feminism not a variable? check splitting

[Big Stan]

1 minute ago, boltnrun said:

Unfortunately, for him it was all about his ego.  He felt women are weak and helpless and need men in their lives or they would not be able to survive.  That's why he told me I was "too masculine" and "like a man" because I didn't need him to survive.  Instead of thinking it was nice that I could install my own car battery he found it unattractive.  He also actually said he liked women for sex and household chores but other than that he preferred to hang out with his buddies. He exclusively complimented me on my body and my cooking skills but never for intelligence or self-sufficiency.  One time he brought his dirty laundry over and expected me to do it for him.  I'll never forget, he said "most girls want to do my laundry for me".  And I said "good for them, maybe you can take it to one of those 'girls' then."

Trust me, I unfortunately got to know this guy very well and he was the worst of toxic "masculinity".  

Anyway, this topic isn't about me or the doofus I used to date.  I'm happy to split the bill if I'm out with a man.  Same for going out with friends.  I only allow myself to be treated if it's Mother's Day or my birthday.  But I'm not in my early 30s, obviously 😆

Oh wow yeah he was just a jerk off then.  I can't stand dudes like that, if you have to put women down to feel like a big man it just tells everyone else that you're too insecure to compete against women.  I welcome anyone to challenge me as a person in all aspects.  Life would be so boring with a helpless woman instead of a partner who I can really trust to have my back.  Why would you want to marry someone who you treated like a child because you didn't respect them?  Seems dumb to me. 

[sff123]

9 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

Totally okay with the man paying in this situation.  I've had women do that where they make it clear that they do not want to pay for that place.  That IS a woman acknowledging that they expect to pay for themselves meaning she isn't interested in your money.  I like to treat even friends, I consider myself generous with my money and my things but I don't like the PRESUMPTION that I would pay like it's my obligation or role or something. 

Yeah same. if I really wanted to go there, I might be like "don't worry, I can pay for it and next time you can take me where you like to go, unless you want to go there now?

[Big Stan]

Just now, sff123 said:

Yeah same. if I really wanted to go there, I might be like don't worry "I can pay for it and next time you can take me where you like to go, unless you want to go there now?

That's a smooth way to do it too.  

[boltnrun]

Just now, Big Stan said:

Oh wow yeah he was just a jerk off then.  I can't stand dudes like that, if you have to put women down to feel like a big man it just tells everyone else that you're too insecure to compete against women.  I welcome anyone to challenge me as a person in all aspects.  Life would be so boring with a helpless woman instead of a partner who I can really trust to have my back.  Why would you want to marry someone who you treated like a child because you didn't respect them?  Seems dumb to me. 

I don't get it either, but that was his jam.  A guy I worked with told me this guy apparently needed a helpless woman because that's what turned him on and apparently I wasn't it for him.  That's fine.  There's a lid for every pot, as they say.

I would like a guy who would be happy to let me treat him to dinner and not get all bent out of shape about it.  

[Big Stan]

8 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

I don't get it either, but that was his jam.  A guy I worked with told me this guy apparently needed a helpless woman because that's what turned him on and apparently I wasn't it for him.  That's fine.  There's a lid for every pot, as they say.

I would like a guy who would be happy to let me treat him to dinner and not get all bent out of shape about it.  

Makes sense.  A guy smart enough to see your value as a partner is going to get farther in life because two people working together always get farther than one person working alone does.  

[itsallgrand]

I don't identify as a feminist specifically because I don't want to be lumped in with a lot of people that spew horse poop and call it feminism. Obviously it's not everyone who identifies as a feminist, but there's enough that it makes me not to be associated with the term.

The double standards are crazy with some people, male and female. Obviously if you expect someone to be the one paying based on their gender that's pretty sexist no matter how you dress it up. The gymnastics some will do to cling on and try to justify it can be downright comical.

End of the day, you are free to reject anyone you think doesn't share your values in a romantic relationship. That's the easy part. The hard part is having them at work, in positions of authority, and the like. 

[Seraphim]

Feminism is an entirely different animal now than what it originated as . 

[Wiseman2]

6 hours ago, sff123 said:

 It's just interesting 2 women who I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) are feminist, would so unreflectively consider it a test of a guy's general character whether he pays for the bill or not 

Why would you assume their political stance from a dating coach/opinion podcast? If 2 YouTubers out of the billions out there think going Dutch on a first date is tacky that's their opinion. Frankly has nothing to do with feminism because it comes across as transactional. 

The who pays thing has been around forever. Perhaps the best way to go about it is to keep the first meet simple. There may be women around looking for free meals and entertainment, but those types of princesses and golddiggers can be avoided that way.

It's really not a political issue. It depends on people's cultural and socioeconomic philosophies and backgrounds. For example whoever invites and chooses, pays. As a sort of etiquette thing.

Also going Dutch does have a friendzone vibe to it.  Sort of a buzz kill to ask for separate checks or haggle over who ordered what and so on. To me it suggests incompatibilities about money styles from the get go, not a political stance.

If a woman is interested, she'll reciprocate whether it's inviting you out or making dinner or whatever. If these 2 YouTubers have their "deal breakers", as far as criteria for a second date, that seems more like dating coach nonsense than politics.  

 

[Kwothe28]

6 hours ago, sff123 said:

However neither of them even mentioned feminism when it came to this issue and they seemed to take granted to the highest degree that this was just something that they were worth and accepting less would be bad. 

Yes, because they dont pick up feminism. They pick up entitlement from feminism.

Feminism is championing a womans cause. Which has gone from asking for equality to something way more twisted in todays times. But those women pick up entitlement. Entitlement that just because they are women they deserve a special treatment. Society learns them that they are 10/10(plot twist, they are not, some of them are barely a 5) no matter how they look and act and that they deserve the best. It gets regurgitated with social media involved. They see their girlfriends getting that special treatment. How some men treat them dinners, take them to nice places etc. And believe they also deserve that kind of treatment. And the irony is that they do get it from some men. So, confirmation bias kicks in. So every other man after that needs to fit that mold. Because "I know my worth, I am worthy of somebody paying 300 dollar dinner while I am on the phone already scheduling next date with somebody else". 

Anyway, its part of the larger societal issue. Nobody is entilted to couple of hundred dollars worth of diinner. Sadly, the society teaches some women that they are. 

[Batya33]

It's not my choice but I think it's fine to be gendered and sexist within a romantic relationship if both people want that.  As opposed to the workplace I mean.  I knew of a couple where the woman whispered her dinner order to her husband at a restaurant so he could then order for her.  She liked it that way as did he. 

I have a friend now who married in her 40s -man in his late 40s -and she only ever wanted to be a traditional housewife (no kids, yes they have dogs!) .  She lets him control her and treat her like garbage - he berates her driving, criticizes her housewife stuff, she defends his shady business practices, she believes in the whole woman obeys man thing.  So in that sense if she feels he should be the main financial provider (she does work -I think she has to as he went bankrupt maybe?) - she's willing to give up control and be treated like the Little Woman/Child. 

The men I dated assumed they would be paying.  That was the default and yes it was gendered.  I on my own offered, I on my own treated/bought gifts, split bills, took turns -but it wasn't expected. I also knew I wasn't looking for the sort of "equality" where the man would do half of all cooking/cleaning/child rearing, I had no desire to work outside the home and outsource childcare when my child was young in order to continue to advance my career.

So I didn't need a man who was a "feminist"who believed (as some do) that if the woman wants to work full time outside the home and have a baby, the man should either be home full time or have the child in daycare/nannies in order to prioritize not just making a living but advancing professional career so the woman can prioritize that sort of advancement. 

That is totally valid -to balance work-life that way - (I'm not referring to where both parents must work in order to keep a stable lifestyle for a family!).   But not what I was looking for.  I definitely torpedoed professional advancement with my 7 year gap - I chose to do that because for me personally and my husband my being at home raising our son was more important during that time. 

And had I stayed full time in my career I likely would have made as much $ if not more than my husband so that wasn't the situation -the situation was that I absolutely wanted to be a SAHM and he absolutely wanted to be the best parent he possibly could be and he no way in heck wanted to be a SAHD.

So in our personal situation -not a workplace situation and not a business situation - it worked for us beautifully.  It still does and I have no regrets -I had the fortune of working at my intense career 15 years before I gave birth so I got to experience career advancement to a point where I am totally satisfied with what I accomplished and I am delighted to have a role in my former career now with a huge paycut and "demotion" so we can have as a family the work-life balance -given his more than full time career.  Again it's personal.  

Also I find- maybe this is anecdotal -that many feminists are pro-choice and are not pro how I feel -I am pro-choice in general and was never pro-choice for myself personally -apparently that means to some feminists that I am not actually pro-choice.  I never had an abortion, never was faced with that choice so it's hypothetical for me and how I feel strongly.

[Seraphim]

Feminism has gone from wanting equality to wanting to obliterate men and other women who don’t agree with the new rabid form of feminism. 
 

In the 70’s and 80’s my mom worked towards lifting women up to being equal partners in the world. She didn’t feel we were better than men but she felt we deserved better financial equality and social equality and worked to give other women that . She taught me I was equal to my male sibling . She encouraged me to join the military as I was equal to my male sibling and could do equal work for equal pay. That I was worthy.

I have taught my son all people are equal but at the same time never be taken advantage of because you are a man. 
 

I will never be a “ new feminist “ they are an angry group of people and they are not building but destroying. 

[Batya33]

I also don't like -whether done by feminists or others - male bashing and treating men like they are primarily lead by their penises in making decisions, etc.  I often have found this when a woman decides "I am woman/hear me roar" (old awesome song lyric) and that means sleeping with a variety of men casually because "I feel like it, I love getting sexual pleasure, and I can use birth control/be tested and I don't buy all this emotional attachment hogwash just because I'm a woman". 

There certainly are women who thrive on this -they have fun, don't get emotionally attached, are comfortable having an abortion/using double birth control, treating an STD because it feels good and they're honest with themselves. I also know of many women who end up male bashing -they regret that they so-called "caught feelings" and are flabbergasted when the man they had sex with for fun and pleasure still wants sex for fun and pleasure -with the woman, with other women and -no thank you -I don't want to date you, I don't want to be in a relationship with you -come back to bed, k, this is so fun. All of a sudden the man is a jerk. 

All of a sudden miss strong and powerful woman has been "used" by this jerk of a man -for sex! I mean all of those "signs" he actually wanted her in his life outside of bed - the pillow talk, talk about his family, vacations  - I mean who cares that he told her he didn't want a relationship he used her -he is just like all the men who use women and from now on I will view all men in this way or at least a man will have to "prove" to me he doesn't "use" women for intercourse.  

That's the issue I see when feminism becomes "I have to try out this casual sex thing - I work hard, I deserve to have fun and thrills and excitement and having an orgasm with a hot guy who I negotiated a contract with all day in a work meeting will be so fun at his hotel room" - then it's ok to male-bash according to some women who espouse "equality" -what's equal about that?

My son is 14.  There's a girl in his class who's really really bossy on school projects and he doesn't like it.  It's annoying -understandably.  I recently met her at a school event.  I told him -I met [name] and her presentation was good and I can see where she's a bit bossy. His face got serious and he said -oh -I think she is a really good person.  I just think she's bossy when it comes to projects but I don't dislike her as a person.  This to me is as it should be.  He didn't gender this -she's not "bossy for a girl" and she's a "good person" without regard to gender.  

[smackie9]

The old standard, he asks me out he pays, vise versa. Seems simple enough, why make a big deal out of it. A man opening doors for me, that's just good manners.

[Kwothe28]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

And had I stayed full time in my career I likely would have made as much $ if not more than my husband so that wasn't the situation -the situation was that I absolutely wanted to be a SAHM and he absolutely wanted to be the best parent he possibly could be and he no way in heck wanted to be a SAHD.

 

Yeah, but according to "nu feminism", you are submissive and your husband is sexist. Because apparently if you are not "GirlBoss" and are there in board room with men, you are doing a feminism a diservice. There was a whole "Trad Wife" thing going on a few months ago. Where some women on social media were proud being SAHM and staying at home with kids, cooking etc. There was an outcry by feminists how its a "sexist trope". Which is kinda funny because I thought the whole point of feminism was for the woman to have a choice what is the best for her. But suddenly it was not OK because woman choice to be a traditional wife isnt popular with them. And if she made that choice that must have mean "the man" made her do it.

[Big Stan]

31 minutes ago, smackie9 said:

The old standard, he asks me out he pays, vise versa. Seems simple enough, why make a big deal out of it. A man opening doors for me, that's just good manners.

That doesn't seem like the answer to me as a man when men are still overwhelmingly expected to ask women out.  Also I don't see how a man opening your door is good manners.  That one I never understood at all.  What are you trying to demonstrate as a man by doing so, and what are you demonstrating as a woman by not opening your own?  

 

[Seraphim]

30 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

Yeah, but according to "nu feminism", you are submissive and your husband is sexist. Because apparently if you are not "GirlBoss" and are there in board room with men, you are doing a feminism a diservice. There was a whole "Trad Wife" thing going on a few months ago. Where some women on social media were proud being SAHM and staying at home with kids, cooking etc. There was an outcry by feminists how its a "sexist trope". Which is kinda funny because I thought the whole point of feminism was for the woman to have a choice what is the best for her. But suddenly it was not OK because woman choice to be a traditional wife isnt popular with them. And if she made that choice that must have mean "the man" made her do it.

Correct , if you as a woman don’t make the choice they would your choice is invalidated or needs to be eradicated. 
 

Angry group of people. 

[Batya33]

45 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

Yeah, but according to "nu feminism", you are submissive and your husband is sexist. Because apparently if you are not "GirlBoss" and are there in board room with men, you are doing a feminism a diservice. There was a whole "Trad Wife" thing going on a few months ago. Where some women on social media were proud being SAHM and staying at home with kids, cooking etc. There was an outcry by feminists how its a "sexist trope". Which is kinda funny because I thought the whole point of feminism was for the woman to have a choice what is the best for her. But suddenly it was not OK because woman choice to be a traditional wife isnt popular with them. And if she made that choice that must have mean "the man" made her do it.

I'm not sure about any of that and I scroll by posts like that on FB etc - I don't want to be tempted to be roped in to comment.  

When I was a "SAHM" I rarely stayed in one place or at home and cooking and cleaning were secondary to my job -raising our son/child care.  We saw this the same.

We chose to live in a small space in a gorgeous and diverse and sometimes gritty urban neighborhood (similar to how I grew up with my mostly SAHM -except much more diverse and much grittier -I'm a tough city chick lol) and I saw as part of my job getting out the door with my son and exploring our city in an unstructured way mostly -parks, playgrounds, the museum and children's theater ten blocks away, the library ten blocks away the huge fields and hills in the huge park down the block where I told him -um don't run too fast and then we brought him home muddy and smiley. 

He was rarely in a car and I loved it that way.  I did do cooking and cleaning but my husband insisted we hire a cleaning service too.  No one made the other do anything. 

We wanted this together and we spoke of it soon after we started dating again.  When we dated in our late 20s in the 1990s we felt exactly the same. 

So as far as "who paid" - like I said I insisted on paying half the rent from my nest egg.  I didn't feel entitled to being paid for, he knew my unpaid contribution was often invaluable or at least valuable lol - it didn't bother me a bit that he paid more in $$$ for our life, and when I had that urge and motivation to return to working outside the home (couple months into our son's kindergarten year).

I gave myself a specific date on which I'd start my job search -December 1 -meaning -after Thanksgiving -and I started that day.  I say this because I don't like the notion that SAHM are "lazy" when it comes to "work" -  I had to get recertified in my industry, prepare my resume, start upping all my calls and emails and networking which in itself was a job while being the SAHM plus finding times to interview. 

My husband had to be supportive -he had to shift his schedule so I could interview and go to networking events.  Was I being a feminist in trying to get back to work? No.  In fact there was no way I was going to make much $ and avoid having to outsource too much child care - I wanted to work to reinvigorate my skills and prepare for the possibility of working full time either in the distant future or heaven forbid if I had to financially -if my husband lost his job, etc.  I never have contributed equally in $ to our life and neither have we ever had that conversation or has it ever been an issue.  

I'm not into categorizations and labeling with rare exception.  I'm happy to use "SAHM" to avoid typing a lot.  I don't know and I don't care if this means we live a sexist life, a feminist life, a mishmash life.  This is our personal lifestyle, and our personal choice - and if he ever felt uncomfortable paying for more or being the more primary financial provider right now I' take his temperature lol - we're a team in that way -we don't agree on everything -even everything financial -but we don't need labels of traditional or feminist to feel good about our choices and I think if we did that would be a concern.

[Batya33]

36 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

That doesn't seem like the answer to me as a man when men are still overwhelmingly expected to ask women out.  Also I don't see how a man opening your door is good manners.  That one I never understood at all.  What are you trying to demonstrate as a man by doing so, and what are you demonstrating as a woman by not opening your own?  

 

I wish I could have asked men out more often -it was no biggie to me.  When I dated -with rare exception -men were flattered by being asked out and enjoyed it and didn't choose those women for a long term relationship (I dated more "traditional" men and I wanted a relationship where I didn't have to make all the decisions/be in control like that/make all the plans -some women loved and thrived on that -not me!).  I asked men out with no issue -including to be my 'boyfriend" once- likely 10 times. 

I regularly suggested first meets which to me weren't dates so I didn't waste time with wanna be chat buddies from dating sites.  If I suggested it - I mean as far as who paid -it was typically coffee -often like at a Starbucks or dessert at a cafe known to be a popular first meet place - I mean often the guy offered but I just got plain coffee or a water or maybe we shared dessert? If it was a meal and a first meet I'd offer every single time.  I didn't offer to treat both just because I suggested a first meet -I only suggested a meal if we worked near each other and lunch hour was the only time we could meet.  

Maybe it's changed -I had so many male friends who would tell me they got asked out by an attractive woman - and how great that was -how "courageous" of her (huh???) and invariably "um I don't know/I'm not that into her".  I wasn't gonna risk that - I let the man do most of the asking and the calling in the beginning.  For their comfort level. I typically didn't offer to pay on a first date especially if I wanted to see him again but I did by the second date and I did if our plan was expensive -like tickets to a concert or play especially if I recommended it.  

Hopefully men looking for an LTR are totally comfortable being asked out.  I remember hearing of only one marriage where she did all of the asking plus the proposal - over 20 years ago -it was so unusual it made the major newspaper.  I did know of many relationships where the woman did the asking out in the beginning and it "lasted"but more like a casual sex arrangement and he never was that into her.  Just my experience. it should change - asking out men was not a big deal to me!

I do think it's essential that women "approach" men and if they want a relationship to be in as many environments as possible where there is no approaching -where men and women are doing a shared activity and conversation is just a normal part of it.

I hold doors for people including men. Yes I find it rude when I am approaching a door and a man doesn't try to hold it for me especially in our busy package room.  During covid though we all avoided close contact like that!

[Big Stan]

2 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

 

Maybe it's changed -I had so many male friends who would tell me they got asked out by an attractive woman - and how great that was -how "courageous" of her (huh???) and invariably "um I don't know/I'm not that into her".  I wasn't gonna risk that - I let the man do most of the asking and the calling in the beginning.  For their comfort level. I typically didn't offer to pay on a first date especially if I wanted to see him again but I did by the second date and I did if our plan was expensive -like tickets to a concert or play especially if I recommended it.  

Hopefully men looking for an LTR are totally comfortable being asked out.  I remember hearing of only one marriage where she did all of the asking plus the proposal - over 20 years ago -it was so unusual it made the major newspaper.  I did know of many relationships where the woman did the asking out in the beginning and it "lasted"but more like a casual sex arrangement and he never was that into her.  Just my experience. it should change - asking out men was not a big deal to me!

I hold doors for people including men. Yes I find it rude when I am approaching a door and a man doesn't try to hold it for me especially in our busy package room.  During covid though we all avoided close contact like that!

The thing is the whole asking someone out and they not being that into you is the reason you didn't want to risk asking men out.  You do know that men are expected to risk this with every person they ask out right?  Of course you didn't want to be rejected, no one likes that.  I know you said you asked a few people out but that's the sort of thing I want to call attention to.  That there are many women who don't ask people out because they don't want to be rejected yet they are perfectly okay with men having to take that exact risk.  

No one likes being rejected, and men feel just as ***ty when they are rejected as you do.  

 

The holding doors open thing, sure I'll hold the door for anyone if I am walking through it and they are behind me.  That is basic politeness.  What I am asking the purpose of is things like going out of your way to open her car door or automatically pull her chair out when sitting down.  Stuff like that, going out of your way to do it isn't very egalitarian and it's no longer about politeness.  I'm not sure what the purpose behind stuff like that is but I don't really agree with it. 

[Batya33]

8 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

The thing is the whole asking someone out and they not being that into you is the reason you didn't want to risk asking men out.  You do know that men are expected to risk this with every person they ask out right?  

I didn't mean that.  The men I knew who initially might be into a woman were turned off by being asked out especially more than once.  First impressions count a lot.  I was totally fine risking the "no" - I was told no and I survived -one no stung -that was when I asked a college classmate I was crushing on to be my boyfriend -at a weekend retreat -he said no and the next day chose a much more attractive classmate to pursue.  That stung.  Didn't stop me from asking other men out.  I was totally willing to risk a man not being into me.  I wasn't willing to risk making a bad first impression when he was into me and then after being asked out was soooo flattered and then turned off. 

The men I knew were not thrilled with the risk of rejection but were much more comfortable being the initial pursuer as far as asking out the woman they were interested in.

I do remember messing things up for myself that way once.  I met a man on a first meet. He was very into me. He asked me at the end of the date "do you want to see [specific movie] next weekend?" Yes I said enthusiastically.  He said he would call me.  By Wednesday he had not so with trepidation -I called him. I shouldn't have. I should have accepted he went from really into me to "meh".

On the phone I reminded him about the plan and he said sure -with little enthusiasm.  We met for the movie and it was obvious he was meh and sort of agreeing to "keep his promise" to meet me.  As exciting as our first meet was as meh as our first date.  He got married a few years after (yes I checked LOL).  I wish I'd never called him - perhaps he would have called me or perhaps he simply changed his mind.  It happens.  I didn't mind the "rejection" but it was quite an awkward afternoon.  The movie was so so LOL despite getting awesome reviews.

That's only one example of many -when I dated -and ancedotally as I've continued to hear -men often get the wind knocked out of their sails- lose interest -if the woman asks him out especially more than once - showing interest is fine and actually really important -asking out is another thing.  And I mean in the beginning when first impressions are key and when attraction levels/interest levels can be quite fragile.  

[Batya33]

10 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

What I am asking the purpose of is things like going out of your way to open her car door or automatically pull her chair out when sitting down.  Stuff like that, going out of your way to do it isn't very egalitarian and it's no longer about politeness.  I'm not sure what the purpose behind stuff like that is but I don't really agree with it. 

Sure that's fine.  You do you.  

[Big Stan]

13 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I didn't mean that.  The men I knew who initially might be into a woman were turned off by being asked out especially more than once.  First impressions count a lot.  I was totally fine risking the "no" - I was told no and I survived -one no stung -that was when I asked a college classmate I was crushing on to be my boyfriend -at a weekend retreat -he said no and the next day chose a much more attractive classmate to pursue.  That stung.  Didn't stop me from asking other men out.  I was totally willing to risk a man not being into me.  I wasn't willing to risk making a bad first impression when he was into me and then after being asked out was soooo flattered and then turned off. 

The men I knew were not thrilled with the risk of rejection but were much more comfortable being the initial pursuer as far as asking out the woman they were interested in.

I do remember messing things up for myself that way once.  I met a man on a first meet. He was very into me. He asked me at the end of the date "do you want to see [specific movie] next weekend?" Yes I said enthusiastically.  He said he would call me.  By Wednesday he had not so with trepidation -I called him. I shouldn't have. I should have accepted he went from really into me to "meh".

On the phone I reminded him about the plan and he said sure -with little enthusiasm.  We met for the movie and it was obvious he was meh and sort of agreeing to "keep his promise" to meet me.  As exciting as our first meet was as meh as our first date.  He got married a few years after (yes I checked LOL).  I wish I'd never called him - perhaps he would have called me or perhaps he simply changed his mind.  It happens.  I didn't mind the "rejection" but it was quite an awkward afternoon.  The movie was so so LOL despite getting awesome reviews.

That's only one example of many -when I dated -and ancedotally as I've continued to hear -men often get the wind knocked out of their sails- lose interest -if the woman asks him out especially more than once - showing interest is fine and actually really important -asking out is another thing.  And I mean in the beginning when first impressions are key and when attraction levels/interest levels can be quite fragile.  

Yeah that’s fair, being pursued can also be intimidating and uncomfortable and I can see some men being turned off by that. It was an adjustment for me as well but after a while you get used to it. 
 

I suppose I forget that many men don’t experience that and as such can feel weird about it if it happens. 

[Batya33]

9 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

Yeah that’s fair, being pursued can also be intimidating and uncomfortable and I can see some men being turned off by that. It was an adjustment for me as well but after a while you get used to it. 
 

I suppose I forget that many men don’t experience that and as such can feel weird about it if it happens. 

Yes I'm glad I clarified. I don't think asking someone out is pursuing but I think if a woman does it it can be seen as more "forward."  I took off my professional career hat when I dated -I didn't act submissive or anything -couldn't if I tried lol - but I also never ever felt the need to prove to a man that I was an ambitious spunky go getter professionally or was professionally successful.  Ironically the first question my traditional husband asked me on our very first lunch date in the 1990s was why I chose the career I did -which back then was his career too. 

He wanted to be in a relationship where his spouse was ambitious and passionate about her career. And he wanted a situation where she likely would want to raise the children full time for longer than maternity leave.  He found both in me although that first time around we dated resulted in being apart for over 7 years.  Took the long way round.  

[catfeeder]

15 hours ago, smackie9 said:

The old standard, he asks me out he pays, vise versa. Seems simple enough, why make a big deal out of it. A man opening doors for me, that's just good manners.

I love this simplicity. There are extreme fringes in any movement and pointing to those as characteristic of the whole movement is inaccurate if not lazy.

I know men who consider themselves feminists, yet I’ve never adopted the word due to a lack of activism, which, to me, means I haven’t earned it.

I feel no need to pretzel myself around semantics when it comes to common courtesy. If I reach a door first, I hold it for others. if I invite someone to join me for anything, I treat them as my guest.

This is not brain surgery, and those who boast that they would not repeat a date with anyone who hasn’t adopted such a minimal baseline of social behavior might actually have a point.

[boltnrun]

9 hours ago, catfeeder said:

There are extreme fringes in any movement and pointing to those as characteristic of the whole movement is inaccurate

I agree.

A former coworker used to call another coworker "Bra Burner" just because she wanted to independently earn her own money and have a career and not rely on her husband to provide for her financially. It was totally inaccurate. However, this same coworker used to give the Nazi salute to a different coworker who had emigrated from Germany, so that tells you the kind of person she was 🙄