feminism not a variable? check splitting

[smackie9]

On 5/21/2023 at 6:10 AM, Big Stan said:

That doesn't seem like the answer to me as a man when men are still overwhelmingly expected to ask women out.  Also I don't see how a man opening your door is good manners.  That one I never understood at all.  What are you trying to demonstrate as a man by doing so, and what are you demonstrating as a woman by not opening your own?  

 

When I was single over 30 years ago, I asked men out and paid. If I was single today I would have np doing the same thing. As for good manners, it all depends on where and when the person grows up and what example or what they were taught. Having good manners is an asset, but as a woman I don't look at it as an entitlement. NOR do I have to prove anything to a man that I can open a door for myself. On occasion I do open doors for men, some feel uncomfortable me doing that tho, so it's different strokes bud.

Lots of women are scared to ask men out because they feel it leaves an impression that they are easy and only looking for sex. That's what is going on in the female brain. We have plenty of young ladies looking for advice on this because they do want to ask men out.

[Big Stan]

1 hour ago, smackie9 said:

When I was single over 30 years ago, I asked men out and paid. If I was single today I would have np doing the same thing. As for good manners, it all depends on where and when the person grows up and what example or what they were taught. Having good manners is an asset, but as a woman I don't look at it as an entitlement. NOR do I have to prove anything to a man that I can open a door for myself. On occasion I do open doors for men, some feel uncomfortable me doing that tho, so it's different strokes bud.

Lots of women are scared to ask men out because they feel it leaves an impression that they are easy and only looking for sex. That's what is going on in the female brain. We have plenty of young ladies looking for advice on this because they do want to ask men out.

I have no problem with the women who do ask men out and pay on occasion, but you'd be dishonest if you said that it's not STILL seen today overwhelmingly like a "man's" responsibility. 

[mylolita]

Hey sff123!

You can do whatever you want, and live your life however you'd like too! If someones values and political ideologies don't align with yours (and, if you have real conversation, you should find out all these things about a person by at least the third date) then, just move on!

I am massively libertarian in most of my thinking, as in, the least state intervention the better, and all for people to live their lives as they see fit, as long as it doesn't pose any harm to anyone, or break the law, so however people wanna date, splitting cheques, not splitting them - any of that, is up to the couple to decide.

I haven't dated for along time! I met my now husband when I was 18, and now I'm 33 with 3 kids, so it feels about five lifetimes ago (probably was!)

Personally, I couldn't be further from you on this front, as I joke I'm pretty much the last housewife standing! I have, for the most part (but not all!) a rare traditional relationship with my husband! He pays for absolutely everything, and has done for about the last 11 years. When I met him, I was an extremely hard worker, and worked two jobs even whilst in college, but once we moved in together, I dropped down to part time work, and my main aim became setting up house and raising a close in age family, with me hopefully financially able to stay at home until they get much older. Obviously, when we go out, he always pays for dinner, and always has, and as Bolt has said here, is one of those guys who many might label "insecure" but, it's just his personal belief that as the man of the house, you provide for your family, and see the woman and your children taken care of. Very old school. It's the same way my Grandma's lived. He is not a chauvinistic pig. I am free to work if I wanted to - I'm not held under captive key! But, we just do things differently to most people, and one of the reasons why I think we sparked instantly like kindred spirits was, we always felt extremely different.

I think the general consensus now is more aligned with your personal beliefs - that modern couples meet half, or the person in the marriage or partnership who earns the most splits the bills and meals out in line with their bigger earnings. 

If I was out dating now, I know this is going to sound very bratty to some people, and selfish, and big headed, but there would be no way I'd be splitting any cheques!!! If you want to ask me out, I don't expect a fancy meal, a coffee will be perfect! But, in my opinion, if they're a gentlemen, they ask the girl, they pay for the date!

Each to their own OP! 

I hope you have great success dating and, stick to your own convictions and principles, do what works for you, and you won't fall too short!

x

[Batya33]

Lolita it is five lifetimes.  At least.  And you know it feels for me like a year ago that I had to navigate all the changes of who pays, who asks, what’s a first meet and wow I can order tickets online in advance which makes it easier to treat an um reluctant date.  But I agree with Seraphim and Catfeeder that feminism as a label - does not feel relevant to me because of what it seems to refer to now as compared to let’s say the 70s and 80s.

 I didn’t define myself as one then but I remember a fellow intern saying to me we were “college women “ not “girls” and never having heard that before. (She was a brilliant person who became a doctor and married a bit later in life ). also we would have lunch at the ubiquitous salad bars back then and we never spoke of dating or boys.  
This to me is important. I think when women have goals in addition to relationships or marriage - whether academic or work or art or sports then in context the whole dating practices stuff is just one of many things that inform their beliefs about equality and “feminism “.

 A woman who is “straight “ and who is Uber focused on dating and has not much else going on especially in her 20s is going to be overly intense about how feminism relates to dating men.
 If she has other and diverse interests then her beliefs will be broader and take into account how “equality” affects her daily life.  

[boltnrun]

12 minutes ago, mylolita said:

as Bolt has said here, is one of those guys who many might label "insecure"

But the difference is, your husband provides for you and your shared children not because he thinks you're incapable of taking care of yourself but because he wants to and feels it's his responsibility. I don't think he believes you are "masculine" if you're capable of taking care of yourself. The guy I dated thought I was insulting him if I offered to pay. And he thought women SHOULD be helpless without a man to provide for them and pay for everything and do things like car maintenance and household repairs. A woman who is not helpless without a man is masculine and unattractive, in this guy's opinion. 

I agree that this is highly individual. What some people would find unacceptable would be just fine for others. 

[mylolita]

12 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Lolita it is five lifetimes.  At least.  And you know it feels for me like a year ago that I had to navigate all the changes of who pays, who asks, what’s a first meet and wow I can order tickets online in advance which makes it easier to treat an um reluctant date.  But I agree with Seraphim and Catfeeder that feminism as a label - does not feel relevant to me because of what it seems to refer to now as compared to let’s say the 70s and 80s.

 I didn’t define myself as one then but I remember a fellow intern saying to me we were “college women “ not “girls” and never having heard that before. (She was a brilliant person who became a doctor and married a bit later in life ). also we would have lunch at the ubiquitous salad bars back then and we never spoke of dating or boys.  
This to me is important. I think when women have goals in addition to relationships or marriage - whether academic or work or art or sports then in context the whole dating practices stuff is just one of many things that inform their beliefs about equality and “feminism “.

 A woman who is “straight “ and who is Uber focused on dating and has not much else going on especially in her 20s is going to be overly intense about how feminism relates to dating men.
 If she has other and diverse interests then her beliefs will be broader and take into account how “equality” affects her daily life.  

Isn't it just Batya! Isn't it JUST!!!

I always liked Judge Judy's take on this (I know it might seem strange, but I find her a weird source of inspiration!) When interviewed regarding feminism, she said when she went to get her law degree, she was the only female student there, but that she does not identify as a feminist, and she said, she would never call herself a "female lawyer" or "female judge" - she said, "I am a judge. Plain and simple."

And I liked that. I believe in equal opportunity. I believe western women definitely have that now, so in my opinion, a third wave feminist agenda seems lost in 2023. But that's just my personal opinion, and I know so many others wouldn't agree with that, and I have had many many women feel very strongly about how I live my life, or that I am selling myself short or making myself vulnerable, etc. I guess success is different to many people too! Success for me is being a full time mother to the best of my ability, and keeping a loving and strong marriage, and never divorcing. Career and anything like that comes secondary, and is something I would like to focus on when my kids grow up, and don't need so much care and attention. I suppose I have done things the opposite way round to most modern women, who have their career first, then family and marriage later now. But I always say, each to their own, and as long as people are happy and fulfilled, it doesn't bother me much! As long as they don't try to tell me how to live my life, I'm all good!

I ironically remember thinking at 18 (y'know, when you know it all!) that I would probably be single forever, maybe get to do some art, write a little, live in a little cottage, work odd strange off beat jobs, maybe be able to save up for a vintage car! HA! My life completely changed a few months after I came to that conclusion! So things take different turns, and your perceptions and principles can shift as well, I realise I wasn't the mega introvert I thought I was in my teens!

I feel quite old fashioned when I realise, I am definitely in the minority when I say, I wouldn't ever ask a guy out! As, I see that as the part where he has to "win the girl!" Show some courage, make the move! But I am very 1950s in that respect! But also an old school romantic! I like the idea of the man asking the girls fathers permission before he proposes, being carried over the threshold of the door, other traditional romantic and family values. It's not for everyone. I just don't feel oppressed, that's all, I know I weirdly have more freedom than most women, because I get to do what I want, work or not, and I realise not many people are in that privileged situation where they can have a nice lifestyle and go about things as their own leisure. 

I actually find these dating and romance and practical threads really interesting because, it almost gives you a little sample of the current thinking and pulse of things!

Equality seems the general aim, so if that equates to splitting cheques, and couples feel that's fair, then it makes sense! It's just not my private way of doing things!

I think you are 15 years in as well aren't you Batya!? Congratulations!!!

x

 

[mylolita]

21 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

But the difference is, your husband provides for you and your shared children not because he thinks you're incapable of taking care of yourself but because he wants to and feels it's his responsibility. I don't think he believes you are "masculine" if you're capable of taking care of yourself. The guy I dated thought I was insulting him if I offered to pay. And he thought women SHOULD be helpless without a man to provide for them and pay for everything and do things like car maintenance and household repairs. A woman who is not helpless without a man is masculine and unattractive, in this guy's opinion. 

I agree that this is highly individual. What some people would find unacceptable would be just fine for others. 

That's very true Bolt! I am actually very classically tom boyish, maybe a bit like yourself! Love driving, love cars, been on a race track once, love muscle cars. I dress a mash up of feminine and "boyish!" might be the French in me! Shirts but always with lipstick! I am quite assertive and in previous jobs have negotiated pay rises, etc. which is seem as quite a masculine thing to do. But, I would still class myself as a kept woman and a very feminine woman, and that's okay, I'm not trapped, and I can do as I please. 

I think as long as the other person in the relationship supports you, and encourages your dreams and passions, and "sets you free" or lets you go in a way, the other stuff is only minor details. I'm far from perfect, and my husband has a whole job on his hands probably just being with me (poor guy!) but, it really is down to the couple.

I often think I don't know how it would go for me if I were dating now, I honestly don't. I don't know how well my traditional values would be received! HA! This might even be why I subconsciously ended up with an older man. I'm not sure if men in my age bracket would be okay with financially supporting their wife and children! I have a guess, probably not, generally! So maybe I got lucky, or met a similar minded guy, or maybe we're out of touch with modern society! Probably all three!

I think the OP's sentiment of splitting cheques and financial equality in relationships is now the expected norm.

I'm sorry the guy you dated made you feel bad - that's not cool. Glad you moved on and have perspective!

x

[boltnrun]

4 minutes ago, mylolita said:

I'm sorry the guy you dated made you feel bad

Oh no, he didn't make me feel bad. Not at all. It was more bemused, that this man would call me "masculine" and "like a man" because I changed out the battery in my car and didn't call him sobbing and begging for help. We were out to lunch one time and this "girl" (his word) called him crying and beside herself because her child's father was giving her a hard time. She called him constantly in tears, not knowing what to do about this or that.  I'm sure you'll be shocked to hear he moved in with her and had a long relationship with her after me (well, actually during, but that's a story for another time). She was the perfect helpless female he found so alluring. Unlike manly me 😆

I don't feel a wife and mother is "kept". A wife and mother is doing a LOT to keep a household and family going. Now, those who have a full time nanny, maid AND cook to do everything while they shop and go to lunch with their girlfriends are another story, but I figure how they conduct their lives is none of my business. 

One thing I would find offensive is if I'm out somewhere with a man or some friends and when the check comes they either just sit there or they push it toward me. I had that happen with a friend for what was a birthday dinner for me with friends. She and her boyfriend just sat there when the check came and I ended up paying for their meals and drinks. Neither of them offered even a ten dollar bill. But they had money for the slot machines at the casinos 🙄

[Cherylyn]

6 minutes ago, mylolita said:

And I liked that. I believe in equal opportunity. I believe western women definitely have that now, so in my opinion, a third wave feminist agenda seems lost in 2023. But that's just my personal opinion, and I know so many others wouldn't agree with that, and I have had many many women feel very strongly about how I live my life, or that I am selling myself short or making myself vulnerable, etc. I guess success is different to many people too! Success for me is being a full time mother to the best of my ability, and keeping a loving and strong marriage, and never divorcing. Career and anything like that comes secondary, and is something I would like to focus on when my kids grow up, and don't need so much care and attention. I suppose I have done things the opposite way round to most modern women, who have their career first, then family and marriage later now. But I always say, each to their own, and as long as people are happy and fulfilled, it doesn't bother me much! As long as they don't try to tell me how to live my life, I'm all good!

I ironically remember thinking at 18 (y'know, when you know it all!) that I would probably be single forever, maybe get to do some art, write a little, live in a little cottage, work odd strange off beat jobs, maybe be able to save up for a vintage car! HA! My life completely changed a few months after I came to that conclusion! So things take different turns, and your perceptions and principles can shift as well, I realise I wasn't the mega introvert I thought I was in my teens!

I feel quite old fashioned when I realise, I am definitely in the minority when I say, I wouldn't ever ask a guy out! As, I see that as the part where he has to "win the girl!" Show some courage, make the move! But I am very 1950s in that respect! But also an old school romantic! I like the idea of the man asking the girls fathers permission before he proposes, being carried over the threshold of the door, other traditional romantic and family values. It's not for everyone. I just don't feel oppressed, that's all, I know I weirdly have more freedom than most women, because I get to do what I want, work or not, and I realise not many people are in that privileged situation where they can have a nice lifestyle and go about things as their own leisure. 

I actually find these dating and romance and practical threads really interesting because, it almost gives you a little sample of the current thinking and pulse of things!

Equality seems the general aim, so if that equates to splitting cheques, and couples feel that's fair, then it makes sense! It's just not my private way of doing things!



 

I'm with you @mylolita.  In some ways,  I too am very traditional but I've been molded this way due to my very fortunate circumstances.  My husband hails from a traditional,  very loving,  stable home life with his parents and siblings in the suburbs very reminiscent of my current lifestyle.  To us,  it's the norm. 

When my sons were little,  I did not want to drag a drowsy baby out of his crib and drop them off at daycare all day,  everyday.  I wanted to watch my sons grow up.  I wanted to tend to them my way.  I wanted to make sure they were safe and healthy the way I wanted to take care of them;  not anyone else,  no paid help nor the like.  I wanted to have "eagle eyes" on them because I wanted the responsibility.  I'm grateful for my husband being able to be the provider.  I'm very satisfied knowing they were cared and looked after with extreme thoroughness in every way. 

If my husband couldn't economically support a wife and sons,  yes,  of course,  I would've marched off to employment day in and day out.  No choice just like my single parent mother of 3 with zero child support and we remained in our suburban house, too.

Btw, I like the fact that a man would ask his future father-in-law (FIL)'s for his daughter's hand in marriage.  Or, his future brother-in-law (BIL),  mother-in-law (MIL) if the FIL is absent.  It's very respectful.  It is old-fashioned but I like this form of utmost respect.  I don't fault any man who doesn't approach his future FIL but I still find it very respectful to continue this old-fashioned tradition.

I like old-fashioned romance, too.  However,  I draw the line at sappy cards,  trinkets,  flowers and candy.  My husband knows I prefer my purses,  clothes,  shoes,  (already have fine jewelry), frequenting the hair salon, pretty manicures / pedicures (which I've perfected myself!) and looking put together.  I don't like neglecting myself nor looking drab,  dowdy and frumpy.  I've always been very feminine.  It's just my way.  I've never been dime-a-dozen.  ☺️

[Batya33]

Going on 15 years Lolita !  I love judge Judy too. So much. In fact I had a first meet many years ago with one of her relatives. But it was a one and done lol.  Partly because sort of long distance I guess. 
I personally don’t think women have the same opportunities as men. And I think it’s improved. 

[smackie9]

1 hour ago, Big Stan said:

I have no problem with the women who do ask men out and pay on occasion, but you'd be dishonest if you said that it's not STILL seen today overwhelmingly like a "man's" responsibility. 

I accept this reality, it is what it is, and it's something no one can change but maybe time. I don't play into this tradition, but that's just me because I'm fiercely independent. Some men like it, feel it's refreshing, some do not because it's a threat to their masculinity. You on the other hand complaining about it won't do anything for you. If you don't like this tradition, then don't ask women out. Be proactive and wait for a nice lady to ask you out/pay for a the date with no obligation. See how that goes for you. If you are cute/dapper enough, a cougar will treat you so right.

[mylolita]

36 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Going on 15 years Lolita !  I love judge Judy too. So much. In fact I had a first meet many years ago with one of her relatives. But it was a one and done lol.  Partly because sort of long distance I guess. 
I personally don’t think women have the same opportunities as men. And I think it’s improved. 

She is Jewish also I think?! 

She's FAB! She absolutely reminds me of a female relative on my husbands side! It is beyond cool you got to meet someone in her inner circle! 

x

[mylolita]

44 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

Oh no, he didn't make me feel bad. Not at all. It was more bemused, that this man would call me "masculine" and "like a man" because I changed out the battery in my car and didn't call him sobbing and begging for help. We were out to lunch one time and this "girl" (his word) called him crying and beside herself because her child's father was giving her a hard time. She called him constantly in tears, not knowing what to do about this or that.  I'm sure you'll be shocked to hear he moved in with her and had a long relationship with her after me (well, actually during, but that's a story for another time). She was the perfect helpless female he found so alluring. Unlike manly me 😆

I don't feel a wife and mother is "kept". A wife and mother is doing a LOT to keep a household and family going. Now, those who have a full time nanny, maid AND cook to do everything while they shop and go to lunch with their girlfriends are another story, but I figure how they conduct their lives is none of my business. 

One thing I would find offensive is if I'm out somewhere with a man or some friends and when the check comes they either just sit there or they push it toward me. I had that happen with a friend for what was a birthday dinner for me with friends. She and her boyfriend just sat there when the check came and I ended up paying for their meals and drinks. Neither of them offered even a ten dollar bill. But they had money for the slot machines at the casinos 🙄

It's an interesting topic isn't it, the role of the modern man and modern woman!

I read a psychology article once describing a mans "hero complex". We've all heard how men don't want to just simply sit and listen to a problem, they normally have an urge to come up with solutions and fix things? (Generally speaking!) Well, this "hero complex" was a theory that, most men will feel attraction when this is triggered. The old age damsel in distress. It puts them in need, makes them important, and gives them a purpose, and, it also initiates that primal protective spirit men have. I mean, this isn't all men of course but, I think subconsciously, men actually like to provide, be needed, and protect. I think it's quite an instinct they have. (I could be totally wrong!) 

I mean, when personalities and principles are not compatible, they just aren't, and there's nothing you can do about it!

I bet there are plenty of guys who would love a mechanical and engineer minded go getting hands on woman, and there are plenty of guys who like a girlie girl. It's definitely each to their own!

I couldn't see myself with a "New Age" kinda guy. It would drive me up the wall. And most modern men who believe in total equality and splitting bills and cleaning and work and childcare wouldn't be able to get on with me either. As you say, it's all each to their own!

I have to say, I'm a massive fan of boxing, and always follow all the main fights (husband was an amateur boxer when I met him) but, there's something about women's boxing, I don't like. I don't want to watch it one bit. Why is that? It's hard to explain. Why do I feel easier at the idea of my son going into a boxing gym and not my daughter? The thought of her taking hits to her face repulses me, but as fearful as it would make me feel for my son, it doesn't conjure up the same feelings! Am I being sexist? Should women be completely equal in all senses? Go to war, be given the draft just like men? I don't believe in that. I think we are the weaker sex, definitely physically, no doubt about it. I think things can never be equal for men and women, because we are so different, but together, we make a better team than apart, I know that!

I'm still not splitting a cheque - LOL!

x

 

[boltnrun]

I think there can be a middle ground between "helpless female" and "masculine engine lifter". I physically can't pull an engine (and don't feel the need to) but I can change the wipers on my car or install a new shower head and take pride in doing so. But homeboy thought I was a dude because I installed a new battery. He was practically searching my body for a penis. 

A young lady I worked with was telling me about how the alternator on her car crapped out so she went to the auto parts store and bought a new one, removed the old one and installed the new one. So cool! And this is a pretty, feminine looking young lady whose side job is makeup artist. And yet she can rebuild a tranny. She said her dad taught her so she wouldn't have to pay massive amounts to a mechanic. Very practical.

I don't think paying for a meal makes me a dude. And I'm sorry, but a guy who thinks I'm packing a penis or feels emasculated because I offered to buy him a burger isn't the one for me. To me that's different than a man who feels it's his responsibility to provide for me because I'm his wife. 

[Cherylyn]

I'm very independent.  However,  I have no qualms deferring to my husband for car repairs / car maintenance,   house repairs / maintenance.  It's his domain and he's good at it.   I'm better at cooking than he is so I take over cooking and he cleans up and helps with ALL house work,  errands,  etc.  Sometimes we'll both cook as it is good bonding time for camaraderie.   He's big,  tall and strong as are my sons and I often defer to them to install our security systems,  heavy lifting (if required),  reaching for something or whatever.   Different strokes for different folks.  😋

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, mylolita said:

She is Jewish also I think?! 

She's FAB! She absolutely reminds me of a female relative on my husbands side! It is beyond cool you got to meet someone in her inner circle! 

x

I don't know what her religion is. She's definitely a great role model for women.  

[boltnrun]

Well, for some of us who don't currently have husbands it's very useful to be able to do things ourselves. I would rather change out the toilet float valve myself than pay someone $100 to do it for me!

[Big Stan]

2 hours ago, smackie9 said:

I accept this reality, it is what it is, and it's something no one can change but maybe time. I don't play into this tradition, but that's just me because I'm fiercely independent. Some men like it, feel it's refreshing, some do not because it's a threat to their masculinity. You on the other hand complaining about it won't do anything for you. If you don't like this tradition, then don't ask women out. Be proactive and wait for a nice lady to ask you out/pay for a the date with no obligation. See how that goes for you. If you are cute/dapper enough, a cougar will treat you so right.

I don’t think it’s a great idea to ask anyone out. I figure my wife of 16 years would be rather upset. Don’t assume that just because I’m discussing something means it applies directly to me and my personal situation. 

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, boltnrun said:

Well, for some of us who don't currently have husbands it's very useful to be able to do things ourselves. I would rather change out the toilet float valve myself than pay someone $100 to do it for me!

This is why I’ve always loved living in buildings with excellent 24/7 maintenance people.  My mom lives in the apartment I grew up in. Owns it. Alone as my dad died in 2016. The maintenance people are basically the children and grandkids of the former ones. My mom is just the sweetest kindest person. They can’t do enough for her.  She’s also really low maintenance but she is 88. My mom worked part time starting when I was in 1st grade and my sister 5 years older.

We needed the $ and my mom enjoyed working.  But my dad was always the main provider and did tend to the chivalrous and traditional.  however he was very focused on my pursuing a career - not his field unless I really wanted to - but not “just “ getting married. he was thrilled when I did. He was not a feminist. Neither is my mom. 
By contrast my grandfather wanted to make sure I could make an excellent up of coffee to land a good man. I married a non coffee drinker.  

I would never have asked out my husband. But he was motivated finally to ask me out and get over his shyness because he said that at a work event I briefly touched his arm while we were chatting.  I didn’t remember doing that ! Once we were an item we just sort of made plans together or one would suggest. However he preferred to pay and I made sure we took turns. 

[boltnrun]

Having building maintenance is great, but they won't fix anything on my car and won't put together new furniture for me. Or connect my devices to my TV or computer. Living on my own for so long pretty much forced me to learn to do for myself. And now I don't need to ask for help for a lot of things, which I like. Especially when I lived several hundred miles from my family and didn't know anyone. Couldn't just call my brother and ask him to drive ten hours round trip to replace my wiper blades or put together my entertainment unit! (Pssst...he's not very handy anyway 😆)

Some men would be turned off watching me install a new shower head or put air in my tires. And some men would be really turned on 😜

[greendots]

When I'm on a date I really don't want to worry about finances. I'm a romantic at heart who enjoys it when the guy pays for me. Naturally, I'll happily treat my date when appropriate. I also appreciate it when he carries my heavy grocery bags. Of course I can do that myself, but the gesture in itself is wonderfully nice. Feeling like a lady–I truly dig that.

However, some people love splitting the bill and that's cool too–for those who like it. 😀

[Batya33]

7 hours ago, boltnrun said:

Having building maintenance is great, but they won't fix anything on my car and won't put together new furniture for me. Or connect my devices to my TV or computer. Living on my own for so long pretty much forced me to learn to do for myself. And now I don't need to ask for help for a lot of things, which I like. Especially when I lived several hundred miles from my family and didn't know anyone. Couldn't just call my brother and ask him to drive ten hours round trip to replace my wiper blades or put together my entertainment unit! (Pssst...he's not very handy anyway 😆)

Some men would be turned off watching me install a new shower head or put air in my tires. And some men would be really turned on 😜

I was referring to your specific example. I did have to up my skills as far as computers and setting up devices because I want to be more independent and my husband who is better at it than me is very busy. Fortunately it’s been about 9 years since we had furniture to put together but I hear you. I’ve never owned a car and haven’t driven a car in about five years. Have a license for 7 years now.
 

My husband doesn’t do his own car work and I’m sure has changed tires etc . So I assume if and when I drive again he wouldn’t do mine. My mom and sister do not drive. My mom never did. My sister did for a few years so in my immediate family my dad didn’t have those typical tasks (and not apartment maintenance either). He was handy and mechanically inclined though.  

My late father in law did do stuff around their home, gardened , and had his own tool box fully equipped. As does my husband and he’s very skilled in those areas!
I love how handy you are and it also means you save lots of $$ I’m sure !

I think many men depend on women to keep the family schedule even if there are no kids and even if they have to keep schedules at work. And depend on women to remember the birthdays and milestones and send the cards or buy the gifts. Yes it’s gendered but both make the household run even if it’s not whether the toilets flush properly. I hear of men sort of falling apart when they have to pick up the slack partly or all together like if their spouse is away or unwell etc. 

[Big Stan]

5 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I was referring to your specific example. I did have to up my skills as far as computers and setting up devices because I want to be more independent and my husband who is better at it than me is very busy. Fortunately it’s been about 9 years since we had furniture to put together but I hear you. I’ve never owned a car and haven’t driven a car in about five years. Have a license for 7 years now.
 

My husband doesn’t do his own car work and I’m sure has changed tires etc . So I assume if and when I drive again he wouldn’t do mine. My mom and sister do not drive. My mom never did. My sister did for a few years so in my immediate family my dad didn’t have those typical tasks (and not apartment maintenance either). He was handy and mechanically inclined though.  

My late father in law did do stuff around their home, gardened , and had his own tool box fully equipped. As does my husband and he’s very skilled in those areas!
I love how handy you are and it also means you save lots of $$ I’m sure !

I think many men depend on women to keep the family schedule even if there are no kids and even if they have to keep schedules at work. And depend on women to remember the birthdays and milestones and send the cards or buy the gifts. Yes it’s gendered but both make the household run even if it’s not whether the toilets flush properly. I hear of men sort of falling apart when they have to pick up the slack partly or all together like if their spouse is away or unwell etc. 

I think the whole men falling apart this day and age is largely fiction. Every one of us as a secretary in our pockets today. I use my phone calendar for everything. My wife doesn’t keep track of appointments or commitments any more than I do simply because I have a ton professionally to keep up with as well so I’m already in the habit of it. 
 

Very few people have a full time assistant these days to handle the comings and goings at work and one really isn’t necessary with technology. Since those skills are cultivated professionally it’s pretty easy to extend them personally. Just like how there are quite a few women who are not helpless damsels most men don’t fall apart at the thought of housework or remembering a birthday. 

[Batya33]

4 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

I think the whole men falling apart this day and age is largely fiction. Every one of us as a secretary in our pockets today. I use my phone calendar for everything. My wife doesn’t keep track of appointments or commitments any more than I do simply because I have a ton professionally to keep up with as well so I’m already in the habit of it. 
 

Very few people have a full time assistant these days to handle the comings and goings at work and one really isn’t necessary with technology. Since those skills are cultivated professionally it’s pretty easy to extend them personally. Just like how there are quite a few women who are not helpless damsels most men don’t fall apart at the thought of housework or remembering a birthday. 

I disagree. Many people compartmentalize.  They have their professional lives and personal. They hone skills differently in each. I was a bit different. I took my professional skills into parenting. Sleep deprivation.  Multitasking. My photographic memory at times (like I took certain closed book exams as open book because I could see the pages of my notes or a book ).  Being on the ready for fire drills so to speak. That’s part of parenting and was part of my full time professional life. Also I had a couple of years of teaching yoijg kids and daycare work and nannying and a teaching degree. By contrast mh husband had a huge heart and was over the moon about having a baby and had zero parenting or childcare experience.

 Also he does so much professionally keeping track of stuff and has since I guess at least the early 90s but then he’s done I guess. He doesn’t see the personal schedules in the same way. I see this a lot in married couples and I know several families who have house managers or want to hire one. We don’t.  
He’s improved a lot. I appreciate it and I work part time so I’m the one doing more of the adulting as far as appointments and planning and scheduling.  He’s much better at planning our travels. Flights and hotel and itineraries and road trips. what I described I see as fairly typical among the people I know and know of. 

[mylolita]

This is always such an interesting topic to me!

I guess, everyone is so individual, no one is all feminine and delicate and no one is all tough and macho all the time, that if a couple really works well, you find they are a bit of a "ying to the others yang" and you get a nice balancing act - where the other lacks, the other one makes up, and vice versa.

People definitely all have different dimensions and contradictions!

x