The big can of worms... taking lovers that are "under" you on the dating ladder:

[sukerbut]

DAVID..i was in a true relationship with my ex ex for 7 years..we both grew together...we started with nothing and we both succeded in our jobs etc.. and thats why to this day i love her so much..we grew together..we both witnessed hardships and overcome them..our lifestyles transformed before our eyes..on both our parts..she was the one , she is the only woman that i trust with my life..i hurt her so bad and let her go .. becasue i wanted this one. to this day if i asked her to marry me she would..but i lost that spark..aS messed up as it sounds i dont even want to kiss her..i love her like a sister. its weird because our growing together drove me away from her..its messed up stuff .. soemtimes its good to tasste your own poison. and dont let anyone say otherwise..your post is so on the money! it seems 17 months is the time frame for this type of care taker relationship..we dated 7 months casually...and then in jan .. she was i want to be exclusivly your g/f..i would not say this if i did not think i could marry you..RIGHT!! its weird..i guess she neeeds to grow and she cant if i am there coaching her every move..my bad for making the relationship so intense..i should of know .. i am the adult here.

[Da5id]

That is so strange...

 

You, me and Chaos have all had 7 year relationships with the same traits and all have 18 month excursions of this type.

 

What's up with that?

[sukerbut]

weird man! ... she called again today...i mean liek get a life..it does not even bother me any more..i chatted with her for a minute then i let her go.. i m too busy picking my nose..you know whats great..i felt know emotions..0 ! nothing..so why not be the better man...i am way over no contact..now i want her to know while she is waiting tables on the weekends i am still living my lux life..right now i am loving it..dude when you said the time frame with your ex..and you posted exactly what happened to be my situation i was like woa..i like this guy. you ever coming to ny give me send me a pm..

[renaissancewoman101]

The thing is in relationships like this where one person feels as though they are "beneath" or "inferior" to the other person, and the relationship ends because of this, is their anyway, to anybody's knowledge, to patch up a relationship like this??? In my relation, both my ex and I were caretaker personalities. I was the first person he ever dated that was doing better than he was. Like me, he likes to choose people to date who are in a worse situation than he is in, so he can "rescue" or "caretake" them. Unfortuanetly, in our situation we are both caretakers and we both feel uncomfortable being taken cared of.

 

Right now, my new friend, who is also a good friend of the ex's, she is also caretaker and a rescuer, that is why she does counseling for troubled teens and runs an outreach program for them. She likes to "caretake" me and take me under her wings, which is something new to me, but I let her do that because I feel very vulnerable nowadays.

 

I still do want the ex back, but wished that there was a way that I could make him not feel inferior to me.

[Da5id]

I really really wish I could give you some words of encouragement here.... but I must say. I tried everything. I mean every single thing I could think of aside from just plain treating my ex poorly. Which... I swear to god, and I know it sounds sick... I think is the only thing she actually responds to.

 

But I mean it, I used every ounce of willpower and every bit of my intellect and energy to try and work things out in this situation and I have failed every single time.

 

I even went back for more with my most recent ex and all I got was more pain... worse than ever.

 

Maybe this is only my experience, but it is my truth.

 

Sorry

[fireflies]

Article: Should A-List Girls Marry for Love?

 

 

I don't think the problem is a matter of "dating down" so much as a matter of "imbalance" (givers vs. takers) and issues of incompatibility. In essense it's about how WELL two people treat each other. One may come from a higher socioeconomic class or bring in more money, but as long as the other is contributing to the relationship in other vital ways, and both individuals feel valued and cherished for their contributions, it shouldn't be a problem.

 

The problem comes from mistakenly believing that

1) one person's contribution is more valuable than the other and thereforeeee they're "owed" loyalty, love, etc.

2) love can ever be "earned", "bought", "deserved", or "insured"

3) anything good can grow from one person doing all the giving while the other simply "takes." People in love want to make each other happy. "Taking" is the antithesis of love.

 

Bottom line: If the two people involved were emotionally connected, shared common interests/values ,and cherished each other, dating up or down wouldn't even be a question.

[renaissancewoman101]

Fireflies, I see your point of view and the issues that you point out are very valid to this argument. I can empathize with a few of your issues you point out. With my relationship with my ex, I tried to "insure" the relationship by "buying" his love. I mistakenly thought that the more I did for him I could keep him around because it would make him feel beholden to me. He pointed out to me, once that he was with me because he loved and cared about me, not because I could "buy" his love. I also thought that since I did so much for him that he "owed" me love and an obligation to stay in my life. That didnt work out because he still left me, although towards the end of our relationship, I was doing more of the taking than the giving because my feelings for him had changed.

 

Da5id, I do understand your point of view about "treating the SO badly" because towards the end of the relationship, I treated him badly and he chased after me incessantly and strongly. Sadly, that didnt really change my feelings for him, but at the end when my feelings did warm up to him, he had had enough and he decided to quit the relationship and find a new SO.

 

Da5id, at least you were able to go back for more. I want to patch things up with the ex, but he is adamant about not dating me again, and now he has a new gf. There is no way to get him back because there is no way for him to respond to me treating him badly now or goodly now.

 

I may see the ex this Sat because I am goingto be at a furry convention this weekend to hang out with the lady friend (who is a friend of his). Unfort, I think he is bringing his new SO with him. The lady friend wants to try and help us get back together and she is my only hope. My ex trusts her and does listen to her because she has counseled him through some bad times in his life. She is my only hope of some sort of reconciliation. But with the new gf around that may be hard.

[RayKay]

 

Bottom line: If the two people involved were emotionally connected, shared common interests/values ,and cherished each other, dating up or down wouldn't even be a question.

 

Bingo! I agree wholeheartedly

[Da5id]

 

I don't think the problem is a matter of "dating down" so much as a matter of "imbalance" (givers vs. takers) and issues of incompatibility. In essense it's about how WELL two people treat each other. One may come from a higher socioeconomic class or bring in more money, but as long as the other is contributing to the relationship in other vital ways, and both individuals feel valued and cherished for their contributions, it shouldn't be a problem.

 

That is one way to look at it... and imbalance is the end result, but it's mearly a symptom in my mind and not the condition that drives these circumstances.

 

Now, I knew certain people would take offense to the concept of "dating down the ladder" but what you are describing as far as reciprocity is concerned is EXACTLY what I was so desperately searching for.

 

There was an imbalance in my relationships because of far more than money. While I was the financially stable factor in all of these and did spend a lot trying to do romantic things like trips, nice restaurants etc, I was also much smarter, more educated and light years ahead when it comes to communication and working on myself. Owning up to my own character defects and being able to place myself in the other person's shoes.

 

Sadly for me, the women I had chosen still had a lot of growing to do.

 

Unfortunately, in the face of all this, the imbalance you speak of was created... not immediately, but it began to rear it's ugly head about 8 months into a wonderful relationship. How does one identify this before they get into a relationship?

 

I remember asking my friends... "When is the line crossed? When do you walk away from someone? Is this it? Is this too much?"

 

Now... there are many people that are saying "Well... just pick women that are more on your level then!"

 

Um... duh!

 

My problem... and the problem many here are identifying with, is the fact that I am attracted to, and keep falling in love with/ending up in relationships with people like I have described.

 

The problem comes from mistakenly believing that

1) one person's contribution is more valuable than the other and thereforeeee they're "owed" loyalty, love, etc.

 

I disagree. To me, love and loyalty were FAR more valuable than money, flowers and trips etc. In fact, it's all I wanted in return... unfortunately, I stopped getting it at some point.

 

So... if you are putting all of your energy, time, love and money... every 3rd thought in your head is one of your partner. Do you think you would not be disappointed if you were not receiving love, loyalty etc? You really believe that "The problem comes from mistakenly believing that?"

 

Attributes like, love, loyalty, kindness, affection. These are what distinguish a relationship. The real question to me is... what do you do when you realize they are slowly being taken away?

 

Some people leave promptly. Some people (like me) stay and try everything they can to save the sinking ship.

 

2) love can ever be "earned", "bought", "deserved", or "insured"

 

So, what do you suggest when the person that told you 3 months ago that they "can't live with out you" begins to slowly pull away?

 

I know personally, in my case, I have tried every single one of the things you have mentioned above. I have tried to make that person love me. I tried to be the most wonderful man I could be to them.

 

Once again, perfect opportunity for the obvious patrol... (You can never make someone love you.)

 

I loved this person, and regardless of the financial status, education or ability to communicate their feelings or look at their character defects, I was willing to do anything to make things work.

 

And I did... try everything that is. Not make it work.

 

 

 

Bottom line: If the two people involved were emotionally connected, shared common interests/values ,and cherished each other, dating up or down wouldn't even be a question.

 

Bingo! I agree wholeheartedly

 

Raykay... fireflies, I would really like to agree with you. I mean it.

 

I wish all it took was "being emotionally connected, sharing interests/values and cherishing eachother." I wish with these things in place I could ignore the other incompatibilities I have listed throughout this thread.

 

But for me... and in my experience, these wonderful things are simply not enough.

 

There are MANY more variables to consider in a relationship... and love does not conquer all.

[RayKay]

Raykay... fireflies, I would really like to agree with you. I mean it.

 

I wish all it took was "being emotionally connected, sharing interests/values and cherishing eachother." I wish with these things in place I could ignore the other incompatibilities I have listed throughout this thread.

 

But for me... and in my experience, these wonderful things are simply not enough.

 

There are MANY more variables to consider in a relationship... and love does not conquer all.

 

I agree love does not conquer all as it takes work for any relationship to thrive and strengthen, but fireflies did not imply that it did solve all from how I read her post (you may of course read it differently).

 

She did mention having compatibilities, shared interests/values, compassion/respect and a connection - and if those are there, those "dating up or down" or imbalances really should not be there if those things are. You would not be seeing or feeling these things as "imbalances" - rather as the healthy normal balance of your relationship. It's not that there are not "roles", it's that those roles are comfortable for you as couple, and you don't view them as that caretaker/caregiver role you have discussed. There is a reciprocal balance where both are having their needs met, and both meeting the others needs...it's not always "even" but it's equal in that respect that it all balances out for what suits that couple.

[Da5id]

I agree love does not conquer all as it takes work for any relationship to thrive and strengthen, but fireflies did not imply that it did solve all from how I read her post (you may of course read it differently).

 

She did mention having compatibilities, shared interests/values, compassion/respect and a connection - and if those are there, those "dating up or down" or imbalances really should not be there if those things are.

 

Ah... but the imbalance IS there, along with all of those things. Or rather, all of those things are there, until the imbalance manifests. (however slowly)

 

At which time, I personally begin to try harder and my SO begins to try less... the gap widens and ultimately, the relationship ends.

 

My goal in discussing this, is trying to figure out how to identify these traits before I fall madly, deeply in love with someone. How to see the warning signs of this potential dynamic before that invisible line of helpless vulnerability is crossed.

 

 

You would not be seeing or feeling these things as "imbalances" - rather as the healthy normal balance of your relationship.

 

The relationships discussed here are anything but healthy. I make no bones about that, and I am equally guilty if not more so for the unhealthy dynamic as my ex gf's are.

 

It's not that there are not "roles", it's that those roles are comfortable for you as couple, and you don't view them as that caretaker/caregiver role you have discussed. There is a reciprocal balance where both are having their needs met, and both meeting the others needs...it's not always "even" but it's equal in that respect that it all balances out for what suits that couple.

 

I understand that in a nice, healthy relationship the roles shift and the balance swings slightly from one person to another. When one of you is down, the other provides a shoulder to lean on. This is the way it "should" be... of course.

 

I would have given anything to have a relationship like this with my ex. I mean... anything.

 

The relationship I am describing to you is nothing of the sort. We are talking about a HUGE imbalance that developed slowly over time. It may have started at 50-50 or even 60-40 on her part... and ended being more like 90-10 for me.

[chaos]

That is so strange...

 

You, me and Chaos have all had 7 year relationships with the same traits and all have 18 month excursions of this type.

 

What's up with that?

 

I think it means that we understand that relationships take work and we're willing to do whatever it takes to maintain it. We're caring, undestanding, mature, and are able to learn from our mistakes. We just had the misfortune of being with someone who lacked in some or all of these qualities. But, now we have the advantage. We've learned from our pain and will be better armed to make better decisions in the future and not repeat the same mistakes. Our ex's have not and will continue repeating the same pattern over and over again, never understanding that it's really them that's the problem and not the person they're with.

[Da5id]

I think it means that we understand that relationships take work and we're willing to do whatever it takes to maintain it. We're caring, undestanding, mature, and are able to learn from our mistakes. We just had the misfortune of being with someone who lacked in some or all of these qualities. But, now we have the advantage. We've learned from our pain and will be better armed to make better decisions in the future and not repeat the same mistakes. Our ex's have not and will continue repeating the same pattern over and over again, never understanding that it's really them that's the problem and not the person they're with.

 

I have to take responsibility to choosing these women though. I can make the argument that I didn't know they were like this, but I am wondering if in some dark, indiscovered part of myself I sensed it and chose anway.

 

The strangest thing for me... is that when they start to pull away, instead of pulling away myself because I am no longer getting what I need, I compensate for the gap between us by trying harder.

 

When they de-value me, I increase their value... twisted, but true.

[chaos]

I did the same thing... when my ex started pulling away I tried to compensate. I tried to be a better boyfriend but, according to her, it was too late. I don't think any of us could have seen this coming unless you'd do the same thing she did had the positions been reversed. I've been in the other position and never once even considered doing anything like that so... I never saw it coming, until it was "too late" that is.

[kpow]

I have been thinking about this thread-- and trying to make sense of why we choose those we end up with.

 

I wonder if those of us who end up with partners "down" the ladder aren't insecure ourselves-- that at some level we feel we don't deserve more. That we need to work constantly to try and fix/improve someone else-- even if they didn't ask for it. I think in my case it came from growing up in an alcoholic family-- so I became used to dysfunction. And now I have no idea what a "normal" give-and-take relationship is like. I only know how to take care of someone. The minute someone starts taking care of me, I feel uncomfortable-- questioning their motives.

 

Yet we constanly yearn for someone to care for us-- it is very dichotomous.

 

The task at hand is to somehow cure that needy side of us-- to accept who we are, and who are partners are. To let go of expectations. I don't know how to do this yet, but am trying.

[jumper]

I have to take responsibility to choosing these women though. I can make the argument that I didn't know they were like this, but I am wondering if in some dark, indiscovered part of myself I sensed it and chose anway.

 

The strangest thing for me... is that when they start to pull away, instead of pulling away myself because I am no longer getting what I need, I compensate for the gap between us by trying harder.

 

 

I know that in my situation, deep down I knew just by conversing that we were not on the same level, by far. Intellectually she was on the other end of the spectrum. I hate to use this word, but she was "Ignorant" in her decision making process. I couldn't understand it. But I was attracted to her and we had some good times. In the end she said that she could not be up to my standard and always felt like she had to be perfect. My friends and family couldn't even understand why I dated her.

[Daddy Bear]

everybody can't date 'up', it's a statistical impossibility. in my book, tho, there is no dating ladder, just some people who see themselves as superior to certain others. i see it much more as an issue of compatibility.

 

i feel sorry for my female friends who have to know how much a guy earns before they will consider dating him even once. that isn't what love is about.

[sonjam]

Sorry guys, I only came accross this thread now and I want to add my 2cents!

 

Years ago, when I first started dating, I was dating a great guy, we were best friends etc, but the problem was he was more my friend than my lover. We did lots of things, started a business together etc, all new things for us. Then Dating "up" or "down" didn't have a meaning to us. We were on a level playing field.

 

When we broke-up I started working at a big corporate company, and shortly after that my boss started showing interest. He was really not my type and I initially resisted, but later started dating him. All of a sudden I was dining with the Directors of companies, being invited to corporate functions, living the high life. Being driven around in fancy cars etc. It was great, it lasted 9 months, and all during this time my ex wanted me back, cried, begged and pleaded. We still loved each other very much, and i would have willingly gone back, but it was as if my "eyeflaps" fell off, my vision of the world around me grew so much bigger and wider, because of this exposure, that I quickly tired of the new guy, and unfortunately could not go back to the old guy, because in my opinion, now affected by my recent experiences, he was not "worldly" enough. I didn't mean money wise, I meant he came from a small town, and was used to being a "big fish" in a small town, but in the ocean of the world, he was nothing.

 

After that I never really cared for dating "up" or "down" but my view on the world and on people definitely changed, thanks to the GUY WHO DATED DOWN.

 

In my heart I know I will never be happy with the type of relationship I had with my "down" ex, now that I'm more "experienced" I also don't date guys for what they can give me. I've been there with the big sharks" and I've found the level where I'm comfortable at, and where I belong... inbetween down and up!

 

BEWARE that you cannot rescure somebody out of their "level" without risking them becoming educated, wiser and then having them leave to go and find their own personal "level" of happiness

[BONO]

I think there is alot to be said for this thread.

 

 

Thanks

 

 

Scruff

[Belle]

I'm with slightly bent. I guess most of the time I have dated guys that made less money than me. I've also dated guys that had more and were looking for a trophy wife. I used to have that as a requirement until I realized how superficial it was.

 

I used to date guys "beneath" me for security purposes. Now I'm just looking for someone who is emotionally compatible and who makes me laugh. I'm not so much worried about salary as much as motivation and ambition.

 

If I were to rule out every guy who isn't in the same tax bracket or wasn't as good looking as I'd like him to be, I would never ever date. I'm not looking to take care of anyone. I just want to be able to get a long and do the team thing. Otherwise, I may as well be alone waiting for my fictitious prince charming who's beautiful, rich, has no character flaws and doesn't cheat. That'll happen.

[BONO]

Otherwise, I may as well be alone waiting for my fictitious prince charming who's beautiful, rich, has no character flaws and doesn't cheat. That'll happen.

 

 

Hi, my name is J, but my friends here, call me Scruff

[AwdreeHpburn]

huh?.....

 

are you serious wanting to know why if you are the careTAKER you always get the short end of the stick? After all that talk about getting stuck in role definition?

 

OK - I admit, I didn't read EVERY poster so maybe somebody already talked about that...I'll keep reading.

 

GREAT thread by the way

[Belle]

Hi, my name is J, but my friends here, call me Scruff

 

I always did have a thing for British boys.

[BONO]

 

I used to date guys "beneath" me for security purposes. Now I'm just looking for someone who is emotionally compatible and who makes me laugh. I'm not so much worried about salary as much as motivation and ambition.

 

 

Happy days Belle !!

 

 

Scruff

[itsallgrand]

We meet and begin to date. She is blown away at all I have to offer and she begins to be the initiator of contact, of dates, of intimacy and of sex. For me, this goes on for anywhere from 3-6 months, during which time I have an extremely good time spoiling her and showing her new things.

 

After carefully watching her behavior and feeling confident that she loves me I make her my official girlfriend. (insert ticking clock sound here)

 

So basically you attract users.

 

You say nothing of what she does for you or what new things she shows you. You walk in and play 'God' to be admired. You spoil she pays back with sex and affection.

 

Then, after making sure she is falling for it, you close the 'trap'.

 

It's like a Black Widow Spider (in this case a male tho).

 

Why wouldn't you just make life easier and walk in without bells and whistles?

No lures, no 'spoiling', no plan.

Look at the person and show the person who you are regardless of external factors.

 

Go to your first dates on the 'common' level. Don't spend, don't be 'large'.

That will repel a lot of the losers straight off.

 

Those who are 'high' ...let's say some well educated man with tonnes of dough, connections, and high status in a company......

can fall in a snap.

You get cut from the company. Friends leave. You could have a heartattack and lose everything.

 

What then? What about when you NEED, not just want, to be cared for?

 

Trust that you are worthy naked. Don't spoil potential partners nor treat them like a silly child.

 

Why would you want to be with someone who wants you exterior anyways?

 

I really do think this is a personal worth issue at its core.