It can happen if you really get your act together

[Danmasta]

THIS is incredibly well written and though out. I love it, thank you so much for writing it here. I think I am on the same path as you were in understanding that I just did not have myself together, and only one of us needs to get it together to make it work. I have been learning the same techniques as you, the mirroring, making my partner feel safe, validation, and am slowly becoming more aware of how stable I need to be in order to make her and our relationship stable.

 

What I can tell you is that my belief is that any form of punishment, invalidation, or withholding does not lead to real love and healing. It is wounding that lead to the struggle and the separation. Continuing the hurt and inability to understand your partner can not get it back.

I agree 100% --Giving up or punishing is only going to lead to giving up and more punishing. We may never be together again, but there is no reason why I should stop learning, validating, and helping us both heal.

[tacs1895]

SB - I hear what you are saying. I'm not putting my life on hold waiting for that to come from her, I am still taking responsibility for doing everything I can in my control to help myself heal. I just believe that something coming from her would be helpful also. I guess the trust issue for me is important for whatever future relationship I have with my ex - whether that be friendship of some kind, or something more. Trust wasn't an issue while we were together. But yes, of course, it's important that she didn't feel the same way as she used to - that's most important thing, of course I can't make her feel any differently if that's just how she feels, and of course she shouldn't have stayed if she felt she had to leave. I don't blame her for that. Unfortunately, that fact that she doesn't feel that way any more is incredibly painful for me. And what makes it harder to deal with is the lack of any real explanation for it. She just wasn't able to tell me. That is why I still crave some openness from her, and wonder if I should still try to initiate some kind of conversation where she might be able offer a bit more perspective. Danmasta's post above also makes me think about this. The use the Al Turtle type lingo - I want to try to invite her to share, I don't want to withhold my feelings from her (I don't mean I'm going to blab on about how much I love her, but I want to share my experience and where I'm at). With regard to the openness that I keep mentioning, I feel that there is still some withholding from her side, and I want to invite her to move away from that. Part of my current frustration is with her lack of forthcomingness since the breakup, and maybe I can invite her to improve on that. Maybe that might even be a way for her to help me with my healing. I have no doubt that she wants me to be ok, because she is a caring person, and I can see that much of her actions are influenced by trying to allow me space and so on. But maybe that would all be too painful for her, and she wouldn't want to. She has to look after herself also, that's fair enough.

 

As for finding someone else who offers more.... well, she will be hard to beat. I'm not saying there's nobody else out there, I don't believe in a single soulmate. But I believe there are only a few people who could offer that true connection that we certainly had at some point (and which I had never had in any previous relationship). But I'm glad for you, SB, if you're at a place where you can see opportunities.

[MissMazzi]

I just want to say: thankyou so much for putting those URLs out there. They're so helpful and useful.

 

So whilst I have alot to digest on and correct a few of my behaviour patterns, I also feel alot more better about myself. Some of the non-empathy descriptions match my ex up to a T, and therefore I no longer feel like it was just *me* who drove the relationship to a halt. And I definitely shouldn't feel ashamed for having emotions I was always being told that emotions were "illogical and stupid" etc. I feel so much better and more confident now!!!

[Silverbirch]

Hugs Tac,

I've been where you're at. Like they say, "Nothing is set in stone". There is the possibility that you and your ex will eventually get back together. I really like Al Turtles site and his advice. I was under the impression though that you really need to take time in working to open up communication and not perpetuate the "push-pull". Anyway, like I said, I don't want to torture anyone who doesn't want to stay with me, but I've known a few women who have delighted in torturing their exes by occasionally letting them see what they missed out on! From what I can see, they have certainly achieved the desired effect! Wish you all the best.

[tacs1895]

Hugs Tac,

I've been where you're at. Like they say, "Nothing is set in stone". There is the possibility that you and your ex will eventually get back together. I really like Al Turtles site and his advice. I was under the impression though that you really need to take time in working to open up communication and not perpetuate the "push-pull". Anyway, like I said, I don't want to torture anyone who doesn't want to stay with me, but I've known a few women who have delighted in torturing their exes by occasionally letting them see what they missed out on! From what I can see, they have certainly achieved the desired effect! Wish you all the best.

 

Thanks for the kind thoughts, SB. There was one bit of your post though which I'm not sure I really understood, which I put in bold above... and also wasn't quite sure if you were saying it as general advice, or whether you meant me specifically based on what you've read in my posts.... care to explain a bit more?

[tacs1895]

In the context of letting go with love, and of creating the best possible chances for a reconciliation somewhere down the line.... what are people's thoughts on understanding the breakup?

 

I feel like I have learned a lot in the last half a year, and that I know ways I am trying to improve - for me most things come back to communication and self-confidence/belief. But at the same time I still feel so confused about what happened, particularly from her side. It came very suddenly (even though with hindsight I can see some of the issues) and I've been left without any real explanation from her about her side. All she could say was that we'd lost something, that even though she loved me she didn't feel attracted to me like she should. But she couldn't explain any more. And I can understand that maybe it just wasn't possible for her to explain. Not everything can be explained in words. But I've just found it so hard to understand and I feel it's holding me back from fully moving on. I've been considering asking her if she would be open to talking about it some more... I don't know what she'd say, but I do know that she would want to help if she can.... but for her own sake she may not want to have a conversation like that, in which case I certainly wouldn't pressurise her.... Having just spent a week away with her (check my threads...) I feel sure that there is still much affection and caring between us.... whether this is enough for a relationship I don't know.... I guess what we lost was that spark, and I know that I was partly responsible for that because of my life circumstances getting me down (and I feel that maybe the same was partly true for her at that time also).... I'd like to think it's possible for it to be recovered, maybe one day... But for now we are apart, and I have to accept that. Will understanding more help me? I know it's impossible to understand anything completely, but in my situation I still feel that there is more that I could understand, that she could explain (if she were willing). My friends and therapist say that for me to ask her is not unreasonable. She might not want to, in which case I wouldn't push her, but she might be willing to, in which case maybe it would help me. It is a long time since I've asked her so it's not like I've been pushy the whole time. It's seven months since the breakup, and three months since we last discussed anything about the relationship. I could decide not to ask any further, but then there will always be this hole, this gap, this feeling of not knowing what on earth really happened.... And that in itself seems like an obstacle to any potential reconciliation because that sense of not knowing will always be there, and cause some level of resentment. I believe it would be possible to reach a place where I can let go of, to accept the not knowing, and to be free of resentment.... But I also believe it might be easier if she could help me by explaining some more........

[mhowe]

The horse is dead --- stop beating it. You pushing her to "help you understand" is totally unreasonable. You are putting all of the responsibilty for "fixing" you on the shoulders of others...if only they could explain more/better/again. If you can see some of the issues, work on them. You don't need to know everything to start making improvements in yourself.

[NCforME]

If she offers up a feeling then go with it but I wouldn't bug her about it.

 

BTW, it sound like you and me tacs had similar situations. My ex couldn't explain it either. She said we are best friends but that's it. This comment has been very common from women in break ups. Men seem to really have a hard time understanding it. The problem is many women especially younger women need to be in romantic relationships and all romantic relationships eventually end. At least in that honeymoon sense. Many women have a problem with this and they don't even see it. They just see that their attraction is gone so something must be wrong but truth is, its natural. That's where the work in successful relationship comes in, from that point you have to work on romance and communication.

[thelastsong]

If she offers up a feeling then go with it but I wouldn't bug her about it.

 

BTW, it sound like you and me tacs had similar situations. My ex couldn't explain it either. She said we are best friends but that's it. This comment has been very common from women in break ups. Men seem to really have a hard time understanding it. The problem is many women especially younger women need to be in romantic relationships and all romantic relationships eventually end. At least in that honeymoon sense. Many women have a problem with this and they don't even see it. They just see that their attraction is gone so something must be wrong but truth is, its natural. That's where the work in successful relationship comes in, from that point you have to work on romance and communication.

 

It isn't just a female thing. My ex pulled the same card on me. I think it's an immaturity thing.

[Silverbirch]

Thanks for the kind thoughts, SB. There was one bit of your post though which I'm not sure I really understood, which I put in bold above... and also wasn't quite sure if you were saying it as general advice, or whether you meant me specifically based on what you've read in my posts.... care to explain a bit more?

 

Sorry Tacs, I have hardly been on this site of late and so didn't see your post. I think as far as Al Turtle's philosophies go, he would advise against offering her the opportunity to discuss the previous/present relationship with you or aspects of your healing. Because she chose to withdraw from the relationship, she would very likely construe that invitation as a type of pushing coming from you and would likely withdraw again. I'm sure that Al Turtle does give advice on how to make reconnection, and that is usually very gradual, very brief at first, and you have to basically begin a NEW relationship with that person. That's just my understanding of him and what he suggests.

[ngu11]

The horse is dead --- stop beating it. You pushing her to "help you understand" is totally unreasonable. You are putting all of the responsibilty for "fixing" you on the shoulders of others...if only they could explain more/better/again. If you can see some of the issues, work on them. You don't need to know everything to start making improvements in yourself.

 

Agreed...it's a simple path. Work on getting yourself happy - if you get there you see what was lacking previously. This helps to shed light on potential causes of the break up. It's a beautifully selfish learning curve!

 

Your need for her to explain specifically what happened has curtailed your movements forward. Closure is something we give ourselves, it never comes from them.

[Sim54]

It isn't just a female thing. My ex pulled the same card on me. I think it's an immaturity thing.

 

I agree it's a maturity thing, but I know a lot of guys who after a breakup stay single for much longer than their exe's who are quickly involved with another guy. There may be a number of factors to this. It does seem easier for a woman to get a guy than the other way around. But then again, perhaps it just the people I know. I know, and am, a 'nice guy' and we don't bounce back so easily. We also tend to date needy women who move quickly to someone else to heal from the break up. My last two exes are cases in point. I simply can't move on that quickly, and choose to heal slowly now.

 

I don't want to sound 'women this, men that', because in the end, what matters most, as you pointed out, is emotional maturity, above all other things.

[Sim54]

Agreed...it's a simple path. Work on getting yourself happy - if you get there you see what was lacking previously. This helps to shed light on potential causes of the break up. It's a beautifully selfish learning curve!

 

Your need for her to explain specifically what happened has curtailed your movements forward. Closure is something we give ourselves, it never comes from them.

 

Totally agree! Tacs, you're still acting like you two are together, which is natural considering you are still close in some way, but that is clearly going to hinder not help you, move forward. A period of no contact is almost always needed to put time and space between a breakup, and in the end understanding will come when it's ready, on it's own, without her. And yes, I doubt she could put it in words, and certainly not any that would ultimately help you. You could easily become defensive and it would spiral out of control.

 

Stick to the harder but more rewarding path of doing it alone. The easy, comfort route never gets you anyway. There is pain in growth. Try to relish it. It's a sign of good things.

[NCforME]

It isn't just a female thing. My ex pulled the same card on me. I think it's an immaturity thing.

 

I mean I do agree with you, guys do it as well. But, I think because of the media culture in the US and much of the western world women are at a disadvantage (divorce rate in japan ~ 1.5%). Men are sort of lucky because we grow with less expectation of what a relationship or marriage will bring. Women on the other hand have deep seeded expectations that they pin on relationships. That's most divorces are filed by women. Not that the man has no role. Its just frustrating battle because we have no expectations of how relationship should function (not good) and women tend to have to much (not good either). So we are left to meet in middle. Those who can, have fulfilling relationships.

 

I think as parents to our future or current children we should make sure they do realize what a relationship really means. Many people smack their heads up against a brick wall trying to attain something that is unrealistic. I think too many people in our generation really are spoiled (men and women). I used to think the news was cynical towards our generation but the older I get and the more people I meet from it I realize we really are because I was raised as a very non spoiled person. To accept the faults of others and face your own.

 

Too many people out there think they don't have to work for something special.

[Nick Lansing]

I agree it's a maturity thing, but I know a lot of guys who after a breakup stay single for much longer than their exe's who are quickly involved with another guy. There may be a number of factors to this. It does seem easier for a woman to get a guy than the other way around. But then again, perhaps it just the people I know. I know, and am, a 'nice guy' and we don't bounce back so easily. We also tend to date needy women who move quickly to someone else to heal from the break up. My last two exes are cases in point. I simply can't move on that quickly, and choose to heal slowly now.

 

I don't want to sound 'women this, men that', because in the end, what matters most, as you pointed out, is emotional maturity, above all other things.

 

It's funny, every time I've been dumped there's been another guy involved somehow. When I told the story of my latest breakup to a number of women, most suggested (correctly, as it turns) that another guy was involved. Other people have told me women usually don't leave a (non-abusive, non-cheating) relationship until a replacement is lined up.

[Sim54]

It's funny, every time I've been dumped there's been another guy involved somehow. When I told the story of my latest breakup to a number of women, most suggested (correctly, as it turns) that another guy was involved. Other people have told me women usually don't leave a (non-abusive, non-cheating) relationship until a replacement is lined up.

 

I do think it's dangerous to generalise. Some women do, and they tend to be the more needy low self esteem ones. Others, and I know some, get and stay single until they meet a good guy, how ever long that takes. They don't NEED to have sex all the time.

[Nick Lansing]

I do think it's dangerous to generalise. Some women do, and they tend to be the more needy low self esteem ones. Others, and I know some, get and stay single until they meet a good guy, how ever long that takes. They don't NEED to have sex all the time.

 

I know, and it's true that in my case I have tended to gravitate to needier, more emotionally vulnerable women.

 

I've never broken up wth anyone and had someone waiting in the wings though... I've had rebounds for sure, but it took a long time for me to form another bond generally

[NCforME]

It's funny, every time I've been dumped there's been another guy involved somehow. When I told the story of my latest breakup to a number of women, most suggested (correctly, as it turns) that another guy was involved. Other people have told me women usually don't leave a (non-abusive, non-cheating) relationship until a replacement is lined up.

 

In my experience with friends and such it does seem to be true in about half of the cases. I'm sorry to hear that it has happened to you every time. My ex just started seeing someone 5 months after we ended. But they just met two weeks ago. Which to me, after a serious relationship still seems a bit quick. Personally I don't think it will last. I just think she did jump on the first acceptable guy. I mean not offend any blue collar workers but I can't imagine a girl with a Masters degree is going to find happiness with guy who does underwater construction. I mean it doesn't really reap of long term growth prospect for her. I think girls tend to move to guys that they don't have to worry about the future with in a rebound (subconsciously of course) and I know guys do that as well. We just call them friends with benefits instead of defining a shame relationship around it and fooling ourselves we would actually marry this person. I mean I have a fwb right now. While she is a fun girl to hang with we both realize we want completely different lives in the future so no need calling it a real relationship.

[NCforME]

I know, and it's true that in my case I have tended to gravitate to needier, more emotionally vulnerable women.

 

 

This is one point I think should be in bold! I definitely do the same thing. I tend to go after women who are not necessarily needy but I know have a strong ability to just become uninterested and just walk away. Girls who are less likely to work on a relationship. I see that now and certainly I will be changing my screening process myself.

[Nick Lansing]

Hey, me too! Well, kind of. I mean, my ex has a masters degree, is well-read and somewhat sophisticated, and works as an architect. The guy she is with is a motorcycle mechanic who never went to college, and who doesn't appear to be particularly clever or thoughtful. Again, no offense meant to anyone -- but I do think similar education level/ intellectual curiosity are major components of compatibility. She also told me he was a little dumb for her tastes and had the emotional maturity of a 12-year old. She also told me, while breaking up with me, that she hoped he (her ex) didn't think this meant she was getting back with him, as he had been pining for her lik a puppy dog...

 

So I'm not sure if she broke up with me for him, or if she just turned to him for comfort/ a warm body/ whatever... I think more the latter than the former actually.

 

And I too have someone I'm seeing/ sleeping with in the wake of the breakup. She's a sweet person, and it's not clear how she sees our relationship. I haven't led her on but I haven't mentioned the ex either.

[NCforME]

Haha....yeah your ex sounds like a definite pure rebound. If she said those things before there is no way that things have really changed. I agree with the education thing. I mean I would try to never pigeon whole people but typically I want some one who is on the same level as me. There's a difference in having fun right now and lining yourself up to grow with some one for 60 years. That requires a pretty deep connection.

[Silverbirch]

Well, I for one am definitely dumber than my ex. I have a BA and he has a masters. Did try for his pHd, but it didn't work out. He didn't get his degree until later in life. Went back to school when his children were young. His wife had a degree as a health professional before he had any type of qualification. The thing is, and this caused problems in his marriage, once he got his qualifications, from what I can make out, he became very arrogant and patronising in many ways (he's a psychologist LOL !!!!!!!). I know he has been with at least one woman who he considered his intellectual equal, and it was disastrous. Only lasted a few weeks.

 

There are different types of smarts, and thing is that there are a lot of people out there who are brilliant and have no qualifications. Most of them simply didn't have the opportunities of education. I see many of those people at least smart in the ways that count. Being able to hold a conversation in existential philosophy means nothing to me if you are an a64ehole.

 

When I was at uni, I had a love/hate relationship with the university and all it stands for. I was invited to apply to undertake a pHd in International Development. All that meant to me was that the university was continuing it's commercial push to keep making money and to keep it's lecturers in employment.

 

Many of the men I've known who are highly educated do seem to have a few probs with some of the very ordinary stuff like tying shoelaces LOL! Guess it depends on what type of smarts you value most.

[NCforME]

Well Silverbirch, It doesn't really sound like you were dumber than your ex. It just sounds like he was more arrogant about it. But, I would say typically from relationships I see, if some one is smarter in the relationship it should probably be the guy. Not too many girls will stick with a guy who has rocks for brains very long. Unless they equivalently have rocks or pebbles for brains.

 

There are three types of "smarts" as you put that I consider: intelligence, creativity, and emotional. I'm not saying that you have to be equal in all three but there also can't be a huge disparity in either. But again from what I've found when a women is too much smarter than the man it won't last long. That's why smart women always have a hard time in relationships because they will start to lose attraction to a man if she feels she is smarter than him. This is because if she is she'll end up feeling like his mother instead of his girlfriend. So, maybe that one women who HE considered his intellectual equal did not feel the same for him, which causeed things to be disastrous.

 

Also you're right its not just about the degree. But, when someone doesn't chances are they won't share too many interest. For instance my ex loved art so we would go to exhibits. I could stand my own there but wasn't really my world but I understood it. It was her interest. When someone doesn't have much of an education they tend not to be able to share interests in as many things. Obviously this is a generalization but its pretty good one. From what I understand he's not the type to take her to the Guggenheim to see the and exhibit on neoclassicism. But then again sometimes there were problems in our relationship because not to sound too arrogant about it but I wished she was smarter sometimes. And she wished I would remember to tie my shoes haha.

[lemsip]

 

There are three types of "smarts" as you put that I consider: intelligence, creativity, and emotional.

 

Thanks, I'd never though about it this way before... Out of 10 I reckon I'd give myself a 7/9/5

I need to get my emotional nature together, I became too needy in the end. Never again!

[Nick Lansing]

Yeah i know. I've always done well in school and on standardized tests but emotionally I'm pretty dumb I know this. Also I'm hopeless at home projects and auto repair and the like.

 

But I do think people generally are more compatible with people of similar backgrounds. You don't want your double, of course, but similar interests, similar sensbilities, similar values, similar tastes. Being able to converse on the same level. The stuff about being kind to one another and treating each other with respect and consideration goes without saying, but to me it's hard to imagine long-term compatibility without having those other things too.