feminism not a variable? check splitting

[Seraphim]

While I have worked throughout my son’s life , for the most of it , I don’t feel he benefitted from me being at work. Even though he was with my mom who I was superbly lucky to have look after him and she loves him to death it was me that was his support person. The person who understood his disabilities the best and still does. When I changed my work hours so I was home when he needed me his school performance dramatically improved as well as his behavioural issues. He was constantly being misdiagnosed and medicated with stimulants that he didn’t need. Being military my husband was away from the time my son was 8 until he was 14. I would get calls at least 3 times a week to remove my son from class until he was grade 4. Grade 3 he was physically restrained 10 times without my knowledge or permission. He was brutalized at school by other students including being swarmed and beat on at least twice. He was extensively bullied by other kids and even adults in the school system. I can’t tell you how many times I had to go to schools and at times even threaten them with police action if they didn’t get things under control. 
 

I still kept up ALL the home responsibilities because my husband wasn’t there . I went to work and all childcare was up to me from the time my son was born until the past say 8 years. 
 

My son still needs extensive 1:1 support even at 25. That falls to me 90% of the time because I work at home which I did for the reason this is necessary. 
 

My husband at various times in our marriage has needed extensive support as well due to severe mental health issues and brain injury etc . That meant me the only person working and looking after everyone . Much of the time though he has been able to provide a lot of financial support just very little emotional support or other things due to his own developmental issues which are currently being addressed and the result is spectacular and is a very changed person. Still himself but vastly more aware and out of living in his head, he lives in the moment now . 
 

In short we are born to help others and yes receive help as well. 

[Big Stan]

55 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

It depends on the individual child and the child-parent dynamic and what is meant by good outcomes - keeping a child alive and breathing is good obviously but what is a good outcome varies widely among households, communities, etc.. Also what is meant by good values and good "household" - so many variables- are the kids in daycare/homeschooled, etc.  Values around discipline vary widely and all are defined as "good."  

Depends on what the disabilities, learning differences, other issues are within the individual child, the accessibility to appropriate healthcare (even given financial stability), whether here are siblings and if so their issues, other kids in the home. 

Even if the child is typically developing, again if the parent-child don't connect either because they are just very different and/or the parent in this good household with good values is away a lot for work and the primary caregiver imparts "good values" but simply isn't good at connecting with the child (which doesn't mean it's not a good household -again, individual differences).  Therefore in the good household with good values the kid who is not connecting may go outside the home to find values and goodness.

I don't care at all about statistics because it would depend what the controls were and what the definitions were of all I wrote above - yes for specific outcomes for sure.  A child who is typically developing and read to from babyhood, and exposed to books in a positive way and reading is valued is more likely to be a fan of reading and take to reading in a positive way.  A child who is given nutritious food (or at least access) in a nonsmoking household and is encouraged to move their bodies/play/exercise etc likely will have better health outcomes/lower risks of obesity and other medical disorders.  But this started with "children raised in a household with good values are easier to raise." 

I disagree with that broad statement - it's easier if the child isn't constantly sick as a young child but good parents send their kids to daycare and preschool with nutritious food and many kids are constantly sick and it's not easy to care for a constantly sick child especially if it gets you sick and/or you work.  That's not an easy to raise child during those times. 

It's easier if the child isn't mercilessly teased or bullied for being short/wearing glasses/having a nervous tic/not wearing the right clothes/sneakers etc - but all those things in the outside world can only be controlled to an extent and then it counterbalances.  Yes you can homeschool but that's not easier for many families but much much harder/impractical.  

I have work projects now where if I did a statistical analysis I am positive that if I find a block of undistracted time to work on these particular projects when I am healthy, hydrated, not tired and use my solid work ethic values I've had since I don't know 1976, the outcome will be a better work product for sure.  I know that over many years in my own life and it makes the work easier to do too and more enjoyable and rewarding.  (And this is because these particular projects lend themselves to this sort of work put in =good outcome).  That's not how it works with kid raising IMO.

So if it really doesn’t matter what you do as a parent because you can’t really influence the outcome, how is parenting an important job or a difficult one according to you?  From what I read in this long reply you don’t think that raising a child works in the same way that working does as in if you put in better effort you’re likely to get a better outcome. 
 

If that isn’t true then parenting can’t even be a job let alone an important one. If I have little to no control over the outcome why is the effort I put in important. It’s like doing a rain dance, you really have no control over the weather so why bother. 
 

I personally don’t believe this but it’s a particularly odd stance coming from someone who was extolling the virtues of motherhood and full time parenting earlier in this conversation. 

[Batya33]

14 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

So if it really doesn’t matter what you do as a parent because you can’t really influence the outcome, how is parenting an important job or a difficult one according to you?  From what I read in this long reply you don’t think that raising a child works in the same way that working does as in if you put in better effort you’re likely to get a better outcome. 
 

If that isn’t true then parenting can’t even be a job let alone an important one. If I have little to no control over the outcome why is the effort I put in important. It’s like doing a rain dance, you really have no control over the weather so why bother. 
 

I personally don’t believe this but it’s a particularly odd stance coming from someone who was extolling the virtues of motherhood and full time parenting earlier in this conversation. 

I'm going to keep my response shortish as this is entirely off topic.  I don't agree with your throw the baby out with the bathwater.  I don't do all the hard work I do and my husband doesn't do all the hard work he does to try to get a "good outcome" -I do it because this was always part of my life's work and goals -to be the best parent possible and act in the best interests of my child at all time - that is my goal, that is what I work towards every day - not to get a "good outcome" in how you describe it but to do what I see as my obligation and responsibility once I undertook to be a parent.  This is for me personally -I don't care why other people do it.  Certainly I hope for the best for our son and while there are no guarantees I feel my obligation in raising a human is what I wrote. 

And with this self-imposed obligation comes -very often - a ton of hard work, stress, sacrifice, blood, sweat, tears, bodily fluids and aggravation - all of which I signed up for, all of which I am so blessed to undertake no regrets ever.  When I approach it that way parenthood is not easy in the least with rare exception and my child -thank goodness -so often tells me he loves me(and us!!) appreciates all we do, notices all we do and that is not what I "deserve" but it sure feels nice.  

I caution any parent who expects "if I just do x y and z plus good values my child will be easy to raise and become a good and successful human" -to think long and hard about having/adopting/fostering a child unless the mindset shifts.  That's again my personal opinion.

I'm not going to respond more to off topic stuff. 

[Big Stan]

1 minute ago, Batya33 said:

I'm going to keep my response shortish as this is entirely off topic.  I don't agree with your throw the baby out with the bathwater.  I don't do all the hard work I do and my husband doesn't do all the hard work he does to try to get a "good outcome" -I do it because this was always part of my life's work and goals -to be the best parent possible and act in the best interests of my child at all time - that is my goal, that is what I work towards every day - not to get a "good outcome" in how you describe it but to do what I see as my obligation and responsibility once I undertook to be a parent.  This is for me personally -I don't care why other people do it.  Certainly I hope for the best for our son and while there are no guarantees I feel my obligation in raising a human is what I wrote. 

And with this self-imposed obligation comes -very often - a ton of hard work, stress, sacrifice, blood, sweat, tears, bodily fluids and aggravation - all of which I signed up for, all of which I am so blessed to undertake no regrets ever.  When I approach it that way parenthood is not easy in the least with rare exception and my child -thank goodness -so often tells me he loves me(and us!!) appreciates all we do, notices all we do and that is not what I "deserve" but it sure feels nice.  

I caution any parent who expects "if I just do x y and z plus good values my child will be easy to raise and become a good and successful human" -to think long and hard about having/adopting/fostering a child unless the mindset shifts.  That's again my personal opinion.

I'm not going to respond more to off topic stuff. 

Yeah I guess you're entitled to your own opinion but I couldn't be more opposite in it.  I don't see the point in doing anything if I can't influence the outcome.  Luckily for me I think child rearing is absolutely something where you have a good degree of control over the example you set and the outcome of the relationship.  

Just like adult relationships the right effort strengthens a relationship and the wrong effort weakens it.  When you approach it that way, where your input matters and you are responsible for it parenting becomes pretty easy.  Sure my wife and I work hard as well, but we would be working hard regardless if we had kids or not as hard work is just who we are. 

[Cherylyn]

Everyone doesn't have to pay their fair share.  It's not a contest.  Each person agrees to do what they want to do and what they prefer.  It's nobody's business except the two people doing the check splitting,  taking turns picking up the tab,  treating each other to a meal,  some people keep score whereas others prefer not to.  It's a free country. 

What works for OP and others,  is swell.  Everyone does what they want.  There is no set rule feminism or not.  Traditionalism or not. 

What works for some people is disagreeable for others which is fine.  It's the couple's decision making to figure out their economics with check splitting since this is the OP's @sff123 topic.  It's not that complicated unless you want it to be.  Negotiate or compromise if necessary.  Agree on something,  meet in the middle,  pay your own way or do whatever works for you.  Be harmonious and have a good time.  Enjoy dining out,  theater,  entertainment or whatever.  If money is going to be such a sticky,  ugly source of contention and arguing is the norm,  then this person wasn't meant for you to be with in the first place. 

Or, choose a cheaper outing where money isn't involved. 

Either be compatible or it won't work.  Move onto someone who can have a peaceful relationship with you.  Anyone else is a no-go.  ☹️