30 And Never Had A Girlfriend, Too Ugly?

[DarkCh0c0]

2 minutes ago, Carnatic said:

He just stands for everything I stand against, and I know people will claim he's misunderstood but I've seen enough of his content to have decided he isn't misunderstood he's just a nasty, misogynistic, bigoted demagogue.

Ah interesting. Even in the video lolita shared?

What makes you think he's misogynistic? I'm a be woman and I appreciate his slightly conservative view on dating (not that I fully agree with him on everything, but he says a lot of things that make sense).

[Carnatic]

Just now, DarkCh0c0 said:

Ah interesting. Even in the video lolita shared?

What makes you think he's misogynistic? I'm a be woman and I appreciate his slightly conservative view on dating (not that I fully agree with him on everything, but he says a lot of things that make sense).

I haven't watched the video lolita shared, and I guess you might be aware then of some of the things he has said as the argument you make about not agreeing with everything he says is fairly common. He does sometimes say things I'll admit that I don't disagree with but anyone can do that, it's unlikely there's anyone who ever existed who I 100% disagree with, however I view these sorts of things (and I'm not on board with his more soft-conservative views either so there's that) as just fluff that serves the purpose of elevating his overall view men's place and women's place.

I haven't watched everything he's ever done either but I don't subscribe to the view that you can't criticise someone until you're totally familiar with everything they've, like you have to watch every single video before your critique can be considered valid.

In case anyone isn't aware of some of his more objectionable views, the first one I can recall is him blaming a man who was angry that women weren't interested him going on a killing spree, killing six people, not on the man himself, or the culture that says men are entitled to sex if they're nice guys (this was the incel by the way) but on female promiscuity. He also argues that the reason men are in so many high powered jobs is because men are simply better at those jobs and that patriarchy is actually just a meritocracy.

[boltnrun]

Regarding driving, I don't believe "don't need to" and "can't" are equivalent.  But anyway...

Anyway, OP, I think you feel like you're not being heard.  I get it's frustrating.

But I keep circling back to my question (which I won't ask again!).  Non-visually attractive men date and have relationships every day.  So do non-visually attractive women. They've overcome their lack of physical beauty/handsomeness.  So it's possible.

Google Shane Madej.  He's a YouTuber.  Definitely not handsome.  But he has a cute wife.  Yes, you might argue, but he's a public figure!  He's not a well known public figure.  I bet most people on this forum have no idea who he is.  But he's a physically unattractive man who has a wife.  So is my BIL.  My brother's wife weighs about 275 pounds.  She found my brother, who adores her.  You get the point.

[MysteriousTelephone]

4 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Do you have close personal friends who are women -single or otherwise? And sorry if you answered this -do you find yourself generalizing about women or categories of women in a negative way? 

So I have a naive question about swing dancing -a number of my friends partook over the years and yes it's a great way to meet people (my friend married her salsa dancing instructor over 10 years ago!) - I understand about the rotating partners and I went to a sort of type of swing dancing lesson once where yes partners rotated, even partners who were there with dates -I think.  

I was at the wedding of my friend who married her instructor.  Lots of dancers there (including I guess swing dancers as I think her husband taught that as well?).  I was pregnant not showing yet.  My soon to be husband was there with me. 

I excused myself for the restroom and it took me longer (because of the pregnancy).  When I came back my husband was dancing with this woman.  He's a great dancer (took lessons with an ex girlfriend, likes swing music etc). 

I wasn't angry -trust my husband- but I was annoyed.  I stared at her I think.  He came over to me and explained that she asked him to dance.  He said he was here with me, I was coming right back (but I didn't).  She pestered him, explaining that it's how it works with swing dancing - rotating partners.  Except this was a wedding.  Not a swing dancing event.  And my husband had said no. 

My husband gave in as he felt awkward by this point and hoped I'd rescue him soon.  She was treated to a couple more stares from me as I thought it was rude of her how she behaved.

Makes me wonder -a bit -do you find the women you interact with are socially appropriate and are there to meet men to date or is it more for a night out of fun/honing dancing skills? Obviously this was just one woman who lacked basic manners and I had friends who participated in order to meet men (although not the bride really from all I knew).  Just wondering.  I have recommended dancing as you do as a way to meet women. That situation gave me a bit of a pause. 

Yes, I would say about half of my close friendships are women, the majority of my friends are couples, so that's just how it falls. I have asked them, discreetly, for some form of help, but as I said, it's just cartoonishly supportive "but there's nothing wrong with you!", which leaves me really very little to improve on. As much as I see these women only as friends, it's painfully obvious if they were single they wouldn't go for me. 

As for your question: It's a tricky one. At social swing events, it's completely normal to ask anyone to dance, even if you're there with your spouse and so are they, there's really nothing in it, it's just for the love of dancing. Okay, so this was a wedding but the social circle was full of people who dance, I don't think the woman was in the wrong to ask your husband to dance if she knew him and knew he danced. That would be on him to explain he's taking care of his pregnant wife, and would dance with her later. 

As for my classes; there's a mix. There are some older couples looking for something to do, there are experienced dancers who are new in town and just looking to dance, there are young single people. The young single people, the ones who really get taken with the scene, start to want a partner who can dance, as they'll already enjoy the scene and going to the social events, as well as learning more advanced things together. So it's surprisingly common for single women to start asking around to see who's available. I'm glad that you 'recommended dancing as a way to meet people', but since it's literally something I said in my opening post that I've been doing for nearly 10 years, I've got that part covered!

4 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

No, not buying a car. Just take your driver's test. Why not? At least you could rent a car if you ever needed to. 

Of course a license, cooking lessons, or help with your anxiety isn't going to put you on the cover of Time magazine's "sexiest man alive", but it won't hurt you either.

So it's a win-win situation Instead of defeatist and self-undermining thinking.

Wait... so your plan is for me to learn to drive, and then... not get a car? I'm not playing dumb here, I don't understand how this is supposed to help anything. If I'm still walking/cycling/taking transportation to places, should I get a badge or a t-shirt to assure women that I do in fact possess a driver's licence?

Again, I don't have anxiety meeting or talking to people, I'm very social, that's not the issue I'm having.

2 hours ago, mylolita said:

The swing dancing thing! Well! 
 

I have been to one swing dancing class! I am… a dancer! I got by! What I noticed was, and OP correct me if I am wrong, is that those classes have their core regulars who always attend, and the influx of new people, new girls coming in, isn’t very high? You might get a couple of new people every month? Most drop out, some stay on?

 

The reason I suggest a traditional bar is because the volume of strangers and new people is very high - the turn over of new women, also very high. There will be potentially hundreds of women there in any single night you have never met or seen.

 

I mean, I know maybe “the club” or “the bar” seems shady to some but, it’s where so many couples meet! My parents met at their local country club. Eric Clapton was playing, something like that! They were having drinks, my Dad was out with his older brother, my mum was with her cousin. I wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for that club! My husbands parents met at a bar. I’m sure many do. You can’t rule it out completely as a way to meet women unless you maybe are against drinking or nightlife. Some people it’s not their scene so I totally get that, but there is no doubt in my mind, a fantastic way to meet a high volume of new women.

 

I am listening as well - I was defending others suggestion about clothes and hygiene even though you have that covered, because it is a valid suggestion to make. You have to make sure the basics are covered. We are trying to get to the source of your issue, ticking off potential stumbling blocks. 

 

You claim confidence but… a confident guy wouldn’t be asking online for advice and opinion. You must be feeling it in some way to be here. If you have it all worked out and it’s just your face that is the problem, what more is there to do? Keep trying, or give up? I am being sincere when I ask you that.

 

My impression is your attitude is the issue, this is a good and a bad thing. It means you can change something, as your face is much harder to alter. But no one wants to hear their attitude might be the cause of the problem. I realise that is a hard pill to swallow, and that you feel I am wrong. Maybe I am, but that is my instinct from talking back and forth with you on here OP.  
 

I think we are all trying to be as constructive as we can be. I have even tried to suggest lines and ways to talk to women. What you say and how you say it does matter. “Can I buy you a drink” and “Let me buy you a drink” or “What are you drinking?- different phases make all the difference in my opinion. Ever talked to a sales person on the art of persuasion or negotiation? We all have to sell ourselves at some point in our life, never more so when we first meet the opposite sex in that first 5 minutes. 
 

x

Sort of! Of course there are core regulars in classes and social events, but being a big city we do get a high turnover of new young people; either students, or people coming over for work who are looking for a hobby. Not all stay on, of course, but as an opportunity to meet young single people, it's pretty golden.

Again, I'm not against bars and nightlife, as I've said I do go out most weekends to bars & clubs, my comment was that it's less fruitful if you're an unattractive person. I go with friends, and we have a good time talking, dancing etc, but usually the single ones end up pulling and I'm just dancing with my friends the entire night. That's not an awful thing, I'll say, but I'm just pointing out that it really is a different experience to ones you may have had.

Honestly I don't believe my attitude is the issue, purely because for the majority of my life I am a positive person, and I've had no issues making new friends. If my attitude was awful, I don't think I would have succeeded in that are quite so well. I have also pointed out, several times, that I am frequently rejected just from a visual perspective, without chance for my attitude to help or hinder me. When women in the club say "he's ugly!", they aren't talking about my mental headspace, they are referring to my physically. Yes, before you ask, I stand up straight, make eye contact with people.

2 hours ago, mylolita said:

It’s nice to be picked up for a date by the guy, especially as you get to know him. It’s nice to take drives together. Often when you are young, your car is your only sanctuary away from parents (okay somewhere to make out!). 
 

OP and others think it’s irrelevant but it is very relevant to me, personally! 
 

x

This may be a cultural thing, but in the UK it's not really that common to 'pick up' your date, women don't tend to give out their home addresses, nearly all of the time you meet your date at the bar or venue. I've lived in a city on my own since I was 18, I've had no issue with independence, it's just a culture where a lot of people don't drive.

2 hours ago, mylolita said:

And I have to say, most people can drive, have a license, so it does stand out as an unusual thing for me personally, especially if you get to your 30s and never passed your test. I’m trying to rack my brains and I actually don’t know anyone who can’t drive! I’m sure I must, but no one comes to mind. Only much younger people under 21.

x

Again, I think this is a culture thing. In big cities in the UK, it's incredibly common for people to never learn how to drive. The ones that do, usually do it either for work or because they need to transport their families. I don't get asked if I can drive, so I cannot see how it is being held against me.

1 hour ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

@mylolita you nailed it. However, don't count on @MysteriousTelephoneto watch the video as he doesn't have time to do so apparently. I forwarded a useful video previously, but OP won't take a look 🤓

That aside, I love Jordan's talks!! He's very good at what he does.

Wow, super salty I didn't get around to watching a YouTube video? That's not deliberate, I assure you, I really am doing my best to reply to everyone and make sure I address their specific points, I get yelled at if I don't. Perhaps if you write anything you need to say, rather than asking me to watch a video, you'll get a better response.

2 hours ago, mylolita said:

 

I do like Jordan Peterson, though I don't feel he's talking to me in this video. I don't feel angry at women, afraid of talking to them, or feel I'm only taking to women who are 'out of my league'.

I do feel this talk is aimed more at the men who aren't very social, don't dress nicely, can't talk to girls, live with their parents etc. Sure, I agree, he's not wrong, those are things you need to work on if you expect to get anywhere. My question is: what do you do if you're doing all of those things, and still getting nowhere?

[DarkCh0c0]

2 hours ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

My question is: what do you do if you're doing all of those things, and still getting nowhere?

You consult a paid professional and not random strangers on the internet.

How about that?

[mylolita]

I am from the UK! 

My experience is totally different - everyone I know drives! I fly in middle class circles where people have money for cars and what not, maybe that might be the difference. People who have expendable income normally end up with a car, especially when you start having children.

I have noticed in the younger generation, there IS a trend for not driving, or learning to drive late - but I see that in people the generation below me (my sisters generation I would say, she is 2 years younger than me, I am 32). They are doing everything later, driving included. They are getting married later, having babies later, buying homes later - starting careers later. Adolescence is prolonged completely in my opinion. 

I was a fully fledged woman at 18, or before that even. I didn't want a boy messing around, I wanted someone who knew what they were doing, had a plan, was executing it, and was confident and thought for themselves. I went for older men. My husband of 8 years is nearly 10 years older than me. I have been with him for 15 years, Generally, I found older men had their stuff together and were also more ready to settle down. They were established and knew what they wanted. 

Just from a female perspective, my perspective here  - as a 30 year old woman, not an 18 year old woman like I was, I would be looking for even more in a man! Driving, owning their own home, established career or job... practically, because quite a lot of women in their 30s remember are starting to seriously look to settle down, get married, and have babies. So as a 30 year old man, you need to have it together in my opinion, to the best of your ability. I think that is what Jordan Peterson is saying. The competition is high. I want someone confident. Why is a single woman going to choose you over the guy next to you? Metaphorically, what are you offering her? 

In psychology, there is a notion that women pick "the package" and men pick "the woman". Women are looking for many a different thing, because they get pregnant, and most of them want to support the babies they will have with a competent, healthy man who is going to help provide for her children and be the rock when times get tough. Men tend to marry the woman for the woman. Men don't tend to hone in too much on a woman's job, her finances, even her intelligence. It is important generally to men but, women place much higher importance in it when looking for a mate. For example, men don't expect women to make them laugh, but often a man being funny and humorous is in the top five traits on women's list that they like in a man. 

Men are generally visual creatures, women are looking at the big picture. 

You may think women are simply looking at you and giving you the cold shoulder straight away, but peoples first impressions are incredibly vast. They judge your social status, financial status, confidence, health, age, sexuality - and more - in under a second. They don't have to have spoken to you either.

What do you project?

That is a genuine question. You think you are projecting confidence, a friendly nature, a fun social person. That's what you think. I ask in a genuine way - how do you know this? 

x



 

[Batya33]

4 hours ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

As for your question: It's a tricky one. At social swing events, it's completely normal to ask anyone to dance, even if you're there with your spouse and so are they, there's really nothing in it, it's just for the love of dancing. Okay, so this was a wedding but the social circle was full of people who dance, I don't think the woman was in the wrong to ask your husband to dance if she knew him and knew he danced. That would be on him to explain he's taking care of his pregnant wife, and would dance with her later. 

Will return to on topic.  Thank you.  She didn't know anything about him or that he danced. He said no -that his girlfriend was in the restroom and would be unhappy if she came out and couldn't find him -and she pestered him so he felt awkward.  Otherwise sure would have been ok.

I love that you do swing dancing -for a variety of reasons not just to meet single women -it's so positive, it's something so rewarding because you improve/meet different dance partners/get exercise - I used to go out dancing regularly but more like you know to 80s hits!

On the female friends -don't joke around -be straight up "I am having a challenging time meeting people.  Do you know of any single women you can introduce me to?"  The "nothing wrong with you" is such a throwaway line.

Because this is such an active thread I "noticed" that among the small group I was in today with my son to do our in person orientation at the animal shelter we plan to volunteer at, there were two seemingly single guys maybe in their 20s-30s - neither "hot" but you know perfectly pleasant looking, one odd negative-seeming 20 something woman, and another single woman who was middle aged and fine looking (I strongly believed she was single). 

And I noticed a lot of friendly, casual, natural chatter among people who were there walking dogs, coming to foster or adopt, etc.  This location is near a walking trail where some of the volunteers walk the shelter dogs.  Anyway - just another "idea" of a way to meet people??

[Mammalyssa]

Put it this way... someone with no licence can basically never leave the city unless you're doing a flying holiday or paying for distance transportation. 

Thats unattractive.  What about long drives in the countryside? Lol 

We regularly drive 7 hours to the next city where we are. I cant even imagine how limited life would be  and how small your little life bubble is to rarely leave a city. 

[Batya33]

20 minutes ago, Distressedmamma said:

Put it this way... someone with no licence can basically never leave the city unless you're doing a flying holiday or paying for distance transportation. 

Thats unattractive.  What about long drives in the countryside? Lol 

We regularly drive 7 hours to the next city where we are. I cant even imagine how limited life would be  and how small your little life bubble is to rarely leave a city. 

I left all the time without being able to drive  -buses, commuter trains, friends who drove. I saw certain of my suburban friends as living in a bubble because they were scared to take public transportation and experience all the culture and arts and adventure and gorgeous nature in all the parks  the city had to offer and preferred to stay in their small neighborhood "bubble". Very limiting! Commuter trains were relaxing and no need to pay for gas/park, etc.  

Many families have only one spouse who drives. Mine did. My father drove and my mom was able to do almost all she wanted to do -with my father -by walking/public transportation. Also so much healthier IMO -so much more exercise and fresh air.

[Tinydance]

I'm just going to make one final comment and that will be it from me. To me it actually sounds like you're just full of excuses. You say you're making all this effort and sure you are making some effort. But you sound stuck in your ways and in your head. Any suggestions people made here, you argued against and came up with all sorts of excuses and reasons why you won't do it or there's no point, etc.

The cooking class being one example. You said you can cook already, about 5 - 6 dishes. OK big whoop! Most people who are adults who live alone can probably do that. I mean it's great but there is no reason basically at all why you couldn't do a cooking class and learn to cook more things, especially new things. For example like taking classes from another culture/cuisine. You said something would have to be given up for you to do cooking classes. Like the gym or something. Well, you need to think about what your priorities are. If you're not meeting any women at the gym then you should be open to trying something else.

Sitting there writing 50 pages just calling yourself ugly and yet you have a reason to rebuff every single good suggestions made to you and you argue vigorously against them. Any example of unattractive people who are in relationships have either been simply ignored or somehow challenged by you.

I don't know if you're ugly, have no idea, but you sound extremely stubborn and have a bad and negative attitude.

Good luck to you.

[Mammalyssa]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

I left all the time without being able to drive  -buses, commuter trains, friends who drove. I saw certain of my suburban friends as living in a bubble because they were scared to take public transportation and experience all the culture and arts and adventure and gorgeous nature in all the parks  the city had to offer and preferred to stay in their small neighborhood "bubble". Very limiting! Commuter trains were relaxing and no need to pay for gas/park, etc.  

Many families have only one spouse who drives. Mine did. My father drove and my mom was able to do almost all she wanted to do -with my father -by walking/public transportation. Also so much healthier IMO -so much more exercise and fresh air.

I understand what you're saying and the convenience of being in the city with options. I'm just saying as a personal preference... I would actually be quite put off that someone didn't have a licence. No matter how you put it and how YOU do it... its limiting yourself to a smaller world than if you have the option to drive across the country whenever you decide to. My life has been full of travels and adventures across borders so to me that would be a big one. 

[Batya33]

40 minutes ago, Distressedmamma said:

I understand what you're saying and the convenience of being in the city with options. I'm just saying as a personal preference... I would actually be quite put off that someone didn't have a licence. No matter how you put it and how YOU do it... its limiting yourself to a smaller world than if you have the option to drive across the country whenever you decide to. My life has been full of travels and adventures across borders so to me that would be a big one. 

No IMHO it actually makes your world smaller if you live in a city and insist on owning a car -all that $ spent on parking instead of saving the $ -that is life narrowing - all the stress of owning a car but can rarely use, etc. 

My life has been full of travel and adventures despite not driving (I have a license now -do not use it -got it age 49)- and I know people who are so attached to their cars the thought of walking 20-30 minutes somewhere instead of driving is unheard of -and since I walk so much and my son does we've had so many adventures people watching and exploring that we wouldn't have had passively driving around.  I've been to multiple U.S. cities, multiple countries, as has my husband and son (son is 13 -he doesn't drive - hasn't limited his options at all!)

You're assuming people who don't drive won't choose other modes of transportation to get around or pay $ for the privilege because in the city -it's worth the $ for a taxi rather than owning a car and sitting in bumper to bumper traffic to go ten blocks and then look for parking. 

Your assumption that a person must be able to drive himself somewhere in order to have travel and adventures makes no sense -so a person without a pilots license is limiting her options because to go to Europe from the U.S. she'd have to have another person piloting the plane?

It's simply based on a false assumption that to travel somewhere unless you can do the driving -or flying -or sailing -or cruising you are limiting your options.  A person who cannot drive whatever is used on a safari is limiting his option to go on safari because that person will have to have a tour guide? A person who cannot operate a cruise liner is limiting their options to go on a cruise, yes?  A person who cannot operate a train cannot go on one of those amazing 3-day train rides through the Canadian Rockies?

The beauty of travel and adventure is there are just as many people who want to take you places -plane/car/boat as there are people who want to be passengers.  I've never had to forego any travel or adventure experience because I could not drive, or operate a plane, boat, train, etc.  Sometimes it's more challenging being a non driver just like it's more challenging for people in the suburbs to get around in bad weather because they have to drive. 

We had a horrible storm in my area when my son was 4.  People were stranded in their cars for hours and hours.  My son's teachers were stranded at school overnight because the parents couldn't drive to their children.  So I picked him up with his stroller and a rain cover and he was in his heavy coat all bundled up -put him in the stroller and we walked the mile home (I had really good snow/ice boots), faster than any car on the road and also picked up a pizza and sandwiches on the way. 

Who had more options? The drivers stuck on the highway (which was awful -i felt awful for all of them!!) or my son and me being able to get home with our stroller wheels and my feet?  I also find it so limiting when you have to drive to get somewhere and there are car troubles.  Typically I don't have feet troubles.  

[Mammalyssa]

Not sure why you're trying to convince me that not having a licence gives you just as many options. People with a licence have all those same options that you have, plus the option of driving their own vehicle.

 

I'm talking camping and long driving trips. I dont like being a tourist... the freedom of driving to wherever you want to explore without a plan/schedule. Get your car bogged in sandhills etc are all adventures that are something you miss out on if you don't have a licence. 

 

I've already said.. my own personal opinion is that dating someone without a licence would be a no deal for me. I can't share a long driving trip with someone who has no licence.  I'm sure I'm not alone in my opinion.

Clearly city living means you don't get the country 'lifestyle'. 

[boltnrun]

Considering that I personally know men who have no job, five children with four different women and live with their parents at age 30 yet still have girlfriends, I'm not sure the OP is going to be particularly motivated to get his driver's license under the presumption that not having one is what's preventing him from finding a woman to date.

I'm in the "never would consider not having a license or a car" group and wouldn't date a man who has neither, but I'm not convinced that is what's causing women to choose not to swipe right on the OP's Tinder photo. I don't know the reasons why, but I find it hard to believe that's what women look for when perusing photos on Tinder. Unless I have it wrong and one's driver license status is listed alongside the photo.

[Mammalyssa]

Oh absolutely! Am generalising here of course and applying it further than just tinder. But yes you're right, zero swipes on tinder would also have me questioning my attractiveness. 

[Wonderstruck]

23 hours ago, Distressedmamma said:

I had a huge chat with a family friend the other night.. he's a man in his 60s and he is ridiculously popular with the ladies of almost every age group. Yet there is nothing special about how he looks. I was able to see it from a female perspective because I have spent time around him and I can see why they're attracted to him. 

It's because - 

He makes women feel safe when he's out and about. He'll stand up for a woman who looks unfortable at the unwanted advances of other men. 

He always speaks respectfully to them and like they're a good mate, rather than having the agenda to flirt and get them into bed like so many men do these days.

He keeps his hands to himself even if they're clearly flirting with him.

He'll offer to help them out in whatever way he can if the opportunity comes up. This is without the expectation of payment or that they might owe him something romantically. 

Basically he acts like a complete gentleman in a world that is full of opportunistics.  He does also end up with a lot of friends and it doesn't go further than that, which is also perfectly okay.

I don't want to derail this thread off-topic, but I just want to quickly say that your friend sounds absolutely lovely and YOU should get together with him, lol!

[Mammalyssa]

1 minute ago, Wonderstruck said:

I don't want to derail this thread off-topic, but I just want to quickly say that your friend sounds absolutely lovely and YOU should get together with him, lol!

Hahaha oh gosh he's my dads age, I dont think so!!! 😅 

[Wonderstruck]

Just now, Distressedmamma said:

Hahaha oh gosh he's my dads age, I dont think so!!! 😅 

LOL, yeah, he's old enough to be my Dad too, but he sounds like an absolute DREAM.

I can see why he's "ridiculously popular with the ladies of almost every age group", based on your description of his personality, lol.

To keep this on-topic, your description of this family friend may be important for MysteriousTelephone to consider.

[MysteriousTelephone]

11 hours ago, mylolita said:

I am from the UK! 

My experience is totally different - everyone I know drives! I fly in middle class circles where people have money for cars and what not, maybe that might be the difference. People who have expendable income normally end up with a car, especially when you start having children.

You may think women are simply looking at you and giving you the cold shoulder straight away, but peoples first impressions are incredibly vast. They judge your social status, financial status, confidence, health, age, sexuality - and more - in under a second. They don't have to have spoken to you either.

What do you project?

That is a genuine question. You think you are projecting confidence, a friendly nature, a fun social person. That's what you think. I ask in a genuine way - how do you know this? 
 

That's fair enough, you can only say what is true of your social circle. Like I said, within my circle, it's mostly people with families who drive, the majority of young people with no attachments don't seem to. It's not that I'm against ever learning to drive, it's that I've had no need of it so far.

I mean, it's easily said, but how exactly, from a photo, are people judging my social status, career opportunities, health etc? Or across a room in a bar? They literally have no idea if I'm a doctor with an Audi and an 11" schlong, or a drug dealer who lives with his parents. I dress nicely, but I don't go for flashy or expensive logos.

I agree entirely that women are looking for a complete package, but the ascertation that they know instantly if I can provide that just from a glance is poppycock. Surely the more obvious answer is that another part of the 'complete package' is 'good looking': If they see a good looking guy, they already know he has one part of the package, and will investigate further to see if the rest of his situation fits the bill. If they can see from a distance that he does not tick the 'good looking' box, they know already he's not the complete package.

The reason I believe I am a friendly, fun, social person, is because I have had very little in terms of self doubt, and I've never had a problem making friends very easily, whereas others my age have struggled. Pretty much every activity I've ever done, I've come away with a new friend very quickly, which is fairly unusual for a lot of people. I would argue that if I was not projecting myself as a funny, outgoing person, I would not be able to do so.

10 hours ago, Batya33 said:

On the female friends -don't joke around -be straight up "I am having a challenging time meeting people.  Do you know of any single women you can introduce me to?"  The "nothing wrong with you" is such a throwaway line.

Because this is such an active thread I "noticed" that among the small group I was in today with my son to do our in person orientation at the animal shelter we plan to volunteer at, there were two seemingly single guys maybe in their 20s-30s - neither "hot" but you know perfectly pleasant looking, one odd negative-seeming 20 something woman, and another single woman who was middle aged and fine looking (I strongly believed she was single). 

And I noticed a lot of friendly, casual, natural chatter among people who were there walking dogs, coming to foster or adopt, etc.  This location is near a walking trail where some of the volunteers walk the shelter dogs.  Anyway - just another "idea" of a way to meet people??

Yes, I've really had long in-depth conversations with them about it because it's something that's really bothering me, and I really value their opinions as friends. Sadly, because they know me, they know I'm hygenic, not awkward, go out a lot, so they really don't know what to suggest. They've lived their lives in a completely different way to mine, they don't seem to comprehend the scenario of putting yourself out there and having nobody be interested.

8 hours ago, Distressedmamma said:

Put it this way... someone with no licence can basically never leave the city unless you're doing a flying holiday or paying for distance transportation. 

Thats unattractive.  What about long drives in the countryside? Lol 

We regularly drive 7 hours to the next city where we are. I cant even imagine how limited life would be  and how small your little life bubble is to rarely leave a city. 

It's surprisingly common in UK cities for people not to learn to drive, I know enough single people of both genders who don't and it's not been a problem for them. In the long term it's a 'plus', of course, but I almost never get asked if I drive.

7 hours ago, Tinydance said:

I'm just going to make one final comment and that will be it from me. To me it actually sounds like you're just full of excuses. You say you're making all this effort and sure you are making some effort. But you sound stuck in your ways and in your head. Any suggestions people made here, you argued against and came up with all sorts of excuses and reasons why you won't do it or there's no point, etc.

The cooking class being one example. You said you can cook already, about 5 - 6 dishes. OK big whoop! Most people who are adults who live alone can probably do that. I mean it's great but there is no reason basically at all why you couldn't do a cooking class and learn to cook more things, especially new things. For example like taking classes from another culture/cuisine. You said something would have to be given up for you to do cooking classes. Like the gym or something. Well, you need to think about what your priorities are. If you're not meeting any women at the gym then you should be open to trying something else.

Sitting there writing 50 pages just calling yourself ugly and yet you have a reason to rebuff every single good suggestions made to you and you argue vigorously against them. Any example of unattractive people who are in relationships have either been simply ignored or somehow challenged by you.

I don't know if you're ugly, have no idea, but you sound extremely stubborn and have a bad and negative attitude.

Good luck to you.

Not full of excuses at all, I'm certainly finding it difficult to be heard, or at least understood. I say that I'm an outgoing person who's got no problems talking to anyone, and the next reply will be "sorry you've got this anxiety talking to girls, obviously it's not your looks", and it just feels like I'm hitting a brick wall. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the effort people have made here, I just don't think they believe the words that I'm saying, and I am compiling 14 years of experiences into this thread. I have tried a lot of things, and been rejected in a lot of different ways, that's not convenient excuses. 

Yes, with regards to the cooking classes: My point was that I have no interest in taking a cooking class as I'm happy with my own cooking, so me taking cooking classes would purely be based on finding women, which I think is a bad idea. Also considering I've listed at least three viable regular activities that I do that have a large influx of single women (dancing, meet-up groups, bars & clubs), my issue wasn't that I don't know where to meet women. Would being a more accomplished cook help me in a long term relationship? Absolutely. But it's of zero used to me when I can't even get my foot in the door when I'm turned down just from a photo of my face.

Can you imagine my female friends trying to set me up with one of their single friends, and showing them a photo:

"Sorry, he doesn't look like my type."
"I know, but he makes a lovely Rogan Josh. He can even deliver it for you in his 2003 Ford Focus."

[mylolita]

6 hours ago, Distressedmamma said:

Not sure why you're trying to convince me that not having a licence gives you just as many options. People with a licence have all those same options that you have, plus the option of driving their own vehicle.

 

I'm talking camping and long driving trips. I dont like being a tourist... the freedom of driving to wherever you want to explore without a plan/schedule. Get your car bogged in sandhills etc are all adventures that are something you miss out on if you don't have a licence. 

 

I've already said.. my own personal opinion is that dating someone without a licence would be a no deal for me. I can't share a long driving trip with someone who has no licence.  I'm sure I'm not alone in my opinion.

Clearly city living means you don't get the country 'lifestyle'. 

I also live right by the coast and I take the train nearly every week with all the kids (my husband does it mostly!) because we only have one car, my husband works away in London and that’s it - no car for me for a whole week at a time.

 

I adore having the the option to drive! I pack a whole double buggy, all the stuff you take with two small kids and a one year old baby (this is very difficult on a train… try squeezing a double buggy with ride on easily whilst everyone is pushing and clambering!) and just take off whenever I want, anytime, to see friends or family, and the kids have a nap in the back. It can be 8am or 9pm it doesn’t matter.

 

I use public transport almost weekly with being so close to the train and my husband having the car most weeks. Would I say to people they don’t need a drivers license and it doesn’t matter? Definitely not! It’s an absolutely major life skill! Just like cooking, first aid - all of that. It can only be a positive.

 

I have never heard of a woman rejecting a guy because he has a license and owns a car. On here, another commenter at least and myself included, would be massively put off if our partner couldn’t drive. What is there to lose by learning? I don’t get it! 
 

I can take trains - I can drive as well - surely that is a great thing.

 

Both the OP and Canartic are struggling in love, can’t drive but say it doesn’t matter, but have women on here saying it does, and other people saying it is a good useful thing. The OP is asking for a girlfriend I take it, not a hook up. A girlfriend will generally care about a whole lot more than a casual hook up would. They won’t care if you drive, have a job, have an apartment. A girlfriend? She will be looking for more. Why limit your options with women when you are already struggling and write off people like me? (LOL! Look, I know you wouldn’t want to date me, I’m saying women like me or who have similar preferences). If you have it worked out with the ladies, why bother arguing about it? We are just saying hey, x y and z are attractive to us! Take it or leave it, Y’know? 
 

x

[mylolita]

I put that a girlfriend is looking at a “whole package” so all this helps. Appearance, attitude, skills, job, apartment, education, financial situation. 
 

If you struggle attracting women, you need to make sure you can broaden your appeal I would imagine as much as you can, not limit it. 
 

Women who go for jobless deadbeats and have loads of kids to different guys aren’t the type of women who are choosey and not the type of woman I imagine a nice, normal guy looking for a nice girlfriend would go for.

 

You want to attract a quality woman. You can sit and wait and carry on doing what you are doing or you can make some more changes and see what happens.

 

What I find important in a guy is obviously not what all women find important. I find it important that a man can physically handle himself and isn’t a push over. Some women even find that kind of quality unattractive, or even maybe dangerous and unappealing. I’m not saying each women’s individual preference is going to suit every guy. 


To answer your question, as animals, we size people up almost instantly. Before they even say anything! There have been many many a psychological study on this. We make all kinds of assumptions, everyone does, some people more than other but it is an animalistic left over survival trait humans have. Men do it to other men as well, women to other women. We have social hierarchies as well, just like other animals. There is a pecking order. Put a whole bunch of men in a room, and it won’t matter how much they earn or how many degrees they have, a dominant man will come forward and naturally lead those other men. They aren’t always physically the biggest either. The same applies for women. Have a bunch of women work together or live together for a long period, and all the other womens menstral cycles will synch with the most dominant woman’s menstrual cycle. This happens with primates also in the natural world.  I mean, it’s not just Jordan Peterson who is a Harvard psychologist and best selling author who talks about this - there are absolutely countless studies to go on and research. If you think people just need to talk to you and  don’t judge one bit across a room - I would say, I am sorry, you are quite naive I’m afraid! 
 

We all have different talents, different natural attributes. My husband for example, is an extremely confident guy. You tell him he can’t do something and he’s gonna prove you wrong. He doesn’t fear rejection, doesn’t think anyone is too good for him - he would ask out women no matter how beautiful they were, and he got them too! He runs his own business, is self made. There is no way he would be on an advice forum! The concept of that is alien to him. He wouldn’t get it. His take on advice is going to shoot pool with his friends and bouncing some ideas off them. But! He can’t dancer for s**t! And you can dance! He wouldn’t know the first thing about dancing, or how too - and he wouldn’t be able to do it either. It doesn’t come natural to him, but talking to and appealing to women does come naturally to him. Dancing is a natural gift for you, something you are good at. Sometimes, we have to work at things we don’t have a natural ability for. If your appearance is not as attractive as some other men, you may have to work harder and branch out, try different avenues, try different approaches.
 

You can try things, see if they work. That’s all anyone can do in life. You can’t say it won’t work until you try.
 

I don’t get the negative backlash at the suggestion of getting a drivers license - not sure what is so terrible about being able to drive, or that somehow if you got your license you would be chained to the wheel and never use ya legs again but, I think I’m living in a much more traditional world here the more I read this thread! 

 

Like @tattoobunnieI think I have made my suggestions, useful or not, is up to the OP - and, I tap out - LOL! 
 

I also wish you the best of luck OP. 
 

x

[Mammalyssa]

I agree with mylolita. Psychology says people make a judgement on somebody within 3 seconds of meeting them (or seeing a photo). There's an element of physical attraction.. but when i tried out tinder previously if I saw a bulked gym photo of a guy I wasnt interested. Which is funny because I enjoy the gym and being active and fit... but I can't stand the self obsessed men that spend every minute there and take photos of themselves all jacked up. To me it says they're rather self obsessed. I've never taken a photo inside a gym. I've also swiped left on people who have hunting photos, because I can't stand the macho display of dead animal. I think people should hunt for food, not sport. And I always swipe left on people with fishing or nightclub photos. 

None of that is to do with their looks at all, but rather the instant knowledge that our interests would make us incompatible. 

A picture tells a thousand words. If your picture was of you dancing a salsa or something I'd say it makes your masculinity seem slightly less (nothing wrong with that, it's appealing to some and not to others). A passport style photo is usually not appealing as it lacks imagination and might portray boring.  Pictures of people with a dog is always known as getting way more attention... so yeah. I'd be checking the fine details like that too.

[Batya33]

9 hours ago, Distressedmamma said:

Not sure why you're trying to convince me that not having a licence gives you just as many options. People with a licence have all those same options that you have, plus the option of driving their own vehicle.

 

I'm talking camping and long driving trips. I dont like being a tourist... the freedom of driving to wherever you want to explore without a plan/schedule. Get your car bogged in sandhills etc are all adventures that are something you miss out on if you don't have a licence. 

 

I've already said.. my own personal opinion is that dating someone without a licence would be a no deal for me. I can't share a long driving trip with someone who has no licence.  I'm sure I'm not alone in my opinion.

Clearly city living means you don't get the country 'lifestyle'. 

We can agree to disagree - you don’t know what I get or do not - just pointing out that not being able to operate a cruise ship or plane or train or being too young or too old for a license doesn’t limit travel options either. I’ll continue to explore the world including many country sides and rural areas with my family and if I have to drive I will use the license I have for emergency reasons. Which is the main reason I achieved it at age 49. Was so hard !

What an interesting discussion! I know for sure not having a license would be a deal breaker in certain areas of the world. Just like I wouldn’t have chosen to date a man who insisted on never using public transportation and taking taxis or driving everywhere in the city. Without a really good reason like PTSD of course.

OP - yes if you do want to eventually live a country or suburban lifestyle I suggest telling your dates you like you’d be open to that and open to driving. I had to get a license despite not really using it yet. It’s always good to show flexibility IMO as long as it’s genuine.

I had to agree to leave my city of 39 years when my husband and I started dating because for his career I have to be very geographically flexible.
And he had to risk my age being too old to conceive or conceive easily. we each had to promise this as going back on it or backpedaling would of corise have been wrong.
Maybe consider whether you do need to tweak what you’re willing to sacrifice or do to have a long term relationship. Good luck. 
 

[Wiseman2]

13 hours ago, Distressedmamma said:

Put it this way... someone with no licence can basically never leave the city 

Yes. This is my point precisely. Not everyone who lives in the city needs to own a car, but without even a driver's license you can't rent a car for any reason.

You can't rent a car for the day or an errand or a weekend or a truck to move or anything. It's a huge disadvantage. Like being under 18 and not being "allowed" to do something.

So the argument about "I don't need a car" is moot. It's about the licence. It's about forced dependence on others when there's no need and being freer and more responsible.

[Batya33]

31 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

So the argument about "I don't need a car" is moot. It's about the licence. It's about forced dependence on others when there's no need and being freer and more responsible.

That's how I felt about people who refused to walk places or use public transportation -then we were forced to accommodate by spending $ on taxis and being stuck in traffic. Or making a plan so that they would be able to use their car.  

About people who lived in the burbs who refused to come into the city because driving in was not a practical option and refused to take a commuter train. I went by commuter train all the time to visit friends in the burbs. They offered to pick me up at the nearby station but otherwise I was fine with a car service. No dependence.

Once I lived in a city and had a child I knew I had to get a license.  Distressedmama said without a license you can't leave a city and travel and have adventures so that was separate from "forced dependence" and I responded to that. 

It's only forced dependence if a car is needed for what the person needs to do.  Where I grew up you could do everything you needed to do without depending on a car for transportation. It was a true novelty when I grew up and went to visit friends in the burbs and we would drive to a grocery store and put groceries in a car and drive back even if it was a 3 minute drive.  Not good or bad just not my world with walking 8 blocks to the market with a shopping cart if needed then walking back. 

 

I do think it's unfair not to attempt to get a license if not having one will result in forced dependence -I do think couples reciprocate though.  So if the person who can't drive/won't drive but needs to be driven regularly to places is also the person who does all the cooking/cleaning/arranging for house maintenance or DIY then that could be a fair tradeoff.  

I don't think people who drive are chained to their cars.  I do find that some get way too accustomed to choosing driving over walking.  I believe I am in better shape physically because I  choose walking even if someone were to offer to pick me up (I wouldn't ask).  

Ironically in the thread about the BF who wouldn't get up early to drive GF to the airport there were loud protestations about how she should be able to depend on him for a ride to the aiport (last I checked one could drive oneself and park/take lyft/arrange for a rental) - so that sort of "forced dependence" (I wrote I'd never have asked -my husband commented to me he knew I never would have asked him) - was seen as totally fine related to a refusal to drive oneself or an alternative.