how to fix communication?

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

I just need to know how she feels, and she's not going to tell me if I ask her. So all I can do is guess what it might be and ask her if it's that.

She did tell you. She mentioned something about hormones, but you seem to have chosen a host of alternative theories instead of believing her.

She did tell you she's ok with the financial situation and again, you superimposed a collection of theories to deny her reality and replace it with your philosophizing. 

It's not that she won't talk to you, it's that you don't believe her. When she does tell you what she thinks or feels you seem to deconstruct the whole thing to be more consistent with your alternative theories.

That's not communicating, that's using her as a blank canvas to superimpose all your thoughts on then being angry that she has thoughts of her own which aren't consistent with all your theories about her and her motives.

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

So I think we shouldn't look at this as if this "less is more" approach is always right with everyone and it's somehow the high level way to interact with people - no, with some people open communication really is possible and it works. I guess it just took me a long time to figure out with whom it wouldn't work, because it works so well with me and as a child I always assumed it should work for everyone. 

That is out of left field -is that how you respond to your partner - go to this sort of exaggeration of what she said and use "everyone" or "always" etc -because then that's not a conversation -that's you talking to yourself basically and taking what she said out of context.  Obviously what you wrote is true and in fact I never wrote or said that.  Ironically my opinion is you tend in your posts to have a one size fits all -your size that is - to what a conversation should entail between you and your partner and  you want the therapist to be in line with your views.

I think very often less is more is far more open in communication than trying to convince someone to open up or where a person is "open" and overshares in the name of  - for example - "honesty" or "just letting it all hang out" - that might be open as in mouth is open and a stream of words coming out - but doesn't mean it's open in a communication sense where the other person receiving all this "openness" is then able to communicate back.  

I'm not referring to high levels or low levels - - you are - you have a notion of how a conversation should go and to you it includes your wife sharing what she is feeling and why and when you want to have a conversation.  That's the impression I get.  

[Batya33]

54 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

She did tell you. She mentioned something about hormones, but you seem to have chosen a host of alternative theories instead of believing her.

She did tell you she's ok with the financial situation and again, you superimposed a collection of theories to deny her reality and replace it with your philosophizing. 

It's not that she won't talk to you, it's that you don't believe her. When she does tell you what she thinks or feels you seem to deconstruct the whole thing to be more consistent with your alternative theories.

That's not communicating, that's using her as a blank canvas to superimpose all your thoughts on then being angry that she has thoughts of her own which aren't consistent with all your theories about her and her motives.

He communicated it better than I could. I agree.

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

I do not. Maybe you will take this to be a bad sign or to signify some form of arrogance or self-obsession on my part, but I think it's just a statement of fact that probably everyone that knows us both will agree with. And I generally have no problem with that, I have never had the intention to get a smart girlfriend, I am attracted to other things in other people, smartness is what I have for myself, in a way, but other things that I don't have I'm looking for in other people - like being what I call "alive", fun, less serious, and so on. So I'm happy with the way she is in terms of "IQ", I just sometimes would like us to be able to have a "deeper" conversation about life and stuff, I miss that a bit, after all she is my best friend in the world, and I feel that inability of hers to share my interests and excitement about intellectual stuff as a bit of a distance between us. But again, it's fine.

And I agree that it shouldn't be either-or - you surely can be intellectual and down to earth at the same time, and I am trying to be that way, but my impression is that most people are actually either one or the other. Maybe down to earth is not the right phrase, it's hard to explain, and I don't think it's critical here.

So I think you have very preconceived -and respectfully -wrong notions about this particularly because as some have pointed out you might need some work on emotional intelligence.  My husband and I are both very smart, very educated and he is definitely smarter than me -he is brilliant and scary brilliant -he is also good at math and loves math and I hate it/fear it at times LOL.  He is a silly, goofy person -I'm baffled by your assumption that smart people are more "serious" -in fact I think those who are good at banter/being fun/funny/silly are often very smart in more ways than one and enjoy being silly because they are smart.

Where are these assumptions coming from? Do you like feeling superior/more powerful than her in these aspects or believe you are

I specifically went for men who I found smarter than me - I like it- I like the challenge of it.  I think he thinks he is smarter than me at math -that is a fact (and like science/statistics, etc) and he (like his parents, my late inlaws) are extremely bright and humble -not self deprecating to any real extent as that would be an issue for me if he were. 

The humility part means that he relates to all people in a healthful and connecting type way and never comes across as condescending unless we're bickering lol then we likely both do.  (Never ever condescending to anyone ever he interacts with at work or in public etc -he's a good person of integrity -never uses his superior intelligence in any way like that ever and neither did his parents ever).

I don't think people are one way or the other.  I've known and been close to and worked with many brilliant people and less than brilliant people -it's a personality thing and what you choose to do with your smarts -whether it's academic smarts/natural smarts/emotional smarts/technical smarts or some mish mash of all of the above.  

It could be -could be -that you come across as condescending to your wife and/or make assumptions about her "ability" to go deep - maybe it's you who can't go deep on certain things she would go deep on.   A dose of more humility might go a long way?

[tenochtitlan]

On 7/3/2023 at 12:35 PM, Wiseman2 said:

It's not that she won't talk to you, it's that you don't believe her

Your post overall is a bit too oversimplifying things as usual, and a bit too accusatory, but this specific sentence is true. I did say that more than once, so it's not really new, but still, it is true. So then what can I do? I can't force myself to believe her when I just don't. Can you be truly certain that I'm wrong in sensing that this is not the whole truth?

[tenochtitlan]

On 7/3/2023 at 1:25 PM, Batya33 said:

my opinion is you tend in your posts to have a one size fits all -your size that is - to what a conversation should entail between you and your partner

 

On 7/3/2023 at 1:25 PM, Batya33 said:

you have a notion of how a conversation should go and to you it includes your wife sharing what she is feeling and why and when you want to have a conversation.

Of course I understand that this could be limiting, but I don't understand what is the alternative. You seem to approach everything I say with a certain relativization that I can't move around. Of course however I frame it in words you could say that there are dangers in this framing. Of course you can find ways in which "open conversation" is bad and maybe ways can be found in which "good relationship" is bad. I don't know what to do with that. What is the alternative? Of course I will have a certain expectation of what "good" or "open" or "done right" conversation is or "should be" or however you want to frame it, however much you try to avoid "low levels and high levels" it is not possible to not have any preference for some qualities of conversation over others, however subtle and impossible to put into words they are. If you tell me you have no preference or expectation whatsoever, I don't think I can believe you. She also has an idea of how conversation should go, and so does everyone. And we are trying to meet in the middle, so to speak, to find a common language. 

I have said so many times in so many ways how open I am to changing my approach, and I keep being accused of closedmindedness. So I say again : I am open to change. I hope it's clear. 

I may struggle to find a common language with her and with you, but I keep trying, and this part of being open. I really don't think that this is "my understanding that I am imposing on conversation", there is really no alternative - if you stop looking for the common language there is no conversation anymore. 

On 7/3/2023 at 1:37 PM, Batya33 said:

It could be -could be -that you come across as condescending to your wife and/or make assumptions about her "ability" to go deep - maybe it's you who can't go deep on certain things she would go deep on.   A dose of more humility might go a long way?

Ok, so I was just honest about what I think, I have not suggested I like to feel superior. I did say that other people around us think the same and she would immediately confirm if you asked her, and there are many stories that make it obvious. As with you and your husband, it is not and has never been a problem for her. 
You might as well suggest that it's all the other way around - it's actually her that wants to talk to me, but I avoid it, and she wants intimacy, but I'm not giving it to her. 

On the general point, something in my experience created the impression in me that smarter people tend to be more serious. Of course I know that you can be anything and have met all kinds of people, but have observed this general tendency. Ok, maybe I have encountered too small a sample, I have not assumed that it "should be so" or something, it's just what experience has made me expect. I'm not holding on to it in any way. But again - maybe serious is not the right word. I certainly do believe that there are some character traits that are more likely to go with being smart, whichever they really are, and however many people we can point to, who are not like that - there must be some correlation between high intelligence and character for many reasons. But I think this is a digression, we don't need to agree on this.

I really don't see where these accusations are coming from. Ok, I'm not saying it's all her fault, maybe it's not, I already said that in previous posts, but I don't see why it should be assumed that there is some deep and big problem with me. There is no reason to assume that I have been condescending, and I don't believe that I have been that way.

It seems to me that this topic has kind of run out of usefulness. Yes, you all made some good points and made me think in new directions, for which I am grateful, but recently I'm just defending myself against unwarranted and undeserved accusations. 

It's like, yes, since I am open to change, I am open to you proposing what the problem might be with me, not only with her, of course, but I don't feel that this is done in a friendly way - like assuming that I am on the good side, really trying to find a win-win solution for everyone and respect everyone's position in this situation. The way I read your recent posts is like, you're bad, everything bad can be expected of you, and there is no hope for you.

 

[tenochtitlan]

On 7/3/2023 at 12:35 PM, Wiseman2 said:

She did tell you she's ok with the financial situation and again, you superimposed a collection of theories

Ok, how do you make sense of that - she told me she's ok with the financial situation, but then in the chat with her friend she tells her that it's not good with a handsome, but poor man, and that she would teach her daughter in subtle ways to choose men based on money? 

And about me not believing her - do you mean to say that you have never been in a situation in which you had no evidence that someone is not telling the whole truth, yet couldn't shake the feeling something's wrong with what they are saying, based on their behavior and other things they have said?

[Batya33]

I don't feel I've accused you of anything and I'm sorry you're taking it that way.  I think you're trying to hide under verbage/pyschospeak and generalities to avoid the basics.  

Yes you are right that if two people are not speaking the same language they cannot converse with words.  My sense is you are getting in your own way because you want to get certain points across and have your wife "understand" and see things from your perspective and this bias is like noise in your head so despite "trying" you're listening with an agenda.

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

Your post overall is a bit too oversimplifying things as usual, 

It's possible both things are "true". She's ok with the status quo and has enough emotional intelligence to not mention that sometimes she fantasizes about having more disposable income and a happier life. I don't take offense at being accused of being too simplemided because apparently you're not getting the input you would prefer or find useful.

[tenochtitlan]

I still have some issues of the old type, those of course can't be resolved conclusively, but the situation is better now in a variety of ways. We both still have different communication styles and that stands in the way sometimes, but after having many conversations I think we are in a better place, every next conversation was building a bit upon the previous one. 

Also I noticed that having this discussion here is both useful and not useful, and because of the ways it's the latter I stopped showing up here. I was useful as a trigger to make sense of the situation and to consider alternative viewpoints that might not have occurred to me, but it wasn't useful, because, let's face it, with some of you I wasn't able to find common ground and the conversation was only making me more tense and angry, and also, for complex reasons, it made the problems look heavier than they actually were. I realized it wasn't useful to fight with you to defend my view of the situation. 

So now it's better, even though not completely resolved, and as I said I don't think that this can ever be completely resolved, and adding the aforementioned reasons, I won't be taking part in this anymore. 

I just wanted to say thank you to all of you who tried to be helpful. It's appreciated. 

Take care.