how to fix communication?

[tenochtitlan]

Hey, 

My wife and I have issues, but we can't talk about them. I want to, but everytime we've done it in the past, she reacts defensive and angry, tells me that I've ruined her day off and such stuff. Also, her responses to my worries are not full of understanding and not very helpful. So I've learned to not bring it up, but it kills me to keep silent. And I can't talk to anyone else about this, and can't afford therapy. 

What could I do? Additional challenge is that she's partly right - she works hard and has many chores in her day off, we have a small child, and this is her only time to relax and feel better. But if not then, when? There is no right time. 

The problems are several, but I will mention one that's pressing of late - sex. We do it rarely, maybe once a month or less, and her excuse is that her female hormones are not right from dieting - which is partly true. But it doesn't convince me completely, because she has the energy and mood to enjoy parties and dancing, often her hormones, as visible in behavior, seem just right to me. Also, at parties especially, but also at other times, she's extremely hot, which is painful to me, because I know I'll only build intense desire, which will get nowhere, which is exhausting. The way she behaves about this makes me feel she doesn't really understand what pain I'm in, and I'd like to talk about it with her, just to kind get it off my chest, but because of the abovementioned reasons, I can't. 

Any suggestions? 

Thanks. 

[Wiseman2]

Unfortunately you're making sex another household chore and begging and nagging is making it much worse. 

Create romance instead of stress and drama and your "needs". Emotion dumping the minute she walks in the door with a ton of childcare and household stuff to do is not an aphrodisiac.  Pick up the slack. Help out around the house more.

When is the last time you had a babysitter, date nights, a weekend getaway, the house cleaned and dinner ready when she gets home from work? When is the last time she went to the spa or took a bath while you took care of the house and child?

She's checked out because of your pressure and lack of compassion for all the stuff on her plate.

 

[tenochtitlan]

Ok, you're partly right, I've noticed that dynamic. But I don't see what I can change practically. We both have our plates full, I can't really take anything from hers into mine. She at least has her days off, at least part of those days is used for rest, while I have no days off. I have always tried to help around the house and I think we have split the household tasks fairly equally. Of course nagging will make her even less interested in sex, but the question is, why did it get to the need for nagging - her desire went down before any "nagging" on my part. 

I have my suspicions what the causes of that drop could be - disagreements we had during the last two years that make her feel I'm not giving her what she thinks most women get. Before those we had the same life, with the same amount of work and distribution of household duties, and it had never been a problem for intimacy, and I don't think it is for most other people - after all that is life, you are full of work both in the office, and at home.

I am ready to make changes, if I see that they are justified, but that can happen, I think, only with talking, and she is not open to talking. Without talking the wounds only fester. But another side of the problem is, as you say, that she's checked out - she doesn't seem to be bothered by the situation as much as I am, and so she has no motivation to overcome her natural aversion to hard conversations. So she's not even interested in telling me directly what the problem is and what on my part she would accept as a solution. Even if I don't think that the solution she expects is possible, or if I disagree that it is fair for her to demand it from me, it would help to simply know what she wants.

Otherwise I think I know what changes would solve the situation as she sees it, without any talking - I make lots of money, she quits her job and is less stressed and tired, and we can afford having a second child, and the frequent problem of who has to look after the child goes away, because she's always home. That's perfect, except I don't think that it's possible. I somehow believe that our relationship should not be a slave to such utopian outcomes. But still, to me it's not surprising to say that there is a difference between me suspecting all of that, and her telling me that it's what she wants. 

[catfeeder]

What are the issues that kicked off her shutdown two years ago?

The approach I’d take to eventually open conversation would start small. Like, how can I help you today? Learn whether that raises any complaints. Or, what things should I add to my To Do list this week?

The point would be to get her speaking about any stresses that may be adding up for her.

As for raising yours with her, that might be a matter of making offers of help into a natural pattern that she can count on and feel comfortable with, along with being affectionate without her having to feel like you expect it to lead to sex. Demonstrate more physical touching even in passing. See if she will start letting you rub her shoulders or feet. Show her that you can engage this way without trying to impose sex.

Help her to relax and trust you again over time rather than viewing you as one more demand on her in the household.

Consider contacting your local hospital’s human services department to seek referrals to counseling resources or support groups based on ability to pay. See if your employer offers an Employee Assistance Program for counseling, or contact a local clergy member for discussion and possible referral to a support group or a counselor. Lots of clergy are schooled in marriage and family counseling.

[SooSad33]

8 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

What could I do? Additional challenge is that she's partly right - she works hard and has many chores in her day off, we have a small child, and this is her only time to relax and feel better. But if not then, when? There is no right time. 

The problems are several, but I will mention one that's pressing of late - sex.

Yes, well this is a part of a 'healthy' relationship, but sadly, it sounds like she's not that into it at this time 😕 .  I wonder why she won't go there with you & discuss why...

Sure, we're always 'busy', but hey, she's got a partner!  This is someone who should be able to feel they can talk to her!

Hey, I've had 2 kids for six years, then I had 2 more.  Sex was always a part of the relationship .... unless one partner had no 'interest' in it anymore.

I wouldn't give this much more time, as it sounds like SHE seems to lack in showing much interest in you and your 'needs' 😕 .

I suggest you give it one more round. And be ready!  You approach her maybe asking that you two sit down and have a heart to heart about this.  You tell her how it makes you feel and ask her to explain WHY she seems to have no interest in you this way anymore.

 

3 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

I think I know what changes would solve the situation as she sees it, without any talking - I make lots of money, she quits her job and is less stressed and tired, and we can afford having a second child, and the frequent problem of who has to look after the child goes away, because she's always home.

I don't think a second child should be an idea.. not at this time.

You BOTH need to be happy in the relationship and you're not. ( and I can't accept this excuse of her being so 'stressed & tired' 😕 ). Also, IF she's so stressed & tired now, imagine what a 2nd kid will do 😮 .

Nah, for now, skip that idea.

[Wiseman2]

4 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

 I think, only with talking, and she is not open to talking. Without talking the wounds only fester. 

Have you considered marriage therapy for professional guidance in a neutral setting? You may be able to start a dialogue that is fair to both of you. It seems like talking is festering her wounds and not talking is festering yours. 

[Cherylyn]

What can you do?  Lighten her load.  Pick up the slack.  Jump right in and help her without her having to ask.   Do this so she won't feel so tired and burned out;  not just because you want something in return.  My husband is extremely helpful and does anything which makes marriage a joy instead of a dread.  Don't make your wife run herself haggard doing everything.   

[shouldhavelearned]

Talk, share

Work her love language 

[tenochtitlan]

Thanks people, appreciate all the replies. 

14 hours ago, catfeeder said:

What are the issues that kicked off her shutdown two years ago?

Some main ones - first, I had success in my career, which required traveling, and instead of supporting me and being happy for me, she made a big drama of me leaving her behind while traveling. She has this assumption that once married and with a job, people never travel and never leave their partner alone with the child, and so traveling makes me worse than other men. Second, she also had the assumption that most men make enough money so that the wife could afford to not work while the child is small, which in my opinion is very far from the truth in our country. So she blamed me for not making money. Also, she criticized mercantile girls on tv, but shows many signs of wanting to live in luxury, as she has said, and once she literally said "I envy pretty girls, because they can find rich men", which I interpreted as "you are of no value to me as a person, I only need your money", and that hurt me. Also, I accidentally read a chat with her friend where she said essentially that girls should choose men based on money, and not handsomeness, as she did, which again made me feel awful, but I never told her that Another thing was that she was often treating me badly, with the excuse again that her hormones are not right, and that she's tired and so on, but I felt not valued and, since this was going on for a long time, even not loved. And the several conversations we had about all of this were unproductive, because she was denying everything - that she doesn't love me, that she's not attracted to me, that she doesn't value me outside of money, that she doesn't support my success, and so on, while at the same time, as listed above, she was doing and saying things that suggested otherwise. 

14 hours ago, catfeeder said:

Demonstrate more physical touching even in passing

I do this all the time, I call it "physical initiative", which is important to me, it shows not only that you are physically attracted to your partner, but that you are intimately close with them and appreciate their presence. I constantly touch and kiss her, while she almost never, and in many days, literally never does, and some conversations we've had exactly because not only she doesn't have the initiative there, but she doesn't even respond to my initiative positively - she's often entirely passive, ignoring my contact, or even slightly pulled back. And again, she denies that that really means anything, but I can't help feeling that it does. 

 

12 hours ago, SooSad33 said:

I wonder why she won't go there with you & discuss why...

Her explanations are things like, she's not a person of words, doesn't know how to express herself properly, doesn't have the energy to pay attention throughout a long and complex conversation. Another problem I have there is that even when we do talk, it's mostly me, and she doesn't even react with "yes" or "no" to many of the things I say, and she's not even aware of how frustrating this is. I have tried to explain it to her many times, and she tells me things like, "well, when I say nothing it means that I agree", but I've told her that it doesn't always work that way - if I tell her how I have hesitations how she feels about me, if her silence is agreement it would mean that she really doesn't feel about me the way I'd want, which she would deny. Also, even if she does agree that something was her fault, say, agreement is not enough, I'd like us to discuss what are the reasons for this and what we can do further. She seems to prefer to ignore problems in the relationship and just pass the time as if nothing is happening. 

Also, she sees all this talking as annoying philosophizing, she is generally not a person of discussions or opinion exploration, she sees herself as very practically-minded. She kind of expects to be allowed to do whatever she feels like doing and not be bothered about it too much.

12 hours ago, SooSad33 said:

IF she's so stressed & tired now, imagine what a 2nd kid will do

I think she on some level has completely abandoned the idea that this relationship can give her what she wants, and is trying to get it from other sources - now when the first child is growing out of the cutest phase, she wants a new one. There is another assumption of hers I suspect - the fairy tale archetype, that a man who truly loves his princess would shower her with money, so she can look after children and not work, and in our case - that I should be there for the child at all times, when she can't, so my traveling is a betrayal of sorts. So now when she's not getting this from me, she feels that she is not valued as a woman, because the assumption goes that the average valuable woman has all of this from her man, and so hurt by this she's closed in herself and attracted to romantic movies. 

12 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Have you considered marriage therapy

Yes, that could help our inability to talk to each other, and I really believe that deep down she still remembers that she loves me and all the adventure we had together, and talking could fix are issues. But knowing her I assume she would be strongly against it. She distrusts therapists, and also, she would resist the idea that there is a problem to solve, and that by this I am forcing her to do the talking she's trying to avoid. 

[Batya33]

10 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

What can you do?  Lighten her load.  Pick up the slack.  Jump right in and help her without her having to ask.   Do this so she won't feel so tired and burned out;  not just because you want something in return.  My husband is extremely helpful and does anything which makes marriage a joy instead of a dread.  Don't make your wife run herself haggard doing everything.   

Yes this. And if you don’t know her particular routines that are most helpful to her then ask but “I’m going to run the wash today - is there a better time for me to do that ?  Do you have any larger items for today ?” ( for example I do bed linens on Fridays ). Sure you can do it “your way “ but if she has systems in place the best way is her way if at all possible. 
also use I statements when you approach her about relationship issues. “I feel sad when I try to give you a hug and you seem distant “ l feel frustrated when I think I’m helping by getting your favorite takeout and you tell me I should have asked first.  Then I feel like I can’t do anything right by you”. 

[tenochtitlan]

I've already mentioned that I am equally involved in housework. 

Interestingly, I imagine, if she told me "if you do all the housework, so I can rest with my feet up the whole evening, I will appreciate you and love you and we will have sex", I might agree - of course. But then, should I really? Isn't this blackmailing? Would you respect such a man? Is it that only that man who does all the housework deserves to be appreciated in a relationship? Why do I not expect her to do stuff for me, so that I can appreciate her and desire her? 

Yet, that does suggest an idea - one time to get her to talk to me about something else, I took her out to a place she liked; maybe in this case I could ask her to talk to me about our issues in return for me taking all housework for her day off, and all things to do in general, so she could completely relax. It might work, although I suspect she will still be annoyed by the invitation to talk. But still - I think I'd prefer a relationship in which we could talk openly about things as a normal right, given to a person you value, and not to have to buy my right to a conversation. 

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

 , even if she does agree that something was her fault, say, agreement is not enough, I'd like us to discuss what are the reasons for this and what we can do further. 

She kind of expects to be allowed to do whatever she feels like doing . 

What isn't she "allowed" to do? 

After she apologizes and admits things are "her fault", what is the purpose of hammering it home for hours of drawn out  "long and complicated discussions"?

[Batya33]

Was she like this when you were dating and if so why did you marry her ? Did she want to be a SAHM?  Did you want her to be a SAHM? Was she checked for post partum depression or post partum anxiety?

[Lambert]

Can you hire some help?

Why don't you have any days off? This is not sustainable or healthy.  

 

On 6/17/2023 at 5:58 AM, tenochtitlan said:

she reacts defensive and angry, tells me that I've ruined her day off and such stuff.

This is also not sustainable. Has she always been this way? How did you  resolve things before you were married? 

[SooSad33]

12 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

She seems to prefer to ignore problems in the relationship and just pass the time as if nothing is happening. 

 Nope.  Communication is necessary.  Not ignore or avoid problems that arise.

Obviously, you feel there's some problems, then you two need to discuss them and see what or IF they can be fixed - to where you do both feel better, etc.

 

12 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

She kind of expects to be allowed to do whatever she feels like doing and not be bothered about it too much.

Umm, well that's a little selfish, isn't it?  

Lack of communication, always one way? ( her way).  

 

12 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

I think she on some level has completely abandoned the idea that this relationship can give her what she wants, and is trying to get it from other sources - now when the first child is growing out of the cutest phase, she wants a new one

Not a good idea!  Kids require your time, your energy, your patience & love.. always ❤️ 

She sounds way too needy.. and this relationship with her is NOT up to standards.  Don;t even go there again... No kid needs a life where the parents are at odds and things seem to be falling apart.

9 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

Yet, that does suggest an idea - one time to get her to talk to me about something else, I took her out to a place she liked; maybe in this case I could ask her to talk to me about our issues in return for me taking all housework for her day off, and all things to do in general, so she could completely relax. It might work, although I suspect she will still be annoyed by the invitation to talk.

IF this works for her, then, maybe she will ease off with the avoidance or actually improve her 'mood' more?

Or do you feel she's just expects too much & it's all about her all the time?

When I was married & we had 2 kids, yeah, in the beginning we both worked.  Then was just him & I tended to kids & home.  What I expected from him now and then was to pick up a little after himself. help with shopping etc.  I did the rest around the home.  AND to want to be around & enjoy his kids/ time with them. ( Hows she with that?).

[Cherylyn]

10 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

I've already mentioned that I am equally involved in housework. 

Interestingly, I imagine, if she told me "if you do all the housework, so I can rest with my feet up the whole evening, I will appreciate you and love you and we will have sex", I might agree - of course. But then, should I really? Isn't this blackmailing? Would you respect such a man? Is it that only that man who does all the housework deserves to be appreciated in a relationship? Why do I not expect her to do stuff for me, so that I can appreciate her and desire her? 

Yet, that does suggest an idea - one time to get her to talk to me about something else, I took her out to a place she liked; maybe in this case I could ask her to talk to me about our issues in return for me taking all housework for her day off, and all things to do in general, so she could completely relax. It might work, although I suspect she will still be annoyed by the invitation to talk. But still - I think I'd prefer a relationship in which we could talk openly about things as a normal right, given to a person you value, and not to have to buy my right to a conversation. 

Change the way you think.  No,  it's not blackmailing to help your wife always in all ways.  Help your wife because it's called doing the right thing to be honorable.  Don't wait until she's tired or has to ask for help,  looks burned out or worn out.  My husband traveled a lot for business,  I was a SAHM yet I still needed his help with two little boys underfoot.  Don't keep score.  Just do it.   Always be her right hand man and be right on it.  Be more action based and less hot air.  Less lip service. 

Sure,  have a conversation but don't go in being defensive and combative.  Soften your tone and your mindset because you'll attract more bees with honey than vinegar.    

[tenochtitlan]

11 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

Don't wait until she's tired or has to ask for help,  looks burned out or worn out.

I still think based on what I've said it's fairly obvious that me not helping at home is not the problem. I'm sure I'm helping more than most men. I've always believed men should help with housework, which is still not the default, at least in our society, and have always tried to help as much as I can. I don't see what more I could do in this area. Since you're not there and you don't see what I am really doing, I think you should just assume that I'm telling the truth. This tangent is not productive.

 

22 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

What isn't she "allowed" to do?

This is obviously not about her being my slave or something. As SooSad33 seems to understand, in a relationship behavior that affects the other person should be negotiated, this is what it means to care about your partner. If I tend to do something that hurts her, she has to be able to tell me, we will discuss it and look for a solution, even if, as it sometimes happens, I am not ready at this point to give up this behavior right away completely. 

My point here was that she doesn't seem to care how her behavior affects me, the person she loves, and so the idea that I might not like how she treats me and that she should consider changes, if she wants the relationship to work, is kind of foreign to her. Of course this is not entirely true - she does try to be more like what she knows I need and to do less of the things that hurt me, as I am doing for her as well, just in terms of being ready to talk she seems less concerned. I think in her less-verbal mind it goes like, she will pay attention to how I react and will try to be better, and that's it. But I think it's not always obvious how the other person reacts, what he feels, thinks and wants, if the changes you're making really work, and so on, and all of that is just easier, if it is discussed. 

It's hard for me to understand that, because of how it compares to my mindset - if I notice that my partner is not happy, I want to know why exactly, and then I will do anything to make things better, I will think about it all the time and constantly try things, and I will ask her if what I'm doing is working and if she feels better now. All of that in my mind shows that I care about her experience of my presence, if you really care about someone, you should try to be your best self with them, you are an experience of sorts for them, and you should care for it to be a positive experience. 

22 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Was she like this when you were dating and if so why did you marry her ? Did she want to be a SAHM?  Did you want her to be a SAHM?

Good questions. She wasn't that way from the beginning in some ways, but was in others - most of the issues I described we didn't have, but she always was visibly averse to open conversation, and I've always struggled with that a bit, even when the problems weren't so big. 

Yes, we both always preferred for her to be a SAHM. At this point the only obstacle is money. I am doing my best to make more, but it doesn't only depend on me, and it takes time. The major importance of money is partly the answer to Lambert - why I don't have days off. This is just too important for me, I will not neglect it.

19 hours ago, Lambert said:

How did you  resolve things before you were married? 

I always tried to encourage conversation is subtle and careful ways, and many times it did work. But maybe problems were less intense, and less frequent. The last year that changed and conversations were a bit too frequent and a bit too heated, which is unusual for our communication, we are both patient and careful, but these issues really pushed the buttons for both of us and it's hard to stay cool. Also, this is a period of more intense job dissatisfaction for her, which makes it more important for her to feel good once she's home, and these conversations understandably make it harder to feel good, so she protests more. From my position however that is unavoidable, we have to figure it out, if we want the relationship to endure. The conversations are stressful and exhausting for me too. 

 

13 hours ago, SooSad33 said:

What I expected from him now and then was to pick up a little after himself. help with shopping etc.  I did the rest around the home.  AND to want to be around & enjoy his kids/ time with them. ( Hows she with that?).

I think she is satisfied with how much I help around the house. But she wants me to travel less, if at all, and so miss career opportunities that she knows are very important to me. Also, my job is home-based, so she thinks it acceptable for me to always look after the child, when the child is sick, while she doesn't take additional days off her job, because she's so careful not to upset her colleagues, who will have to work more to compensate for her absence. But she doesn't care about her job much, it's just a source of money, while I care about mine a lot, and this unfair requirement that I have to work less when the child is sick, is a problem for me, and it is a problem for her that I resist it. And the biggest problem is her expectation that I make more money, so that she can leave her job and spend the whole time with the child, and as I said, she assumes that most men can afford that, so I'm a failure compared to the standard. 

 

22 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

After she apologizes and admits things are "her fault", what is the purpose of hammering it home for hours of drawn out  "long and complicated discussions"?

Don't get hung up on the phrasing, it's not that long or complicated, but it's not that simple either. I think most people know that relationship stuff are complex, because it's a matter of the clash of two minds, of different values, of different life preferences and so on.

To constantly admit fault is on its own not productive. If I was admitting fault, I would want to explain why I did what I did, so that it's clear that I still care about her, I was just a victim of circumstances and of my own mind, and also, I'd want to throw some ideas of what I propose to change, what change I think I can do, and what I feel I can't do, and I'd want to make sure that's ok for her. Again, all of that shows that I care. While simply admitting fault is often a sign of being pressed to admit it, you just have no more good replies, and you do it like "ok, ok, you win, please stop bothering me now", that's how it sometimes feels. A lot of the struggle around that whole theme of conversations in our case is just me not seeing that she cares. I just don't see her really interested in making it work, in me being satisfied. 

But don't get me wrong - I'm not saying she is always admitting fault. Not at all. The most frequent case of admitting fault I guess it this - she says "you're wrong, I care about you, but I admit that my behavior doesn't communicate that". But I can't bring myself to be fine with that. 

[Batya33]

47 minutes ago, tenochtitlan said:

I still think based on what I've said it's fairly obvious that me not helping at home is not the problem. I'm sure I'm helping more than most men. I've always believed men should help with housework, which is still not the default, at least in our society, and have always tried to help as much as I can. I don't see what more I could do in this area. Since you're not there and you don't see what I am really doing, I think you should just assume that I'm telling the truth. This tangent is not productive.

 

This is obviously not about her being my slave or something. As SooSad33 seems to understand, in a relationship behavior that affects the other person should be negotiated, this is what it means to care about your partner. If I tend to do something that hurts her, she has to be able to tell me, we will discuss it and look for a solution, even if, as it sometimes happens, I am not ready at this point to give up this behavior right away completely. 

My point here was that she doesn't seem to care how her behavior affects me, the person she loves, and so the idea that I might not like how she treats me and that she should consider changes, if she wants the relationship to work, is kind of foreign to her. Of course this is not entirely true - she does try to be more like what she knows I need and to do less of the things that hurt me, as I am doing for her as well, just in terms of being ready to talk she seems less concerned. I think in her less-verbal mind it goes like, she will pay attention to how I react and will try to be better, and that's it. But I think it's not always obvious how the other person reacts, what he feels, thinks and wants, if the changes you're making really work, and so on, and all of that is just easier, if it is discussed. 

It's hard for me to understand that, because of how it compares to my mindset - if I notice that my partner is not happy, I want to know why exactly, and then I will do anything to make things better, I will think about it all the time and constantly try things, and I will ask her if what I'm doing is working and if she feels better now. All of that in my mind shows that I care about her experience of my presence, if you really care about someone, you should try to be your best self with them, you are an experience of sorts for them, and you should care for it to be a positive experience. 

Good questions. She wasn't that way from the beginning in some ways, but was in others - most of the issues I described we didn't have, but she always was visibly averse to open conversation, and I've always struggled with that a bit, even when the problems weren't so big. 

Yes, we both always preferred for her to be a SAHM. At this point the only obstacle is money. I am doing my best to make more, but it doesn't only depend on me, and it takes time. The major importance of money is partly the answer to Lambert - why I don't have days off. This is just too important for me, I will not neglect it.

I always tried to encourage conversation is subtle and careful ways, and many times it did work. But maybe problems were less intense, and less frequent. The last year that changed and conversations were a bit too frequent and a bit too heated, which is unusual for our communication, we are both patient and careful, but these issues really pushed the buttons for both of us and it's hard to stay cool. Also, this is a period of more intense job dissatisfaction for her, which makes it more important for her to feel good once she's home, and these conversations understandably make it harder to feel good, so she protests more. From my position however that is unavoidable, we have to figure it out, if we want the relationship to endure. The conversations are stressful and exhausting for me too. 

 

I think she is satisfied with how much I help around the house. But she wants me to travel less, if at all, and so miss career opportunities that she knows are very important to me. Also, my job is home-based, so she thinks it acceptable for me to always look after the child, when the child is sick, while she doesn't take additional days off her job, because she's so careful not to upset her colleagues, who will have to work more to compensate for her absence. But she doesn't care about her job much, it's just a source of money, while I care about mine a lot, and this unfair requirement that I have to work less when the child is sick, is a problem for me, and it is a problem for her that I resist it. And the biggest problem is her expectation that I make more money, so that she can leave her job and spend the whole time with the child, and as I said, she assumes that most men can afford that, so I'm a failure compared to the standard. 

 

Don't get hung up on the phrasing, it's not that long or complicated, but it's not that simple either. I think most people know that relationship stuff are complex, because it's a matter of the clash of two minds, of different values, of different life preferences and so on.

To constantly admit fault is on its own not productive. If I was admitting fault, I would want to explain why I did what I did, so that it's clear that I still care about her, I was just a victim of circumstances and of my own mind, and also, I'd want to throw some ideas of what I propose to change, what change I think I can do, and what I feel I can't do, and I'd want to make sure that's ok for her. Again, all of that shows that I care. While simply admitting fault is often a sign of being pressed to admit it, you just have no more good replies, and you do it like "ok, ok, you win, please stop bothering me now", that's how it sometimes feels. A lot of the struggle around that whole theme of conversations in our case is just me not seeing that she cares. I just don't see her really interested in making it work, in me being satisfied. 

But don't get me wrong - I'm not saying she is always admitting fault. Not at all. The most frequent case of admitting fault I guess it this - she says "you're wrong, I care about you, but I admit that my behavior doesn't communicate that". But I can't bring myself to be fine with that. 

So that’s the issue. If you really feel men should “help” do housework and parent and if that shows in your attitude that can cause a lot of frustration.  You’re not helping. You’re responsible for doing your part in parenting and housework.

Now you work full time so your part is likely to be less time and less hours and less responsibilities than your wife the primary caregiver. But it’s not gendered and it’s not “help” to her it’s you stepping up to the plate and fairly dividing labor.

In my family fair when I was a SAHM was I did 95% of the housework and cooking and food prep that wasn’t outsourced.  
 

Husband worked more than full time and was a student and cared for his parents 800 miles away the first 7 years of marriage so he encouraged me to outsource. Sometimes for sure he “helped” me with my part of things. Like if I was too busy to schedule something or I had committed to taking our son somewhere but couldn’t or I needed to get to a doctor or dentist suddenly he helped by pitching in to child care.   But he wasn’t “helping “ me when he parented when he was home when he did his small part of the housework - this was his own responsibility and his own work.

I will add if she is asking you to forego work opportunities thst will help your career I’m not a fan of that at all   Or thinking you can take care of the child while working  

While my husband was at his conference the other day all day and my son was not feeling well and was a handful I texted him zero times even though I felt like venting and wished he wasn’t there  I’ve been in many stressful and hard situations while solo parenting over the years and disturbing him was not a thing I did other than a true emergency   But I admired his drive and ambition and career from the very beginning   I still do  

I think there has to be a sense of respect for each others work and your wife seems not to respect your ambition and drive for your work   Has this always been true or just when reality hit ?

 

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

my job is home-based, so she thinks it acceptable for me to always look after the child, when the child is sick, while she doesn't take additional days off her job,

If you work from home and she has to report to a workplace, it makes sense that you look after your own children, rather than her taking sick days or losing money. 

Unfortunately she seems exhausted from working full time, being a full time mother, being a wife, full time homemaker and having to deal with chronic discussions and arguments. 

Perhaps she just says yes, no, whatever, you're right and so on to reduce the stress of it all. 

Between everything else she has on her plate to take care of, all the drawn out talking could be quite exhausting and counterproductive.

 

 

[Coily]

On 6/17/2023 at 5:58 AM, tenochtitlan said:

But it doesn't convince me completely, because she has the energy and mood to enjoy parties and dancing, often her hormones, as visible in behavior, seem just right to me. Also, at parties especially, but also at other times, she's extremely hot, which is painful to me, because I know I'll only build intense desire, which will get nowhere, which is exhausting. The way she behaves about this makes me feel she doesn't really understand what pain I'm in, and I'd like to talk about it with her, just to kind get it off my chest, but because of the abovementioned reasons, I can't.

Everyone is foolishly hung up on talking about household chores,  but paid zero attention to the fact your wife has the energy to go out and party. She's clearly not so exhausted to go out for a party and dancing.

On 6/18/2023 at 3:16 AM, tenochtitlan said:

Some main ones - first, I had success in my career, which required traveling, and instead of supporting me and being happy for me, she made a big drama of me leaving her behind while traveling. She has this assumption that once married and with a job, people never travel and never leave their partner alone with the child, and so traveling makes me worse than other men. Second, she also had the assumption that most men make enough money so that the wife could afford to not work while the child is small, which in my opinion is very far from the truth in our country. So she blamed me for not making money.

This should have also been picked up on by the peanut gallery here. Even if your work is home-based, but requires a lot of travel, that's exhausting too; so don't let anyone here tell you otherwise or brow beat you over wanting to succeed for your family.

All of this in context with sex problems makes a lot more sense than this unhelpful domestic chores line. It seems as if your wife is punishing you (withholding sex) for not living up to her idealized lifestyle. It also would explain why she is reluctant to talk about any of the problems, as she would have to realize her expectations and reality don't match; this can be very jarring.

It may help you to write her a letter about some of the issues, then write it again, until you can refine some of these problems. Spend a lot of time getting down what you see as the problem, then come up with some solutions. If those solutions are ones you can implement on your own do so, if not; lead your wife to these answers. From her resentment, it seems you need to take a primary leadership role.

 

 

[boltnrun]

How are you supposed to make enough money for her to stop working and also be around all the time and not have to travel for work?

If there's a job out there that pays well enough to support an entire family while also allowing for lots of time off, please let me know how I can apply!

You two seem overwhelmed with work and chores. When is your fun time? When do you both get to relax and do fun family things? Or couple things?

[Batya33]

4 hours ago, Coily said:

Everyone is foolishly hung up on talking about household chores,  but paid zero attention to the fact your wife has the energy to go out and party. She's clearly not so exhausted to go out for a party and dancing.

This should have also been picked up on by the peanut gallery here. Even if your work is home-based, but requires a lot of travel, that's exhausting too; so don't let anyone here tell you otherwise or brow beat you over wanting to succeed for your family.

All of this in context with sex problems makes a lot more sense than this unhelpful domestic chores line. It seems as if your wife is punishing you (withholding sex) for not living up to her idealized lifestyle. It also would explain why she is reluctant to talk about any of the problems, as she would have to realize her expectations and reality don't match; this can be very jarring.

It may help you to write her a letter about some of the issues, then write it again, until you can refine some of these problems. Spend a lot of time getting down what you see as the problem, then come up with some solutions. If those solutions are ones you can implement on your own do so, if not; lead your wife to these answers. From her resentment, it seems you need to take a primary leadership role.

 

 

I didn’t think she was necessarily exhausted just didn’t want to have to do as much of the grunt work part.  I had no interest in going out and partying or socializing at night once I was 42 and a married mom but that’s partly because I did tons of it for over 20 years prior to that. 

[catfeeder]

Successful couples do negotiate with one another and trade off things and behaviors of value to one in exchange for things of value to the other. So while I understand you believe that she should just give you the conversation and intimacy and sex you want and deserve, understand that bribery is the fine art of showing another what is in it for them when they cooperate.

I wouldn’t assume that chores are the only thing of value you can barter with your wife. You said that taking her out on a dinner date helped her to open up and feel happier while speaking with you. So why not keep doing what has proven to work?

Ask her when this week she might like for the two of you to arrange for a sitter and enjoy a night out at her favorite restaurant or any other she might like to try.

When you have her out, don’t launch into the kind of conversation she avoids, or she’ll feel set up and won’t trust you anymore. Instead, keep the time enjoyable, and ask her if she’d like to form a list with you of other places you can look forward to exploring together or sometimes with other couples. Offer that you’ve both been working hard enough to allow for some enjoyment in your lives.

Allow her to talk more while you listen more. Learn whether she expresses interest in doing more things or whether she bogs down in complaints or reasons why she doesn’t feel up for going on more dates with you or sharing any time with other couples.

Don’t try to ‘fix’ anything she raises on the spot. Take her hand and tell her you understand. You’d like to manage these things as a team, and you’d like to learn more about changes she’d like from you.

And don’t pour it on thick, just keep learning about what she envisions for herself without getting into technical stuff that makes that difficult or impossible.

The goal is to learn stuff you can use to motivate future negotiations without contaminating the enjoyable experience that allows her to raise this stuff.

Continue to ‘date’ your wife. It can be your fertile ground for learning insights without turning them into the contentious exchanges she wants to avoid. Double dating with other couples on occasion will prompt you both to adopt the performance personalities that you both fell in love with about the other.

While the cost of dating might appear to be a barrier, consider that your current state of frugality is not serving your relationship. Just the opposite. Drudgery has formed a wedge between you, and it makes no sense to strive for the very state that has harmed your marriage and mental health. Find a balance. Remove enough drudgery to become a team, and that will open a door to negotiation of all else. If it does not, cross that bridge after you’ve tried it.

[Kampuniform3]

You have reached stage 4 out of the 5 stages of Duck's Model of Relationship Dissolution: Social.

 Unresolved issues escape the confines of the relationship as trust and confidence deteriorate.  The issues are taken outside the relationship to family, friends, enotalone in a quest to find the optimal solution. 

The Steven Duck model very accurately gauges a relationships' health, and you should tell your partner about this model, and your position relative to it.  

If your partner doesn't think that she bears some responsibility for listening to your concerns, and working towards solutions, then there is truly no relationship left worthy of salvaging.

 Needless to say, this advice applies to both of you, as she clearly has many unspoken issues herself if she is demonstrating this degree of reluctance.

A free and frank approach to problem solving in a relationship is foundational to its health.  

Perpetual back pedalling, avoidance, and arguing will send the whole thing down the drain in no time at all .

 

[ADent42]

Communication is key to any relationship.  You say you can't afford therapy (understandable), so you two need to figure this out by yourselves.  You two need to start somewhere - maybe try to agree on a day/time every week when you can spend an hour (or whatever) together talking.  The main thing, though is that you should be able to discuss your wants and needs with each other.  Expressing these things is not an argument (or it shouldn't be), and you both need to try to be engaged, committed and avoid defensiveness, anger, bitterness, accusations or anything else that would escalate these talks beyond what is productive or into an argument.

The goal is that you both feel comfortable and safe bringing up issues, discussing your feelings (good and bad) and figuring things out together.

I don't know if this is helpful at all.  You both need to be open and honest and coming at these discussions from a place of love and understanding and empathy.  It's not easy, but you both need to be on the same page.