How to Deal with a Curve Ball I NEVER Saw Coming (death by puns)

[tiredofvampires]

I just wanted to add, for the record, that with this guy, I didn't go all the way either. We did everything but penetrative sex. I've never had penetrative sex outside of committed, exclusive relationships, period.

 

This has been the first time I've been this seriously considering it. I'm at a different stage of life now, and other things have impacted me.

 

Funny thing is, I'm absolutely positive that if I met the current stud at a bar and he was there partying with his friends and hit on me, I'd have turned him down without a second thought.

 

Such things have happened (not quite his type, but random guys.)

 

So, I could still not do that sort of thing. It was this context. The fact that in 4 months...I felt connected, and there was all the build-up, and the chance for me to start feeling him as a person (and thinking he was feeling me a bit as a person), not just a body.

[penelope13]

You don't have to justify and apologize for the type of relationship that you had with this person. As CAD said, there are all sorts of shades what people call relationships or even marriage. In the same way, there are all sorts of shades what people call casual relationships.

 

I actually find it more honest and liberating if one can openly admit to themselves (and others) that for whatever reason at certain points in your life one doesn't want a relationship under the pretense of it leading to marriage or long term commitment. It doesn't automatically follow because you don't put on the label of 'romantic relationship potentially leading to life commitment' that the relationship has to be cheap, disrespectful, emotionally poor (or any other negative connotation some people automatically associate with any kind of interaction outside the conventional romantic relationship).

 

I consider sex only one (although important) aspect of a relationship that ideally you would only share with someone with whom you are in love and who loves you back. But nobody thinks about twice if you are not in a relationship that you are not supposed to have any deep emotional interactions/conversations with anyone because you are not in a relationship. Just when it comes to sex some people have very strict definitions.

 

As it can be extremely stimulating and satisfying having deeply emotional/intellectual interactions with people with whom you have not established a romantic relationship, for some people, having a physical interaction outside a relationship can be equally enjoyable without it having to be cheap.

 

Who am I to dictate to you (or anyone) how you chose to live your life. If you want to experience sex, but for whatever reason, don't necessarily want it within the confines of a relationship - you don't have to justify that to anyone.

 

In any interaction with another person, mutual respect should be at the top of the list of requirements, regardless what the interaction is about.

 

I understand your desire. Who doesn't want to experience once that the person in front of you desires you to such an extent that nothing else in that moment seems to matter? No thought about the next morning, the next week, what will he/she think - just the simply animalistic give in to your desires feeling. No feeling that you need to have 'earned to be desired and pleasured'. Of course you can experience this in a romantic relationship - but the romantic relationship is not a prerequisite for it either.

 

Thus, don't feel bad for what you wanted, just do it safely and with the right person. The only thing you need to make sure is that you are honest to yourself of what your wants and expectations are. Don't try to pretend to want one thing, but then get upset about it not being something different. What I mean: if you are craving the cuddling, gentle touching as a result of deep trust and a shared bond - then a casual sexual relationship is probably not the way to go about that.

 

However, the advent of the internet provides many opportunities to find like minded people. Since there are websites dedicated to every interest imaginable, there may equally be ones where you could explore with others who are trying to have similar new experiences as the one you are seeking.

[tiredofvampires]

In any interaction with another person, mutual respect should be at the top of the list of requirements, regardless what the interaction is about.

 

Yes -- I agree completely. And this seems to be the sticking point here -- the issue of RESPECT.

 

I asked RedDress something along these lines, because like you (and many others) she brought up the issue of his losing respect for me once the door was closed, and the sort of dissociative personality switcharoo that went with that. I think she's moved on from the thread, but since you brought up something along the same lines, maybe you can answer to this directly.

 

In your last post, you said that you would advise against have the non-attached/animalistic/etc. etc. sex with someone other than him because he's just too disrespectful. Then you said that some people can "compartmentalize" (good word) their personalities in and outside the bedroom. (Firiel talked about this, too, in her examples.)

 

I guess what I'm asking is, if this guy had some basic respect for me before we took our clothes off, and that respect then went out the window -- are you saying that he flips a switch on and off, depending on how many articles of clothing we have on and how much flesh is involved in the interaction? So today, he respects me because we're talking about a tv show, fully clothed in the livingroom, and tomorrow night, if we're in my room and I'm servicing him, he no longer respects me? And then magically, he respects me again the next morning when we're both talking about brands of granola that are more/less healthy?

 

Is that really respect?

 

Did I really lose respect irrevocably in his eyes because I ever did take my clothes off and gave him head, and so now, that's just gone?

 

What constitutes "a respectful person" if the respect is not CONTINUOUS? I don't see respect as something you switch on and off like a lightswitch, depending on whether you're indoors or outdoors, in the bedroom or the livingroom.

 

I have to say, it's really pretty twisted that women wind up feeling cheap/disrespected/degraded for giving in to their sexual desires. The only reason women feel they've given up something essential, and lost their self-respect, is because this is the light men cast them in. If men didn't lose respect for women for being non-commitally sexual, women wouldn't get all bent out of shape about it in the first place!

[Capricorn3]

I understand your desire.

 

Thus, don't feel bad for what you wanted, just do it safely and with the right person.

if you are craving the cuddling, gentle touching as a result of deep trust and a shared bond - then a casual sexual relationship is probably not the way to go about that..

I understand your desire too. It is only human nature to be wanted and loved. It is human nature to want to be held, touched etc, so as penelope13 says, "don't feel bad about it, just be safe and do it with the right person". That said, this guy is NOT the right person (imo). A reminder as to WHY he is not the right one, you need to cut and paste, and print a certain section of your original post, and stick copies all over your walls, in your bathroom, on your fridge and read them everyday. You will soon see why you need to let this one go:

 

"When it was over, I tried to lie next to him and cuddle up a bit, and then -- he jolted up like he was stung by a bee, exclaimed, "Holy __, holy __, I have to get outta here!" and in some kind of frenzy just BOLTED on me, clothes in hand, out the door, bare-assed. Ran into his room, slammed the door, cut the lights instantly. Never in my whole life had that happened, and I felt like someone had just slapped me in the face. I knew it was not going to be lovey-dovey...but THIS?!

 

I spent the entire next day thinking I would have to avoid him at all costs, because that exit had just made me feel too rotten and discarded. I didn't know how I'd even be able to face him, with whatever was going on in his head. For some reason, I chalked it up to the realization of the age-gap. But two nights later, we found ourselves at home again in the evening, and he made a point of walking past my room and asking me how I was doing, being very friendly, and drawing me into conversation. One thing led to another, and once again, we were chatting in front of the tv and he was touching me flirtatiously. And then the commentary about the other night sneaked in. He told me that he was absolutely BLOWN away and I gathered that he rushed off like that simply because...the whole situation freaked him out (maybe in a good way) more than he had considered. I still don't know what was running through his mind, but the bottom line is that he propositioned me for a second round, adding, "Did you buy condoms so that I can pay you back?" I told him, uh no, because I thought that was a one-off. So we went into this unprepared. Again.

 

This time, though, he pressured me the entire time about wanting to have sex. I kept saying no, no can do, not without protection. At one point, things heated up to the point that he started to push himself on me and I had to say "no" way too many times -- and he seemed to not be listening, so I said very firmly, "NO MEANS NO." He backed off but seemed almost offended. He also seemed a bit offended/defensive that I was suggesting that I was afraid of STD's, saying if I am worried about that, why do I have my mouth on him?

 

Like the first time, he didn't lift a finger to touch my body, to kiss me anywhere, to caress me. And when I tried to kiss him, he'd just push my head down south again. He didn't at any point seem to want eye contact with me, or to even look at my body, but just lay there with his eyes half shut, in a beer-induced, apathetic stupor. A few times, I felt like my joints were killing me so badly and my muscles were fatiguing so badly, I asked him to shift, and it's as though I hadn't said anything. A few times during the session, I felt a bit sickened by all this, but I felt it would be too rude to just stop in the middle and I was not even sure, since I never have casual sex, if this was just par for the course or what. This time, I just wanted it to be over.

 

This time, I lay on his chest for a good long while afterwards. He didn't jump up, but lay motionless, eyes closed, with his arm over his face, covering his eyes. I tried to nuzzle him, to caress his hands and chest, and it was like lying on a warm...stone. I really don't think I would have attached unrealistic significance to cuddling; but I in fact was craving this feeling again, the feeling of embracing and being held/holding, and it was not happening, not a flicker. From some disembodied location, I looked down on this scene and thought, "ToV, you're such a fool. How did you even end up here?"

[tiredofvampires]

I understand your desire. Who doesn't want to experience once that the person in front of you desires you to such an extent that nothing else in that moment seems to matter? No thought about the next morning, the next week, what will he/she think - just the simply animalistic give in to your desires feeling. No feeling that you need to have 'earned to be desired and pleasured'. Of course you can experience this in a romantic relationship - but the romantic relationship is not a prerequisite for it either.

 

Well-described. I have to say, the way he was so ardent -- even though it turned out to feel pushy and inconsiderate and disrespectful of my boundaries -- was incredibly telling, that this was authentically passionate for him. And something about that feels/felt pretty great, and if the stars had been aligned right (with having condoms), I in all likelihood would have done the deed, though as people are saying here...that would have carried some risk for feeling even more trashed afterwards.

 

There's only one experience in my life that compares to this one. It happened when I was 32, at a concert of one of my favorite bands from the 80's. They were just finishing off their tour here in a smaller venue (which is the only way this could have happened), and since this was already in the 90's, a smaller venue sufficed. They were, in their heyday, an very famous band (and for those who knew that genre well, their name would still be coffetable material), platinum status and all. Well, it so happened (this could definitely turn into another novel, Silverbirch! haha) that after the show, I found myself hanging out near the bar, where the band and a stack of fellow fans were congregating. Many of them, women dressed pretty sleezily (which was a regular part of their persona). For some reason, I got to talking with the lead singer, who had a statuesque, towering presence in real life as much as an iconic one from that period of time. Entering into his 50's, with long hair, of pale Norwegian stock, and an artist, he couldn't possibly be further from this "rugged, macho man" of a roomie. And even though I was dressed in jeans, a black hat, and a t-shirt, sans makeup, he somehow decided that he wanted me to be his lady for the evening (to be euphemistic.) Maybe it was because of the conversation about Buddhism, and how we both are into it. Driving him to his hotel in my cluttered jalopy of a car, I was in the same kind of "altered state" of surrealism I had when my roomie first pushed me on the sofa and propositioned me. It was a kind of disbelief that "this kind of person could see something this attractive in me." It was beyond a compliment, thinking these kinds of people just don't hit on me, so it doesn't make sense (Quirky, this is where your comment comes in so rightly -- something about "leagues" and feeling some people are just out of my league. More on that -- that really rung a huge bell here.)

 

The evening with this guy proceeded with a lot of parallels: he had no condoms (which shocked me, because groupies, I thought, were part of the deal; he said at his age, it was getting a little old, lol, so I don't know about that, but he seemed to be tired out from the tour and not planning on getting frisky.) We didn't have sex, and I did pretty much the same things as with this current guy. Only, in that case, we had a bath together and talked about a variety of things about life, with our clothes off. And he made me feel grand. He touched me, he said sweet things about the way I looked, he even called my sister long distance to freak her out (since she and I had gotten all their posters and music back in the day), and left a phone message saying he was in a hotel with her "cute sister". He also wanted to try his luck with penetration without condoms, and I said no then, just as now. He did tell me that he was clean, instead of acting defensive -- saying he's tested a lot due to all the activity he's had. So we had "the talk" and it was no big deal. He didn't try to stop me from talking, I didn't feel at any point that I was being treated like meat, even though I knew this was going to end when the sun rose, and I was not kidding myself that I must be #20 billion. We hugged, we kissed, we caressed. And in the morning, he ordered me breakfast in bed. I think I could have ended it right there and felt it was damn good enough, but then he said he was bummed that he had to get on a plane and fly back to L.A. because he wanted to drive around with me and see places. He gave me his numbers and said he really liked me, that I was "different." Then he told his bassist in the lobby that my family were professors -- as if showing off I had some brains, haha. So I did not feel disrespected by him, even though this was someone whose job duties practically mandated having meaningless, casual sex.

 

The only part that sucked was that when I called him (yup, believe it or not, I did do that -- again, the curiosity, even though I realized I was certifiably nuts), he did answer but said he was busy with his kids, and then after that, I thought, what the hell am I thinking?!?! This was a fluke, he is...who he is...and I'm here, who I am, and I need to go back to my life of relative obscurity, the way it was before. But that experience was such a jolt, I ended up moving. Because at the time, I was playing life safe where I lived and I realized I had to get out to the city and give myself new opportunities to awaken new things in myself.

 

It was nothing but a fond memory. I don't think I'll be able to say the same about this situation.

 

The common denominator was feeling overwhelmed by the novelty and how far out on a limb I was willing to go for something that felt extraordinary.

 

What's also the same is that I always wondered "what if" I had gone through all the way with him. And now, 13 years later, I have a chance to find out...but again, I'm passing it by.

However, these situations spontaneously arose. They fell in my lap. And that's why I found myself engaged with them. So this:

 

However, the advent of the internet provides many opportunities to find like minded people. Since there are websites dedicated to every interest imaginable, there may equally be ones where you could explore with others who are trying to have similar new experiences as the one you are seeking.

 

would not be at all appealing to me. I would not go on a mission to have this kind of sex, even though it sounds like something I'm wanting. I'm wanting it because it organically presented itself, with all my associations playing into the mix. Going to the internet to fabricate this...would feel pointless to me. It's a good idea, but I'm not seeking this kind of thing out, you see.

 

Once this opportunity is gone, it's going to be gone. That other event took place 13 years ago. And I think in 13 years, it's quite unlikely I'm going to have another encounter like this one.

 

So this might be it, for me. Which is why I'm a bit hung up on letting this go. I mean, I don't expect this to happen again. I may not even live another 13 years, the way my prognosis looks right now.

[tiredofvampires]

Edit to Penelope:

 

The edit window has run out on my post directed to you above, but I mis-wrote this:

 

In your last post, you said that you would advise against have the non-attached/animalistic/etc. etc. sex with someone other than him because he's just too disrespectful

 

That part in bold should have been "like". LIKE him.

[penelope13]

I think respect can be compartmentalized and it's done more frequently than people realize. Firstly, if I say 'respect the other person' you are thinking about respecting a person in their entirety and complexity with all their aspects. However, we all in our daily interaction with people compartmentalize.

 

For example: i can have a respectful interaction with co-workers and respect their work style, work ethics, their skill set etc - that doesn't automatically mean that I have to respect them who they are as a private person outside work. They can be actually total jerks, or totally uninteresting to me - yet I can interact with them in a respectful manner within the definitions of work.

 

Another example nearly everyone can relate to: interaction with a family member, especially parents. You don't chose who your family members are and under 'normal' circumstances (I mean outside abuse and other serious issues) most people respect their parents simply for the fact that they are your parents, but not necessarily for the type of person they are in private. This leads to situations such as spending holidays with your family although you find it extremely tiresome and strenuous and would rather lie on some far away beach, yet you do it out of respect to the history and family bond (it's just one little example, I'm sure you are getting my point).

 

Interactions between 2 people are complicated and multifaceted. Very rarely you agree and respect every aspect of a person (or even in the relationship with yourself). Because there may be one particular aspect that is not according to your own definition of values, doesn't necessarily mean that it puts an end to you wanting to continue the overall interaction.

 

Thus, in your given situation, it's entirely possible (just one hypothesis of course, how would I know) that he respects your intellect and your life experience. However, once you stepped into that bedroom those aspects of you were not what he was thinking of. In that moment he most probably only saw you as a woman who could or could not provide him with the opportunity for some sexual fun. In that moment, it was about him fulfilling his need and he didn't feel obliged to make sure that your needs were met. He probably assumed/ thought that you would be able to speak up and as eloquently as in your interaction with him outside the bedroom you could voice your wants and needs and if necessary voice your disagreement.

 

Just because he respected the roommate aspect of your interaction with you and you had conversations where you shared emotional things about each other, doesn't necessarily mean that he cared to the point where he considered you an individual for whom he would care in every and any situation any given time of the day to the point where who would start thinking about your needs and wants first before thinking of himself.

 

Thus I guess what my answer in short is, is that the definition of respect is not an all-or-nothing for most people. You don't have to feel that he pretended to enjoy talking to you and that there were aspects of you that he really liked. But you didn't make it into his 'inner circle of people who he truly cares for'.

 

The other misconception many people have is that sharing/talking about emotionally vulnerable things is only possible if you care and trust (thus respect) the other person and thus if someone is willing to tell you those things it means that person must 'like you and care about you'. This is a rather limited interpretation of behavior. Actually people often find it easier to open up to someone to whom they don't have a close bond for a variety of reasons: they are not worried to be judged by someone with whom they are not sharing an emotionally vulnerable bond (i.e talking to a therapist, writing on an internet forum etc). Most people don't care being judged by a distant person, but are mainly afraid of being judged by loved ones. The opposite is equally true: you don't have to like/respect someone as an individual in order to be able to listen to them and to give them useful advice - ENA is a perfect example of that.

[capilot]

The OP got *NOTHING* out of the encounter.

 

Well, she got bragging rights. She got to sleep with someone who she thought was incredibly attractive.

 

So he turned out to be a dud in the sack. And a shallow twerp. That's the risk you take when you sleep with someone based entirely on animal attraction.

 

It seems that he uses his looks to bag any woman he wants. Guys like that don't learn to please a woman because they don't need to.

[Miss Firecracker]

I agree with all of this.

 

I also think you should write a book, TOV. You write better than most published authors.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

This is a great post. I will also add to this notion of respect that just because a man is attentive to their casual sex partner doesn't mean there is any kind of respect going on. There are many men (and women) who can play the part of attentive, caring sex partner during the sex session without it meaning anything. Just look at all the posts on here from women in FWBs who are so confused about how their partner is so attentive to them and yet still only sees them as a casual romp nothing serious. In other words, some people are very very skilled at acting and can act the part of caring lover during sex..but it is nothing. The musician you were with in your thirties...I gather he had a wife or steady girlfriend and yet there he was trolling for sexual conquests. So no matter how attentive he was in the bedroom, that really didn't make him a wonderful, caring, respectful person. I think you are tying too much into sex and viewing how someone behaves sexually as whether or not they are respectful. I am sure many cheating husbands and wives are extremely attentive to their partner on the side in the bedroom otherwise the partner on the side wouldn't stick around. However being respectful of the other person's sexual needs does not mean a person is respectful in general. How many relationships have amazing bedroom time and outside of the bedroom it is a disaster with disrespectful behaviour. Wanting to give the casual sex partner pleasure in the bedroom may have absolutely nothing to do with respecting the sex partner at all..it may have more to do with having a sense of pride of doing the "job well" a certain amount of pride in the person's bedroom skill...make the partner squeal with delight and it gives the person a sense of "wow, I am a great lover to make her squeal like that". So it can be a very egocentric thing rather than a respect for the other person thing.

[MasterPo]

Interesting experience. Thank you for sharing.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

I know someone who has had serious health issues from the time she was very young. She went down the road of these kinds of casual sexual encounters I believe also to prove that she could do it, and to feel some semblance of affection from a guy even though she realized her health issues would likely mean she would never find an actual relationship. She was used by the men and although she did get sexual gratification, after sex the men didn't want to know her until the next time they wanted sex. So while she may have proven that she can have sex and had the illusion of caring during the sex session, it still wasn't very satisfying in the long run...it got her no closer to self-satisfaction because the more she had, the more she wanted but it was never to be with these men.

 

Many women who have casual sex encounters have deeper underlying reasons than their "for public consumption" reason of "I want my needs met". Some have had a troubled childhood, some have been widowed, divorced or dumped and are looking to feel physical closeness to someone, anyone, some are in the midst or just ended an abusive relationship and want to feel like someone cares etc. Although the path to casual encounters may be different, the underlying motivation is typically the same...loneliness and feeling insecure.

[tiredofvampires]

Okay...I wanted to get to these...

 

First off, are you a writer? If not you should consider it as a career !

 

Ha...well, yes, sort of. I've done professional writing, and am definitely developing it more. Thanks...yeah, I'm just not sure what niche I fit into best...besides quasi-memoirs, quasi-advice-giving. Oh, hey! ENA!

 

You nailed SO MANY things, Quirks!!

 

Regarding your situation I think you just got carried away with your attraction to this guy. Probably because it is something so different for you. You describe him as the guy you are not usually drawn to so I wonder..is there a part of you that feels that his body and physique was out of your league? as in 'Guys like him enjoy traditionally hot/simple girls, I'm lucky he's looked at me'

 

I much as I'd rather not admit it, I think there is/was a good bit of that going on. Okay, not a "good bit." It might have been part of the driving force. Which is weird, because when I think of someone as being "out of my league", that always suggests there is some hierarchy -- where what they are exceeds me, or is superior in some way, and I definitely don't feel that just because a guy has a physique like that, that puts him on some higher rung. There is no way I feel him to be "superior", per se (except that he has his health. So on that score, maybe I have unwittingly compared myself to women [i.e., my competition] who have no troubles with their bodies, so that's where the sense of inequity lies.)

 

Certainly, I have never felt that the guys I've been attracted to more often are "lesser" in any way by comparison, that a conventionally "super hot" guy like this would out-shine them. I think the incongruity/discordance of him + me together made me feel somehow...more versatile. And THAT was the compliment, perhaps. If that makes any sense. Because I see myself as someone who wouldn't appeal to guys like that. They're a dime a dozen here, hanging out at the beach, no shirts, surf shorts...and the alpha male personality that often goes along with them clashes with me. So I've often felt just like these guys are on one planet, and I'm on the other, with their planet sometimes annoying me beyond belief because there's a good deal of conceit. (The exceptions I make are guys who have bodies like this because it's part of their career -- if they have very physically demanding jobs. I think the combination of a guy who has this sort of physique because it's part of his real life duties, plus some emotional sensitivity, is extremely attractive, for the male/female blend of traits. And the thing is about this guy, he has some shades of that potential; aspects that don't scream, "conceited dirtbag" -- he's someone who wants to treat people decently, I think, and he has not judged me in ways [the non-bedroom ways], even though a lot of people could.)

 

I've been attracted to a very wide variety of men, though.

 

I've been so immensely attracted to guys that don't look anything like that, or have that kind of energy, I can't say I was settling for something "in my league because the out-of-league alpha males wouldn't look my way." Not at ALL.

 

So given I feel this way, it's peculiar that I'd still feel "lucky" somehow that he looked my way. HOW IS THAT MAKING SENSE?? I mean, it wouldn't be such a compliment if I didn't see him as something a bit unattainable, right? So it doesn't make a whole lot of A to B sense, but I guess the best way to say it is that while it doesn't bother me that I don't attract guys like that on a regular basis (since the relationship would go nowhere), the fact that I did attract one gave me a chance to fully appreciate something that I rarely have. (Last year of college, I was briefly dating someone a bit like this, very buff, and also kind of a pushy jerk sexually, actually; we didn't last beyond a few weeks.) I guess I like feeling that I have a versatile "audience", for lack of better words...I think it's got to do with the fact that he knew I was not all that well myself, physically...and that he he knew my life was not about being in shape (though I could be conversant on the topic). I think I come off as a quirky (haha!! goofy, brainy chick, so I would think someone like him would pass me by. The fact that he was this into me, especially given my age (though I look a bit girlish, not matronly)...added up to my feeling I must have "something" I didn't think I did.

 

So yes, I felt he was out of my league in a sense, but also I can't say that even though that amounts to a compliment of sorts, that means I disparage the league I'm in. As with my story above about the musician I spent a night with, it felt great to be in the company of novelty, bestowed on me. But that doesn't make such a man "better" than me, or above me, in some fundamental way. Yet I got lucky.

 

So that's clear as a mudpuddle. lol

 

And I agree with this:

 

Plus if he wanted the sex HE should have gone and get the condoms

 

Yes, I thought the same thing when he asked if I'd gotten them. My guess is he was trying to put the ball in my court, and I'm not sure that was a smooth, sly, icky move, or something considerate (not presuming I would to have sex.) I'm unfortunately thinking the former. My therapist said she thinks he was putting the onus on me, so that it would never look like anything but my own very active/proactive volitional move. That he would simply lay the ground, and I'd step into that spot of my own accord.

 

ONS don't work for most women, even if it's someone we find hot and that's it. I tried a similar thing with a 26 year old who was sex on legs. But like your situation he wasn't caring enough and I just couldn't proceed. I felt silly at first but now I think it's best he wasn't very caring because I would have got attached.

 

I was really reassured reading this! I know ONS are not for everyone, but you hear enough about it now, it almost seems to be odd if you aren't having them (kind of like tattoos), at least at some point in your life for some reason or some phase. I'm glad I'm not the only one, haha. Thanks for sharing that, and I guess we just continue to be peas separated from the same pod.

 

What's bothering me though (maybe more on this...) is that even though he was not very caring...I still feel attached. Even if we never had a semi-fling...I'm feeling this sense of attachment.

 

I don't know if I would have felt more attached if he had hugged me back, because the limits of our liaison are so glaring to me. I almost feel that being deprived of that, though, has created more unwanted "tension" than the attachment factor would have been. I know it's hard to believe, given I'm such an emotional person, and how easily I come to feel bonded with others...but I believe that for a night or two, being touched in a sensual and attentive way...I could have dealt with that, without extrapolating.

 

I know he's not the right type of person for me, and that keeps a wall up. I think this was me feeling like a fantasy had just congealed out of ethereal vapors into fiber, blood and veins, then standing before me for the taking. And the unlikeliness was irresistible.

 

But I really would not have desired it if not for the entire context, which included the intimacy sharing our living space, and little snatches of our lives. That mundane realness of his being made him warm enough to want to touch, not just look at from afar as a male prototype with no significance.

 

 

People mutually offer pleasure even if it's an ONS. Not all people but it's down to the individual rather than the circumstance.

 

The fact that you felt attraction towards him and your body is reawakened is a great thing. It might spur you off to be more open to it from now on. Regarding him I wouldn't do anything though. Do not worry IN THE SLIGHTEST about educating him, it's not your role. If you want to say something by all means do, but I would just ignore him at this point. You are way too good for this. You are exceptional and special and it shines though your posts here. This guy doesn't have the capacity to fully be at the same level as you. Perhaps this is what drew him to you, how different you are from the other chicks he's f***ing. But he hasn't got the depth to go where you can go even physically.

 

Again...I don't think you could be more right. Great post. You're the best.

 

I have wondered this so many times.. I simply don't get that either. I end up feeling like I invented the guy.

 

When you say that last sentence...can you explain a bit more what you mean by that? (sorry this is so lost in the posts somewhere, I think it's post #30. I've had a hard time getting back to everyone, with the move underway...)

[tiredofvampires]

So.

 

I'm getting pretty sober to this situation, with these days to digest all this.

 

Today, I slid an envelope underneath his door, with a note inside. NO, not a note about this stuff. A note about some legal things I've discovered that may give him a bit of ammunition, should the landlady try to withhold any of our security deposits (something I'm very afraid of her doing, with the way she's been insinuating things with me, and a concern we've both shared.)

 

I thought he was not home, at school. I then left quickly. Not a half hour later, I get a call (not a text, his usual) from him. He said he'd just read the note I slipped him, and wanted to thank me very much for that. He said he really appreciated it, and would like to talk to me more about it. (ooh, really? goodie! MY CONSORT!) He asked if I was home and I said no, but I'd be later in the evening, if he'd be around? He said yes, he'd be there in the evening, and had a day off. Then he told me he was still there because he slept in after "a crazy, fun" Halloween night out where he works. So he missed class this morning, which he was not thrilled about. We joked about what his costume was, and we ended the call with ballparking when we'd both be home to talk more about the contents of this letter. He was talking to me in such a comfortable and solicitous way, I felt that something was restored.

 

Only when I came in tonight, he was watching the game and I appeared, said, "Hey..." and he just said, "Hey." Without looking at me. I then said, "If you want to talk about anything...let me know." He barely grunted. I went into my room where I've been ever since. And he's gone to bed.

 

So I don't know what the hell is wrong with me. Today, after that phone call, I went to my new place for the first time to move things in. I looked at the spectacular view at the tippy top of a winding road, and thought, if only I could show this view to him, show him the new place I've snagged. Serve him ice tea on that veranda. I wonder what his new place is like? He'd be so jealous. I should tell him when I leave to let me know if he ever wants to have a look at this vista. Just because.

 

No, I shouldn't. That's preposterous. When I leave here, we're done.

 

Stop trying to continue the uncontinuable.

 

But that's so sad. Why does it have to end?

 

Because it just does. Because everyone here is right. And because this is life, in all its grand disappointment. You don't get to keep a fantasy.

 

That's why this has to end.

 

LIFE STRIKES AGAIN!

 

And then, I came home to that grunt. Which seemed to seal the deal.

 

Somewhere between wishing I could, at the very 11th hour, turn the tables here and come on so hard to him, asking him if he wants his brains f'd out right (the attitude I should have taken to begin with, if I wanted a say in any of this)...and wishing I won't even see him one more day, scrub him out with the Ajax I'll use on the sink tomorrow....I'd like to find a happy middle ground of peace and resolution.

 

Even more eye-rollingly, this whole big wad of nothing is going to be a joke in just a few month's time.

[tiredofvampires]

Unless I wind up with HPV (one of the dangerous strains) in my throat, says the oral surgeon.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

ToV, it seems to me when you do casual sex you take it too seriously. From your post about the musician, you called him back hoping to have some kind of rapport with him after the deed was done..but he didn't bite. Again, you are hoping to have some kind of rapport with this guy after the fact..but he is not biting either. He is moody. You helped him, he showed gratitude, now changed his mind about wanting to talk to you about the note-related issue and gives you a grunt. In order for casual sex to be successful, there has to be no expectations of anything more than orgasm...that is what casual sex is all about..getting an orgasm...it is not about connecting, it is not about cuddles, it is not about having great talks..it is pure and simple getting the orgasm and going back to each other's own lives..to re-connect again when horny. Your expectations are more along the friendship and romance part..casual sex is not friendship and romance..there could be pretend friendship and romance in order to enhance the horniness..but it is not true friendship, romance and connection. You are looking for something a little deeper when you hook up with these kinds of guys but these guys are experts at what they do and they have a lot of experience and the type of personality to be able to turn off the brain in their head to solely focus what is between their legs. You are too deep, loyal, caring and sensitive to be satisfied and fulfilled with men like that.

[tiredofvampires]

ToV, it seems to me when you do casual sex you take it too seriously.

 

Well, the reason I don't "do" casual sex (as in, make a habit of it -- I'd hardly call 2 encounters [i'm talking about full nudity, more than just making out] in a lifetime a practice), is because I take sex more seriously as a general rule than people who are able to disconnect. If that's what you mean; though it sounds a little different how you say it.

 

I would call my "casual encounters", flukes. The musician? Fluke. Didn't go out seeking him, but he dropped into my lap as an extraordinary situation, and that was an adventure, a curiosity, of sorts. The fact that he told me he liked me and gave me his number made him like any other dude, in a way -- and with great skepticism (even dubious that he could have given me his real number) -- I decided to see if there was anything to it. I wasn't "hoping" -- I was pretty much just seeing how far he meant to go, and I was right: nowhere. So he became like any other guy who doesn't want to pursue it further after giving his number. (By the way, to answer something in another of your posts, he was single at the time, even though he had partial custody of his kids. So, no gf or wife at home. I do believe that's true, because much of the night was spent with me being something of a one-hit psychotherapist for him about his relationships, lol. It was interesting, to say the least.) I had zero disappointment in his turning me down, only feeling a little baffled as to why he'd give me his home phone number (by the way, I got onto the fan website after that, and chanced to talk to the site administrator, someone close to him, and she told me that was a highly irregular thing for him to do; so it was conceivable at the time that he meant something by that. I was completely prepared for what happened and thought it was a bit entertaining.)

 

Fast-forward to over a decade...as for this guy, as I've been saying throughout this thread...I'm feeling attached to him anyway. Notwithstanding the sex, though that's probably aggravated my inner world of demons. Which is in some ways not about him, even, as a person. And how many times do I have to say I'm not looking for romance with this guy? I can't enter into a romance with someone when there is no future in my mind. That is the definition of romance to me: a love affair that has "forever" written all over it. At least, that's the textbook definition. So going by that, I'd be out of my fricken gourd to imagine a romance with him.

 

Friendship, you may be right there. I don't like to feel that I care about someone and they don't give 3 rat's nuts about me, after a goodly amount of time dealing with some ups and downs in a living-in-close-quarters situation.

 

I'm starting to think this is a U.S.A. thing. Because when I went to Italy, I spent only days with people who said, "I love you, come stay with us again!" This is a pretty unhealthy society -- overly connected in the wrong ways, and disconnected and discarding in the right ones.

 

As for only wanting orgasms out of casual sex...I can't say I look for orgasms as my prime motive in ANY sex. I'm certainly not looking to have an orgasm from giving someone oral sex, as lovely as it is to behold them having one. You're right of course, their brains are switched off and very focused on one thing, but it seems from what I've been gathering here, "casual sex" can involve a wide range of things to include orgasm, depending on who you're with, your chemistry together, etc.

 

I'm also not sure what you're calling "casual sex." I've seen you use the terms "F-Buddy" and "FWB" interchangeably, and I think conceptually those can be very different. Both connote not having a romantic relationship goal. But one is truly a one-trick pony; the other can encompass a wide variety of arrangements and depths of relating, to include sex. So is casual to you defined as sex that is purely "stick the prong in the socket"?

 

Because if so, that's definitely his definition of it, and yet I've seen porn with more side dishes than that.

 

I'm not disagreeing with all that you're saying, CAD, it just seems that you have a slant that doesn't consider all that I've said in places, in totality.

[quirky]

Only when I came in tonight, he was watching the game and I appeared, said, "Hey..." and he just said, "Hey." Without looking at me. I then said, "If you want to talk about anything...let me know." He barely grunted. I went into my room where I've been ever since. And he's gone to bed.

 

Omg, this is SO annoying..I don't understand it.

 

And that's where my comment about 'inventing the guy' comes. You spend some time with someone and you feel a certain closeness, emotional, physical, intellectual, moral..one or more of these. And it feels very real while you are experiencing it. And then nothing. They act like it didn't happen. It is insane and you end up feeling like a crazy woman..'did I imagine all that? I FELT it, I didn't just make it up'. This is the mystery I haven't got the answer to. But I think life has introduced you to the most annoying kind of men, the FLAKEY guy... ! ! *big drum roll*

 

I'd say you're WAY too nice to him. While you're chatting about it here and with your therapist you're understanding the dynamics and clearing things up. He's not doing any of that. For all you know he was just pissed he missed his class and a bit worried about the nasty landlady. That's it.

 

I came up with this saying some years back..'Don't go looking for fish at the butcher's'. You're knocking on a dead man's door with this guy, he's not feeling/thinking any of what you are. I know this may be hard to comprehend because he displayed a certain amount of interest but I'd drop all expectations at this point. The peace and resolution will most likely come if you stand proud and true to yourself. I bet you, even if he wanted hardcore sex at this point you'd find yourself blocked and unable to proceed (happened to me with young sex-on-legs guy). You're not missing out on anything and you most likely caught up in this because you haven't had a romance in a while.

 

I can also guess that this novelty factor was there for him too at the start (quirky, brainy chick unlike others I've been with) but after you responded to his advances..I have a feeling you fell of the pedestal he had you on. Sorry if this hurts and I might be wrong..just a lot of those guys thrive on the unattainable. He'll probably respond to you better if you're now aloof and indifferent. Because with you being nice he can't see he was a jerk. He thinks 'she's cool with me, I'm not that bad'.

 

When are you leaving the drama place, are you moving today?

[Crazyaboutdogs]

Yes, I am indeed reading what you are saying. However, very often people think their situation is unique and different than the rest (I see that claim all the time on ENA) when it really is just the same old same old dressed up in a slightly different way. FBs, FWBs, one night stands..they do all amount to the same thing just packaged with a different title. Kind of like calling a secretary an administrative assistant...same job but classier title. As for romance..well, many people see the cuddles and hugs and kisses as romantic even when they are with a casual sex partner because they want the illusion of romance even if it is for a fleeting moment. However, not everyone who embarks on casual sex (like this guy) are into the fake romance..they just want to get down to the real business. You, in a sense, wanted romance (not a romantic relationship), the trappings of romance with the cuddles and hugs and kisses rather than just the sex act...he wanted just the sex act, not the romantic gestures before and after. It is two different ways of embarking on casual sex...and it is pretty typical that one person in the setup wants romantic bits thrown in (even though they don't want the actual romantic relationship) while the other person just wants to keep it to the mechanics of sex.

[truman2017]

why do you think he is not into you?

[tiredofvampires]

why do you think he is not into you?

 

Man-of-little-words-but-diehard-reader, Truman, thank you for staying afloat on this odyssey of a thread, haha.

 

At first when I read that, I had to laugh because I thought you were being facetious. Totally unserious.

 

But it occurs to me it's a serious question.

 

I hate to answer a question with a question, but how could I possibly take any of his actions, behaviors, and signals to mean not only that "he's just not that into you", but frankly, "he doesn't care more about you than he would a total stranger off the street"?

 

So this is where your previous question about male input comes in, and I'm glad you asked.

 

What kind of male input am I wanting? I think the answer is a bit vague, because all insight and feedback is welcome, but it goes something like this:

 

As a guy who may have had these kinds of experiences (or even if you haven't), what is the mentality that you'd be hanging with a girl that you think is personable and engaging (and she has even counseled you, you've exposed some moments of emotional vulnerability around other topics, etc [he actually freaked out a couple of times on me about things going on here]), and then it gets sexual and during that time, she might as well be a blow-up doll? Do you have feelings you don't wish to convey or acknowledge? Have you lost respect for her just for being sexual? How would you have viewed the extreme hesitation I had, the saying no to unprotected sex (would that have bruised your ego, given you the sense that this girl's not terribly fun, given you a higher opinion of her?)

 

How do you feel about a man not giving at all during such an episode? As in, not communicating through touch any interest in her body or making her feel good/turned on/warmed up? (as I said in my OP, I don't think my body would turn most guys off, though I'm not toned, and I'm soft; I'm slim and hourglassy, so I don't think he would be avoiding my body, per se, for being off-putting [unless he's pickier than it appears about my imperfections]).

 

Is this your idea of casual sex? Or just BAD casual sex?

 

I know you're not in his head, and no guy can totally speak for another guy in situations that seem similar. But I'm just brainstorming things I'd ask this guy and can't.

 

So, continuing on...do you think having a woman that he really cares about/loves would explain his "approach" (for lack of better words), all by itself?

 

Do you have any guesses as to why he'd hit on me in the first place, given the dynamic was not heavily flirtatious before that, and given any night of the week he could get easier sex with girls falling all over him (who don't live with him, which makes it pretty awkward to walk away)?

 

Is it a player move or just a horny guy move, where some selectivity was going on (because he liked me/felt familiar in some way?)

 

How would it have changed the outcome (for better or worse) if I had actually had sex with him? Or would it have? I think this is one of the more nagging questions. What sort of impressions does a guy have if he's had an amazing few pamperings, but the woman has not allowed him to have penetrative sex? (and as was brought up before, why wouldn't he have provided condoms if he wanted this to happen?)

 

How much does a guy get out of such an encounter when there is NOTHING but hardcore, basic fing? Is it really that great for you guys? I don't see how that couldn't get old.

 

Do you concur with the ladies of this thread that this guy's a douchebag? Can a guy pull of something like this WITHOUT being a douchebag?

 

What do you make of his running out like that after the first time?

 

So, hehe, that's a lot of questions, so don't feel you have to answer them all, if it's too burdensome. Any or all of the above, or other points I haven't brought up that come out of your own life experience.

 

I could probably rattle 'em off all day. The main thing is, what is happening behind the curtain here (his skull) that you may have some better understanding of, as a guy, that I'm not accessing here.

 

You said you've had some experiences you're ashamed of. What sorts of things make you feel ashamed in a sexual encounter?

 

Do they resemble any of these elements with *my* guy here?

[tiredofvampires]

And also, Truman, were you in his situation now, what would you like to see happen now (we have eachother's phone #'s, we're going to be parting, but this is not a geographically giant separation that will happen [implication: hanging out as friends would not be hard, if the will was there] we still have a couple of days here to see/be around eachother with the undertone of sexual tension that can't be undone [and he doesn't know I have condoms, but I do]), and what would you respect most (as well as respond to best) in my behavior?

 

(I have a good idea from the ladies here, so it's your turn as a guy.)

 

And again, I realize that you are only your own personal opinion here.

 

Mind you, I am not basing my actions and decision here on what this guy wants. That has to come from my own internal locus. But knowing would be infinitely better than feeling this in the dark, if any bit of it could be elucidated.

[pl3asehelp]

I'm not Truman obviously, but I think your goal of getting him to respect you and having him respond 'best' are at odds. To get him to respect you, you're going to have to tell him he's a cad. Obviously he won't respond well to that. He knows he is and it only works for him when people let him behave that way. Behaving the way he is, respect is not what he's after.

[tiredofvampires]

Omg, this is SO annoying..I don't understand it.

 

It's really vexing, isn't it??

 

I love your "sex-on-legs" -- I've got this mental image of two stick-like legs with a giant penis whirling around above them. No joke, this guy is that, quirky. But I don't know -- find me an alpha male-type between the ages of 16 and...30...no....35 (conservatively) who is NOT "sex-on-legs", and I'll find you chocolate fudge that's non-fattening.

 

And that's where my comment about 'inventing the guy' comes. You spend some time with someone and you feel a certain closeness, emotional, physical, intellectual, moral..one or more of these. And it feels very real while you are experiencing it. And then nothing. They act like it didn't happen. It is insane and you end up feeling like a crazy woman..'did I imagine all that? I FELT it, I didn't just make it up'. This is the mystery I haven't got the answer to. But I think life has introduced you to the most annoying kind of men, the FLAKEY guy... ! ! *big drum roll*

 

OH, I see what you're saying. Yeah, I totally get it. I definitely feel like, how could you (he) be as if completely unaffected by any of this??

 

And FLAKEY is the word, too. But that, I had some misgivings about even before this sexual element got thrown into the mix. For instance, with the apartment hunting, he sounded really gung-ho about looking for places together, and while he alerted me to the fact that he might want to find his own studio (not share with a roomate), and would be looking for those places as well, he didn't inform me that he had fully decided on that and decided against a common move together until I brought up to him some of my leads of places we could take a look at. I mean, wth, that was a waste of my time! He could have told me as soon as he'd decided he wanted to fly solo, instead of me continuing to hunt for places that had multiple bedrooms. Me, I would have told him immediately what my change of plans was, so as not to waste his time.

 

Also, he has a driving record with a DUI (over which he lost his car, because of the damage it sustained) but then went out driving a motorcycle without the paperwork on it, because he was "desperate" for a vehicle to get him around; a cop cited him, said he'd let him off, but he's had to appear in court over these events and he STILL was riding a scooter (we live up a big, somewhat remote hill so it's a huge pain for him to commute just by bus and bike), pushing his luck. If he were to get caught riding a motorized vehicle at this point, he'd go to jail, which would ruin his life. But he's pushed his luck. Like I said, taking chances, playing chicken with the Devil -- because of the youthful invincibility factor. Like he can live above the rules, or make the science of probabilities kind to him.

 

FLAKEY. So there were a few things I'd say I did not respect about him, I suppose (thinking of your post Penelope, about the complexity of "respect", which was a point very well-taken.) I see a lot of this as "youthful indiscretion", all of this. Life teaches people though, and he's learning, because you can't go through life and test luck without it eventually running out on you. But that's part of why I wouldn't want a romantic relationship with him -- too much yet to learn to feel on a par. Among other things. Even if he were super mature for his age, which he's not, there would be all the other incongruities -- age itself (and therefore, life goals -- he seems like the type that once he gets his ya-ya's out, he'll want to marry, maybe have kids), and interests and social circles that don't match well enough.

 

I'd say you're WAY too nice to him. While you're chatting about it here and with your therapist you're understanding the dynamics and clearing things up. He's not doing any of that. For all you know he was just pissed he missed his class and a bit worried about the nasty landlady. That's it.

 

Well if I'm reading too much into his mood, then I can't really criticize him, right? But about being too nice to him: I'm thinking this is part of the problem. I'm like one of those guys here who complains of being a "nice guy" (read: doormat, no spine) and I wonder if the same thing is going on a bit here, with gender roles reversed -- at least in his perception. Is he losing respect for me because I've been "a giver", in his words?

 

I don't think I've been a doormat -- I've been available when I said I would be, I've done a few favors for him because this is what I'd like people to do for me if they could. I gave him a ride when he had no car. I gave him tips on how to approach the landlady about his ladyfriend, and came in with him as a witness of the encounter, to support him. I've given him some legal info to use if he has to, unasked-for. Things of this nature are what I feel that GOOD PEOPLE do. So I wouldn't go back and change any of it.

 

On the other hand, I'd like to change the perception that people have that I'm "too nice", if that's the case. Because actually, I can and do roll up my sleeves and fight fire with fire if/when I have to.

 

I'm just not sure what I'd change here? I don't want to play games...you know, act a certain way that is not me just to demonstrate something here, or prove a point.

 

ANYWAY, my plan is to move out on Sunday. I have to do some final cleaning and have a friend help me move some stuff, so it's somewhat dependent on that. The very last day would be Tuesday, but Sunday is my aim.

 

Steam cleaning the carpets would be the last chore, and then handing over the keys. Then, I want him to be here so I can say goodbye. I don't know what I'll do if he's not here, because I at least want to give him a hug goodbye, and leave my hippie stamp of love 'n' peace, lol.

 

I'M DREADING IT.

[truman2017]

I have always enjoyed reading this type thread and my interest has increased in personal stories since The Guiding Light went off the air. I have a leather coat that is 26 years old but I remember what that was like......having the chiseled body and women at my beckon call, not so much.

 

I suspect he might be a bit inexperienced at the part where it comes to intimacy part. When I was 26 thoughts of being with a woman 44 would have scared me to no end. I suspect he initially got caught up in the moment and has had second thoughts....maybe he doesn't want to use condoms because skin to skin gives him a power over a woman, you know, " i got her to do it without, the way I like it." I remember being real lazy when it came to that stuff...I figured every woman should be on the Pill.

 

I think he hit on you because by living with you he may have developed a crush as well, he took his shot when the the situation occurred and maybe it is awkward seeing you in the same house. you being there makes him now uncomfortable, and he is acting a bit rude and standoffish

 

As for if having sex would have kept him around, probably not if he is getting it elsewhere.....me on the other hand I am coming back the next night if dinner was served.

 

I think he was a horny player, a douchebag for the rude behavior when you tried to talk to him.

 

Part of me may think he doesn't want to treat you as a fling, you are not a drunken, faceless bar pick up...he knows you and doesn't want to hurt you with a sexual or intimate involvement, including friendly conversation. It is easier to have hard core sex with strangers than "friends" IMO

 

As for the things I am ashamed of it usually had to do with alcohol and never calling the day after......how I was serviced by the lady in question never was the issue