how to fix communication?

[redswim30]

6 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

Ok, so what's the better glue in this case? Assuming you don't want to get rid of the vase. 

But just to check your view, would you agree to what I said earlier to Wiseman2? He said that if talking hasn't worked so far, more talking is not going to work. I said professional negotiators would disagree. You never know when talking is going to work and you can't be sure that you are not giving up just before it finally does work. Talking is not equal to applying the glue - it's a process of searching for the right glue. As long as you keep searching by navigating the conversation, it is still possible to find the glue, and you never know how long it would take. Once you do find it, it suddenly clicks. 

Would you agree with that? 

 

The "better glue" is telling her you want to go to individual counseling while you decide if this is a healthy marriage for you and your child. It's telling her that you saw your messages, you are very upset by them and contempt on both your parts is making your marriage unhealthy and you need to take concrete actions for change.  Be direct, honest and take REAL action to show her you are serious about change.  But you aren't doing that, you are avoiding that -you keep trying the same ineffective tactics (as Wiseman pointed out) over and over, and expecting different results.  Being pouty, trying to "talk" without laying all your HONEST cards on the table.  Hoping against hope that she will change, without even telling her what's really on your mind (the messages she doesn't even know you saw).

I agree with Wiseman on most things, including this.  I've been divorced.  No amount of talking changed anything or made him change his behavior.  If it was that easy, I'd likely still be married to him.  I say all the time, you can't expect counseling to be a magic band aid.  It only works if both parties are interested and invested in change.  You have said repeatedly your wife doesn't even think anything is wrong.  No one is going to change behavior that they don't even think is a problem.  Also, I WORK WITH professional negotiators.  You think all their situations get resolved peacefully and to their satisfaction?  HINT- They don't.  Cause sometimes no amount of talking prevents someone from certain behaviors, actions and choices.  Even with the VERY best "talkers" in the world. 

You keep thinking there's some magical perfect words you can use that will save your marriage and change your wife for the better.  There aren't.   Do you really want to spend years and years in an unhappy and unhealthy marriage just HOPING that 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 years down the line you MIGHT find the "perfect words"- Many people have tried this road, FYI.  And if you think that's all you deserve/want from a marriage, then do that.  We're not stopping you. 

You seem to want people to just tell you what you want to hear.  That your wife really loves you and just needs to be "convinced" in the right way to work on herself/your marriage.  Everyone here (and you should really paid heed to those of us who have been in your shoes).  If that's what you want to believe- go ahead.  Nothing any of us can say is going to convince you otherwise if that's what you truly want to choose to believe.  But IMVHO, that's not going to result in anyone's happiness- yours, your wife's or even your daughters.   (BTW, I've been in your daughter's shoes, too) 

You're gonna do what you're gonna do.  You're gonna believe whatever you want to believe.  

 

 

[tenochtitlan]

On 6/27/2023 at 1:59 PM, Wiseman2 said:

open your mind to different approaches

I should say here that the fact that I am defending conversation so much doesn't mean that I am closed to alternative approaches. I am thinking in other directions too, like how to change circumstances, so that she gets what she wants and is able to see me in a more positive light, or so that our interaction is less oppressed by practical obstacles; or to employ indirect means of conversation, which move her mind in certain direction without her realizing it; or to look for ways to more visibly show her my affection and help her get out of the zero-sum mindset about this. 

However I believe that proper, civilized human interaction should not require such tactics, we should be able to have open conversations, regardless of anything. 

So here I will ask again - what do you think is the different approach that I should be open for? 

Thanks. 

 

[tenochtitlan]

On 6/27/2023 at 5:14 PM, redswim30 said:

The "better glue" is telling her you want to go to individual counseling while you decide if this is a healthy marriage for you and your child. It's telling her that you saw your messages, you are very upset by them

Ok, I accept that and am now really considering how exactly I should do it. 

 

On 6/27/2023 at 5:14 PM, redswim30 said:

trying to "talk" without laying all your HONEST cards on the table.

For me talking means exactly laying your honest cards on the table. Yes, I have not yet told her about the chat thing, but my insistence on conversation does not exclude it, of course. I am ready to say openly anything. So far I have been complaining about her unwillingness to join this open conversation, and I expect this unwillingness to keep showing up when I do tell her about the chat. So yeah, I am aware from the start that I have to tell her about it sooner or later, and I was looking for some opinions from you about that too, but it isn't the main problem - the main problem is how to make her willing to talk. 

 

On 6/27/2023 at 5:14 PM, redswim30 said:

I WORK WITH professional negotiators.  You think all their situations get resolved peacefully and to their satisfaction?  HINT- They don't.  Cause sometimes no amount of talking prevents someone from certain behaviors, actions and choices.  Even with the VERY best "talkers" in the world. 

Yeah, of course, I am not saying that. I am just saying that they don't give up - as long as they don't have any other way to resolve the situation, they keep trying to resolve it by talking, and don't give up when it's hard and the other side seems unresponsive. Sure, negotiations can fail even with the best talkers, but also some negotiations succeed even after hours of apparent dead ends. 

So now, I will surely tell her about the chat. But I still have some reservations about counseling, I don't know exactly why. But I do believe that counseling can bring her mind to the importance of us resolving those issues, which is for many reasons much harder to do in just our usual private conversations. I think she would listen to this "external authority" more than to me, about such things as the importance of conversation or the idea of valuing your partner because of who he is as a person, not what comfort he is able to bring you. 

[Batya33]

4 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

I think she would listen to this "external authority" more than to me, about such things as the importance of conversation or the idea of valuing your partner because of who he is as a person, not what comfort he is able to bring you. 

I wouldn't do counseling from that perspective. This is not going to be an external authority telling her platitudes like that -if so that's not a good therapist.  You can read that in a social media meme.  Paste it to the refrigerator - have her listen to one of many podcasts.  

A therapist who's good -IMO as a layperson - will mostly listen.  Facilitate sharing, create a comfortable environment to do so.  Let the person sit in silence if that's what works.  She may believe that you two are not a good match so that it's not about "valuing your partner because of who he is"(which again is a common sense abstraction not a professional's doling out of advice - if you imagine it that way). 

She may explore what is meant by "comfort" -another abstraction.  She may find that it's an issue of the dynamic of you two as far as her expectations.  This is not like when I love when a teacher at my son's school gets across to him how important it is to learn and study because he listens to the teacher more or how my mother gets my son to eat whatever food he won't eat at home lol.  I think if you approach therapy in the way you suggest above it's a waste of time and $$.

[Wiseman2]

4 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

 to employ indirect means of conversation, which move her mind in certain direction without her realizing it;

What exactly do you want to talk to her about? What exactly do you want to know from her? 

[redswim30]

7 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

but it isn't the main problem - the main problem is how to make her willing to talk. 

 I think she would listen to this "external authority" more than to me, about such things as the importance of conversation or the idea of valuing your partner because of who he is as a person, not what comfort he is able to bring you. 

That's not how therapy works.  No good therapist is going to either take sides OR tell someone what they "should do".  

OP, I really wish you could see what you're really saying here.  With both of these statements, you keep going back to different versions of " there must be some way of getting to her to think how I want, act how I'd prefer and believe what I believe."   Why isn't it sinking in that you (or anyone else) can't control your wife, her feelings, her actions, her reactions or her beliefs? 

 

 

[tenochtitlan]

On 6/29/2023 at 2:15 PM, Batya33 said:

A therapist who's good -IMO as a layperson - will mostly listen

I think I sometimes don't express myself properly. I mostly agree with what you are saying, so maybe what you object to isn't really contained in my post. 

I certainly am not expecting the role of the therapist to be to convince my wife that I'm right. All I'm talking about is the value of conversation - she wouldn't accept this value when we talk, but the presence of a third person could help her accept it. So it's not that she will accept my beliefs about what we should do, but the value of conversation itself. If conversation leads to her admitting that she's not interested in maintaining this relationship anymore, then fine. And yes - in my mind the value of conversation is objective to such a degree that we should try to convince people in it. It's not a kind of value that anyone could decide for himself - if we don't have conversation, we don't have anything. As one thinker I read says, conversation is the only alternative to violence. 

So I don't believe that there is a good therapist who rejects the value of conversation. Even if he takes some position of listening and accepting the decision of the person to stay out of conversation, there will be some sort of examining where this resistance comes from, and a successful therapy, in my opinion, should decrease a person's resistance to conversation. One outcome of therapy for example could be that we understand why she avoids talking - she may not become more willing to talk, but just knowing why she doesn't want to talk is in my opinion a significant step forward. And that's something that comes up only thanks to some form of conversation. 

On 6/29/2023 at 4:56 PM, redswim30 said:

No good therapist is going to either take sides OR tell someone what they "should do".

This is what I'm trying to say - I don't expect that. 

 

On 6/29/2023 at 4:56 PM, redswim30 said:

there must be some way of getting to her to think how I want, act how I'd prefer and believe what I believe."   Why isn't it sinking in that you (or anyone else) can't control your wife, her feelings, her actions, her reactions or her beliefs? 

I do think that in relation only to the value of conversation, not to anything else. In other words, I believe that my need that we talk is absolutely justified and normal human need in any relationship, I think reasonable intelligent people, who are outside of the emotional investment of our situation, understand that and could help her see it. Yes, in terms of all of this that I am saying about conversation, I think that I am right and she is wrong. But I am not trying to manipulate her like a robot to be the way I want her to be - I just want us to be clear about what we want, and I don't see how that can happen without talking. If she doesn't want to have physical contact with me and is not interested in me in any way - then we have no relationship and have to split up; if, also, she does have some emotional attachment to me, but still doesn't want to have physical contact, then I have the right to say that this is not a relationship that I could find fulfilling and I would prefer to split up. 

This framing of "controlling someone" is a bit weird. In a sense you too want your partner to love you and to show it. To tell me that controlling someone isn't possible suggests to me that you don't believe that relationship problems could be fixed - once one of the partners loses interest in physical contact, say, there is no way for that to be restored, the relationship is over. I don't believe that. Maybe I'm wrong that conversation is the way, but at this point I'm not convinced there is no way. 

By the way, if you don't believe this could be fixed, why are you recommending me to bring up the chat subject with her? What would be the point? 

 

 

[tenochtitlan]

On 6/29/2023 at 2:18 PM, Wiseman2 said:

What exactly do you want to talk to her about? What exactly do you want to know from her?

Good question. 

First I want to know what she thinks and how she feels about me and our relationship - most of the time I'm in the dark about that. Is she really fully honest when she tells me that it's all hormones, or does she feel on some level that there are other issues - in who I am or what I'm doing. Who knows, maybe at first she liked me, but now she doesn't, there are things about me that push her away, and she is just afraid to say it or to change anything. If I have no fault at all, I want her to be clear that I need that physical contact, and if there is something I could do to help her with whatever is causing her avoidance of it. I want to know her absolutely honest view of me and money - does she really resent me for not having as much money as some of her friend's husbands? If not, what does that chat that I mentioned mean, why did she say what she said? And if yes, I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with such a person - I want to be valued for what I am and not how much money I make, and I believe there are women out there don't think that that's idealistic. 

I am open to changing myself, as I've always been - if she tells me something in my behavior or actions that is the issue, I could consider looking for ways to change it. So knowing what really is the problem could be useful to me. I do want to be the person she wants me to be, I want her to be happy with me, so I need to know what is missing, and at this point I am only guessing.

I want a relationship in which I am fully appreciated, and if I don't deserve to be - I prefer not to be in a relationship. So I guess I want her to tell me why she isn't enthusiastic about me, so to speak, so that I can change; or, if she tells me that there is no problem with me, to talk about what we could do about her inability to show her feelings - are we really ok with the idea that our interaction will be this way till the end of our lives? If so, I would suggest that we consider divorce. If not, we could look together for solutions. There is always something you can try, when I accept it deserves to be done.

Also, redswim30 helped me to realize that I have never believed that "it's all hormones" - I've always suspected that there is a deeper issue that she has with me, but is just not admitting it. So it is a problem that however much she tries to convince me that there is nothing more than hormones here, I couldn't believe her. And imagine it really is all hormones. What then? First, based on what should I believe her that it is so, and second, if I do believe her, should I stay with her and accept that she loves me, but can't show it, so I will never feel loved, or I should divorce her because of something that in a sense is no fault of her own? 

But in more abstract terms, the essence of conversation is in my mind the following: we find that we have different views about how we want to live, and look for ways that are both satisfied, while making some inevitable compromises, so that we can be fully happy with each other and not resent the other person; or, we agree that the differences cannot be resolved - she may want me to do something that for me would be sacrificing too much of what I need from life, while if I don't do it, she can never truly love me, appreciate me and show affection - in that case we should agree to end the relationship. That's it. The alternative to talking here is that we are not happy with what the other is doing, but we say nothing, so the other changes nothing and we remain unhappy; or, keep staying in a relationship that can't work and waste time. 

I suspect some of you would tell me that I should already have seen that I am in the latter position, and should simply divorce and stop asking for more talking. But here I feel that we really have a lot that's working, and I'm not convinced that whatever she's not happy about in me cannot be changed. I do assume that it's possible that I am doing something wrong, that I have not noticed that I have treated her unfairly in some ways, that somehow I have not been a good enough partner - and maybe I can't see that and try to change it, unless she points it out to me, people have such blindspots sometimes. I imagine that we divorce and later meet, and this time, outside of the emotional investment and thanks to the distance of time, she tells me, "well yeah, the truth is I had this and that problem with you", and I would be like, why didn't you say anything, I could have easily changed that. That in my opinion would be unfortunate and I am trying to prevent it.

However I accept another thing redswim30 noted - conversation can't be done forever, if it doesn't give results. Yeah, I think we shouldn't give up on conversation that fast, but that doesn't mean I am ok with spending my whole life in an endless conversation that doesn't make things better - at a certain point you have to admit that it would simply be better to find another partner, with whom you won't have the same problem. But I guess I do not feel that we have reached this point yet.

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, tenochtitlan said:

And yes - in my mind the value of conversation is objective to such a degree that we should try to convince people in it. It's not a kind of value that anyone could decide for himself - if we don't have conversation, we don't have anything. As one thinker I read says, conversation is the only alternative to violence. 

So I don't believe that there is a good therapist who rejects the value of conversation. Even if he takes some position of listening and accepting the decision of the person to stay out of conversation, there will be some sort of examining where this resistance comes from, and a successful therapy, in my opinion, should decrease a person's resistance to conversation. One outcome of therapy for example could be that we understand why she avoids talking - she may not become more willing to talk, but just knowing why she doesn't want to talk is in my opinion a significant step forward. And that's something that comes up only thanks to some form of conversation. 

My main point is the same -your expectations of what a therapist is supposed to do in this situation is unrealistic and you're imposing your own beliefs and assumptions in a way that will make the therapy ineffective for you or far less effective.  I don't think a good therapist has many "objective" beliefs at all -she deals with the individual situation. 

I can see many many examples where conversation between a married couple would be of no value and/or harmful depending on context/timing/how they converse.  And you have your own value judgments about what a conversation would mean and how it would go and how it was gone.  Your wife may not think she avoids talking especially not for any negative reasons.    Your therapist may be of the same opinion.  Maybe therapy would help you explore why you have all these assumptions about how you and she are supposed to interact.  

Certainly therapists will have certain objective truths -like, it's not ok to avoid talking in a matter of life and death if you have information that could save a life.  Or it's not ok to promise your spouse you will have a sit down conversation at a certain time then sit down and arbitrarily  refuse to talk -because that is breaking a promise. But therapy is not about you sitting there with your notions of what is objectively true when it's far far more individual and nuanced in your situation. Then I wouldn't bother. 

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, tenochtitlan said:

to talk about what we could do about her inability to show her feelings - are we really ok with the idea that our interaction will be this way till the end of our lives?

You have no idea if there is any inability.  She may be making specific choices at specific times.  And if you approach it that way you're making it her issue and her fault.  What if she thinks you choose not to express yourself in a productive or supportive way, that you choose to lay out your feelings in a way that is concerning to her or repugnant? What if she feels that the way you want her to "show" her feelings is controlling?

Why is it that if you're missing something you've done wrong you get a pass as to a "blindspot" but it's a given that she is "unable" to show her feelings? I agree that divorce might be the solution and that is sad -what I disagree with is the didactic and kind of manipulative way  you'r approaching this like using a therapist to get to the bottom of how you've framed the issues rather than her going to therapy because she sees that she is having difficulty getitng along with you and wants to see why and what can be done?

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, tenochtitlan said:

  But in more abstract terms, the essence of conversation is in my mind 

Have you tried asking direct questions?  Such as are you attracted to me? What is the reason we're not intimate? Are you happy with our finances? It may help to just get to the point about what exactly you want to know.

From your description, is she giving you the silent treatment or avoiding sex completely? 

It's ok to just come out and ask specifically what's on your mind. For example if you can express yourself in a clear succinct manner it may be easier for her to give you the answers you want. 

If you veer off tangentially into philosophy, existentialism, circumstantiality, rhetorical theories and such, it may be difficult for her to figure out what information you are looking for.

 

[tenochtitlan]

22 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I can see many many examples where conversation between a married couple would be of no value and/or harmful depending on context/timing/how they converse.

I could agree with that. This is points to the fact that conversation can be done wrong, not that conversation done right can be useless or harmful. The way I see conversation, there is really no good alternative to it. I'd be interested to hear one of your examples, if you have the time. I think I will discover that that which is harmful in your example is not exactly what I mean by conversation or is simply conversation done wrong. Of course I'm not saying I'm the master of conversation and I can guarantee I will do it right, but really, there is no alternative tool. What else would you do, if you can't talk to each other?

 

22 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Maybe therapy would help you explore why you have all these assumptions about how you and she are supposed to interact.  

Yes, and that will be done thanks to a sort of conversation. Moreover, me and my wife could do this examination ourselves, without a third side, if she was open to conversation, as paradoxical as it may sound - there is no disagreement or difference that cannot be sorted out by conversation, including the inadequate ideas of what conversation is about. 

 

22 hours ago, Batya33 said:

But therapy is not about you sitting there with your notions of what is objectively true when it's far far more individual and nuanced in your situation. Then I wouldn't bother. 

I think most people who go to therapy don't go with their most adequate view of how therapy should work. Indeed they go with many inadequate and broken beliefs about many things, including therapy itself, and therapy could help with that too. But yeah, certain attitudes can surely make it harder. But again - the only way for my inadequate beliefs or views to be solved is by conversation. I can't suddenly decide to make my beliefs perfect by snapping my fingers - I have to be pushed somehow by the external world, and this can be much facilitated by human interaction. This thing that we are doing here is just that - conversation that helps me sort things out. If here you succeed in changing my inadequate beliefs about conversation, it will be precisely thanks to your skill in conversation. 

22 hours ago, Batya33 said:

You have no idea if there is any inability.  She may be making specific choices at specific times.  And if you approach it that way you're making it her issue and her fault.  What if she thinks you choose not to express yourself in a productive or supportive way, that you choose to lay out your feelings in a way that is concerning to her or repugnant? What if she feels that the way you want her to "show" her feelings is controlling?

Ok, inability was the wrong choice of word. I do think she is making a choice, I just want to understand it, and I don't see how that can happen without talking. As I said, I am open to understanding and accepting that this is all my fault, but I don't see how I can do that without it being shown to me in conversation. 

 

22 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I disagree with is the didactic and kind of manipulative way  you'r approaching this like using a therapist to get to the bottom of how you've framed the issues rather than her going to therapy because she sees that she is having difficulty getitng along with you and wants to see why and what can be done?

I don't understand this. I'm not saying why she should go to therapy - I need the therapy, because I need things to get better between us. Maybe she doesn't. Or maybe she could have a totally different reason to benefit from therapy. Again - I can only know this by conversation and I keep failing to understand how all of this that we have discussed is better when we stay in the dark about the other person's feelings and needs. 

[tenochtitlan]

22 hours ago, Batya33 said:

You have no idea if there is any inability.

By the way, I missed that - I am talking about another inability here, not the inability to express herself in conversation, but the inability to show affection. This is, as I described, in case she is right that she really does feel about me the way I'd like to, but for some reason is unable to show it to me in behavior - like touching, kissing, and so on, physical affection. Because this is what she has said - there is no problem with me or the way she feels about me, it's just hormones, because of which she doesn't feel the urge to touch me. Interestingly, she says that she would miss it, if I stopped touching and kissing her and paying attention to her, and if I stopped telling her how beautiful she is, yet doesn't seem to notice that I am missing the same thing from her too. 

[tenochtitlan]

22 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Have you tried asking direct questions?  Such as are you attracted to me? What is the reason we're not intimate? Are you happy with our finances? It may help to just get to the point about what exactly you want to know.

This is the hormones explanation - it's a problem with hormones, she says. As I said, she really does have some hormonal problems, but as redswim30 suggested, there is really the feeling that she is making a choice, there is a reason why she isn't showing physical affection that is beyond hormones. I have tried several times to probe this from different angles, but she keeps saying there is nothing, no problem with me or anything, and I keep feeling this is not the whole truth. But again, what if it is, what am I supposed to do with that? 

Maybe something I haven't asked is, is she ok with living this way forever? If not, let's try to do something about it. If yes, then I have to really consider if I want to stay - I certainly don't find it ok to live my whole life this way. It would be perfect for me if we stage the conversation such that I ask only yes-or-no questions, so she doesn't have to explain herself much, but I guess she would find the idea annoying, she doesn't like such contrived and artificial things, it would feel too formal. 

22 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

From your description, is she giving you the silent treatment or avoiding sex completely? 

She's kind of doing both partly - there is some of what I'd call silent treatment, and some avoidance of sex.

But we are not sitting there in silence - we do talk about stuff a lot of the time, she only gets closed when the topic becomes serious - not only about our relationship, but about anything serious. With some exceptions, she seems to prefer to avoid anything that requires too much uncomfortable honesty or formulating opinions about complex topics. That is actually one of the few things I don't completely like about her. I am an intellectually-minded person, I like talking about deep stuff, while she prefers to stay on the level of the mundane and practical. She has in fact told me in one occasion that I might have felt better with a more intellectual girl, since she sees how I've had many interesting conversations with female friends, but I told her that in that scenario there will be other problems. I actually like being with someone less intellectual, more down-to-earth, more alive, yet I do miss the opportunity to talk with her about what excites me sometimes. 

When we have talked about us, she always said as little as possible, many times didn't say anything when I needed her to, and if I push her and tell her what, aren't you going to say anything, and she might tell me something like, what do you expect me to say? She also seems to carefully avoid saying anything that might hurt me - like, if I ask her directly about our finances, as you say, she might tell me she would prefer to have more money, but if I bring up my doubts that maybe she values me only for the money and so on, which is what is somewhat suggested by the chat I saw, she would deny it. So I often feel she just afraid to tell me how she really feels. It doesn't help that those denials are not very convincing - I imagine, if she told me she fears that I might not value or appreciate her as a person, I would find that very problematic and would show her how absurd this is and will do whatever I can to convince her otherwise. While she simply says "no, of course not" with a relatively even tone, and that's it. It makes me feel she doesn't care how I feel.

As for sex, she has said she has no desire whatsoever, and that that is not my fault in any way, that it's all hormonal problems. She does have some interest in sex rarely, as she admitted, only when I "push her", in other words, as a result of my initiative - if I do nothing, she would completely forget about it. And again, I kind of believe that, but it's only part of the story - like, if I were the hottest man she could imagine, she would find it easier to escape this lack of libido, and I feel there may be other things about me that contribute, like the money issue - if I were rich and were always giving her anything she wanted and allowed her to quit her job - she would be all over me. So we do it sometimes, but it's rare, and entirely on my initiative, which sometimes feels a bit like doing it against her will, she isn't very enthusiastic, which I don't like.

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, tenochtitlan said:

  , if I ask her directly about our finances, as you say, she might tell me she would prefer to have more money, but if I bring up my doubts that maybe she values me only for the money and so on, which is what is somewhat suggested by the chat I saw, she would deny it. 

If you start accusing her of using you for money, dressed up as "intellectual conversation", it's doubtful that would help with intimacy or your marriage. 

It seems like if you keep probing and picking and insinuating and so on, she's eventually going to use her Miranda rights and remain silent because she's afraid you'll use it against her.

The idea that you need SALT talks and hostage negotiating to talk sincerely with your own wife seems a bit extreme.

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, tenochtitlan said:

What else would you do, if you can't talk to each other?

You don't know that you two "can't" talk to each other -you only know that the way you talk to each other now isn't effective.  And "conversation done right" is another value judgment plus hopelessly vague.  

Here's an example.  My son and I cooked together for the first time in too long as an additional, belated Father's Day gift.  I tend to be a micromanager/controlling -meaning I have that tendency and I squelch it and work very hard at that especially with my teen son.  (Also I didn't want to have to go back to the store if somehow he didn't chop up the tofu on the cutting board lol). 

So I could have had an "ongoing conversation" with him about the instructions for the soup, what to do first, second, third.  But I knew that talking too much or having him interact verbally ran the risk of him feeling controlled even if I wasn't. 

So I made myself be silent as much as possible plus take physical space from him in the small kitchen.  Let him make his own mistakes, let him ask me if he needed guidance.  He said while chopping tofu "wow this is more fun than a video game!"  Total success. 

Less was more.  I think it's a good analogy. I wanted a very specific outcome - that we wouldn't have too many spills/mistakes etc so I wouldn't have to go shopping to replace items, or feel frustrated lol.  I could have insisted on ongoing "conversation" -engaging him verbally so that every micro-instruction was followed to my preferences. 

But instead I gave him the freedom of my silence and space and let him figure it out so he could feel: competent/independent/creative/resourceful.  I put my outcome aside in favor of those outcomes.  By shutting up.  I didn't insist he narrate what he was doing and why etc.  

Had I taken your approach -made him talk or had a Talk before we cooked where I expressed my concerns about him in the kitchen - he likely would have clammed up, and actually then been stressed and made mistakes while cooking.  Then I would have told myself -if I were you -see he "can't talk" and he won't tell me how he is feeling and we can't have an open conversation.  But it wouldn't be can't -it would be my preconceived and wrong notions that if he couldn't listen to my concerns and express his feelings there was some sort of inabilty to have a proper conversation.

You can tell me oh it's just cooking/soup no tragedy if it doesn't work out, not a situation where you really want to know what the other person is feeling - but I strongly believe it is that basic when it comes to how you interact with a loved one.

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, tenochtitlan said:

By the way, I missed that - I am talking about another inability here, not the inability to express herself in conversation, but the inability to show affection. This is, as I described, in case she is right that she really does feel about me the way I'd like to, but for some reason is unable to show it to me in behavior - like touching, kissing, and so on, physical affection. Because this is what she has said - there is no problem with me or the way she feels about me, it's just hormones, because of which she doesn't feel the urge to touch me. Interestingly, she says that she would miss it, if I stopped touching and kissing her and paying attention to her, and if I stopped telling her how beautiful she is, yet doesn't seem to notice that I am missing the same thing from her too. 

It's not an inability.  It's a choice.  I do know of new moms especially who are nursing and/or holding their non-sleeping baby all the time -the last thing they want to do is be touched by their spouse or anyone else (I didn't feel that way). 

Hormonal? Sure if you're not feeling well you might not want to be touched - like if you have a cold, a fever, a tummy ache and you might not have sexual desire. Same with a hormonal or chemical imbalance. It's not an inability with very rare exception.

What help is she getting for the hormonal imbalance? Also many spouses don't feel the "urge" at a particular time but they give their spouse a hug or kiss anyway because their spouse needs that affection and very often it sparks desire. Giving love is a choice. 

So like if she was too tired to go to work or do housework and wasn't motivated she just wouldn't do it??

[Batya33]

14 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

if I ask her directly about our finances, as you say, she might tell me she would prefer to have more money, but if I bring up my doubts that maybe she values me only for the money and so on, which is what is somewhat suggested by the chat I saw, she would deny it. 

But that's still having  a conversation -- she's just not responding to the script in your head.  Maybe she's lying to you, lying to yourself or it's simply a reaction to your tone/timing/context.  

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, tenochtitlan said:

I could agree with that. This is points to the fact that conversation can be done wrong, not that conversation done right can be useless or harmful. The way I see conversation, there is really no good alternative to it. I'd be interested to hear one of your examples, if you have the time. I think I will discover that that which is harmful in your example is not exactly what I mean by conversation or is simply conversation done wrong. Of course I'm not saying I'm the master of conversation and I can guarantee I will do it right, but really, there is no alternative tool. What else would you do, if you can't talk to each other?

 

Yes, and that will be done thanks to a sort of conversation. Moreover, me and my wife could do this examination ourselves, without a third side, if she was open to conversation, as paradoxical as it may sound - there is no disagreement or difference that cannot be sorted out by conversation, including the inadequate ideas of what conversation is about. 

 

I think most people who go to therapy don't go with their most adequate view of how therapy should work. Indeed they go with many inadequate and broken beliefs about many things, including therapy itself, and therapy could help with that too. But yeah, certain attitudes can surely make it harder. But again - the only way for my inadequate beliefs or views to be solved is by conversation. I can't suddenly decide to make my beliefs perfect by snapping my fingers - I have to be pushed somehow by the external world, and this can be much facilitated by human interaction. This thing that we are doing here is just that - conversation that helps me sort things out. If here you succeed in changing my inadequate beliefs about conversation, it will be precisely thanks to your skill in conversation. 

Ok, inability was the wrong choice of word. I do think she is making a choice, I just want to understand it, and I don't see how that can happen without talking. As I said, I am open to understanding and accepting that this is all my fault, but I don't see how I can do that without it being shown to me in conversation. 

 

I don't understand this. I'm not saying why she should go to therapy - I need the therapy, because I need things to get better between us. Maybe she doesn't. Or maybe she could have a totally different reason to benefit from therapy. Again - I can only know this by conversation and I keep failing to understand how all of this that we have discussed is better when we stay in the dark about the other person's feelings and needs. 

It's not better to stay in the dark.  The thing is you've expressed your feelings and needs to her. No darkness. And her choice not to be open with you is her expressing her feelings in this way -she doesn't feel comfortable -likely because of the context - to express more than she has expressed -she's told you she has no real desire for sex, she's told you she's not with you for the money.  That's not darkness. And her silence is her expressing her feeling of not wanting to talk further.  

I agree with your ultimate goal for therapy. I pointed out the many assumptions you made about what generalizations the therapist would be operating under and I shared my opinion that going in with those assumptions can sabotage results from therapy. 

Also I don't get your either or - I have many intelligent conversations with my husband -we are in the same general field/very similar academic pursuits and backgrounds - and they are down to earth.  Do you think she is your intellectual equal? Do you think she is as smart as you? 

[tenochtitlan]

19 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

The idea that you need SALT talks and hostage negotiating to talk sincerely with your own wife seems a bit extreme.

I just need to know how she feels, and she's not going to tell me if I ask her. So all I can do is guess what it might be and ask her if it's that. 

 

19 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

If you start accusing her of using you for money

This is again too strongly stated. It's very far from an accusation, I am just sharing with her my doubts, because this is how I feel based on her behavior and things she has said. 

So then: if I feel this way, what should I do, if I can't share it with her, so that I can find out what she really feels? 

And again, this may be my problem, but I don't know what to do about it - I can't shake the feeling that she doesn't appreciate me; so if in every conversation she denies it, but keeps behaving in a way that makes feel that way, what should I do?

[tenochtitlan]

20 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Less was more.  I think it's a good analogy.

I think I understand, you have a point here. That does make sense and I am aware of this kind of dynamic on some level, I'm consciously trying to limit my natural need for open conversation. 

But still, several things.

First, I understand the principle of interaction demonstrated by the story, but I think it matters that this is a parent-child, and not a partner-partner interaction. I am doing very much the same when it comes to my child, but I find it harder to see how it can work with my wife. Of course I know it can in certain cases, but I'm not sure it would in this case. Maybe you've had the impression that I've pushed her to talk openly too much, but I really haven't - we have had like 7 or 8 such conversations last year and that was it. I saw that it's not working and that she is resisting it, so I stopped and tried to give her some space and see how she would behave, and to try to think of a better approach. And what I've seen is that things don't get much better - if I "give her space" about this I feel she would just do nothing.

Second, this point that, had you had an open conversation with your son, he would have clammed up - that is significant here. Because if I were in your son's position, I wouldn't have clammed up, see. So I think we shouldn't look at this as if this "less is more" approach is always right with everyone and it's somehow the high level way to interact with people - no, with some people open communication really is possible and it works. I guess it just took me a long time to figure out with whom it wouldn't work, because it works so well with me and as a child I always assumed it should work for everyone. 
But I understand it on some level - that there is something not quite romantic to openly tell your partner everything you expect them to do, there must be this silent, non-verbal mutual understanding, in order for the whole thing to feel genuine. It's just hard for me, I guess my brain works almost entirely on the level of words.

[tenochtitlan]

20 hours ago, Batya33 said:

What help is she getting for the hormonal imbalance? Also many spouses don't feel the "urge" at a particular time but they give their spouse a hug or kiss anyway because their spouse needs that affection and very often it sparks desire. Giving love is a choice. 

So like if she was too tired to go to work or do housework and wasn't motivated she just wouldn't do it??

Haha right. I anticipated that question - she isn't getting any help. She is afraid of hormone replacement therapy or that kind of stuff, and not without reason, there are often pretty bad side effects. Also a factor is that she's constantly on some restrictive diet which doesn't allow hormones to recover, but she has this obsession with being thin that doesn't permit her to pay more attention to hormones. We could say that being thin is more important to her than fixing hormones so that she has interest in sex, and she, quite consciously, sacrifices one for the other. If she went to a doctor he would immediately tell her to stop the dieting temporarily, and she wouldn't want to do that.

I agree about the choice part. It makes sense to do it sometimes independent of whether you feel like it or not, because it's a part the way you show your partner affection and that you care about them. 

And that is why I feel there must be a reason why she is making this choice, and at this point I have no idea how to find out what the reason is without her telling me with words. 

[tenochtitlan]

20 hours ago, Batya33 said:

But that's still having  a conversation -- she's just not responding to the script in your head.

Partly yes, but also it's a very restricted form of conversation - mostly I am talking and as I said in many cases she says nothing. And notice also - when later I have brought up this silence of hers, she admits that is was weird for her not to say anything in that instance, but she would say, she is just like that, what could she do, she is not a person of words. 

[tenochtitlan]

20 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Do you think she is your intellectual equal? Do you think she is as smart as you?

I do not. Maybe you will take this to be a bad sign or to signify some form of arrogance or self-obsession on my part, but I think it's just a statement of fact that probably everyone that knows us both will agree with. And I generally have no problem with that, I have never had the intention to get a smart girlfriend, I am attracted to other things in other people, smartness is what I have for myself, in a way, but other things that I don't have I'm looking for in other people - like being what I call "alive", fun, less serious, and so on. So I'm happy with the way she is in terms of "IQ", I just sometimes would like us to be able to have a "deeper" conversation about life and stuff, I miss that a bit, after all she is my best friend in the world, and I feel that inability of hers to share my interests and excitement about intellectual stuff as a bit of a distance between us. But again, it's fine.

And I agree that it shouldn't be either-or - you surely can be intellectual and down to earth at the same time, and I am trying to be that way, but my impression is that most people are actually either one or the other. Maybe down to earth is not the right phrase, it's hard to explain, and I don't think it's critical here.

[tenochtitlan]

20 hours ago, Batya33 said:

It's not better to stay in the dark.  The thing is you've expressed your feelings and needs to her. No darkness. And her choice not to be open with you is her expressing her feelings in this way -she doesn't feel comfortable -likely because of the context - to express more than she has expressed -she's told you she has no real desire for sex, she's told you she's not with you for the money.  That's not darkness. And her silence is her expressing her feeling of not wanting to talk further.

That's all quite right and quite key for the whole situation. She has answered my questions, but again, I keep feeling what she said is not the whole story - there is something more beyond the hormones, there is something that makes her "make the choice" to limit her display of affection. I'd like to know what it is so that I could fix it, so how could I find out without her openly telling me? I'm tired of guessing but I guess that's all have now.

And honestly, I don't quite believe what she told me. This is a key problem - what should I do, if I can't know for sure what she thinks and feels? She will keep saying that she appreciates me, I will keep feeling that's not true. The "showing affection" part is major - whatever she feels about me, I'm not satisfied with this limited amount of physical affection. But even aside from that - I can't shake the feeling she thinks stuff like that I am less valuable because I'm not as rich as her friend's husband. It's painful. Maybe I'm imagining it all? But it remains how I feel and I feel stuck about that. 

One theory I had - that she has two different levels inside, so to speak. On the one level, deep in her primitive core, she is a materialist, who wants to be rich, live in luxury, who thinks that men's value comes from how much money they can make, that the value of women is indicated by how much money their man is bringing to them, and she resents me for not being rich and feels ashamed of me in front of her rich-husband friends; she feels mad at me that I have chosen a path that's not very lucrative - art and writing; in a way she doesn't care about other people - partly art and writing are manifestations of my concern about others, the problems of the society, the human condition and so on, and I want to be useful and contribute somehow to the relief of their suffering, but she would care only about how much money what I do brings for wine and luxurious hotels. On the other level, closer to the surface of consciousness, she is very moral and has often expressed pronounced indignation at materialist women on tv, she believes being that way is bad, and so she is suppressing that lower level in her and denying it. So she sometimes has some slip of the tongue, which allows the first level to come to the surface, but otherwise will play the opposite role. I suspect she realizes what she wants from me and how she sees me on the first level, but on the second level feels guilty about that and suppresses it. So she will never openly display materialism or tell me she resents me because I am not rich, but it might nevertheless be true. And I'm not sure at this point if I can be ok with that.