how to fix communication?

[redswim30]

On 6/17/2023 at 4:58 AM, tenochtitlan said:

 

My wife and I have issues, but we can't talk about them. I want to, but everytime we've done it in the past, she reacts defensive and angry, tells me that I've ruined her day off and such stuff. Also, her responses to my worries are not full of understanding and not very helpful. So I've learned to not bring it up, but it kills me to keep silent. And I can't talk to anyone else about this, and can't afford therapy. 

 

If this is all true- your marriage has ZERO chance of survival. 

Problems don't go away magically.  You HAVE to be able to discuss them openly and honestly- otherwise, your marriage is just a ticking time bomb waiting for ONE of you to get tired of it and leave. Everything else is just window dressing next to this BASIC problem/incompatibility. 

You have three choices. 

1. Tell her you are not happy with the way things are right now and that you HAVE to talk together to try and work things out. 

2. Learn to live with it forever. 

3. Get divorced. 

I would feel more empathy for your wife, but it sounds an awful lot like she's approaching you and your lives together from a place of contempt rather than love. 

Comparing to other couple isn't helpful-  "normal" is a myth and there's always going to be people in "better" situations than you and people in "worse" situations than you. 

Stonewalling you but then having energy to go party?   I hope you realize how unhealthy and unhelpful this is to your marriage. 

Your wife seems totally checked out of your marriage.  This being the case, review your above 3 options. 

[tenochtitlan]

On 6/19/2023 at 12:31 PM, Batya33 said:

I think there has to be a sense of respect for each others work and your wife seems not to respect your ambition and drive for your work   Has this always been true or just when reality hit ?

It wasn't so in the past. She told me in the beginning that it's important to her to find a very talented man, so she was happy with me. We studied together at uni, and she was constantly in the presence of what I did well and how impressed other people were by me, but now she is completely isolated from my career and only knows what I tell her. Maybe that's a factor. But also a deeper problem is that she doesn't understand why you would care to fight for working one specific thing, and not anything that pays the bills well enough, and doesn't understand things like deep curiosity, honest interest and the desire to be useful to the world, and so on. So I fear that to her my ambitions feel like meaningless egoism. 

 

On 6/19/2023 at 1:59 PM, Wiseman2 said:

If you work from home and she has to report to a workplace, it makes sense that you look after your own children, rather than her taking sick days or losing money. 

I am losing money too - I can't work and take care of the child, even though I work from home. Seems to me it's fair to split the sick days equally. 

 

On 6/19/2023 at 4:12 PM, Coily said:

She's clearly not so exhausted to go out for a party and dancing.

Noticed that. 

We had a short talk about this the other day in a slightly different light, which might still be useful. I told her that in my mind partying in such a hot way requires the same hormones that sex does, but she replied that in her mind the two are entirely unrelated. Interestingly however, she told me the rare times she does have some interest in sex are when I am pushing her, as it were, "inspiring her", otherwise she would completely forget about it. So maybe I should keep doing that, and not stay passive in waiting for her to decide she wants it, or be afraid that I might annoy her with showing that I want it.

On 6/19/2023 at 10:53 PM, catfeeder said:

Take her hand and tell her you understand. You’d like to manage these things as a team, and you’d like to learn more about changes she’d like from you.

I think I am doing that, but she keeps saying there is no problem with me or what I do, it's all in the hormones. 

 

On 6/20/2023 at 1:17 AM, Kampuniform3 said:

The Steven Duck model very accurately gauges a relationships' health, and you should tell your partner about this model, and your position relative to it.

I might actually do that. I think she would still resist it, but she might pay a bit more attention to the dangers of not talking. I think at this point she feels safe, taking me for granted, whatever she does, I want leave her. And I certainly have given her reasons to think that. 

 

12 hours ago, ADent42 said:

The goal is that you both feel comfortable and safe bringing up issues, discussing your feelings (good and bad) and figuring things out together.

One condition I could imagine she's in, is like, she sees that we want very different things and ways of living, and we have shown in previous conversations that those are very important to us and there are things we are not willing to give up, but also we are not willing to break up. So, she tells herself, there really isn't much point in talking, it will just be frustrating, let's instead ignore it and focus on wha't still good in our life. She just can't help but want what she wants, and she knows that want different things, and even, she knows I have my right to want what I want, it's not unreasonable, so she couldn't just demand that I give it up. That impossible situation is what she may be trying to avoid by avoiding conversations. 

 

On 6/19/2023 at 4:12 PM, Coily said:

It seems as if your wife is punishing you (withholding sex) for not living up to her idealized lifestyle. It also would explain why she is reluctant to talk about any of the problems, as she would have to realize her expectations and reality don't match; this can be very jarring.

Absolutely, this seems to sum it up very well. And I could see how talking about this could be hard - even if she sees to some extent that her desired lifestyle is idealized, she would still not want to give it up. Even if my words sound convincing, as she has told me, they still fail to change her inside, she wants what she wants. And so that moves "the burden of compromise" to my side, but then I feel, is it really right for me to give up things that I find so important, so that I could satisfy someone's infantile and superficial demands from life? Is this trade off really wise? I often think, if I do that, I would feel I've betrayed the good in the world, and have shown weakness. And I have done some of that, I have certainly done many more concessions than she has, we have agreed about that, and my feeling that that was an unwise move of weakness on my part is adding some poison to the interaction.

[tenochtitlan]

11 hours ago, redswim30 said:

You have three choices. 

1. Tell her you are not happy with the way things are right now and that you HAVE to talk together to try and work things out. 

2. Learn to live with it forever. 

3. Get divorced.

Exactly. Right now we are at 2, trying desperately to avoid 3, but not being willing to open up to 1 completely. And I am the main force pushing up to 1, while she's resisting it, preferring to stay at 2. 

It may be worth noting that I would lose much more than her, if we devorsed, for many reasons that are too long to explain. So, yes, I do care about my wife, maybe more than she does about me, and I want to salvage the relationship, but also I feel trapped by the inability to end it, if the salvaging fails, because the situation I'll be in after a diverse is worse than I half-functional relationship. 

One example - she would get the apartment that I bought with my money. And, she of course would keep the child, whom I will not be able to see most of the time. Also, I will have to pay her for the child, which, as far as I know, is usually much more than what I actually give for her while we are a family - and that is money I don't have. And so on. 

I do love her, but I don't think that I deserve to be a slave to her in the way I feel I am now, and I don't feel valued and respected, so yeah, those practical factors do significantly contribute to my motivation to fix things. 

But I think from the last posts one useful realization emerged - that way she sees conversation as useless, because we just want to live in very different ways now. Maybe there is a way to approach conversation taking that into account - saying ok, let's see what we are willing to change or negotiate, and how we can make the things that we are not willing to negotiate more bearable for the other.

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

 I feel trapped by the inability to end it,  - she would get the apartment that I bought with my money. , I will have to pay her for the child, which, as far as I know, is usually much more than what I actually give for her 

Perhaps a private and confidential consultation with an attorney could allay some of your concerns?

Contact an attorney with your situation and financial details. It's not necessarily a given that she gets the house, for example. 

Arm yourself with specific facts for your situation and jurisdiction. Especially if you feel she is too "infantile" to try to fix the marriage and try to make you happy.

 

[Batya33]

I doubt it's "all in the hormones" -she now resents your work because she's not keeping up her end of the bargain in a way -she knew she was marrying you-she new your work ethic/ambitions/passion for your career -she was all hands on deck and now it's "oh no I forgot to think about the reality of marriage and parenthood! I mean sure people change and marriage requires flexibility and in the big stuff like whether to have kids, what careers each want to pursue, lifestlye- it's also a package deal IMO.  

I don't think desire to dress up and party is the same as sexual desire for one's mate or that all motivation/energy is created equal. It concerns me that she is not motivated to work on increasing her motivation/energy level for sex- just passively blaming on hormones. 

Maybe you already wrote this but are there sort of out of the box/atypical times of day she might be more into it??

[redswim30]

6 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

Exactly. Right now we are at 2, trying desperately to avoid 3, but not being willing to open up to 1 completely. And I am the main force pushing up to 1, while she's resisting it, preferring to stay at 2. 

It may be worth noting that I would lose much more than her, if we devorsed, for many reasons that are too long to explain. So, yes, I do care about my wife, maybe more than she does about me, and I want to salvage the relationship, but also I feel trapped by the inability to end it, if the salvaging fails, because the situation I'll be in after a diverse is worse than I half-functional relationship. 

One example - she would get the apartment that I bought with my money. And, she of course would keep the child, whom I will not be able to see most of the time. Also, I will have to pay her for the child, which, as far as I know, is usually much more than what I actually give for her while we are a family - and that is money I don't have. And so on. 

I do love her, but I don't think that I deserve to be a slave to her in the way I feel I am now, and I don't feel valued and respected, so yeah, those practical factors do significantly contribute to my motivation to fix things. 

But I think from the last posts one useful realization emerged - that way she sees conversation as useless, because we just want to live in very different ways now. Maybe there is a way to approach conversation taking that into account - saying ok, let's see what we are willing to change or negotiate, and how we can make the things that we are not willing to negotiate more bearable for the other.

Why are you desperately avoiding Option 3?   If you can't talk about anything together, then you may as well get divorced and save both of you years of struggle for no good reason.  By your own admission, you are basically already living separate lives anyway.  You both wants things that the other cannot give you. 

What are you both holding onto here?  

If you have a good lawyer, divorce may not be as bleak as you imagine.   Father's rights are just as important as a mother's and courts will not (and cannot, unless abuse is involved) prevent you from seeing your child.  They also can't make you pay more in child support than you can actually afford, it's based on income- not what the other party "wants".   It's why some Dads only pay $100 a month and others pay $2500 a month.   I went thru this with my current husband and his ex who didn't understand why the court only made him pay what he could afford and not some outrageous and ridiculous number that she wanted. 

Yes, she will get some things.   I guess you need to decide- are those things more important to you than your happiness and having a wife that actually loves and respects you?  

You can't change her.  You can't make her care.  If she's unwilling to even talk to you, please don't waste your time in therapy.   You can't control her, you can only control what YOU do. 

So what are you going to do.  She has told you repeatedly she has no interest in Option 1.  So you need to pick between 

1. Staying complacent with her forever  

2.  Getting divorced

[tenochtitlan]

19 hours ago, Batya33 said:

she now resents your work because she's not keeping up her end of the bargain in a way

Yes, that's how it feels. I am surprised too that she didn't expect that from the beginning, I have never shown intention to be "rich", why is she unsatisfied of me not being rich now? I will repost some of what I said about this earlier:

"she criticized mercantile girls on tv, but shows many signs of wanting to live in luxury, as she has said, and once she literally said "I envy pretty girls, because they can find rich men", which I interpreted as "you are of no value to me as a person, I only need your money", and that hurt me. Also, I accidentally read a chat with her friend where she said essentially that girls should choose men based on money, and not handsomeness, as she did, which again made me feel awful, but I never told her that". 

Also, in that chat she said she would try to subtly and imperceptibly raise our daughter to choose men this way, based on money. That made me even angrier - she seems to want to influence my daughter's mindset behind my back, that's absurd.

That chat by the way is another dilemma - should I tell her about it? It is a burden to carry and I'd like to hear how she would explain it, but I'm afraid of her reaction. She might not believe me that I saw it accidentally and accuse me of reading her chats intentionally. Or what if she couldn't deny it? I always say how I want to be told the truth, but I do find the idea of her telling me directly that she would prefer to replace me with another richer man quite painful. Yet not telling her about it is always keeping me bitter to some extent, because whatever she says about how much she values me, I can always think of this chat and everything else would feel dishonest. 

19 hours ago, Batya33 said:

are there sort of out of the box/atypical times of day she might be more into it??

I don't think that there is much variation there. Maybe some days more than others, but not some times of the day more than others. But even if there is variation, it's hard to know - she never shows it. I could only guess by her positive mood and positive treatment of me, but it's still very much "from a distance" - she never has the initiative to kiss or touch me, and almost always reacts to my initiative in a way I perceive as cold. She never says anything about sex. So there have been many times when I was trying to "read the signs" and thought that she might be into it, only to discover there's nothing. 

Today I was wondering about this cold response to my initiative - ok, she doesn't have desire, but isn't it nevertheless pleasant to be kissed and touched and so on? The way I read her reaction is like, oh, stop bothering me. And if I tell her that she would deny it. 

16 hours ago, redswim30 said:

you need to decide- are those things more important to you than your happiness and having a wife that actually loves and respects you?  

I guess I still believe what we had can be recovered. Maybe this is a misleading bias I have - several times I have felt that what she wants takes away too much from me, but I've chosen to stay with her than to leave. That's why we live where she wants to live, not where I want. 

Another thing is that I feel guilty - she makes me feel like I am a failure and don't deserve any better. That I am really not giving her what most men can give her, and that other women will expect the same from me. Part of this is also this doubt that I understand the situation correctly - part of me says, are you sure you are in the right here? Maybe you are the bad guy in this movie. 

But maybe a major consideration is this conflict between her and my career - in the past I have also considered, wouldn't it be better to end this and acquire the freedom to do what I want - move to the city I want to live in, spend my time more on what I find meaningful, than on what makes more money, travel anytime I like, and so on. But now I feel I won't get this, if we divorce - because I will want to see my daughter anytime I am allowed to, I will have to stay in this city, and this is a big restriction to my plans. And, I will feel deep guilt for having destroyed my daughter's family. It will be my fault, because, despite all those signs of indifference and lack of appreciation, my wife actually doesn't want a divorce - she kind of seems to like this routine roommate-style existence. I feel I will lose much more than I would gain. 

The lawyer point is a good one - yes, I have made just a short research and I don't really know for certain what the outcome of a divorce would be. But a good lawyer, as far as I know, is expensive, and right now I don't see how I could afford one. And about the apartment - as far as I understood, since it's more likely for the child to be given to the mother, and the apartment is where the child has lived so far, the apartment will have to be given to the mother as well. And since it's as I said, acquired with my money entirely, I can think of several people who would see me as a utter disgrace, if I lost it to her, and I'm afraid of that. 

I feel that clear thinking may be lacking in all of this response, maybe you will be able to see what I'm missing. 

Here is also another way I conceptualized the whole thing yesterday: what if my suspicions that she doesn't care about me and doesn't value me are wrong, but I can't stop feeling that way? This has partly happened already - we have talked about it, she has denied it, but I can't completely believe her, I keep experiencing her behavior as an indication that she doesn't care. Who knows, maybe I am imagining it, maybe it's a normal behavior, these things are not objective. But in that case the situation seems unresolvable - I will always feel bad. And, if she really cares, could she really be expected to change her behavior artificially, only so that I can see that she cares, when she feels that I should be seeing it anyway? I think I would do that - I would try to make her feel that I care. Because I care about her, I also care that she feels that I care, as it were. And I don't see her caring that I don't feel it. So I assume there is a problem, but again, what if there isn't - what should I do then? Maybe someone would say that I expect too much from her, to kind of be all over me all the time and adore me like a king. Yet I can't shake the feeling the something is off, and I don't want to always keep it in me. But if I constantly share it with her, and she feels she can't do anything, what then? 

[Batya33]

Did she do a 180 or has she always had such a tacky/materialistic attitude about money and men? And if you knew that tendency of hers or her views why did you marry her? Why can't she or why didn't she make her own $ if she so badly wants to be rich?

[redswim30]

7 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

once she literally said "I envy pretty girls, because they can find rich men", which I interpreted as "you are of no value to me as a person, I only need your money", and that hurt me.

m surprised too that she didn't expect that from the beginning, I have never shown intention to be " Also, I accidentally read a chat with her friend where she said essentially that girls should choose men based on money, and not handsomeness, as she did, which again made me feel awful, but I never told her that". 

Also, in that chat she said she would try to subtly and imperceptibly raise our daughter to choose men this way, based on money. That made me even angrier - she seems to want to influence my daughter's mindset behind my back, that's absurd.

That chat by the way is another dilemma - should I tell her about it? It is a burden to carry and I'd like to hear how she would explain it, but I'm afraid of her reaction.  

 she never has the initiative to kiss or touch me, and almost always reacts to my initiative in a way I perceive as cold. She never says anything about sex. So there have been many times when I was trying to "read the signs" and thought that she might be into it, only to discover there's nothing. 

 

I guess I still believe what we had can be recovered. 

Another thing is that I feel guilty - she makes me feel like I am a failure and don't deserve any better. That I am really not giving her what most men can give her, and that other women will expect the same from me.  

. And, I will feel deep guilt for having destroyed my daughter's family. It will be my fault, because, despite all those signs of indifference and lack of appreciation, my wife actually doesn't want a divorce - she kind of seems to like this routine roommate-style existence. I feel I will lose much more than I would gain. 

, I keep experiencing her behavior as an indication that she doesn't care. Who knows, maybe I am imagining it, maybe it's a normal behavior, these things are not objective. But in that case the situation seems unresolvable - I will always feel bad. And, if she really cares, could she really be expected to change her behavior artificially, only so that I can see that she cares, when she feels that I should be seeing it anyway? IMaybe someone would say that I expect too much from her, to kind of be all over me all the time and adore me like a king. Yet I can't shake the feeling the something is off, and I don't want to always keep it in me. But if I constantly share it with her, and she feels she can't do anything, what then? 

Let me try and break this down for you. 

You can't even be HONEST with each other.  You are hurt by her feelings and opinions (as you should be) because she IS saying she values your money more than you.  

Trying to mold your daughter behind your back?  That's terrible.  You need to consider if this attitude IS really best for your daughter.   There's more to life (and relationships) than money.  I know women that have divorced wealthy (and abusive) men.  Is your wife going to educate your daughter that abuse for money is worth exchange?  Honestly, you should be WAY more concerned about the potential damage this could do to your daughter to have her mother teach her to value wealth above all other qualities in potential partners.  If I were you, I would absolutely bring this up. You have to put your own fears and your wife's comfort aside and prioritize the safety of your young and impressionable daughter.  It can be INCREDIBLY dangerous to tell a MINOR YOUNG WOMAN to seek out wealthy men.  This could become a SAFETY issue if your wife is not careful.  There are a lot of bad men out there with money that proposition young women all. the. time. (and sadly I don't mean 18 year old women)   I had it happen to me a LOT when I was a teen and pre-teen, and I wasn't even raised with the mentality of "seek out wealth". 

Your wife doesn't want intimacy with you of ANY kind- physical or emotional.  She wants your money.  WHY aren't your picking up on that when you are seeing it over and over in black and white?  Perhaps she didn't used to be this way?  Who cares, it's clearly who she has become.  People DO change over time, why do you think so many people get divorced?  Someone changed in a way that MADE them incompatible.   

If 'most men can give her exactly what she wants"  then LET THEM.  If she thinks she can easily find a wealthy man to put up with her nonsense and will just be her sugar daddy while she treats him like garbage.  IMO, you should let her go so she can LIVE that dream.   I think she's in for a rude awakening.  LOL, the classic "MOST people are better than you" argument and the " there's nothing wrong with me" arguments your wife are making are both classic and hilarious.  And they are both CLASSIC tactics of emotional manipulators (and it's working, she's got you thinking you're the "bad guy" in this!) and people who don't value you. 

My husband's ex did both.  "Any man would treat me better than you"- oh shocker, no one wants her and she's alone many many years later.   And "I am the best and every problem is YOUR fault"- then why isn't she with Prince Charming now?  "No one else would ever want you!"  Well, I did and we are incredibly happy.   She thought she could treat him like garbage and he would never leave her.  Well, he did.  She got the shock of her life, and quickly discovered soon after divorcing that he was a much better man than she ever gave him credit for, that men in general ARENT okay with being treated like garbage all the time, that she WAS the problem, and that other people DID value him for who he was. 

You think it's too much to ask for your wife to be KIND to you?  What's the point of being married if NOT to be nice to each other?  If she already hates you and treats you like trash, why be married to you- oh right- your money. 

Your wife not wanting a divorce doesn't make her a good wife or mother, so let's get that straight.  Are men that hit their wives "good husbands" because they don't want to get divorced?  Are men that hit their children "good fathers" because they want to stay as a family unit?  Extreme example, I'll grant you but you see my point- there are others ways to destroy a family than by leaving.  Sometimes someone leaving is actually the HEALTHIEST option for the family.   I respect people more that LEAVE a toxic situation rather than contribute to it or allow abuse or destructiveness in the name of "looking better to others". 

IMVHO, you sound like a really smart guy.  But you are still in denial about your wife's true feeling towards you.  If you don't bring it up to your wife, you can still pretend that that's not who she really is (or has become).  I understand cause I did that in my first marriage.  " If I don't address it, it's not real."  This may not even be a conscious thought for you.  But it's a game a lot of us play with ourselves when we KNOW our marriage isn't healthy or working, but we don't want to admit or accept it.  

If you think this woman is really worth all this- stay married.  You can expect more years of disrespect, talking trash behind your back, hiding life lessons she is giving your daughter, using you for your money, generally treating you poorly and setting bad examples for your daughter.    Good luck with all that. 

[tenochtitlan]

22 hours ago, Batya33 said:

has she always had such a tacky/materialistic attitude about money and men? And if you knew that tendency of hers or her views why did you marry her? Why can't she or why didn't she make her own $ if she so badly wants to be rich?

I noticed the materialistic tendency from the start, but it wasn't that pronounced, and it was just one small flaw - I guess I didn't give it that much weight in the context of the whole personality. Later I can't say it any other way, I just loved her too much to let her go, and so in some cases that is a downside, as I said I tend to do what she expects, even when I disagree, even though I do spend quite a bit of time trying to change her mind. 

She doesn't simply want to be rich, the mindset requires that the man provides the wealth. I feel it's kind of like a sign of value for the woman in her mind - if you are valuable as a woman, the men showers you with money. So when this is not the case she feels less valuable compared to other women, who share with her what great expensive gifts they constantly receive from their men. And it doesn't help that she has exactly that kind of friends, which create in her mind a false statistic of the average woman. I've tried to explain this to her, but I felt she perceived it as a an abstract know-it-all useless stuff that doesn't refer to real life. 

But I still don't understand why this materialism that has always been there, manifested in such an attitude towards me now, and not earlier. Yes, there have been cases when she has told me about what expensive gifts she has heard are made in other couples, and told that with a bit of regret, indicating that our couple and me in particular are somehow deficient to not be like that, but nothing more than that. While now it's quite pronounced at times. 

One hypothesis is that this is the first time my career started to require more travel, and this coincided with having a child. And so now she feels that I am prioritizing my work in front of her and the child, and that makes her feel less valued and intensifies the materialistic mindset. Also this problem with her being very unsatisfied with her job - she has said indirectly several times that she feels trapped and unable to quit her job, because my financial condition doesn't provide us with enough certainty to take that change. And here this assumption of hers about what's normal for other women and couples in terms of money plays a big role - any problem that would be solved by more money is indirectly a personal failure of mine, because men are supposed to have more money. 

[tenochtitlan]

19 hours ago, redswim30 said:

we KNOW our marriage isn't healthy or working, but we don't want to admit or accept it.

I am quite aware that it's not working, that's why I am looking for solutions. I am just not convinced yet that no solutions other than divorce are possible. But you are right that my requirement for sufficient indications that divorce is the only solution is too high and everything you said in general does make a lot of sense. 

But all of this manipulation on her part is working partly because of my own character - I am prone to questioning myself and never being certain that I'm seeing things as they are. I am too afraid of the possibility of going through with this divorce and later discovering that I was wrong, there was something that I was missing, that I misunderstood the situation. That would kill me inside. However, I understand that that's an unavoidable risk and most of the time you can't wait for absolute certainty. 

Obviously at this point I am confused, and that's one reason I am looking for other people's perspective. 

There are many subtleties and nuances that don't find their way in the short descriptions I give here, and so I can't be sure that you have the full information to form an accurate idea of what's happening. For example, she does treat me badly often and in my opinion more often than most women who love their men, but she is not doing it all the time, there are many periods in which our communication is wonderful, even after I discovered that chat. Also, there are many instances I see she is trying to conform to my expectations in small ways, like allowing me to be absent with less resistance and frowning. And even though I think she doesn't understand how important it is for her to truly try to behave right with me, regardless of how she feels, I do believe that she is unusually challenged by her hormones - you can see the irrational spark in her behavior, that she isn't herself at times. She had a period of being overweight as a teenager, lost the weight by extreme dieting, and around that time messed up her hormones, which she suffers from to this day. And this is contributing to other cases of mistreatment or meanness as well because it makes her mentally weak, so she is too much in distress from normal life problems like having a bad job, and is unable to think straight about what is who's fault and who should be expected to do what, and so on. It also doesn't help that she has this natural tendency to find someone to blame when she is suffering - she almost never thinks about how she might have contributed to her own suffering, it's always someone else's malice, not even negligence or misstep, and the person who's around most frequently is me, so I get to be the victim. 

It's mixed, because when she's bad, it's awful, but when she's herself, it's wonderful in so many ways. I can't make clear sense of that yet. 

But I take your point that I should bring up the chat question. I am only wondering how exactly, that's under the umbrella of the whole framing of my topic - how to fix communication - how to find the right time to talk to her and make it more likely for her to react reasonably. One time we had a civil conversation about our issues when we had had some drinks, and the conversation arose naturally out of nowhere, it wasn't like "can we talk about something mega serious?", right. But also unusual was that we were alone, without our daughter, which is very rare. Many people tell me to find someone to look after her in order for us to talk, but that's not so easy, because the only person available - her mother, is already looking after her a lot of the time, and complaining about it, and she has no idea that we have problems, and I don't think she's the person to understand this. 

And, on the general divorce point, what about the child? Our family situation is most of the time not toxic, and the child doesn't see our distress, especially considering that it's mostly my own distress. I will be the one to have broken her otherwise quite functional and loving family. I don't want to play that part. 

[Batya33]

I wasn't a big fan of sitters when my child was young but what about a sitter? Or even a mother's helper where you can be alone and talk in another room or outside the house but nearby and get some alone time (I mean not full on romantic time in that instance).  Also why not pay your mother or offer her some kind of "bribe?"

[Wiseman2]

36 minutes ago, tenochtitlan said:

 .  I see she is trying to conform to my expectations in small ways. she doesn't understand how important it is for her to truly try to behave right with me, regardless of how she feels

Unfortunately the more you describe the situation the more this seems like a power struggle rather than a communication issue.

You seem to wish you could change her and have her speak, act, think and behave in ways that are better suited for you.

It's doubtful that talking more is going to address that, particularly with the level of contempt and resentment already present.

[jul-els]

It sounds like from your perspective, she has checked out of the relationship. You can’t force her to be interested if she isn’t. I know you don’t want a divorce, but in all honesty, if I felt the way you do, I would start working on my exit plan. I know that’s not what you want to hear, but that’s what I would do. You can’t make someone engage with you who simply doesn’t want to.

[redswim30]

2 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

I am quite aware that it's not working, that's why I am looking for solutions. I am just not convinced yet that no solutions other than divorce are possible. But you are right that my requirement for sufficient indications that divorce is the only solution is too high and everything you said in general does make a lot of sense. 

But all of this manipulation on her part is working partly because of my own character - I am

It's mixed, because when she's bad, it's awful, but when she's herself, it's wonderful in so many ways. I can't make clear sense of that yet. 

But I take your point that I should bring up the chat question. I am only wondering how exactly, that's under the umbrella of the whole framing of my topic - how to fix communication - how to find the right time to talk to her and make it more likely for her to react reasonably. what about the child? Our family situation is most of the time not toxic, and the child doesn't see our distress, especially considering that it's mostly my own distress. I will be the one to have broken her otherwise quite functional and loving family. I don't want to play that part. 

I'm not sure what you're looking for as advice at this point.  Nothing is going to change with your wife until/unless you address it.  You can't control her or her reactions.    There's nothing you can say or do in such a perfect way that she is going to have a positive attitude about changing herself, trying to make her care about this or make her react "reasonable".  You keep thinking there's something you can do to innately change who she is.  It's a losing battle. (Ask anyone on here who has been divorced.  You can't make someone change into who you need them to be.) Look, if your wife seemed even slightly invested in you or interested in change, I'd have different advise for you.  But from everything you've said- her solutions to unhappiness are complaining, being mean and hypercritical to you, and just doing things like parenting behind your back. She has NO interest and just shuts down.  In your specific case- since you can't control her, then your two options are live with things exactly as they are and stop complaining or thinking she will ever change or leave.  And if you don't want to leave.  Stop complaining.  Stay married.  Accept that this is how things are and everything that comes with that. 

I don't understand why you keep making excuses for her behavior.  I hope you realize that tons and tons of women had bad childhood issues, hormones, and other problems that don't result in them being manipulative and not very nice to their husband.  Don't kid yourself.  It's a CHOICE she is making. 

It seems like you are hell bent on staying married.  Then Stay Married.  But don't expect your wife to ever change.  If anything, it's going to get worse.  If you want to stay married- accept that this is who she is and it's not going to change.  Accept the occasional times she's in a decent mood and deal with her being terrible to you most of the time, knowing that's the exchange you are making to stay in a relationship with her.  

Your family is already broken, just not physically apart. Your wife is doing things without you, parenting behind your back, talking you down behind your back and has nothing but contempt for you, wanting to influence your daughter in some pretty awful ways (Also, kids pick up WAY more than adults give them credit for).  Kids learn by what you show them.  I sincerely hope your daughter doesn't learn some lessons from this that will cause her unhappiness.  Ask anyone who has been in a long marriage- if you have issues like Stonewalling, Contempt, Criticism and Defensiveness, these don't get better over time.  (Unless BOTH parties are willing to change, but your wife isn't) 

Best of luck to you with your mean wife.   Hope she's worth it. 

[tenochtitlan]

23 hours ago, jul-els said:

You can’t make someone engage with you who simply doesn’t want to.

Of course, but shouldn't it be possible nevertheless to have an open conversation about this? The situation will gain much in clarity, if she simply tells me that she is not interested in this relationship anymore and would like us to consider changes, one of which could be divorce. I won't like that, but at present I think I like the ambiguity and confusion much less. As I've said, if I tell her, she will deny there being any problem on her side.

One time she directly told me that, if she didn't want to be with me, she would have left me, but I told her I don't believe that fully, because I know how hard it can be to make this step, that many people live lives of silent discontent with their relationship, because they feel psychologically and practically dependent on it and the presence of the other person, and because I don't know her as particularly courageous, she has been passive in other cases with other people, where she wasn't happy, but decided to keep it to herself. So I see some form of denial - on some level she isn't interested in the relationship, but also she realizes how stressful it would be for her to get out of it, so she suppresses the disinterest; so when I bring it up, she reacts defensively to protect this position of safety of hers, and to be allowed to keep living in this kind of comfortable, even though less alive way. 

So in that sense I still think this is a problem of communication, and a contact with her has to be possible - I think I would have some peace in either of two scenarios - one, she tells me openly that she has lost interest in the relationship, sorry, but it's what it is; or two, she starts showing me that she cares. 

23 hours ago, redswim30 said:

You keep thinking there's something you can do to innately change who she is.  It's a losing battle.

Well, that's a form of advice that's useful - giving me some clarity about things I may have overlooked. I do see now that changing her is much less likely that I thought. And why did think otherwise - because I am very open to change. I have changed many times in many ways for her and for other people, and also for my own reasons, and I know that you can change if you want to. So I have this idealistic notion that open conversation could bring her mind to the possibility and importance of change. It's not an imposed change in a way - if I am made to understand that some behavior of mine is off, I would be very interested in doing whatever I can to change it. And notice that this is something that bothers me most in her - not that she fails to change, but that she fails to show that she's interested in changing. If she did that I would be ok with her failure to change, at least to some extent. After all, people are in a sense victims of themselves, most people really can't help it being who their physiology dictates them to be, so I can kind of forgive that, but I have to see the "higher brain" realization that change is justified.

 

23 hours ago, redswim30 said:

Don't kid yourself.  It's a CHOICE she is making.

Yes, I could see that that is possible. In a way in opposition to what I said above about people being victims of themselves, she really should be able to influence somewhat how exactly her hormones manifest in the world and with other people. I have always suspected that what she says when she's "not herself" actually reflects some attitude or belief that she is able to control and hide when she is herself, and that's one reason why I could never believe her assurance that she doesn't think what she has said. And I do realize that I tend to make excuses for her behavior. You could say that I am in this neutral, unresolved space between the belief that people can control their behavior, and the opposite belief that they cannot. 

23 hours ago, redswim30 said:

Unless BOTH parties are willing to change, but your wife isn't) 

How can you be sure that there is nothing I could say to her that could break the stone wall and plant a seed of understanding of the importance of change and conversation? I can't shake the belief that this should be possible. 

[Wiseman2]

9 minutes ago, tenochtitlan said:

How can you be sure that there is nothing I could say to her that could break the stone wall and plant a seed of understanding of the importance of change and conversation?

When talking doesn't fix things talking more and more isn't going to fix things either.

You two have power struggles in several areas.

Money. You believe she's materialistic and you also don't want a divorce because it's too expensive.

Childcare and household responsibilities. You're definitely in a power struggle stand off with these. You both feel the other should be doing much more so you're camped in your corners.

Intimacy. With  resentment and contempt and power struggle to this extreme, it's hard to imagine there's any warm cuddly feelings left.

So unfortunately you're trying to solve logistical problems with talking and more talking, almost to avoid compromising or making a decision or talking effective actions.

So in effect, nothing is getting done because talking at her to change while harboring such extreme contempt that you would love to divorce except that you think it's too expensive is not really going to be resolved with more theoretical discussions.

 

[Andrina]

On 6/18/2023 at 3:16 AM, tenochtitlan said:

I constantly touch and kiss her, while she almost never, and in many days, literally never does,

 

On 6/17/2023 at 5:58 AM, tenochtitlan said:

can't afford therapy. 

 

Why do you have zero days off? Do you two live beyond your means? You say you can't afford therapy. Since you feel the need to save the marriage, think about ways you could cut costs, if any, to afford therapy either for yourself or couples counseling. Do you pay for cable? You could cut that out and pay a lower cost for Internet only, buy an antenna. It's not like you two have a lot of time to watch t.v. anyway. You could get takeout or have dinners out less often, if that is the case. 

And then when money is gained for therapy, you could let your wife know the seriousness of the matter and say: I don't see myself living like this the rest of my life. I'd like to attend couples counseling with you because I love you and want this to work out. And then if she refuses and thinks you're bluffing, you can attend some therapy sessions yourself, and let her know you're doing this. Sometimes that's enough to shake a partner up that there is a serious watershed moment happening.

You can also change your own behavior, alerting your partner that if she won't evolve with you, that you're seeking fulfillment in other ways. To have her see you in a different light, and have you enjoying life without her, how about starting a new hobby where you're out of the house once a week. Take your daughter somewhere fun without Mom once a week, like a father-daughter breakfast, to the park, etc. 

Since she's not responsive to your constant touches and kisses, stop that behavior. One-sided effort shouldn't be rewarded. Start having guy time with a friend or two. Let her know what life life will be like without your presence and attention. As the saying goes, the best way to change someone else's behavior is to change your own. How you've behaved in the past hasn't resulted in any positive changes, so try reacting to what she says differently, and behave differently.

If you're living beyond your means, perhaps think about moving and downsizing to relieve your financial stress. I don't know your circumstances, and if this is feasible. Just an idea.

[tenochtitlan]

18 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

harboring such extreme contempt that you would love to divorce except that you think it's too expensive

I did give a more nuanced description of my attitude towards her and divorce, and this is a misleading oversimplification. Yes, if divorce was practically easy, I would probably be more tempted, but it is also true that I love her and would prefer for us to find a solution. Certainly there is no "extreme contempt". 

 

18 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

When talking doesn't fix things talking more and more isn't going to fix things either.

Professional military or hostage negotiators would strongly disagree with this, and thanks to them not thinking in this way many disasters have been prevented or minimized. 

 

18 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

You're definitely in a power struggle stand off with these. You both feel the other should be doing much more so you're camped in your corners.

That's kind of accurate. But why shouldn't that be improvable with talking? One problem for me is that I'm not entirely clear what she wants, and I am only guessing that she treats me the way she does, because I'm not giving her what she wants - it could be something entirely different. Again - it would all be much easier, if we talked about it openly, even if there are irreconcilable differences. For me it is much more troubling that we are not open with each other, than that we want different things and are not satisfied with what the other is doing. I mean, how can I be expected to "take effective actions", if I don't know exactly what actions are expected? This is my problem.

 

17 hours ago, Andrina said:

cut costs, if any, to afford therapy

That is possible, but she would find it absurd. This mindset of hers I keep failing to completely understand, but I think it might be possible to intuit from what I've described so far that she finds talking about ourselves as a couple and our issues an extreme nuisance, and would find it criminal to give up something she likes to have more of that expedience. We do have some time to watch tv - after dinner we have to do mostly household stuff and take care of the child, so I can't work - even though in the past before we had a child I did work after dinner too - and the tv is on the living room the whole time. I have never been very attached to tv, although I can appreciate the social experiment side of some reality shows, but she is quite attached and wouldn't want to give it up.

17 hours ago, Andrina said:

Since she's not responsive to your constant touches and kisses, stop that behavior. One-sided effort shouldn't be rewarded. Start having guy time with a friend or two. Let her know what life life will be like without your presence and attention. As the saying goes, the best way to change someone else's behavior is to change your own. How you've behaved in the past hasn't resulted in any positive changes, so try reacting to what she says differently, and behave differently.

This is interesting and I will consider it. I have thought about it to some extent. We have had several cases in which we talked about how distant and cold she is to my kisses, and she was saying she doesn't know why and she will try to change it, and she does for a while, after which she goes back to coldness again. And one time, the day after such a conversation, I stop any kissing and touching, but since it was obvious that my mood was bad, and we had talked about it so the topic was in her mind, she guessed what I was doing and we kind of resolved it. But I've suspected that if I do this now, without bringing up the question, and without showing visible bad mood, she wouldn't notice at all. Maybe it has to be like a week of this in order for her to notice - that's how much this stuff is not on her mind at all, not only sex, but even physical contact - and of course the main explanation is usually hormones. So, if she doesn't need it, I'm not sure taking it away would cause her to ask for it. Just like what I described in an earlier post - she told me if I don't push her to have sex, she would completely forget about it, so I'm kind of given a green light to push. 

Also, it would be painful for me. Maybe this is a problem in me too, I don't know, but I've been having such a hard time constantly resisting my physical attraction to her. I'm not crazy, I think, because I don't think about sex during the day, almost at all, but when I'm around her every moment is a pain. Especially when she does stuff to make herself prettier, my brain chemistry explodes. Despite of the cold response, I do get something out of physical contact, and if I stop that, I don't know, it's unbearable. As I told her once, it's like you have on the table in front of you the most delicious cake you can imagine, but you know you can't touch it. In that sense it would be much easier if we just didn't see each other. I can live without candy if it's not in my face all the time. 

You are right - what I've done before didn't work and I have to change it. I just think that kissing is not one of the things I've done with the intention of changing her - it's just what I want to do. As I said above, I'm not sure taking it away would accomplish anything. Or it would for a short while, as has happened before - she would start being more active, but once things normalized, she would forget again. 

[Wiseman2]

4 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

The day after such a conversation, I stop any kissing and touching, but since it was obvious that my mood was bad, and we had talked about it so the topic was in her mind, she guessed what I was doing and we kind of resolved it. But I've suspected that if I do this now, without bringing up the question, and without showing visible bad mood, she wouldn't notice at all. 

Do you feel like the only way to get her attention is through a "visibly bad mood"?  What indications and signals do you utilize to indicate your bad mood so make her notice you want attention?  It's true that talking is only one form of communication. It seems being in a bad mood is the way you let her know she should be more affectionate toward you? 

[tenochtitlan]

19 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Do you feel like the only way to get her attention is through a "visibly bad mood"

Being in a bad mood attracts her attention to the fact that maybe I'm not happy with something in our interaction, and it kind of stimulates her to look for ways to make things better. It's kind of like political protest - if the citizens don't loudly announce their disapproval of something the government is doing, the government might not be motivated to change it, even if they know it's not right. Similarly, I've noticed that often times people may do something they know hurts you in some way, but since it benefits them, they won't be motivated to change it, until they see your suffering in their face. 

In this case I guess she doesn't feel the need for physical contact, and knows that I want it, but if she sees that "I'm fine the way things are", she wouldn't be motivated to force herself to do something she doesn't find natural at present, even if she understands that it should be a natural part of a healthy relationship. Also notice that this bad mood has not been an act of manipulation - I did not intentionally show a bad mood to motivate her, I actually was in a mood that was so bad that it showed. There are many other times, in fact most of the time, when I am still very unhappy about her lack of interest in any physical contact, but am externally in a normal mood. After all I don't feel right to be begging her to pay attention to me or something like that, in a way it would defeat the purpose. 

This life is fine in many ways, but I feel I can't find true peace, as long as I know that she's not interested in me the way I'd want her to be. And I imagine it would be easier if she simply told me what is the reason. But I guess it's not that simple, knowing how much I had to think to gain the clarity about all this that I have now, about what exactly I want and why exactly I am not satisfied, and knowing how much less prone to thinking she is compared to me, it is very likely that she would find it difficult to tell me what the problem is, even if she was willing to. And that is a side of the problem I don't know how to deal with - maybe the only option is to keep guessing and trying to move closer to her expectations of me, but that doesn't feel quite right. I imagine for example that I might get rich, and she will start being warmer with me, and I will feel slightly put off by this, because it will mean she likes me for my money, not for who I am. 

By the way I feel you, as opposed to some of the others, are convinced that this situation is my fault. Do you then have a clear idea about what exactly I should do to make it right, or in other words, what would you do in my situation?

[redswim30]

On 6/24/2023 at 7:07 AM, tenochtitlan said:

 

How can you be sure that there is nothing I could say to her that could break the stone wall and plant a seed of understanding of the importance of change and conversation? I can't shake the belief that this should be possible. 

Let me try this another way. 

You have a beautiful vase.   It cracks.   It's still beautiful, but it can't really hold water anymore.  

You don't like that you can't put flowers in it, but you don't want to throw it away and the vase can't repair itself.  You don't want to repair it in known ways that you can, because you are worried about marring its beauty, even though it doesn't provide what you wanted it for in the first place. 

The crack keeps getting worse and worse and it's able to hold less and less water.  Everyone tells you to either get rid of it or repair it, but you just want to keep it, desperately hoping that it will repair itself.  All the while knowing that over time, it will just get worse if you do nothing.  

Finally, you decide to use some basic glue.  It doesn't work.  You try again, it doesn't work.   You keep trying to do the same thing expecting that THIS time it will fix it, since glue OUGHT to fix a vase. 

People are telling you that they understand you don't want to get rid of it, but what's the point of having a vase that can't hold water.   People are telling you the more expensive ways to repair it if you want to keep it, but you stubbornly keep using that same basic glue that you already know doesn't work. 

But you keep hoping that it will if you try a bunch of times that glue MAY possibly work or the vase will somehow miraculously repair itself, because you feel these things SHOULD work. 

[boltnrun]

9 minutes ago, redswim30 said:

Let me try this another way. 

You have a beautiful vase.   It cracks.   It's still beautiful, but it can't really hold water anymore.  

You don't like that you can't put flowers in it, but you don't want to throw it away and the vase can't repair itself.  You don't want to repair it in known ways that you can, because you are worried about marring its beauty, even though it doesn't provide what you wanted it for in the first place. 

The crack keeps getting worse and worse and it's able to hold less and less water.  Everyone tells you to either get rid of it or repair it, but you just want to keep it, desperately hoping that it will repair itself.  All the while knowing that over time, it will just get worse if you do nothing.  

Finally, you decide to use some basic glue.  It doesn't work.  You try again, it doesn't work.   You keep trying to do the same thing expecting that THIS time it will fix it, since glue OUGHT to fix a vase. 

People are telling you that they understand you don't want to get rid of it, but what's the point of having a vase that can't hold water.   People are telling you the more expensive ways to repair it if you want to keep it, but you stubbornly keep using that same basic glue that you already know doesn't work. 

But you keep hoping that it will if you try a bunch of times that glue MAY possibly work or the vase will somehow miraculously repair itself, because you feel these things SHOULD work. 

Also presuming the vase cares if it works, or cares about holding water as much as you do, when the vase really just wants to look pretty and have fun going out dancing. 

[tenochtitlan]

14 hours ago, redswim30 said:

you stubbornly keep using that same basic glue that you already know doesn't work.

Ok, so what's the better glue in this case? Assuming you don't want to get rid of the vase. 

But just to check your view, would you agree to what I said earlier to Wiseman2? He said that if talking hasn't worked so far, more talking is not going to work. I said professional negotiators would disagree. You never know when talking is going to work and you can't be sure that you are not giving up just before it finally does work. Talking is not equal to applying the glue - it's a process of searching for the right glue. As long as you keep searching by navigating the conversation, it is still possible to find the glue, and you never know how long it would take. Once you do find it, it suddenly clicks. 

Would you agree with that? 

In terms of the situation at hand, even though generally we struggle with conversation, is it true that many times we have reached clarity and peace about certain issues or sub-issues after several conversations, where in the previous ones it had seemed impossible. Also, outside of this situation, I have had several times the experience of having many discussions with seemingly impossible people, until finally and unexpectedly we reach some understanding. So I have a bias to not give up on people's ability to pay attention to reason, however long they have resisted it.

14 hours ago, boltnrun said:

presuming the vase cares

There seem to be two possibilities: 

1.The vase cares, but for some reason, it doesn't show. Isn't it in that case worth trying to "make contact" with the vase? 

2.The vase doesn't care. Isn't it still possible in that case to get the vase to openly admit this? And, if she does, wouldn't that be somehow useful?

Thanks so far to all of you. You may feel I'm a bit of a lost cause, but I am paying attention to what you say and it does help to gradually get clarity about this.

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, tenochtitlan said:

t if talking hasn't worked so far, more talking is not going to work. I said professional negotiators would disagree. You never know when talking is going to work 

From your description, it seems like it hasn't worked because she still has brief answers and you still aren't getting the physical contact you want spontaneously or otherwise.

Theories are fine, but it's time to look at the actual results. Which are, it's getting worse, not better. Glue and vases and so on are theories. However sadly you're no closer to the affection you want.

So rather than going down the same blind alley over and over, try to open your mind to different approaches other than extensive discussions or displays of bad moods which in addition to not being effective, seems to be making matters worse.