely clear on.

[tiredofvampires]

Thanks, guys.

 

I know it seems contrary to the fact that my thread is still going strong, and I'm still investing myself in that way to say this, but I have fully given up on him. That's already happened. I was surprised that he even texted me to tell me he got his security deposit back, and I briefly entertained the thought that he might actually have been serious about staying in touch. But the texts that followed of mine being met by silence closed that door again. Which is to say, I returned to the expectation that this was done.

 

Cap, you're right, though. It WAS much more to me than it was to him. I think it has been from the very first warm handshake, with him saying, "Welcome to the house", up to his parting words, "We'll talk." And again, I'm going to say that that's because I have a life history, a health history, and an emotional history where this would be a significant event. I fully understand that he had his fling and was done with it. Many of my posts have concurred with that, and your view of this. So we are in total agreement on it.

 

But that doesn't mean I can't continue to digest the meaning of this and as I said to LD, I put a great deal of forethought and afterthought into a huge variety of things, not just dud friendships and fleeting flings. There have a been a lot of tangents on this thread, and most of it has been an wider exploration of my emotional life, and self-perception, which this set off.

 

So if we are just talking about my "visions" about this guy, they are an absolute ZERO.

 

Outside of that, all these discussions and exchanges have been really valuable. No, he's not thinking about me or this anymore. Wouldn't be surprised if he's deleted my number. Another poster said it'd make sense to wait for some time and maybe he'll randomly text me, and while that's possible, I'm certainly not placing any hope, stock or breath into it. He's moving on, and so will I.

 

Am I disappointed that we may not hang out? I'd be a liar if I said I'm not a bit bummed. Part of me doesn't know if he's the kind of person I'd want to retain as a friend because of some of the questionable things I've described on this thread (not just the sexual complaints). I've posted about how I have all kinds of friends, so I can see it. And he's fun enough that it's too bad. But I'll live.

 

Also Cap, LD told me to casually invite him to a party some time down the line. Do you know how ridiculous that would make me look? Coming out of nowhere, with all the time elapsed, and given the fact that the kinds of parties and groups I'd hang out with wouldn't overlap in the slightest with his? (he's the drinking/block party type, I'm the musical jam session/potluck/poetry-reading/networking type). We may have some things in common, but our social circles is not one. One-on-one, I think we could have some really neat talks, some good times, and I daresay, we could introduce eachother to a few cool things on both sides. This is not new to me, btw -- I have a lot of friendships that don't "crossover" well, with me being an intersection point between worlds that otherwise would not touch. I think the kind of person he is, he probably has a more homogenous social circle than I do; mine is a motley crew, which would explain how he could "fit" into my life but I wouldn't "fit" into his.

 

But that'll be a few new life experiences less for him, just as well as it will be for me.

 

And certainly, for all the carrying on here and wringing it out ("to death", another less charitable poster said), at current tally, he's 223 posts less enlightened than I. I've done a lot of soul-searching and pondering about value systems here that I'd call "the examined life."

 

Not one post in this thread has been too much, or uneccessary. But that's just me.

[lavenderdove]

TOV, i did read your thread. You can try to argue the semantics of 'banging' but saying 'sucking him off while he finger banged you' is far cruder so i avoided that. I'll say it now so that you understand i DID read your thread.

 

You talk endlessly about not wanting a romantic relationship with him, yet your ideation and thoughts reflect feelings that a rejected lover would have. Someone who just had casual sex for casual sex and didn't expect more and didn't want him for a BF would not get wrapped around the axle by his behavior, they would just say, 'meh, casual sex, not that great, he's pretty but young and doesn't understand how to please a woman that well, oh well' and forget about it.

 

and if he was such a boor, why oh why do you keep trying to stay in contact with him, initiate contact, get furious when he doesn't want to respond to a text and then want to send him a very critical note because he didn't respond quickly to you? You don't see those two as connected, but they are, because your posts about him are positive when he pays attention to you, and negative when he doesn't respond the way you want.

 

would you send a reprimanding email like that to a female friend who didn't pay enough attention to you, or even spend a lot of time stressing over whether she did or did not instantly respond to a text?

 

And the difference between you wanting to lecture him on his moral character and sexual abilities and me responding to your thread is you ASKED for advice and input, so I am giving it. He would be probably be very shocked and upset (and confused) if one minute you are making nice-nice with him, then the next you drop an email on him that tells him he doesn't communicate, is inconsiderate, has no integrity etc.

 

I have in fact had several younger men chasing after me, but the difference is i recognized they were young men, half baked and nowhere near equal to me in experience or emotional awareness, and it would be folly to accept any of their invitations for anything other than casual sex, which i was not interested in.

 

I never accepted a sexual invitation from someone 15 plus younger than me when they were in their 20s and me in my 40s because i recognized that we did not have much in common for the long run. They were half fledged and I was not interested in 'breaking them in' or sexually mentoring young man in order to try to make them a more appropriate partner or a better lover.

 

Men in their 20s deserve to have the full gamut of experience and not have someone 20+ years older criticizing their sexual performance or emotional awareness, unless they ASK for those comments. He may be a fine man in 20 years when he is your age, but many men in their 20s are all about the orgasm and have crushes on women that ebb and flow from day to day so you can't take them seriously nor do you want to crush their spirit by having expectations of them that aren't really valid for a young man in his 20s.

 

And I have had long term relationships with two men younger than me, one 5 years, one 7 years that were fully fulfilling because we were closely matched in goals/experience etc., so i have nothing against age gap relationships if the people are well matched and there is not a big different in life stages. But the 20 year gap is significant becasue that is a difference in life stages and generations that most men will not breech for anything serious.

 

Older men will seek younger women because they are after the 'tender young fruit' sexual factor, but most men just can't stomach that older woman gap in the end exactly because you are not a tender young fruit and because of issues like child bearing years and because most cultures do not readily accept older woman/younger man generation gaps. There are of course always exceptions to that rule, but they are very, very rare. Younger men want to have sexual experiences with older women, but they don't want to commit to them permanently as partners.

 

Young men like the IDEA of an older woman because they perceive her as sexually experienced and eager to please and admire his hard young body, but when it comes to relationships, it is a very rare young man who is willing/able to bridge that large a gap UNLESS she is a wealthy older woman and the relationship offers him far more benefits than just a 'regular' relationship which they will seek with their peers.

 

He was also a young man who was clearly in love with his ex, and not in love with you, so i would never have accepted that invitation for that reason alone, nor held it against him if I did accept and the experience was less than stellar. Just like he was saving the emotional tenderness for her because he felt it was her due, perhaps he was saving the sexual tenderness for her as well, and would have felt badly if he 'faked' that tenderness with you when he felt that tenderness should all be reserved for her because of his feelings for her.

 

What i was suggesting is that you treat him as a FRIEND, and not have any other expectations of him. That means 'sometimes' contact, not constant contact, and not expecting to do 'date-like' things with him or have intense exchanges where you reprimand him for having no integrity or not communicating or whatever. I was giving examples not to try to tell you you had to do those things, but to show you that the level of contact of friends has far fewer expectations that you are putting on him.

 

I am also clearly stating that nothing he has done shows any great lack of integrity or communication or the other things you mention he needs to 'correct'. He didn't rob you, and he didn't rape you, and he didn't force you into unprotected sex. He just felt awkward after the encounter because he probably knew as well as you did that the pairing of you two was not working out and he realized he was sharing a house with you and it would be VERY awkward now and he didn't know what to do about it. He never promised you anything he didn't do either. So a lot of your criticism of him is off the mark, and more an indication that you are just unhappy how all this turned out in the end.

 

Your anger at my post says a lot... you are very defensive about this and say you want to really examine it, but when you don't like someone else's opinion, you turn it around into an ad hominem attack. All I am trying to do was respond to your posts (which you invite people to do by posting on this board). What i am getting at is not an attack on you, but that if you want him as a friend, then you should not respond to him with a note that reads as if you were a spurned lover or his mother lecturing him because he wasn't tender enough during the casual sexual encounter you had.

 

That will just upset and confuse him, and will drive him away from you. And if you send him that note, his response will probably be far different than you anticipate. It won't 'correct' him, it will alienate him from you. And again, i say this because you ASKED for opinions, and because I am trying to help you with your goal, which is to put this encounter with him in perspective, and allow you a way to stay his friend without awkwardness or rancor. If that offends you, I am sorry...

[penelope13]

"to death", another less charitable poster said

 

I said that. And I also explained in a follow up post (which you may not have had time to read since you didn't respond/rebuttal in any way) what I meant by that in more detail, since you interpreted this expression differently than I intended.

 

I am sorry that you perceive me as an uncharitable poster, because my intentions came from a good place and I was under the impression that you wanted to be challenged in your thoughts and interpretations.

[tiredofvampires]

My assumption on ENA is that if people didn't have their hearts in the right place, they wouldn't post here, particularly not as extensively as you have (usually, that's the case, anyway.) So I've taken on your posts with the same open-mindedness as others' posts.

 

But there were so many wrong and off-the-mark things about your post, and delivered in a way that wasn't just "sober reality", but I felt to be patronizing and in a way that was glaringly undermining your own points to the extent it could not be overlooked. But I agree that posts should not focus on other people's posting demeanor as much as the content, so I wish to minimize this element as well. I brought it up, it stands, and that's that.

 

Of course, if I register a strong negative emotional response to anything you've said, it can always be chalked up to "the lady doth protest too much, methinks." Other than having some tool that can put up for display exactly the contents of my brain and heart as hard evidence of what I really think and feel about this guy, I have no way of actually "proving" you're wrong about my motivations. But wrong you are. And I can be reacting to your abrasive tone and lack of getting the facts right with irritation without that being a "statement" that I am in denial about this situation and my feelings.

 

I also mentioned that there were things in this thread that could not so readily be understood by the particular audience that is ENA, because in general, the people who come to ENA talking about casual sex and their flings do not have some more atypical and uncommon psychological overlays that I do, relating to a troubled physical/sexual history. That really does change everything, thematically. Posting this on a forum where these elements would be shared by the majority of the readership would mean a very different attunement to such issues, and therefore, different counsel. Someone who does not recognize this would simply be ignorant on this matter. (Which is why your comparing your propositions for casual sex from young men with my situation is not appropriate.) And that's just one of those things I accept as a limitation of "trying to be understood" in this venue. But as I said, ENA serves my purposes for this, anyway. For the most part, I feel the main concerns have been sufficiently grasped by the majority of posters, in some cases in spades (by both men and women), and much of this IS universal and can be extrapolated that way, despite my more obscure thought processes. And some posters here have shown a depth of sensitivity and empathy such that I couldn't have asked for better feedback.

 

You are of course entitled to your POV, and to post. However you are in a very, very tiny minority of posters who do not believe this man treated me disrespectfully, casual understandings aside. I don't necessarily side with the majority or the popular view (or the one that makes me feel good about myself) and in the end it's me making up my own mind about how I feel treated, but I'm pointing out that those who are completely unaffected by this man and have never met him, and have no stake in any communication with him, and are as capable of criticism as you are, disagree that I have no grounds to feel disrespected. I've gotten such feedback from some the the posters I respect the very most on ENA for their objectivity and scrutiny. So it's not just me concocting this out of ego toast.

 

As I said before to you, you have made some good points along the way, but in these last posts I feel that you have been grossly mistaken, and I have shown you where. It's not that I can't take criticism, it's that I respond better to posts that reflect a full consideration of all that has been presented, and that continue to take in new information as I present it, either about my feelings or the situation.

 

You say you've read the thread. If so, I'd like to ask you to return to posts #203, #206, and #138 for a refresher. That should cover just about every point that I'd make here to respond to your post, above. These posts will remind you of where we agree about this man, and where you have missed various things in my posts, including huge factual tracts of information and events overlooked, and how your statements could not apply to the current situation at hand.

 

You're right that society does not look as kindly upon an older woman/younger man large age gap as benignly as an older man/younger woman (fully adult woman, that is.) If I log onto any average dating site, the men in my age bracket ROUTINELY indicate an age preference range of 20-something (often mid-twenties) to mid-thirties. No one thinks anything of it. It's SOP. And while some people may say women mature faster than men, and in fact one could find soulmates with this profile of age and gender, it's nearly impossible to find women in my age bracket who indicate 20-something men in their sought-for range. Unlike the reverse, people aren't looking at a 40+-yr-old woman/25-yr-old man as, "Oh well, she's just casting a wide net. Who knows, she may find 'the one', in his 20's. It's just a preference, it's just a personality meshing issue," yada yada. No. With a woman seeking a man 15+ years her junior, it'd be, "What's wrong with that woman? Something is seriously delusional and socially or emotionally damaged about her." Although for both sexes, I've seen the finger-wagging, "You're old enough to be their father/old enough to be their mother," for women this carries even more insidious and grotesque implications. I think for both sexes, when the "mother/father" charge is brought up, the connotation of incestuousness is invoked. So the cautionary comes with a bit of social shaming. While men take hits for predating on younger women, the ugly light for older women is that much stronger and more inhibiting. When you're a "mature" woman, you're seen as matronly and aging. When you're an older man, you're seen as distinguished and seasoned with life. The former is not at all sexy. The latter can be intoxicatingly sexy. The former seems parental, the latter may not be that at all.

 

Some men think "MILFs" and "cougars" are sexy for their experience, but it's more of a novelty issue, and people would still look askance at an actual couple where the woman is that much older. Not the case for a couple with the inverse age/gender makeup. And there are these nicknames for such women. Do names for men who are older and desire younger, grown, adult women exist? No. No special designation for "a man like that."

 

The double standard is always a spectacular thing for me to behold. It honestly galls me, for the imbalanced social acceptability/fairness factor here. But at the very same time I object to the socialization of that as it is, I hate to say it -- and I've said it elsewhere on this board, I think it's part of our genetic makeup in some ways, and our biology which is inescapable. So in a battle with Nature, I lose. I won't go into all that here, as it's not on topic. But I'm just responding to your point that young men and older women don't work out generally, and why, and the perceptions. I agree with all of them. Some of that I find deplorable, and some of it I just think of as par for the course.

 

Either way, I think these issues can be treated with stigma and undertones of shaming, or with sympathy and open-mindedness.

 

And none of it has to do with me and this guy directly, because a pairing with this man, romantically, as I've said too many times, was/is out. Healing and exploring my sexuality, and at very least cultivating a potential friendship with him, given the rudiments that existed, was what it was 100% about.